AFTER TIFFIE
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AFTER TIFFIE
I want to start a discussion among those better informed than I am about why we couldn't begin the long process of producing a British successor to the Typhoon. What would we want? Can we do it? (France did) What are our thoughts?
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British manufacturers have learnt the hard way that building a 100% British aircraft is a certain way to cancellation - it's only the international treaties and agreements that protect you from the Treasury..........
NO CHANCE
Because the market size we'd need, versus the market size for a collaborative project is vastly smaller. This would make unit costs unaffordable and reduce export sales as people would be reluctant to buy into something which has few customers.
We'd be better going joint, we will go joint and the chances of any country other than china or india ever solo developing a jet fighter again are close to zero.
We'd be better going joint, we will go joint and the chances of any country other than china or india ever solo developing a jet fighter again are close to zero.
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...or of course the most likely to go it alone in the future, the United States. India's attempt at an indigenous fighter is akin to that time Homer Simpson designed a car.
?
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How the hell did this country get into this state ?, in the early years we had led the world in aviation research, development and production with sales of our kit all over the world, though not in great numbers but we were surviving and in general we had what we wanted apart from the airlines with their quirks and politicians with no idea what they were on about, who basically sold out this industry.
Why are we now resigned to be a nation of fast food workers, domestic servants and care workers in the service industry.
When i joined the Royal Air Force in the seventies there were so many British a/c in service that were excellent assets with last one that entered service the Hawk a world beater, so good even the US bought it, then came the 'collaberation projects' where basically to join we had to shut down all of our factories, smash all the jigs and equipment and sell the actual companies to any joker with a wad in their pockets.
We then end up with buying items from outside the UK that when we get them we can't use, such as the tranche of Chinooks that sat in the hangar as they were not up to our spec or the initial fleet of C 17 that we obtained from Boeing, who dictated how many hours we were 'allowed' to fly and the latest with the aquisition of Airbus and voyager through PFI initiative, where things seem to be hotting up in the east with Ukraine and what happens then a fifth of the transport/refueler fleet is off to Thomas Cook Airlines to fly holiday makers all over the world, or the F35 that we bought with no arming codes, basically allowing the US government to decide if we could mount an operation such as the Falkland campaign outside of NATO control, how does that happen ?
Now the government say we need to do more engineering and be exporting said projects, what said items !!, carrier bags, supermarket trolleys etc.
Surely rather than spending billions of paying benefits to the engineering workers to sit on their backsides as the jobs have been ripped from under them and other people who could train, why not invest in not only the aviation industry but shipbuilding and other defence companies to restart the prodution of our own equipment and use that highly experienced core of workers that are twiddling their thumbs at this time .
Possibly i'm being a bit symplistic, but there may be an initial outlay costs, but if we could produce the world class kit we have always done on our own for not only our own needs but export as well, i think we are too late to get back into comercial aviation, but who knows if the defence side goes well for these companies they may develop into other areas.
The only thing is though, these companies have to be left alone, without politicians changing their minds after the initial requirement is given by an expert group who have come up with the final requirement prior to ordering and keeping out the greedy fat cats who want a piece of the action for themselves adding to the costs.
In time, these industries would grow into productive companies again and not only contribute to the coffers by being a british tax paying company rather than a foreign company evading taxes etc, but the more support they are given the greater the rewards will be and this would not only reduce the benefits bill out but and reduce unemployment but bring in money into the uk economy via sales abroad where some of that revenue could be reinvested to stop the present self perpetuating circle of losses - redundancies - unemployment - benefits and so on.
as i say, just a symplistic view from a normal simple man, how hard could it be ?, heres to the future, rosey tinted glasses off heres hoping.
Why are we now resigned to be a nation of fast food workers, domestic servants and care workers in the service industry.
When i joined the Royal Air Force in the seventies there were so many British a/c in service that were excellent assets with last one that entered service the Hawk a world beater, so good even the US bought it, then came the 'collaberation projects' where basically to join we had to shut down all of our factories, smash all the jigs and equipment and sell the actual companies to any joker with a wad in their pockets.
We then end up with buying items from outside the UK that when we get them we can't use, such as the tranche of Chinooks that sat in the hangar as they were not up to our spec or the initial fleet of C 17 that we obtained from Boeing, who dictated how many hours we were 'allowed' to fly and the latest with the aquisition of Airbus and voyager through PFI initiative, where things seem to be hotting up in the east with Ukraine and what happens then a fifth of the transport/refueler fleet is off to Thomas Cook Airlines to fly holiday makers all over the world, or the F35 that we bought with no arming codes, basically allowing the US government to decide if we could mount an operation such as the Falkland campaign outside of NATO control, how does that happen ?
Now the government say we need to do more engineering and be exporting said projects, what said items !!, carrier bags, supermarket trolleys etc.
Surely rather than spending billions of paying benefits to the engineering workers to sit on their backsides as the jobs have been ripped from under them and other people who could train, why not invest in not only the aviation industry but shipbuilding and other defence companies to restart the prodution of our own equipment and use that highly experienced core of workers that are twiddling their thumbs at this time .
Possibly i'm being a bit symplistic, but there may be an initial outlay costs, but if we could produce the world class kit we have always done on our own for not only our own needs but export as well, i think we are too late to get back into comercial aviation, but who knows if the defence side goes well for these companies they may develop into other areas.
The only thing is though, these companies have to be left alone, without politicians changing their minds after the initial requirement is given by an expert group who have come up with the final requirement prior to ordering and keeping out the greedy fat cats who want a piece of the action for themselves adding to the costs.
In time, these industries would grow into productive companies again and not only contribute to the coffers by being a british tax paying company rather than a foreign company evading taxes etc, but the more support they are given the greater the rewards will be and this would not only reduce the benefits bill out but and reduce unemployment but bring in money into the uk economy via sales abroad where some of that revenue could be reinvested to stop the present self perpetuating circle of losses - redundancies - unemployment - benefits and so on.
as i say, just a symplistic view from a normal simple man, how hard could it be ?, heres to the future, rosey tinted glasses off heres hoping.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The only thing is though, these companies have to be left alone, without politicians changing their minds after the initial requirement is given by an expert group who have come up with the final requirement prior to ordering and keeping out the greedy fat cats who want a piece of the action for themselves adding to the costs.
I can't help thinking that there are some rose tinted glasses about our history of aircraft building. Empire of the Clouds looks at it in part - gross company mismanagement and waste feature.
There have been some pretty sh!te aircraft from the British Aircraft Industry as well. Here are some that spring to mind:
- BE9. This had the pilot in the back, then the engine and propeller and then a gunner/observer in the front. Hugh Dowding later mentioned it was probably one of the most dangerous aircraft he ever saw.
- Boulton Paul Defiant. Awful day fighter. Got hammered once the Luftwaffe worked out it had no forward firing capability.
- Blackburn Roc. Again an awful fleet defence aircraft like the Defiant with no forward firing guns. Apparently the guns didn't fire properly when the aircraft was turning.
- Fairey Battle. Hopelessly outclassed at the start of the war. We lost over 100 in a week and sadly aircrew we so desperately could have used in the Battle of Britain.
There are many more. In recent years there has been Nimrod AEW, Harrier GR5 (needed upgrading to go to war), Nimrod MRA4, TSR2, Tornado F2, Mantis, Herti and others; so for every successful aircraft there were probably half a dozen failures - not good for sustainable business, which is why so many are no longer with us.
B Word
Stanley Hooker, chief engineer of the Bristol Aeroplane Company's engine division, believed the "Bristol lunch" to be symptomatic of all that was going wrong with the industry. This meal, he said, was the "biggest obstacle to Bristol's progress". How so? "In each factory, the top man had his own little private dining room. We would start with hot canapés while we partook of sherry. Then we would sit down to a multi-course lunch ending with cheese, fruit and coffee – and, on occasion, brandy." Management of the school of Terry-Thomas proved, far too often, to be little more than a "shower", tucking into club-like luncheons while the industry fell to earth around them.
- BE9. This had the pilot in the back, then the engine and propeller and then a gunner/observer in the front. Hugh Dowding later mentioned it was probably one of the most dangerous aircraft he ever saw.
- Boulton Paul Defiant. Awful day fighter. Got hammered once the Luftwaffe worked out it had no forward firing capability.
- Blackburn Roc. Again an awful fleet defence aircraft like the Defiant with no forward firing guns. Apparently the guns didn't fire properly when the aircraft was turning.
- Fairey Battle. Hopelessly outclassed at the start of the war. We lost over 100 in a week and sadly aircrew we so desperately could have used in the Battle of Britain.
There are many more. In recent years there has been Nimrod AEW, Harrier GR5 (needed upgrading to go to war), Nimrod MRA4, TSR2, Tornado F2, Mantis, Herti and others; so for every successful aircraft there were probably half a dozen failures - not good for sustainable business, which is why so many are no longer with us.
B Word
Last edited by The B Word; 12th Sep 2015 at 08:38.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Tiffie, just to annoy those that don't drink Typhoon at Tiffin.
Anyway, tiffie is easier to say than Typhoon. Bit like Spit, Hurri, and Lanc
Anyway, tiffie is easier to say than Typhoon. Bit like Spit, Hurri, and Lanc
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AFTER TIFFIE
No-one who actually has anything to do with the Typhoon calls it Tiffie, Beags. You know, I'm not sure we have a "Tonka/jag" style nickname.