Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.
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Yes, you're right, he was well known for his humanitarian approach to his and other nation's people.
since you like links so much here's one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
since you like links so much here's one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_103
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Surplus, the choice in Libya was Gaddafi or terrorists. We now have a situation where IS and other groups can thrive in Libya. At least one could sit down and deal with Gaddafi. Libya was so safe you could visit as a tourist. I would not want to be doing that these days!
Another broken nation thanks to the west. The west wanted to do the same in Syria handing the entire nation to terrorists like IS.
Another broken nation thanks to the west. The west wanted to do the same in Syria handing the entire nation to terrorists like IS.
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I guess that the difference between you and I is that I wouldn't have gone to Libya when he was in charge, I suspect that with your views, you'd have been made very welcome. I wouldn't like to see you outed, but you're not George Galloway are you?
I apologise for hogging the thread with my new friend.
I apologise for hogging the thread with my new friend.
...three (presumably Fleet Air Arm) helos embarked in HMS Bulwark plus a couple of Border Force patrol vessels:
..."What we are dealing with here is a real tragedy in the Mediterranean. Today's meeting has got to be about saving lives. Now saving lives means rescuing these poor people, but it also means smashing the gangs and stabilising the region. Now Britain, as ever, will help.
We'll use our aid budget to help stabilise neighbouring countries. And as the country in Europe with the biggest defence budget, we can make a real contribution.
I'll be offering the Royal Navy Flagship, HMS Bulwark, with three helicopters and two other border patrol ships, which will be able to help with these operations."
Cameron stresses that people will be taken to the nearest port - likely Italy - and would not be given recourse to asylum in the UK.
"When these tragedies happen, Britain is always there - and this time is no exception"...
Originally Posted by Daily Telegraph 23 Apr 2015
..."What we are dealing with here is a real tragedy in the Mediterranean. Today's meeting has got to be about saving lives. Now saving lives means rescuing these poor people, but it also means smashing the gangs and stabilising the region. Now Britain, as ever, will help.
We'll use our aid budget to help stabilise neighbouring countries. And as the country in Europe with the biggest defence budget, we can make a real contribution.
I'll be offering the Royal Navy Flagship, HMS Bulwark, with three helicopters and two other border patrol ships, which will be able to help with these operations."
Cameron stresses that people will be taken to the nearest port - likely Italy - and would not be given recourse to asylum in the UK.
"When these tragedies happen, Britain is always there - and this time is no exception"...
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Strange set up with the force being sent?
I understand Bulwark. Its the only asset remaining, with Albion being withdrawn. Is Ocean available?
Bulwark has no hangar, an important point here if the operation is to last the summer, and not just up to the UK election.
I don't understand the Border Force vessel concept in this role here, someone explain to me. The Wiki blurb says they are coastal cutters, manned by civilians and are part of the Home Office.
Are they used to operating as part of a military force? I never worked with them. Learn as they go along?
I would have sent a T45 to escort Bulwark, and they have the ability to embark up to 50 RM as I recall, can launch and operate 2 x FRC, can operate up to size Merlin, spare deck....
I would back up with a Bay Class RFA as well- we still have 3, are spare deck, have big tank hold and dock, lots of room inside.
Element of high risk to our service people with this - this area is now active with AQ and more. They will be exposed to trap and ambush as they investigate these boats and people.
The absolute desperation of the poor souls fleeing the many war zones shouldn't be underestimated either.
Pass the financial cost into the EU pot-everyone should put in on this one.
HS.
The BBC report said the people involved are fleeing from Nigeria, Syria, Ethiopia and Somalia.
Bulwark has no hangar, an important point here if the operation is to last the summer, and not just up to the UK election.
I don't understand the Border Force vessel concept in this role here, someone explain to me. The Wiki blurb says they are coastal cutters, manned by civilians and are part of the Home Office.
Are they used to operating as part of a military force? I never worked with them. Learn as they go along?
I would have sent a T45 to escort Bulwark, and they have the ability to embark up to 50 RM as I recall, can launch and operate 2 x FRC, can operate up to size Merlin, spare deck....
I would back up with a Bay Class RFA as well- we still have 3, are spare deck, have big tank hold and dock, lots of room inside.
Element of high risk to our service people with this - this area is now active with AQ and more. They will be exposed to trap and ambush as they investigate these boats and people.
The absolute desperation of the poor souls fleeing the many war zones shouldn't be underestimated either.
Pass the financial cost into the EU pot-everyone should put in on this one.
HS.
The BBC report said the people involved are fleeing from Nigeria, Syria, Ethiopia and Somalia.
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Not be kidded.
This is just a tiny sticking plaster, its for the cameras, the polls and the vanity of the politicians. Cameron...where to start?...airheaded and shallow doesn't do him justice.
The question is how to keep these poor people in their own countries in the first place, and for that nobody seems to be leading at all.
I would pay them money to return - at least double or treble what it cost them to reach the departure ports in the first place, and I would ensure a safe passage return.
Italy has asked permission from the EU to sink pirate boats in port, before they depart.
Establish a safe zone (for arriving refugees, and guarded or set up by EU military) onshore Libya will probably be put on the table, but that will be very fraught and risky I would imagine.
The question is how to keep these poor people in their own countries in the first place, and for that nobody seems to be leading at all.
I would pay them money to return - at least double or treble what it cost them to reach the departure ports in the first place, and I would ensure a safe passage return.
Italy has asked permission from the EU to sink pirate boats in port, before they depart.
Establish a safe zone (for arriving refugees, and guarded or set up by EU military) onshore Libya will probably be put on the table, but that will be very fraught and risky I would imagine.
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Hangarshuffle
It was tried by Australia with the Sri Lankan economic refugees, they were given money to go back and a civvie aircraft was chartered to take them back. It was stopped when the same people were caught a few weeks later back on a boat repeating the trip just for the money. They got off the aircraft and straight onto another boat.
I would pay them money to return - at least double or treble what it cost them to reach the departure ports in the first place, and I would ensure a safe passage return.
Originally Posted by Hangarshuffle
...Is Ocean available?...
Originally Posted by The Independent 10 Apr 2015
...Scores of ships and aircraft from 13 countries will take part in war games, in an unprecedented show of military strength. The Nato exercises off Scotland involve at least 55 warships, 70 aircraft and 13,000 sailors and will include submarine hunts, amphibious landings and ship against ship attacks.
They take place against a background of rising concern about Russian expansionism but the Ministry of Defence said the Exercise Joint Warrior war games are a twice-yearly exercise rather than a response to any specific threat. However, the Joint Warrior exercises are the biggest yet held by Nato and are intended to act as a show of strength while honing the ability of member nations to co-operate in the event of an attack...
HMS Ocean, which in June will become the Navy’s Fleet Flagship [vice HMS BULWARK], has just completed a refit and is expected to join the exercise...
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Sadly, we're not likely to get anything resembling sensible policy right now from the government -or the opposition for that matter. Thanks to the millions of migrants rolled in by Mr Blair, immigration is such a toxic issue that even taking a few hundred of the most desperate refugees is off the table. I'm glad I'm not the Captain of HMS Bulwark!
Originally Posted by ShotOne
...I'm glad I'm not the Captain of HMS Bulwark!
Any ideas whose supplying the rotary winged element? Commando Force still working up on the HC.3, Merlin HM force just back from Sierra Leone... three Whirlwinds dragged out from the FAAM, perchance? Or 771 being tasked with the job as it's mainly SAR?
Originally Posted by Martin the Martian
Any ideas whose supplying the rotary winged element?
Originally Posted by RN website 24 Apr 2015
HMS Bulwark, three Merlin MK2 helicopters and two civilian border patrol boats will deploy in light of recent tragedies...
Originally Posted by RN website
The Merlin Mk2 is already in the thick of major naval exercises with 820, 824 and 829 Naval Air Squadrons and 820 Naval Air Squadron will soon deploy with the UK’s Response Force Task Group...
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Not saying I told you so but I knew this day would come eventually. Like the perfect storm of famine, war, political turmoil, energy resource war, fundamental religion, intolerance and much more has settled over large areas of the earth and people want to escape it and come to relatively calm and wealthy Europe.
I can only see it continuing (this current exodus) for many more years to come, which perhaps makes the RNs recent tasking what? Unsustainable? Gloomy end piece but anyway good luck lads and lasses RN.
I can only see it continuing (this current exodus) for many more years to come, which perhaps makes the RNs recent tasking what? Unsustainable? Gloomy end piece but anyway good luck lads and lasses RN.
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HMS Bulwark already rescued 400 people.
Was on C4 news tonight with MOD footage. Already picked up 400 people. Bulwark has been doing this already for over a week and was on task in something like 5 days from sailing Devonport.
A tremendous reflection on the Captain, ship and people involved.
But I feel for the poor people picked up. Unloved and unwanted. Even the way the bootnecks were tossing the lifejackets at them seemed to indicate it, somehow. What the future for the refugee, if they even have one?
A tremendous reflection on the Captain, ship and people involved.
But I feel for the poor people picked up. Unloved and unwanted. Even the way the bootnecks were tossing the lifejackets at them seemed to indicate it, somehow. What the future for the refugee, if they even have one?
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Incredible mission creep..
BBc are reporting tonight the mission is now increasing somewhat...RN will now be looking to carry out search and destroy missions of the boats used to transport the refugees. Presumably this is along the south med coastline, in harbour, in Commando raids.
Did I hear it right? I've had a few pints.
They are all making it up as they go along. Once again UK forces are deployed into combat (which it is, no matter how you split it) and the matter is hardly even debated in Parliament.
I will try and find a source, unless someone can help me.?
This is on the radio news now, sort of slotted in at half time in the Chelsea/West Brom game somewhere in a story about the NHS and some other dross.
Did I hear it right? I've had a few pints.
They are all making it up as they go along. Once again UK forces are deployed into combat (which it is, no matter how you split it) and the matter is hardly even debated in Parliament.
I will try and find a source, unless someone can help me.?
This is on the radio news now, sort of slotted in at half time in the Chelsea/West Brom game somewhere in a story about the NHS and some other dross.
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Yea, sources leaking..
UK to offer drones to help combat people-smugglers in Libya | World news | The Guardian
They must have been spooked. RFA Lyme Bay+ more helicopters/drones. etc.
Basically its moving to a more defensive "war on boats" rather than a humanitarian rescue force for the refugees.
Some on prune will be creaming their knicks at this but to me, its just sad, the West turning their guns yet again on the unarmed and hopeless and helpless.
They must have been spooked. RFA Lyme Bay+ more helicopters/drones. etc.
Basically its moving to a more defensive "war on boats" rather than a humanitarian rescue force for the refugees.
Some on prune will be creaming their knicks at this but to me, its just sad, the West turning their guns yet again on the unarmed and hopeless and helpless.
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Latest news is approx 400,000 are waiting to get across
Half a million refugees gather in Libya to attempt perilous crossing to Europe | World news | The Guardian
Up to half a million (yes I looked twice as well) refugees now waiting to cross the Med and invade Europe. Going to be the crisis of the Summer.
Well, bombing the blazes out of North Africa doesn't look such a good idea now.But we are where we are (through mismanagement and poor overall strategy, hand wringers and do-gooders).
Royal Navy (what remains of its small rump, and that is Bulwark) seem to be totally overtaken by events here, and have simply become a ferry service for the refs. (who are instructed by their smugglers to sink their boats on sight of the RN to guarantee a pick up).
There was talk of sending in commandos to destroy all small boats along the coast of North Africa...hmmmm hasn't happened yet and not sure this can work without destroying the livelihood of many fisherman and genuine tab/drug smugglers etc.
We continue have a lawless coast/state right on the coast of southern Europe robustly pushing hundreds of thousands our way and none of the clever whities have a single solution how to really solve it.
Using the UK's RN so robustly (yet again in a fringe Europe land problem, see Bosnia,Kosovo,Libya,Beirut/Lebanon and many more) should be leverage for Cameron in his negotiation with Merkel over the UKs overall contribution to the EU-where's Germanys assault ship? .
Anyway, crack on you clever 100 odd well paid Admirals on the payroll with the one ship to play with on this one.
* Actually, considering Pruners normally pretty sensible approach to problems as a whole, if I were a minister or an Admiral reading this thread this morning how about considering (a) the PM unilaterally withdraws part of the UKs EU funding contribution (which is apparently something in the region of between 9 and 11 billion GBP for FY2015-16 depending on what and where you read or believe). (b) Use that money to (1) partially re-float part of the RN (HMS Albion and fund more capable vessels) and fund RN interdiction operations (2) Use the remainder to establish safe camps in North Africa for the genuine refugees (this is difficult I concede totally) (3) But vigorously maintain patrols along the Med. coastline to prevent further incursion by the refugees. (4) Pay some local warlords to get on side with us to "help".
Expensive but I think this would bring our PM some genuine support and be a practical sticking plaster solution over the Summer).
An absolute nightmare for UK forces of course, and potentially bloody and unpleasant as well.
Up to half a million (yes I looked twice as well) refugees now waiting to cross the Med and invade Europe. Going to be the crisis of the Summer.
Well, bombing the blazes out of North Africa doesn't look such a good idea now.But we are where we are (through mismanagement and poor overall strategy, hand wringers and do-gooders).
Royal Navy (what remains of its small rump, and that is Bulwark) seem to be totally overtaken by events here, and have simply become a ferry service for the refs. (who are instructed by their smugglers to sink their boats on sight of the RN to guarantee a pick up).
There was talk of sending in commandos to destroy all small boats along the coast of North Africa...hmmmm hasn't happened yet and not sure this can work without destroying the livelihood of many fisherman and genuine tab/drug smugglers etc.
We continue have a lawless coast/state right on the coast of southern Europe robustly pushing hundreds of thousands our way and none of the clever whities have a single solution how to really solve it.
Using the UK's RN so robustly (yet again in a fringe Europe land problem, see Bosnia,Kosovo,Libya,Beirut/Lebanon and many more) should be leverage for Cameron in his negotiation with Merkel over the UKs overall contribution to the EU-where's Germanys assault ship? .
Anyway, crack on you clever 100 odd well paid Admirals on the payroll with the one ship to play with on this one.
* Actually, considering Pruners normally pretty sensible approach to problems as a whole, if I were a minister or an Admiral reading this thread this morning how about considering (a) the PM unilaterally withdraws part of the UKs EU funding contribution (which is apparently something in the region of between 9 and 11 billion GBP for FY2015-16 depending on what and where you read or believe). (b) Use that money to (1) partially re-float part of the RN (HMS Albion and fund more capable vessels) and fund RN interdiction operations (2) Use the remainder to establish safe camps in North Africa for the genuine refugees (this is difficult I concede totally) (3) But vigorously maintain patrols along the Med. coastline to prevent further incursion by the refugees. (4) Pay some local warlords to get on side with us to "help".
Expensive but I think this would bring our PM some genuine support and be a practical sticking plaster solution over the Summer).
An absolute nightmare for UK forces of course, and potentially bloody and unpleasant as well.
Last edited by Hangarshuffle; 7th Jun 2015 at 07:12.
Hit'sanitemare
24 April -
I believe the Principal Duty of a Principle Warfare Officer is to Dessimate the Henemy.
Perhaps we need to introduce a new specialization of Principle Welfare Officer because this isn't going to go away, and I can't see shooting solving the problem.
........ LFH
He's a Lynx observer (also a Principle Warfare Officer rather than a Principal Warfare Officer).
Perhaps we need to introduce a new specialization of Principle Welfare Officer because this isn't going to go away, and I can't see shooting solving the problem.
........ LFH
Last edited by Lordflasheart; 7th Jun 2015 at 09:01.