Taliban declares defeat of NATO
Why so surprised? Why? Crikey, it was inevitable that we were never going to "win" - we knew that going in in spades back in '06. Unless we deployed in our hundreds of thousands, without restrictive ROE, and without the media on our case - along with a coherent, joined up and intelligent political strategy for the long term - it was always going to be this way. The Army deployed for 6 month spells, each Brigade Cdr with his own 'vision' (of how to win a DSO and how to protect the Army), each subaltern determined to win the MC: the RAF for less and in far fewer numbers (of platforms) to mean anything. The RN (not inc Royal) where they could...
This is in no way meant to belittle anything or anyone - there were clearly amazing individual and collective actions on the battlefield, in the skies and in places like the Role 3, DFAC, etc.
But I'm afraid that politics - real and inter-service - made this unwinable. We lost.
This is in no way meant to belittle anything or anyone - there were clearly amazing individual and collective actions on the battlefield, in the skies and in places like the Role 3, DFAC, etc.
But I'm afraid that politics - real and inter-service - made this unwinable. We lost.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Last man standing is how it is.
As Roger says, proper coherence and a permanent occupation.
As Roger says, proper coherence and a permanent occupation.
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Sadly, from their viewpoint, they did.
As in Vietnam and other conflicts, 'we' were defeated from within, with our media and plethora of do-gooders.
You can't win without the political will and support.
RIP all those and NoK who bear the scars and loss.
As in Vietnam and other conflicts, 'we' were defeated from within, with our media and plethora of do-gooders.
You can't win without the political will and support.
RIP all those and NoK who bear the scars and loss.
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If you stop to think about it, we didn't "win" in Korea, we merely stopped them. The Americans certainly didn't win in Vietnam - and that was very predictable to us at the time. We were never going to win in Afghanistan or Iraq. And let me see .... precisely what did our little expedition in Libya achieve? We need to keep out of America's adventures, they are not ours. We have these islands to defend, our seaways to defend and our Old Commonwealth to assist. And that's about it. Oh - and as far as I can see, we can't even convincingly defend these islands with the kit we've got.
In 2002, I was asked to give a guest lesson at school to the Religious Studies crowd on 'The Just War'. Unsurprisingly, I was asked about Afghanistan. I directed them to go speak to the Assistant Bursar, late Royal Anglian Regiment. The chat itself was unnecessary, for hanging on the wall behind his desk was
"The last stand of the survivors of Her Majesty's 44th Foot at Gandamak"
"The last stand of the survivors of Her Majesty's 44th Foot at Gandamak"
Mate, they're not just "America's adventures" - that is a very naive view: we (the Brits) galloped in wholeheartedly, just without (over time) the popular support of the nation and without the financial support required to be a world class power. Show me a squaddie (or Crab, or Matelot) who wasn't a bit excited about going to war. Or a politician who wasn't filled with reflected glory when committing the Forces.
Let's be honest - after 9/11, if we hadn't supported our closet ally to the hilt, how would 95%+ of us in the military have felt, watching the action from the sidelines? And how marginalised and insignificant would our Nation be now, in 2014/15, I wonder?
Again, in the name of honesty, let's speak truthfully. I fecking loved deploying to Afghan (on the ground and in the air): it was hyper exciting, thrilling and terrifying in equal measure. And as tragic as it was for some (seen at very close hand), I 'knew' it would never be my turn, and I loved it the more for it. But I, and all of us, knew it was for naught. But we went anyway. Because we love adventure.
And the UK Pollies who sit in a chair for perhaps 5 years love it too, be it Labour or Tory.
And what does that say about us all?
Let's be honest - after 9/11, if we hadn't supported our closet ally to the hilt, how would 95%+ of us in the military have felt, watching the action from the sidelines? And how marginalised and insignificant would our Nation be now, in 2014/15, I wonder?
Again, in the name of honesty, let's speak truthfully. I fecking loved deploying to Afghan (on the ground and in the air): it was hyper exciting, thrilling and terrifying in equal measure. And as tragic as it was for some (seen at very close hand), I 'knew' it would never be my turn, and I loved it the more for it. But I, and all of us, knew it was for naught. But we went anyway. Because we love adventure.
And the UK Pollies who sit in a chair for perhaps 5 years love it too, be it Labour or Tory.
And what does that say about us all?
A Taliban win? Complete and utter tosh, people, believe what you will...
My bold and underline added in this recent press release:
ISAF has transitioned to Op RESOLUTE SUPPORT from its previous mission. ISAF’s original mandate was to assist the newly-established Afghan Transitional Authority in and around Kabul. The scope and scale of ISAF’s mission grew as the Coalition added Provincial Reconstruction Teams and took on the responsibility to provide security while Afghan security forces were growing in strength. A critical function throughout the effort was the mentoring and training of Afghan forces. ISAF’s lasting legacy, accomplished with Afghan partners, was the establishment of a 350,000-strong security force, which today is fully responsible for security in Afghanistan. During the course of the 2014 fighting season, the ANSF prevented the Taliban from disrupting national elections allowing more than seven million Afghans to exercise their right to vote. This led to the establishment of the Afghan National Unity Government, which marked the first peaceful democratic transition of power in Afghan history.
Basic measurements of progress across all major sectors of society have shown improvement: life expectancy is rising; mobile communication technology is expanding; an independent media corps is flourishing; and school enrollment is up from one to well over seven million children in the past decade with one third being females. This was inconceivable 13 years ago
“Today marks an end of an era and the beginning of a new one. RESOLUTE SUPPORT will serve as the bedrock of our enduring partnership with Afghanistan” said Resolute Support Commander, U.S. Army General John F. Campbell.
The RESOLUTE SUPPORT mission will consist of more than 12,500 troops focused on building Afghan National Security Force (ANSF) sustainability. 28 NATO Allies and 14 partner nations will contribute to the mission in different ways.
“Now is the time to write the next chapter in our story,” said General Hans-Lothar Domrose, Joint Force Command Brunssum Commander, referring to the launch of Resolute Support.
“We need your help to build the systems necessary to ensure the long-term sustainability of our forces,” said Mohammad Hanif Atmar, Afghanistan’s National Security Advisor. “This is a formidable challenge for any modern army and police force.”
The international community continues to pledge support and financial commitment to help foster an Afghan Decade of Transformation. These efforts will be undertaken with the leadership of President Ashraf Ghani and Chief Executive Abdullah Abdullah. Both leaders have reinforced their pledges for transparency and accountability.
As the ceremony concluded, General Campbell gave his final thoughts and assessment on the progress made by Afghan and international partners.
“Together, we have lifted the Afghan people out of the darkness of despair and given them hope for the future. We’re very proud of our relationship - a relationship built on trust, friendship, and shared interests. That trust and a common vision for a stable, secure, and unified Afghanistan fills me with confidence that we’ll continue to be successful. The road before us remains challenging, but we will triumph.”
As I have opined before we have had at worst a "score draw" with the Taliban and as I have also opined on another thread, I don't believe there is ever a total 'victory' or 'peace' just a pause from conflict over different beliefs; we need to look further than the ends of our noses! How many times have nations or religions been to war with the same old enemies? The only true and full victory is total annihilation of the other side - no survivors. That is never going to happen unless total war happens and the 'gloves come off' completely. Otherwise, it is a skirmish every 10, 20, 50 or 100 years or so before the next one breaks out. Just look at the Falklands - victory declared on Argentinian surrender in 1982, until we get the latest bunch of loons in power in South America and then the sabre starts to rattle again (luckily they are more skint than we are at present!).
So is it a:
Taliban win? No
ISAF win? No
Afghan people win? So far, if you count lifestyle improvements and the ability to educate. However, with idiots with beliefs like Boko Haram around, then even education is becoming an agenda item!
Finally, this is not the time to be mawkish and reflective of those that fell in conflict and think "was it all worth it?". It's not finished yet; indeed it might never be. Furthermore, the numbers that the press are so keen to quote never really reflect the true cost so far - some that died did so in accidents that could well have happened outside of HERRICK and then the critically injured in combat are so readily ignored. As ever, it is all 'spin' designed to alight arguments between the sides and sell the newspaper's articles that releases them.
LJ
My bold and underline added in this recent press release:
ISAF has transitioned to Op RESOLUTE SUPPORT from its previous mission. ISAF’s original mandate was to assist the newly-established Afghan Transitional Authority in and around Kabul. The scope and scale of ISAF’s mission grew as the Coalition added Provincial Reconstruction Teams and took on the responsibility to provide security while Afghan security forces were growing in strength. A critical function throughout the effort was the mentoring and training of Afghan forces. ISAF’s lasting legacy, accomplished with Afghan partners, was the establishment of a 350,000-strong security force, which today is fully responsible for security in Afghanistan. During the course of the 2014 fighting season, the ANSF prevented the Taliban from disrupting national elections allowing more than seven million Afghans to exercise their right to vote. This led to the establishment of the Afghan National Unity Government, which marked the first peaceful democratic transition of power in Afghan history.
Basic measurements of progress across all major sectors of society have shown improvement: life expectancy is rising; mobile communication technology is expanding; an independent media corps is flourishing; and school enrollment is up from one to well over seven million children in the past decade with one third being females. This was inconceivable 13 years ago
“Today marks an end of an era and the beginning of a new one. RESOLUTE SUPPORT will serve as the bedrock of our enduring partnership with Afghanistan” said Resolute Support Commander, U.S. Army General John F. Campbell.
The RESOLUTE SUPPORT mission will consist of more than 12,500 troops focused on building Afghan National Security Force (ANSF) sustainability. 28 NATO Allies and 14 partner nations will contribute to the mission in different ways.
“Now is the time to write the next chapter in our story,” said General Hans-Lothar Domrose, Joint Force Command Brunssum Commander, referring to the launch of Resolute Support.
“We need your help to build the systems necessary to ensure the long-term sustainability of our forces,” said Mohammad Hanif Atmar, Afghanistan’s National Security Advisor. “This is a formidable challenge for any modern army and police force.”
The international community continues to pledge support and financial commitment to help foster an Afghan Decade of Transformation. These efforts will be undertaken with the leadership of President Ashraf Ghani and Chief Executive Abdullah Abdullah. Both leaders have reinforced their pledges for transparency and accountability.
As the ceremony concluded, General Campbell gave his final thoughts and assessment on the progress made by Afghan and international partners.
“Together, we have lifted the Afghan people out of the darkness of despair and given them hope for the future. We’re very proud of our relationship - a relationship built on trust, friendship, and shared interests. That trust and a common vision for a stable, secure, and unified Afghanistan fills me with confidence that we’ll continue to be successful. The road before us remains challenging, but we will triumph.”
As I have opined before we have had at worst a "score draw" with the Taliban and as I have also opined on another thread, I don't believe there is ever a total 'victory' or 'peace' just a pause from conflict over different beliefs; we need to look further than the ends of our noses! How many times have nations or religions been to war with the same old enemies? The only true and full victory is total annihilation of the other side - no survivors. That is never going to happen unless total war happens and the 'gloves come off' completely. Otherwise, it is a skirmish every 10, 20, 50 or 100 years or so before the next one breaks out. Just look at the Falklands - victory declared on Argentinian surrender in 1982, until we get the latest bunch of loons in power in South America and then the sabre starts to rattle again (luckily they are more skint than we are at present!).
So is it a:
Taliban win? No
ISAF win? No
Afghan people win? So far, if you count lifestyle improvements and the ability to educate. However, with idiots with beliefs like Boko Haram around, then even education is becoming an agenda item!
Finally, this is not the time to be mawkish and reflective of those that fell in conflict and think "was it all worth it?". It's not finished yet; indeed it might never be. Furthermore, the numbers that the press are so keen to quote never really reflect the true cost so far - some that died did so in accidents that could well have happened outside of HERRICK and then the critically injured in combat are so readily ignored. As ever, it is all 'spin' designed to alight arguments between the sides and sell the newspaper's articles that releases them.
LJ
PS
F3WMB - a really good pal of mine is a living relative of William Brydon - pictured below. He was the sole survivor to ride into J-Bad from the retreat from Kabul (save for some hostages that were later returned). He was the Asst Surgeon for the 12,000 personnel that were eventually massacred on their way and a part of your picture. His life is believed to have been saved by a magazine that was tightly rolled in his hat that saved him from what would have been a fatal sabre cleave of his skull!
PPS - I guess this was called a defeat even though we came back in force a few more times after that, took the ground, held it for a number of years and still retained the capability to take it back after retreat. I just don't consider that a 'loss' or 'defeat'.
F3WMB - a really good pal of mine is a living relative of William Brydon - pictured below. He was the sole survivor to ride into J-Bad from the retreat from Kabul (save for some hostages that were later returned). He was the Asst Surgeon for the 12,000 personnel that were eventually massacred on their way and a part of your picture. His life is believed to have been saved by a magazine that was tightly rolled in his hat that saved him from what would have been a fatal sabre cleave of his skull!
PPS - I guess this was called a defeat even though we came back in force a few more times after that, took the ground, held it for a number of years and still retained the capability to take it back after retreat. I just don't consider that a 'loss' or 'defeat'.
LJ - Afghan education
In 2009 approximately 22% – around 446,682 – of female students were considered long-term absentees.
While 2,281 schools have been built in the past two years, data from the Afghan Ministry of Education shows that 47% still have no actual building.
A new definition of "built", that. Still paid for, of course.
In the highly insecure Khost province, on the border with Pakistan, just 3 per cent of teachers are female. In neighbouring Paktika, this drops to just 1 per cent.
Girls may only be taught by female teachers, remember.
Secretary of State for Defence Liam Fox "We are not a global policeman. We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th-century country. We are there so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened."
In summary, the actual educational progress is a lot less than the headline figures, is dropping rapidly, and "we" will do nothing about that.
I give it 2 years till girls' school attendance is, outside Kabul, back where it started.
More here. It's bleak.
High Stakes: Girls' education in Afghanistan | Oxfam GB | Policy & Practice
Afghan girls' education backsliding as donors shift focus to withdrawal | Global development | The Guardian
NATO Withdrawal Affects Development Programs in Afghanistan - BORGEN
p.s. re your p.s. Interesting, I read up about 1842 after first seeing the Assistant Bursar's print. As to defeats; Afghanistan will not be a defeat until it's sponsoring/turning a blind eye to terrorism in the West again. Iraq is, however, already a defeat.
The Coalition mission was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (none there), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism(he never did; Daish bloody well are though), and to free the Iraqi people.(Ask the Yazidi about thatl)"
In 2009 approximately 22% – around 446,682 – of female students were considered long-term absentees.
While 2,281 schools have been built in the past two years, data from the Afghan Ministry of Education shows that 47% still have no actual building.
A new definition of "built", that. Still paid for, of course.
In the highly insecure Khost province, on the border with Pakistan, just 3 per cent of teachers are female. In neighbouring Paktika, this drops to just 1 per cent.
Girls may only be taught by female teachers, remember.
Secretary of State for Defence Liam Fox "We are not a global policeman. We are not in Afghanistan for the sake of the education policy in a broken 13th-century country. We are there so the people of Britain and our global interests are not threatened."
In summary, the actual educational progress is a lot less than the headline figures, is dropping rapidly, and "we" will do nothing about that.
I give it 2 years till girls' school attendance is, outside Kabul, back where it started.
More here. It's bleak.
High Stakes: Girls' education in Afghanistan | Oxfam GB | Policy & Practice
Afghan girls' education backsliding as donors shift focus to withdrawal | Global development | The Guardian
NATO Withdrawal Affects Development Programs in Afghanistan - BORGEN
p.s. re your p.s. Interesting, I read up about 1842 after first seeing the Assistant Bursar's print. As to defeats; Afghanistan will not be a defeat until it's sponsoring/turning a blind eye to terrorism in the West again. Iraq is, however, already a defeat.
The Coalition mission was "to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction (none there), to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism(he never did; Daish bloody well are though), and to free the Iraqi people.(Ask the Yazidi about thatl)"
Last edited by Fox3WheresMyBanana; 29th Dec 2014 at 22:44.
F3WMB - sadly, you may be right with a wider non-Afghan religious culture that can treat its females so very badly (almost like other 'posessions' like cattle). However, I take faith in the younger generation like Malala Yousafzai. If we start this education then we stand a chance of change.
Hell, when I look back at my UK female peers at school in the 80s they were the first of generation who were not supposed to find a nice man, have his babies, cook him dinner and be the perfect 'wifey'. My sister, who is 7 years older, fell into this expectation even though she was so much more capable of better.
The schooling is a part of the solution, as are the other lifestyle improvements. If we change the culture in the "13-Century country" then we stand a chance for longer term change - surely?
LJ
Hell, when I look back at my UK female peers at school in the 80s they were the first of generation who were not supposed to find a nice man, have his babies, cook him dinner and be the perfect 'wifey'. My sister, who is 7 years older, fell into this expectation even though she was so much more capable of better.
The schooling is a part of the solution, as are the other lifestyle improvements. If we change the culture in the "13-Century country" then we stand a chance for longer term change - surely?
LJ
Nothing Lost
How could the Taliban have won anything when the US/Nato has lost nothing by wrapping up combat operations? They are still living in caves and ****ting where they eat. We won because we are not further wasting people and money after the primary mission of avenging 9-11 was completed. Yes we did spend a lot of needless effort when it could have been finished in 2002 at Tora Bora, but Cheney needed his "boogeyman" to justify the Iraq invasion so US troops were told to stand down and let BL escape.
As to now, fortunes have been spent to train "our" Afghans. From the experience in Iraq if they populate their forces with women, Shiite/Sunni non-Eunuchs, or import Kurds any Taliban effort will be defeated. If the Afghans will not defend themselves that is their problem as they have nothing we care about (China appears to have all of the rare earth contracts).
The Sultan
As to now, fortunes have been spent to train "our" Afghans. From the experience in Iraq if they populate their forces with women, Shiite/Sunni non-Eunuchs, or import Kurds any Taliban effort will be defeated. If the Afghans will not defend themselves that is their problem as they have nothing we care about (China appears to have all of the rare earth contracts).
The Sultan
WMDs "none there" - really? WikiLeaks Show WMD Hunt Continued in Iraq - With Surprising Results | WIRED
It was DESERT FOX that delayed Saddam's efforts and unfortunately we didn't know that until the 2003 invasion.
It was DESERT FOX that delayed Saddam's efforts and unfortunately we didn't know that until the 2003 invasion.
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 29th Dec 2014 at 23:00.
Really.
https://www.cia.gov/library/reports/...004/index.html
Iraq WMD: Does the New York Times probe reflect what administration officials claimed? - The Washington Post
Nobody is more in favour of girls' education than me. I taught exclusively girls for 6 years, and my Alma Mater directly sponsors several Afghani women a year to study there. Realistically though, the Taliban are agin it, and I sadly think it will be back to Square One in a couple of years.
"any remaining chemical munitions in Iraq do not pose a militarily significant threat ... ISG has not found evidence to indicate that Iraq did not destroy its BW weapons or bulk agents".
Iraq WMD: Does the New York Times probe reflect what administration officials claimed? - The Washington Post
Nobody is more in favour of girls' education than me. I taught exclusively girls for 6 years, and my Alma Mater directly sponsors several Afghani women a year to study there. Realistically though, the Taliban are agin it, and I sadly think it will be back to Square One in a couple of years.
Here's hoping we're both wrong on going backwards! Let's hope that they can rise above it all and see the benefit of equality in gender. It often does me good to consider that women didn't have a vote in the UK some 100 years ago and until recently my last 2 bosses in the RAF were female. We have come a long way in a short space of time and there is no reason, given the chance, that other cultures cannot have such a Herculean shift.
LJ
LJ
Oh, by the way, you and I will just have to disagree on the definition of "none there". In my mind they were there, but just not in the ready-to-use quantities that we believed they could have stockpiled after 1998 when DESERT FOX struck. Unfortunately, Saddam called Bliar's and Dubya's bluff and it cost him his country and life. Kicking out the inspection teams didn't help either!
LJ
LJ
Koran
Surat An-Nisa (The Women)
4.11
Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.
4:34
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.
Surat Al-Ahzab
33:33
And abide in your houses
Stay at home and do as you are bloody well told. Not a lot of hope in there, LJ
Surat An-Nisa (The Women)
4.11
Allah instructs you concerning your children: for the male, what is equal to the share of two females.
4:34
Men are in charge of women by [right of] what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend [for maintenance] from their wealth. So righteous women are devoutly obedient, guarding in [the husband's] absence what Allah would have them guard. But those [wives] from whom you fear arrogance - [first] advise them; [then if they persist], forsake them in bed; and [finally], strike them. But if they obey you [once more], seek no means against them.
Surat Al-Ahzab
33:33
And abide in your houses
Stay at home and do as you are bloody well told. Not a lot of hope in there, LJ