Russian provocations; why do we play?
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Leon, re. "Derrrr!....snooping on our V boats.." In the Baltic?? And the aerial snapping cuts both ways, assuming we can afford new aerials these days. That said, I do take your wider point and don't suggest for one second we wind down our QRA.
The point is though, our sanctions are working. On top of that Putin's main revenue stream, oil, has crashed in price. He is in a tight spot. Cranking up echoes of the cold-war serves only to let him off the hook. The dream result from his point of view would be a midair, the more loss of life the better.
The point is though, our sanctions are working. On top of that Putin's main revenue stream, oil, has crashed in price. He is in a tight spot. Cranking up echoes of the cold-war serves only to let him off the hook. The dream result from his point of view would be a midair, the more loss of life the better.
It's not about 'threats', it's about politics.
The Russians are demonstrating a capability. Our response is for all the reasons Leon gave plus it is also a political statement. 'We know you are there and we will watch'. All the talk of subs and fighter escorts are best left to a Tom Clancy novel. There would be a whole lot of political sniping/posturing before we got to that.
Ukraine May well continue to escalate, we shall see. As to intercepting Russian Bears off our own Islands, we will keep doing it as part of our NATO commitment.
I would not mind betting that Joe Public would rather see the RAF doing this sort of work than dropping bombs in far off deserts, no matter how good the argument. And, let us not forget, the Military is actually run by politicians, NOT Admirals, Generals and Air Marshals.
Regarding intercepting Civil Aircraft, that is part of the UK Anti Terrorism infrastructure and so the two should not be confused.
A final thought: abolish QRA and there would be two main consequences. First you could kiss goodbye to the best part of two Typhoon Sqns, plus the ground based AD C2 systems, as QRA is a core tasking and, second, the political fallout would be considerable. How could Dave and his chums bang the gavel of righteous indignation around the world if he headed a Government that was not even willing, or capable of policing it's own skies and the approaches to it?
Finally, and most importantly, I have not played 'Ukkers' since leaving the RAF.
The Russians are demonstrating a capability. Our response is for all the reasons Leon gave plus it is also a political statement. 'We know you are there and we will watch'. All the talk of subs and fighter escorts are best left to a Tom Clancy novel. There would be a whole lot of political sniping/posturing before we got to that.
Ukraine May well continue to escalate, we shall see. As to intercepting Russian Bears off our own Islands, we will keep doing it as part of our NATO commitment.
I would not mind betting that Joe Public would rather see the RAF doing this sort of work than dropping bombs in far off deserts, no matter how good the argument. And, let us not forget, the Military is actually run by politicians, NOT Admirals, Generals and Air Marshals.
Regarding intercepting Civil Aircraft, that is part of the UK Anti Terrorism infrastructure and so the two should not be confused.
A final thought: abolish QRA and there would be two main consequences. First you could kiss goodbye to the best part of two Typhoon Sqns, plus the ground based AD C2 systems, as QRA is a core tasking and, second, the political fallout would be considerable. How could Dave and his chums bang the gavel of righteous indignation around the world if he headed a Government that was not even willing, or capable of policing it's own skies and the approaches to it?
Finally, and most importantly, I have not played 'Ukkers' since leaving the RAF.
"I wonder how well our QRA would cope with a small force of say forty Russian aircraft all in individual locations and heights and with fighter escorts and their bombers actually using their ECM stuff and defensive guns?
Of course, being a sneaky first strike the Russians would probably throw in a diversion of something like two civil airliners going off track and not responding to ATC."
I doubt they would fiddle with that, if they wanted to attack UK out of nowhere they could do it much simpler. EWS won't help much if any against ballistic&cruise missiles, UK will respond with Tridents sooner or later so it really wouldn't make any difference.
Of course, being a sneaky first strike the Russians would probably throw in a diversion of something like two civil airliners going off track and not responding to ATC."
I doubt they would fiddle with that, if they wanted to attack UK out of nowhere they could do it much simpler. EWS won't help much if any against ballistic&cruise missiles, UK will respond with Tridents sooner or later so it really wouldn't make any difference.
Uckers in Devon
I believe it is/was called Euchre (sp?) in pastyland.
If this is the same game as Uckers, then there were many thriving leagues in the pubs and clubs surrounding Chivenor in the 1960s - not sure about today.
I believe it is/was called Euchre (sp?) in pastyland.
If this is the same game as Uckers, then there were many thriving leagues in the pubs and clubs surrounding Chivenor in the 1960s - not sure about today.
dunno about Devon but Euchre is still very popular in Cornwall - I have a mate who never misses euchre night at his local.
(Btw Devon - pastyland? I did eat a Devon pasty once
)Crew rooms were fertile ground for card games. Kirky was the game of choice when on standby, but I havent heard of it since I left the service.
they have intensified flights to Kaliningrad and the shortest route has to skim estonian lithuanian and latvian airspace, I can't see why is that a provocation
I don't know why they fly more now, maybe because fuel is quite cheap these days so why not
I don't know why they fly more now, maybe because fuel is quite cheap these days so why not
This is how Russians view themselves -
And much like the Germans after the First World War, they have convinced themselves that the Soviet Union didn't lose the Cold War and they want a re match.
The only thing that will stop them is a military defeat.
todays Russia doesn't have anything to do with Soviet Union, entirely different philosophy and no more communism and pesky small nations...
they are economically cornered now but they have seen worse days, IMHO they can resist the pressure for years
they are economically cornered now but they have seen worse days, IMHO they can resist the pressure for years
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I believe that this thread is based on a misunderstanding. I don't think that what the Russion military is doing are "provocations" any more than the USN crossing Libya's "Line of Death" was a provocation. They are simply exercising their right of passage in international waters and airspace.
I think you misunderstand Ken. There are international treaties that define how aircraft operate. Russia is a signatory to these treaties yet choose to operate some military aircraft in ICAO regulated airspace without talking to ATC and without a transponder.
So we better invade them?
Come on, seriously....
Putin's games are internal PR stuff. Former Super Powers have often huge difficulties of letting go, once the glory faded away.
You give him way too much credit py panicking so much.
And btw. Russia is as capitalist as it gets. Compared to that most European states are socialist. Heck, even China which still has a Communist Party is genuinely capitalist in Detail.
Putin's games are internal PR stuff. Former Super Powers have often huge difficulties of letting go, once the glory faded away.
You give him way too much credit py panicking so much.
You give him way too much credit py panicking so much.
You think invading Ukraine and causing the death of up to 10,000 Russians and Ukrainians is 'internal PR'?
The Russian people don't need convincing by Putin in any case. They want the return of the Russia Empire and they know they can get it. The NATO Nazi's won't be able to stop them. Do you seriously believe that Nato will go nuclear to defend the Baltic's? Because if there is any doubt, nothing will stop Russia.
Poland isn't convinced either, after the Western Betrayal in 1939, promises of military help are give a very skeptical review.
And btw. Russia is as capitalist as it gets. Compared to that most European states are socialist.
You think invading Ukraine and causing the death of up to 10,000 Russians and Ukrainians is 'internal PR'?
Maybe there is a Job opportunity for you if you have more intell than CIA&al
The Russian people don't need convincing by Putin in any case. They want the return of the Russia Empire
The NATO Nazi's won't be able to stop them. Do you seriously believe that Nato will go nuclear to defend the Baltic's? Because if there is any doubt, nothing will stop Russia.
If anything Russia would have to go nuclear quite quickly in an all out conventional war.
Conventionally they are a regional power, Nuclear they are a Super Power, together with America able to extinct Life on Earth.
Poland isn't convinced either, after the Western Betrayal in 1939, promises of military help are give a very skeptical review.
Given that their society was formed from a gangster war in the 1990's (after 200 years of dictatorships) its hardly surprising.
Al Copone was a capitalist from the same mould as those running Russia today. They don't believe in democracy or the will of the people or any of that bull****.
Ukraine still has 2200 Lenin statues, Russia probably tens of thousands, because he is still a hero and rose tinted spectacles makes the Russians yearn for the return of the 'Soviet Union'.
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I think you misunderstand Ken. There are international treaties that define how aircraft operate. Russia is a signatory to these treaties yet choose to operate some military aircraft in ICAO regulated airspace without talking to ATC and without a transponder.
Or more correctly, since we are talking about INTERNATIONAL airspace, are the Russians operating in violation of Annex 2? If so, what provisions of Annex 2 are the Russians allegedly violating? And finally, is Annex 2 even applicable to Russian military aircraft? How about US military aircraft?
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