QRA Shout Over Kent : Breaking News
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Originally Posted by Trim Stab
All very well threatening to shoot somebody down if they do as expected and obey the order
You need to take his comment in full, T93 - TS is saying that it is all very well issuing the threat to shoot down the aircraft if it fails to comply when you issue that threat with near 100% confidence that your instructions will be obeyed, but what happens if that confidence is misplaced? Do you then carry out the threat?
UK authorities threatened to destroy the plane if it continued its journey, according to a recording obtained by Sky News.
"Do not cross into UK airspace or you'll be shot down," a voice is heard saying on the audio recording.
"Do not cross into UK airspace or you'll be shot down," a voice is heard saying on the audio recording.
Except that's not what he says on the clip they post....
Would the Typhoon shoot down an airliner?? Depends on the tactical situation, if it isn't a threat to anything most likely not (Helios Airways Flight 522 is a good example, Aircraft ended up crashing in open country while being escorted by a couple of F-16s, had it looked like it was heading for Athens city centre could have been a different story).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
The Tiffy pilot is no different from the soldier in Horseguards, or any armed guard or police anywhere.
Without going in to RoE, it was normal to shout a warning and issue orders.
In the case in Canada, where the gun man makes no threat but goes straight into attack then I imagine immediate response, no warning, would be both necessary and permitted.
I know there must be other issues and considerations but . . .
Without going in to RoE, it was normal to shout a warning and issue orders.
In the case in Canada, where the gun man makes no threat but goes straight into attack then I imagine immediate response, no warning, would be both necessary and permitted.
I know there must be other issues and considerations but . . .
The intercept procedures are published (it's a requirement of the IACO convention).
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL11.pdf
Nothing about being fired at, bar the 'If your fired at, we can't give any advice'.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20130121SSL11.pdf
Nothing about being fired at, bar the 'If your fired at, we can't give any advice'.
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Nice piece just posted by MOD RAF ...
Securing the skies: Behind the headlines
Well played by all involved yesterday
Protecting the UK is what the RAF was founded for and it is still our primary responsibility.
Well played by all involved yesterday
Trim Stab, you seem to be reducing this event and your speculation to the lowest possible level. How could your imagined response to an order to comply affect a supposed engagement order?
I am just considering different possible scenarios that could unfold. For example, the threat aircraft could announce that they intend to fly into the Palace of Westminster, but that they don't want to cause any casualties and will give the occupants time to evacuate. So then what happens? Do you shoot down the aircraft and risk ground casualties? What do you do if an aircraft is in IMC, squawking 7600, and correctly following its planned route to destination, which happens to go over central London? Or an aircraft on a route over London squawks 7700 and makes an emergency descent? Or a modern plastic aircraft with a very low radar signature just turns the transponder off completely?
I have flown one such aircraft as a UAV simulator on a military exercise and I know that they are not easy to see on the radars of some very modern air defence aircraft.
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It's alright Trim Stab, don't worry!
Our Typhoon's have PIRATE ( Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment ) as well as Radar. Not to mention monitoring by Ground Primary Radars, I don't think the target taking to cloud surfing will help him!
If's and what If's have to be dealt with as they occur. So of course; if there is non-compliance, then the decisions will be taken to minimise any collateral damage as possible and passed to the Interceptor Pilot for execution of those orders.
Our Typhoon's have PIRATE ( Passive Infrared Airborne Tracking Equipment ) as well as Radar. Not to mention monitoring by Ground Primary Radars, I don't think the target taking to cloud surfing will help him!
If's and what If's have to be dealt with as they occur. So of course; if there is non-compliance, then the decisions will be taken to minimise any collateral damage as possible and passed to the Interceptor Pilot for execution of those orders.
Thanks - still think the determined terrorist could find a way through pretty easily, with a combination of timing, subtle subterfuge, and the right aircraft. I won't go into further detail!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TS, you are of course correct referring to the stable door scenario, but can we assume a 76/77 event would continue unrecorded given sufficient reaction time?
You refer to UAV; I wrote a scenario that generally elicited the wrong response from crews that took it at face value. Crews that sat back and took precautionary measures rather than a snap decision generally got it right.
You refer to UAV; I wrote a scenario that generally elicited the wrong response from crews that took it at face value. Crews that sat back and took precautionary measures rather than a snap decision generally got it right.
The ground radar coverage of the UK isn't really an issue either after the Airfield Radar Integration Project was initiated in 2002. The UK most likely has the best overall inland primary radar coverage at all altitudes it has ever had at the minute.
Cobham continues Airfield Radar Integration Project support to UK MOD. - Fusion Air Traffic Management services
Cobham continues Airfield Radar Integration Project support to UK MOD. - Fusion Air Traffic Management services
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It seems like the QRA pilots at Coningsby weren't the only ones who got behind the stick yesterday...
RAF Jets Intercept Russian Military Bombers
RAF Jets Intercept Russian Military Bombers
Trim
Of course a determined Terrorist can do it if he knows what he is doing and you don't have to keep too mumm about it seeing that Tom Clancy literally wrote two books with such an attack as the linking event years before 9/11. Dale Brown likewise wrote a cheap imitation based on the same theme a short while after Clancy did. In the second book, Clancy has somebody ask the FAA guy investigating the attack how did the attacker manage to pull it off, The FAA guy's reply, 'He knew all the correct buttons to push'.
To be honest the best comments I ever heard about this type of scenario was from (what I seem to remember) was the head of NORAD to a Committee (Which may have been something to do with the 9/11 Commission), where he stated 'If my interceptors have to shot down a hijacked airliner, it means that everybody else in the security apparatus across the board has FAILED!!!'
Of course a determined Terrorist can do it if he knows what he is doing and you don't have to keep too mumm about it seeing that Tom Clancy literally wrote two books with such an attack as the linking event years before 9/11. Dale Brown likewise wrote a cheap imitation based on the same theme a short while after Clancy did. In the second book, Clancy has somebody ask the FAA guy investigating the attack how did the attacker manage to pull it off, The FAA guy's reply, 'He knew all the correct buttons to push'.
To be honest the best comments I ever heard about this type of scenario was from (what I seem to remember) was the head of NORAD to a Committee (Which may have been something to do with the 9/11 Commission), where he stated 'If my interceptors have to shot down a hijacked airliner, it means that everybody else in the security apparatus across the board has FAILED!!!'
Originally Posted by Trim Stab
Sorry - I don't understand your point, but if I am interpreting your gobbledygook correctly, I think you may be assuming that the next aerial terrorist event will be an exact copy of the last.
No one involved assumes anything very much about what the next terrorist event might be. Each tactical situation is watched and analysed very carefully as it evolves and the risks and threat constantly evaluated by those on the ground and in the air.
Your continual use of the word "you" in your recent post, I must assume means the UK Air Defence system. In that case "they" will make a decision based on their view of the situation and may well decide that the appropriate reaction to the threat is to engage and destroy the the aircraft in question.
Do not think for a moment that you are likely to dream up a generic scenario here that has not already been considered.
In this case the aircraft was not communicating with UK controllers. Your scenarios about what if they say this or that are clearly very different to this one.
Anyway, be sure of this. No matter what radio communication goes on, if the "system" perceives a clear and present danger, the folks in the aircraft won't talk their way to achieving their aims. There are appropriate, albeit complex, RoE in place and people that are trained to and willing to employ them.
Hope my gobbledygoock isn't to hard for you.
P.S. I love your mysteriously knowledgable "I won't go into further detail". Best you don't. You clearly have some seriously important inside information that those of us that have worked in the "system" we're never made aware of. But thanks for the hint anyway.
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The whole rationale of loss of contact interceptions assumes hostile persons have the skill, training and ruthlessness to gain control of an aircraft and pilot it to its destination/target....but somehow be UNable to make a few radio calls. If Dr Evil just reads his RT manual along with the one on how to fly a jet, it's just another routine inbound until just before impact. Why would "the system" detect any danger at all?
Were you responding to me, ShotOne, or making a general point? If at me, the "system" must assume that lost comms is purely a technical issue of some description - hence the visual communications codes, for example. However, UK QRA is not there to intercept a potential threat just to watch it deliberately crash into something. Things changed after 9/11. I can assure you the "system" is pretty switched on. When we were conceiving the "system" we did consider such events.
If your post post was not to me, sorry for bothering you.
If your post post was not to me, sorry for bothering you.
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Courtney, what happens if the aircrew of the target aircraft have lost all radio contact and can't receive the orders of the intercepting pilot? What would happen then? Would the pilot be forced to engage if the a/c continued on its course?
I suspect some might be thinking, "well the sight of two Typhoons armed with missiles shadowing your aircraft is enough to make any pilot need to change their pants" and I apologise in advance if this comes across as a somewhat stupid and naive question, but what if the pilot of the target aircraft is too distracted by the problems in his aircraft to notice the jets?
I suspect some might be thinking, "well the sight of two Typhoons armed with missiles shadowing your aircraft is enough to make any pilot need to change their pants" and I apologise in advance if this comes across as a somewhat stupid and naive question, but what if the pilot of the target aircraft is too distracted by the problems in his aircraft to notice the jets?
Day, night, IMC, VMC, way out over La Manche, over Scotland, over or close to London? My point again is that no to two scenarios are the same. That's Air Defence in the modern era.
In the simplest scenario, the visual intercept signals work well and a Typhoon knocking on the window won't go unnoticed for long. An aircraft in distress might happily follow an interceptor to a nice safe runway. As conditions become more difficult, the decisions become more complex - way beyond the public forum, but not difficult to imagine.
But again, every scenario is different and decisions will always be made on the information available.
Some may say it ain't always perfect; I would certainly not subscribe to that publicly.
In the simplest scenario, the visual intercept signals work well and a Typhoon knocking on the window won't go unnoticed for long. An aircraft in distress might happily follow an interceptor to a nice safe runway. As conditions become more difficult, the decisions become more complex - way beyond the public forum, but not difficult to imagine.
But again, every scenario is different and decisions will always be made on the information available.
Some may say it ain't always perfect; I would certainly not subscribe to that publicly.