Cold War days - A/C turnaround times
The role of the aircraft can make a big difference. Doing QTRs on the Tor GR1a was incredibly quick - land, taxi, refuel whilst new targets delivered to the cockpit and tapes dropped and new pack of VHS tapes inserted. It took minutes and meant taking to the air again with little idea of what the next few recce targets would be or what a safe tactical routing would entail.
In truth some of this was fudged as the final automated edit of the tapes would take an age. As we were judged by the time on the ground we often transited back at a relatively low speed to allow time for the in-flight recce report and allow the edit to finish. Otherwise you could taxi back and have to wait for the edit to finish.
The number of armorers available is probably the critical path these days. They have always been undermanned as in peacetime there is relatively little for them to do. Doing away with practice stores has allowed for further cuts in their numbers. Once you go to war and drop or part-retain mixed weapon loads, part fire the gun, require role changes, prep new weapons and fix minor snags then we suffer the consequences of regarding armorers as a nice-to-have trade.
In truth some of this was fudged as the final automated edit of the tapes would take an age. As we were judged by the time on the ground we often transited back at a relatively low speed to allow time for the in-flight recce report and allow the edit to finish. Otherwise you could taxi back and have to wait for the edit to finish.
The number of armorers available is probably the critical path these days. They have always been undermanned as in peacetime there is relatively little for them to do. Doing away with practice stores has allowed for further cuts in their numbers. Once you go to war and drop or part-retain mixed weapon loads, part fire the gun, require role changes, prep new weapons and fix minor snags then we suffer the consequences of regarding armorers as a nice-to-have trade.
Ian 16th.
Re the "Hunter"a ground team could turn round two hunters in less than 30 minutes,a lot less ,that included the gun pack ,oxygen ,avpin and fuel!Maybe the warm climate(Aden) and lack of clothing made us a little quicker than the UK erks?
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ExRAFRadar
I assume from your comments re 208 Sqn Buccs in the ASUW role that your wargaming would also cover Nimrod.
Once Nimrod was loaded with nucs we had a terrible problem if anything other than routine maintenance and rectification was required during turnround. The weapons had to be downloaded, handed back to the US custodians (we carried US weapons), taken back to the weapon storage areas, then after aircraft rectification, bought back to the aircraft, handed over to the RAF, loaded back onto the aircraft and then taken over by the crew. This all took an inordinate amount of time and I doubt that it could have been shortened very much in wartime unless a lot of the fundimental principles of handling nuc weapons went out the window.
It would be interesting to hear the views of any ex Nimrod armourers.
I assume from your comments re 208 Sqn Buccs in the ASUW role that your wargaming would also cover Nimrod.
Once Nimrod was loaded with nucs we had a terrible problem if anything other than routine maintenance and rectification was required during turnround. The weapons had to be downloaded, handed back to the US custodians (we carried US weapons), taken back to the weapon storage areas, then after aircraft rectification, bought back to the aircraft, handed over to the RAF, loaded back onto the aircraft and then taken over by the crew. This all took an inordinate amount of time and I doubt that it could have been shortened very much in wartime unless a lot of the fundimental principles of handling nuc weapons went out the window.
It would be interesting to hear the views of any ex Nimrod armourers.
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Nimrods do indeed feature as well as Shacks.
Re the Nuke thing - I am modelling purely Conventional weapons at the moment.
However there is some discussion about if Tac Nukes were used at sea then it might not mean instant escalation.
My personal feeling is that any use of Nukes at any level would soon spiral out of control.
If I am Ivan and I have just lost a whole load of SSGN and SSN to tactical nuke depth charges, which stops me punching a hole in the Convoys coming across the Pond I might just think , "OK load up the Backfires with the big buckets of Instant Sunshine and stop those convoys"
But what yo have got me interested in Nimrod turnaround times in the Conventional role.
For example I would expect the same crew, doing the same mission not to have go to Debrief/Brief. A 'Hot' Debrief/Brief in the aircraft, new stores loaded and away you go.
Would this be accurate ?
And here I have to say that crew fatigue on the LRMP task would have to be a factor.
I mean it's not all "Light the Fires, kick the tires, first off is Leader, brief on Guard"
Re the Nuke thing - I am modelling purely Conventional weapons at the moment.
However there is some discussion about if Tac Nukes were used at sea then it might not mean instant escalation.
My personal feeling is that any use of Nukes at any level would soon spiral out of control.
If I am Ivan and I have just lost a whole load of SSGN and SSN to tactical nuke depth charges, which stops me punching a hole in the Convoys coming across the Pond I might just think , "OK load up the Backfires with the big buckets of Instant Sunshine and stop those convoys"
But what yo have got me interested in Nimrod turnaround times in the Conventional role.
For example I would expect the same crew, doing the same mission not to have go to Debrief/Brief. A 'Hot' Debrief/Brief in the aircraft, new stores loaded and away you go.
Would this be accurate ?
And here I have to say that crew fatigue on the LRMP task would have to be a factor.
I mean it's not all "Light the Fires, kick the tires, first off is Leader, brief on Guard"
Harriers GR3's,Gut,mid 08's. Standard OTR (Operational Turn Round) weapons load for the Harrier, was 2 bombs,2 guns,that is 2 BL755 cluster bombs and full HE per Aden cannon.
If memory serves total turnround time would be around 15-20 minutes with a good team and there was a lot of pride around being a good OTR team.
If memory serves total turnround time would be around 15-20 minutes with a good team and there was a lot of pride around being a good OTR team.
ASW screening for the fleet was our role, and the longest I recall a Ripple 3 was for two weeks. That's 3 ASW Sea Kings airborne for 4 hour sorties 24 hours a day, turnround was generally a refuel and crew change in about 5-10 minutes. Turn round was dictated by the ship's requirements to maintain MLA against giving us some sort of compliance with wind limits for launch/recovery.
Aircraft were pulled for service as scheduled and replaced in the programme to maintain continuity, crew roster was briefing 1 hour prior to launch, 4 hours airborne, debrief, scran in the ACRB, off to the pit and start again in 6 hours.
Fixed wing were far more relaxed
Aircraft were pulled for service as scheduled and replaced in the programme to maintain continuity, crew roster was briefing 1 hour prior to launch, 4 hours airborne, debrief, scran in the ACRB, off to the pit and start again in 6 hours.
Fixed wing were far more relaxed
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A Nimrod could carry 6 or 9 torpedoes in racks of 3.
For a single prosecution it was likely that only 2 would be dropped. After the first wad dropped it would take a finite time to relocate the target. Clearly you might get a one shot kill. You might also get a second chance quickly.
Your chance of a third drop, especially on a second submarine, would be slim.
Most torpedoes would be expended on close support with urgent attacks used more for deterrence.
It follows therefore that rearming, if time was of the essence, could be deferred if at least 4 weapons remained. The critical turn round would be fuel and continuous.
And crew wise, until you ran out of crews, should not be a problem. Read Hackett' s book WW 3.
For a single prosecution it was likely that only 2 would be dropped. After the first wad dropped it would take a finite time to relocate the target. Clearly you might get a one shot kill. You might also get a second chance quickly.
Your chance of a third drop, especially on a second submarine, would be slim.
Most torpedoes would be expended on close support with urgent attacks used more for deterrence.
It follows therefore that rearming, if time was of the essence, could be deferred if at least 4 weapons remained. The critical turn round would be fuel and continuous.
And crew wise, until you ran out of crews, should not be a problem. Read Hackett' s book WW 3.
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camlobe - I remember that night well, or rather the next morning when we woke up and found the bunch across the runway had lost a jet overnight, I helped unload the bits they dredged up from a low loader.
One thing to add about the armourers, even though we were "other" trades, we were trained to be part of load teams to assist on re-arming the jet under the supervision of a bombhead sneck. For example We were carefully drilled on using the loader to lift the 1000lb to a couple inches short of the pylon, then adjust the front/back and left/right on the bomb tray so it lined up with the Explosive Release Unit (ERU_ before raising it up the last few inches and locking it into place.
At three in the morning the more usual procedure was for front/back to be adjusted by moving the loader, then the left/right was resolved by the bombhead leaning on the bomb tray until it was lined up then we pumped like hell to raise it unto the ERU and lock it in before the bombhead let go.
This only works on the wing pylons, there was not enough space in the bomb bay to do the left/right leaning.
Four bombs in the bomb bay, two on the wings and a sidewinder on the outer I think, but then we had to take them all off and replace the CBLS on the wings before it went off
One thing to add about the armourers, even though we were "other" trades, we were trained to be part of load teams to assist on re-arming the jet under the supervision of a bombhead sneck. For example We were carefully drilled on using the loader to lift the 1000lb to a couple inches short of the pylon, then adjust the front/back and left/right on the bomb tray so it lined up with the Explosive Release Unit (ERU_ before raising it up the last few inches and locking it into place.
At three in the morning the more usual procedure was for front/back to be adjusted by moving the loader, then the left/right was resolved by the bombhead leaning on the bomb tray until it was lined up then we pumped like hell to raise it unto the ERU and lock it in before the bombhead let go.
This only works on the wing pylons, there was not enough space in the bomb bay to do the left/right leaning.
Four bombs in the bomb bay, two on the wings and a sidewinder on the outer I think, but then we had to take them all off and replace the CBLS on the wings before it went off
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As we are talking about Cold War aircraft, we should not leave out the B-36 and make no mistake, the B-36 was a Cold War aircraft.
According to my father, the normal 'combat' turnaround time, which was classified back during the day, for the B-36 was about two days, mostly due to maintenance issues. Hell, it took hours just to refuel it and to service all the oil tanks.
According to my father, the normal 'combat' turnaround time, which was classified back during the day, for the B-36 was about two days, mostly due to maintenance issues. Hell, it took hours just to refuel it and to service all the oil tanks.
Re Post 20. PN was that the Malta Adex in Oct 67? On that Exercise I recall that the bombers were Vulcans from Malta and Canberras from Akrotiri. The exercise covered 3 days and on one of the days the bomber stream waited till we ( 5 Sqn Lightnings) had been scrambled and then did a 360. GCI quickly realised this and we recovered to Luqa straight away. The first aircraft was back on state and scrambled again before the bomber stream had completed its 360, and I think we were all airborne again before the bombers got to Malta. On the night part of the Exercise the Maltese PM was sitting outside the tower watching, and we were asked to keep the burners in till 20000 ft.
In the F4 revetment days at Leuchars, the limiting factor was getting the fuel in.
On an OTR, things were being opened / removed as the aircraft was being pushed back (with the engines still running).
Everything could be replenished by the time the fuel was uploaded, including crew and weapons.
Maybe not as slick, but very similar to the F1 pit stops. Everyone had a job to do and everyone was prepared.
Impressive to watch and you knew that you'd done a good job at the end.
On an OTR, things were being opened / removed as the aircraft was being pushed back (with the engines still running).
Everything could be replenished by the time the fuel was uploaded, including crew and weapons.
Maybe not as slick, but very similar to the F1 pit stops. Everyone had a job to do and everyone was prepared.
Impressive to watch and you knew that you'd done a good job at the end.
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Hmm.
With a good team who [had] worked together and an I/C who really was on the ball with his blokes it became a ballet at times as it just flowed perfectly.
Then again all it took was one chippy kh and it could go lossie almost from the start....
With a good team who [had] worked together and an I/C who really was on the ball with his blokes it became a ballet at times as it just flowed perfectly.
Then again all it took was one chippy kh and it could go lossie almost from the start....
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CJ, yes, that was the one. We had 3 different raid plans one for each day. The Canberras, disappointingly, used the same plan each day.
On the fake raid all aircraft exited radar cover apart from one. He turned back on plan so that QTR aircraft requested authority to engage. The Vulcan crew ordered him to recover and Magdalena assumed he wanted to recover.
He realised he had need spoofed hence the Qtr; well that's my understanding.
In the PDX out raid plans were declared unfair as the Egyptian Air Force was not that sophisticated.
Overall I think you got most if not all the raiders, but then we were playing fighter rules.
On the fake raid all aircraft exited radar cover apart from one. He turned back on plan so that QTR aircraft requested authority to engage. The Vulcan crew ordered him to recover and Magdalena assumed he wanted to recover.
He realised he had need spoofed hence the Qtr; well that's my understanding.
In the PDX out raid plans were declared unfair as the Egyptian Air Force was not that sophisticated.
Overall I think you got most if not all the raiders, but then we were playing fighter rules.
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Hmm.
With a good team who [had] worked together and an I/C who really was on the ball with his blokes it became a ballet at times as it just flowed perfectly.
Then again all it took was one chippy kh and it could go lossie almost from the start....
With a good team who [had] worked together and an I/C who really was on the ball with his blokes it became a ballet at times as it just flowed perfectly.
Then again all it took was one chippy kh and it could go lossie almost from the start....
Yes had heard that our QTRs were called unfair as they were so quick. Can't remember actual times but believe there were several wheels on to wheels off times of 15 minutes or less. By the way I think that we bought a young lady controller from Patrington with us to help at Madeleina and so, as the bombers could not reproduce her voice, we avoided too many spoof calls.
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CJ, I remember her well, drop dead gorgeous. We went to PXD PU at Magdalena. What a fabulous site.
The best spoofs were the simplest. A Judy Judy call, just when the controller was expecting it was perfect as everyone went quiet
The best spoofs were the simplest. A Judy Judy call, just when the controller was expecting it was perfect as everyone went quiet
