V-22 Osprey Air Refuel F-35Bs for CVFs? + other stuff

[LowObservable]

1 - Surely ski-jump energy is proportional to forward velocity, whereof the V-22 does not have a lot...

2 - I envision the low-slung V-22 banging its a**e on the deck when rotating on a ramp, but I may be wrong.

[John Farley]

LO

1 True O King but for any velocity there is still a benefit from a ramp (especially if the ship is pitching).

2 Dunno

BTW the F-35B will not have anything like the Harrier STO accel as the fan element does not push it forward very much.

[Courtney Mil]

Originally Posted by JF

(especially if the ship is pitching)

Really good if the pointy end is on its way up at the time.

Last time I spent a long time on Lusty with the air wing gone, the ramp really came into its own; the big sunbathing area. Lots of storage space underneath too, right, JF?

Seriously, if you don't have cats, the ramp has to be a winner. Simple physics.

[Not_a_boffin]

Last attempt to get point across...

Obviously STO / MROL / SRVL give benefits in payload. There would have to be very good reasons not to employ them if technically possible from a control point of view.

The issue I have is the potential effect on the deck park if you have to provide additional clearance to account for hoofing great spinning rotors traversing a swathe of deck.

It's all very well to say :

shuffling aircraft around is a flat deck stock in trade - no big deal.

but that is heavily dependent on the manning of the ship and the flypro required. QEC (and CVN 78 for that matter) have been designed around a pitstop philosophy which basically reduces the number of moves between launch and recovery to an absolute minimum. The reason they have done that is to realise significant reductions in chockheads in particular, to allow more bodies to be assigned to the bomb shop. There is a reason a ship with double the aircraft capacity of CVS has significantly fewer than double the bods in the air wing.

I'll quite happily admit that's moot given the current pitiful numbers of cabs proposed for the ship on service entry. But it may not always be so and there is little provision in the ship or manning budgets to find more bodies to get around it.

[Engines]

NaB,

Thanks for persevering, that was a very useful post. I absolutely agree that a V-22 MROL would eat up a lot of deck space and quite probably involve some reshuffling of the deck park - and your assessment of available manpower is also spot on.

You're also right that the very small air groups that the UK is planning to embark on QEC will leave plenty of deck space.

I think we're violently agreeing, where I may part company from you is my belief that with a flight deck area close to the original Forrestal and a small air group, the RN will have more flexibility than most to try MROLs. In any case, I'd see the V-22 STO as delivering more payload advantages than an MROL (LO's point, well made).

Incidentally, the space under the ramp on CVS was converted into a messdeck (for the embarked SHAR units, naturally). One of the noisier spots to try to get some sleep....

Best Regards as ever

Engines

[SpazSinbad]

F-35B SRVL / V-22 MROL Deck Park Arrangements

I hope the deck park for SRVL is sorted then. This video clip [from larger video here: Jump jet simulator smoothes out landings | British Forces News ] shows a realistic deck park purportedly for an F35B SRVL according to the reporter. IF SRVLs are managed in this way then so will any potential MROLs by V-22 Ospreys I would imagine. 2nd & 3rd images are screenshots from same Youtube video clip at URL below, with a compilation graphic showing V-22 engine/props positioned during an MROL plus deck layout indications on an LHA from the already mentioned V-22 test PDF earlier.

SRVL Touchdown CVF Simulation - YouTube

Click thumbnails for big pics:

[SpazSinbad]

Early USS Forrestal photo?

'Engines' mentioned above: "...my belief that with a flight deck area close to the original Forrestal and a small air group, the RN will have more flexibility than most to try MROLs...." Is this what was envisaged? I'll gather from the aircraft on deck that this is an early USS Forrestal photo.

[SpazSinbad]

CVF Compared to CVS and previous Ark Royal

There are more comparison by size flight deck graphics but youse are probably bored by now... AND a STO V-22 JPG added for the lack of ski jump in it - from the PDF about MROL/STO testing as indicated earlier.

Pic1: http://www.aircraftcarrieralliance.c...-at-rosyth.jpg

Pic2: Navy News July 2010

Click thumbs for BIG PIC:

[SpazSinbad]

British Osprey Interest?

Israeli Buy a Boost For Osprey Production Line 23 Apr 2013 Richard Sisk

http://www.dodbuzz.com/2013/04/23/is...oduction-line/

"The surprise announcement that Israel was acquiring the tilt-rotor MV-22 Osprey for its special forces has led other countries to take a second look at buying the aircraft that has greater range and speed than conventional helicopters.
“I can tell you that several countries are very, very interested” in the Osprey, said William Schroeder, a spokesman for Bell Boeing of Fort Worth, Tex.

Schroeder declined to name the interested countries, but the United Arab Emirates has been haggling with Bell Boeing for more than a year on unit prices, and Britain and Canada have also inquired about the Ospreys....

...The Osprey would fit into Gantz’ announced design to create a joint special operations force for Israel, similar to the U.S. Joint Special Operations Command. The MV-22s, with their in-flight refueling capacities, would be used for long-range commando raids against emerging threats in the region.

It was unclear whether Gantz was interested in the MV-22 standard Osprey used by the Marines, or the CV-22 used by Air Force special forces, which is fitted with extra wing fuel tanks and an AN/APQ-186 terrain-following radar...."

[eaglemmoomin]

There was a MOD/RN study years ago (2010ish?) about mounting an AEW fit on Osprey while Crowsnest was still called MASC. The conclusion is that it would work and be an option of the UK but we would not be going that way.

I think but am not certain that Crowsnest is less 'ambitious' than MASC ever was.

[Not_a_boffin]

I think but am not certain that Crowsnest is less 'ambitious' than MASC ever was.

You're not wrong.

Crowsnest by definition entails a helicopter platform.

MASC (Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control) was a deliberate change from the previous FOAEW (Future Organic AEW) to reflect the aspiration to do more than SKW/ASaC - and we're not talking FCs here, or mini J-STARS for that matter. It was based around the potential requirement on the airframe as much as the sensor / comms suite.

[SpazSinbad]

USMC Test MV-22 Air-to-Air Refueling this Summer

Marines to Test MV-22 Air-to-Air Refueling this Summer 01 May 2013 By Paul D. Shinkman

Marines to Test MV-22 Air-to-Air Refueling this Summer - US News and World Report

"...The MV-22 Osprey,... will start testing air-to-air refueling this summer, Marine Corps officials tell U.S. News. Manufacturer Boeing already has a kit that would allow crews to roll fuel tanks onto the Osprey's cargo hold and dangle a hose to refuel other planes mid-air....

...The MV-22's speed and range also allows it to keep up with modern, stealthy aircraft, such as the F-35. This new capability would extend the range of the JSF from 450 miles to 600 miles, Marine officials say.

The Marine Corps hopes to begin trial refueling in a test aircraft in July, Killea says...."

[LowObservable]

Sounds about right. One-third range increase = maybe a bit more than one-third of a tank... 5000 lbs at the 300-350 mile mark. An expensive way to fix the jet's lame- range but whaddyado?

[John Farley]

but whaddyado?

Wait until the enemy gets closer and save some paraffin into the bargain. If he gets too close retreat in the braking stop (but still looking him honourably in the eye) thus making him fly further and extending his logistical trail until he asks you for a bite to eat when everybody can go down the pub.

[SpazSinbad]

USMC explores F-35B operating concepts - V-22 ARF

USMC explores F-35B operating concepts 20 Jun 2013 Dave Majumdar

"The US Marine Corps is working on several different operating concepts for the Lockheed Martin F-35S short take-off/vertical landing version of the Joint Strike Fighter, according to a senior officer at the Paris air show.

Pilots at the USMC's weapons schools are working on detailed tactics execution, says Lt Gen Robert Schmidle, the service's deputy commandant for aviation....

...A second concept currently being examined is to deploy a whole squadron of 16 F-35Bs on board an amphibious assault ship, along with six MV-22s. Those MV-22s would be equipped with a roll-on/roll-off aerial refuelling kit which would greatly extend the range of the F-35B, Schmidle says. A MV-22 is going to be tested this "summer" with the aerial refueling kit.

That package of F-35Bs and MV-22 could also move ashore to implement the USMC's distributed operations concept, where small number of fighters would be based at multiple austere airfields, Schmidle says. The MV-22s would support the jets with cargo hauls and aerial refueling, he says. The jets would also move every few days to complicate the enemies' targeting problem...."

PARIS: USMC explores F-35B operating concepts

[SpazSinbad]

OV-10G+ Bronco

In reference to the 'Low Observable' interest expressed here: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7795013

Here is some recent news about OV-10G+ Bronco activities:

Combat Dragon II Demonstrates OV-10G+ Bronco Capabilities | Defense Media Network 13 Jun 2013

'Bushranger 71' would be interested also: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircr...ml#post7731503

[SpazSinbad]

V-22 Tanker Demo Aug 2013

Bell-Boeing Plans V-22 Tanker Demonstration in August 27 Jun 2013 By RICHARD R. BURGESS, Managing Editor

"ARLINGTON, Va. — Bell-Boeing, the joint venture that builds the V-22 Osprey tiltrotor transport aircraft, plans to demonstrate the aircraft’s potential as an organic aerial refueler during trials in early August.

“By using a concept that is being developed by Bell-Boeing engineers, using the roll-on Mission Auxiliary tanks, Bell-Boeing will do an airborne demonstration of V-22 in the tanker role with their technology demonstrator aircraft,” said Brian Roby, Boeing Integrated Defense Systems’s field office representative in San Diego. “It is my understanding that they will drag a refueling basket behind the aircraft at various positions with an F/A-18 in the refueling position. No fuel will be passed during this demo; it will just be a proof of concept.

“Should this demonstration be successful it will be another significant step towards demonstrating how a single type/model/series aircraft, V-22, can provide added mission utility while attached to a carrier,” Roby said."

SEAPOWER Magazine Online
&
http://www.jeffhead.com/buildup/21stv22tanker.jpg

[SpazSinbad]

USN Might Consider Tanking Hornets with V-22?

Navy to Consider New Ways to Shuttle Passengers, Supplies to Aircraft Carriers July 2013 By Sandra I. Erwin

"...Karika [manager of military business development at Bell Helicopter, and a former Marine Corps V-22 pilot] said the Navy also might consider using the Osprey as a refueling tanker for Hornet jets during recovery and launch operations. Bell-Boeing will be testing the Osprey in refueling missions later this summer, he said...."

Navy to Consider New Ways to Shuttle Passengers, Supplies to Aircraft Carriers

[SpazSinbad]

V-22 COD Piece Versatility

The Next COD | New Navy carrier-onboard-delivery aircraft planned for 2026
By RICHARD R. BURGESS, Managing Editor SEAPOWER Magazine Aug 2013 pp 34-37

"...One concern of the next COD’s capabilities voiced by some observers is that the F135 engine of the F-35 Lightning II joint strike fighter is too large to fit in a C-2A and too heavy to highline between ships. It can be carried on the cargo hook of an H-53E helicopter or a V-22, but for ranges far shorter than 1,300 nautical miles. A costly new-design COD would be required to carry the sealed engine inside the cargo bay.

"Our idea previously was to carry a lot of engines on the ship and then repair them," said retired Vice Adm. James M. Zortman, sector vice president of Global Logistics and Operational Support for Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems, and a former commander, Naval Air Forces. "As we’ve gotten into more and more reliable engine designs, we don’t necessarily put the whole engine together. It is components of engines and the ability to move the components when you break the engine down are pretty small. So the idea of slinging a full engine under anything, while you can come up with the scenario where you might need to do that, a very vast majority of support situations rely on the reliability of that engine and then the ability to move components around rather than whole engines."

The Navy already has taken a preliminary look at the V-22 as a potential COD. A Military Utility Assessment of the Marine Corps’ MV-22B Osprey was conducted June 12-17 onboard the aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman "with the purpose of assessing the V-22’s integration into carrier cyclic operations during performance of the COD mission," Scolpino said. The results of the assessment had not been reported by the Navy by press time July 15.

Brian M. Roby, an official with Boeing’s San Diego field office, and a former C-2A pilot, said the V-22 can carry 20,000 pounds of cargo internally in 320 cubic feet of car go volume, and has an external cargo hook for carrying loads that will not fit in the cargo bay, up to 15,000 pounds.

He said the V-22 could carry an F135 engine for "a couple hundred miles."
Bell Boeing has developed 430-gallon Mission Auxiliary Tanks (MATs); up to three can be inserted in the V-22’s cargo bay. Roby said the company is developing another roll-in MAT design that will allow the V-22 to fly the required 1,300 nautical miles with room for 20 passengers. The V-22 has seats along the sides of the cargo bay that fold upward to clear space for other payloads.

Rick Linhart, Bell’s vice president for Military Business Development, said the Air Force’s CV-22s have extra fuel tanks in the aft portions of the landing gear sponsons and that the Marine Corps’ MV-22Bs have the plumbing for such tanks already installed. He also said Bell-Boeing is looking at conformal fuel tanks and other solutions to enable the V-22 to reach the 1,300 nautical mile requirement.

Roby said the V-22, unlike a conventional fixedwing aircraft, does not require headwind over the deck to land or take off, and as such would increase the flexibility of COD operations from a carrier.

The V-22’s vertical flight capabilities would enable it to use its hoist to deliver and retrieve personnel and light cargo from the small helicopter pads of surface ships and even from surfaced submarines, duties currently performed by helicopters.

The heat from the engine exhaust plume of the V-22’s engines currently limits the types of ships that the aircraft can operate from, and flight-deck modifications to accommodate the engine exhaust would be an additional cost. A 2009 analysis from the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency said, "The deployment of the MV-22 Osprey has resulted in ship flight deck buckling that has been attributed to the excessive heat impact from engine exhaust plumes. Navy studies have indicated that repeated deck buckling will likely cause deck failure before planned ship life." [Mitigation of this issue already operational with the rotors being tilted from vertical to alleviate the heat issue.]

The V-22 does not feature cabin pressurization, a factor that normally limits the altitude at which the aircraft can transit with passengers, typically 10,000 feet, without supplemental oxygen, rather than the aircraft’s 25,000-foot service ceiling. Roby said the V-22’s technology can enable it to avoid bad weather and the need to climb over it.

"If weather dictates, per Navy regulations, passenger flights are cleared up to 13,000 feet for up to three hours, or approximately 700 nautical miles at Osprey cruise speeds," he said.

The V-22 has the ability to refuel in flight. Last year, an Air Force CV-22B flew from New Mexico to the eastern Atlantic Ocean to lift a dummy passenger from a submarine at sea, and then flew back to New Mexico, a round-trip distance of 2,600 nautical miles in 11.5 hours with three aerial refuelings.

Roby says the V-22 will free the carrier strike group from the logistic tethers of runways in range ashore, and enable operations from mobile landing platforms and combat logistics ships [and LHAs].

"My opinion on developing future expectations for this critical mission area is that it has as much to do with understanding airborne logistics as it does with employing V-22’s tiltrotor technology and imagination to streamline delivery methods and provide logistics efficiencies, rather than carrier-only delivery," he said.

Roby said the V-22 would offer low risk and affordability and efficiencies in operating costs, logistics support, life-cycle costs, helped by the large (400-plus) Osprey production run and joint procurement with the Marine Corps and Air Force.

"The versatility of this machine also will change the view of the COD," Linhart said. "The COD, certainly, will be able to pick up parts, go to austere locations to do that, [and] land on more than just the carrier in the carrier group, but I think that is just the tip of the iceberg of what the possibilities are. The Navy will have no trouble figuring out what kinds of missions they can pick up as a result."
Roby said the V-22 has the versatility also to serve as an airborne tanker. In August, Bell-Boeing planned to demonstrate the tanker potential in a proof-of-concept flight involving dragging a refueling basket with an F/A-18 strike fighter in the refueling position.

Since the beginning of the V-22, the program of record has had a documented Navy requirement for 48 V-22s, though the role of those aircraft has never been defined, Linhart said."

http://www.seapower-digital.com/seapower/august_2013/Download_submit.action?lm=1374555966000&pgs=all (PDF 8.8Mb)
OR
http://www.seapower-digital.com/seapower/august_2013?folio=34#pg36

[SpazSinbad]

Bell-Boeing to flight test V-22 air refueling kit

Bell-Boeing to flight test V-22 air refueling kit 31 July 2013 Grace Jean, Washington, DC - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

"Key Points
• The prototype air refueling kit is based on the V-22's rapid ground refueling system
• Industry officials said they plan to fly the kit in August to verify smooth flight of a drogue behind a V-22

A prototype tanking kit that would enable the V-22 Osprey to air refuel aircraft, including the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, will be flight tested in August, industry and US Marine Corps (USMC) officials told IHS Jane's .

Developed by Bell-Boeing, the prototype air refueling kit is based on existing technologies employed by the V-22 for rapid ground refueling, according to Ken Karika, business development manager at Bell Helicopter...."

Bell-Boeing to flight test V-22 air refueling kit - IHS Jane's 360