Gaining An R.A.F Pilots Brevet In WW II
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After remaining relatively steady for a while, this my "home" Thread (as I always think of it) has suddenly run riot (nights closing in ?, nothing on the telly ?, Olympics over ?), and I suddenly have enough cud to keep me chewing all week.
Just like the old days !...
Danny.
Just like the old days !...
Danny.
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Wander00 (#9350),
Recalls the time I went away to school at the tender age of 7. To assuage my homesickness, Mother had (privily) put in my school trunk my Teddy Bear (in his little striped flannel pyjamas !)
The practice (fairly universal, I would think) was that all trunks were delivered to a ground floor corridor, the owner would then open and tip the lot into his travel rug (which was part of his kit). Then the corners of the rug were brought together, and the "swag" bundle carried up two flights of stairs to the locker rooms and dormitories and kit stowed away.
So there, in full view of his new schoolfellows, was the small Danny with his even smaller Teddy atop the pile !
The horror of that moment in 1929 has never left me.
(Sorry, Mr Moderator, please indulge an old man once again).
Danny.
...Oh the embarrassment!...
The practice (fairly universal, I would think) was that all trunks were delivered to a ground floor corridor, the owner would then open and tip the lot into his travel rug (which was part of his kit). Then the corners of the rug were brought together, and the "swag" bundle carried up two flights of stairs to the locker rooms and dormitories and kit stowed away.
So there, in full view of his new schoolfellows, was the small Danny with his even smaller Teddy atop the pile !
The horror of that moment in 1929 has never left me.
(Sorry, Mr Moderator, please indulge an old man once again).
Danny.
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I lacked the courage [and the item] to take my Teddy Bear to Boarding School. And, if I had had a Golliwog, that would have also have been a bad move ... as the school was in Jamaica 
Danny42C ... glad you have the distraction of this thread of magnificent memories, and gibberish, and diversions.
I assume you arrived in parts of the Sub-Continent/Burma unexpected as well?
Danny42C ... glad you have the distraction of this thread of magnificent memories, and gibberish, and diversions.
I assume you arrived in parts of the Sub-Continent/Burma unexpected as well?
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MPN11 (#9634),
My arrival in the subcontinent was unexpected in the sense that 36 new Fighter Pilots from UK Spitfire and Hurricane OTUs arrived there under the fond delusion that they were to equip a Spitfire Wing and then gain undying glory by winning the Battle of India which was surely about to come.
The Scales fell from their Eyes when they found that (a) there were no Spitfires in India at the time and (b) the Jap had no aircraft to launch a Battle, and absolutely no intention of starting one if he had, as his Army was doing quite nicely without such a thing - having taken Singapore in about a week, and then kicking us out of Malaya, Burma (they took [neutral] Siam en passant) in short order, and had only stopped to draw breath before tackling the Sunderbans, taking Calcutta and moving up the Gangetic Plain to Delhi. Game, set and match.
There was little to stop them, but for reasons which have never been explained (at least, not to me), they rested on their laurels a bit too long; enough force was scratched together to hold them short of Chittagong (a deep-water port which would greatly simplify their supply chain), the First Battle of Arakan started and Bob's your Uncle.
We would have been unemployed but for the entirely fortituous fact that, coincidentally, a large batch of Vultee Vengeance arrived for no better reason than that (having paid hard cash for them in a panic), nobody else wanted the things. Needs must when the devil drives, we perforce became Dive Bomber pilots. As the RAF never had anything to do with Dive Bombers, did not want to know about them now and wished they would just disappear quietly, there was no help there, we just had to work it out and write the book ourselves.
We didn't do all that badly, one way and another.
Danny.
My arrival in the subcontinent was unexpected in the sense that 36 new Fighter Pilots from UK Spitfire and Hurricane OTUs arrived there under the fond delusion that they were to equip a Spitfire Wing and then gain undying glory by winning the Battle of India which was surely about to come.
The Scales fell from their Eyes when they found that (a) there were no Spitfires in India at the time and (b) the Jap had no aircraft to launch a Battle, and absolutely no intention of starting one if he had, as his Army was doing quite nicely without such a thing - having taken Singapore in about a week, and then kicking us out of Malaya, Burma (they took [neutral] Siam en passant) in short order, and had only stopped to draw breath before tackling the Sunderbans, taking Calcutta and moving up the Gangetic Plain to Delhi. Game, set and match.
There was little to stop them, but for reasons which have never been explained (at least, not to me), they rested on their laurels a bit too long; enough force was scratched together to hold them short of Chittagong (a deep-water port which would greatly simplify their supply chain), the First Battle of Arakan started and Bob's your Uncle.
We would have been unemployed but for the entirely fortituous fact that, coincidentally, a large batch of Vultee Vengeance arrived for no better reason than that (having paid hard cash for them in a panic), nobody else wanted the things. Needs must when the devil drives, we perforce became Dive Bomber pilots. As the RAF never had anything to do with Dive Bombers, did not want to know about them now and wished they would just disappear quietly, there was no help there, we just had to work it out and write the book ourselves.
We didn't do all that badly, one way and another.
Danny.
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Danny, you have stolen the next part of John Dunbar's story! ( but I forgive you )
He tells of how, with the L5, he had to work it out and write the book himself.
Best wishes
He tells of how, with the L5, he had to work it out and write the book himself.
Best wishes
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Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP) Five into four won't go
Taken from two tapes
Danny, please forgive me for jumping in last night - one of the perils of forums!
Could you give us some recollections of your first days with the Veangance and also your living conditions. I ask this because over the fifteen years or so and the many many conversations with John, he would always come back to the living conditions and regularly said " We lived like animals" It had a cumulative effect on him as we shall see later.
Taken from two tapes
Danny, please forgive me for jumping in last night - one of the perils of forums!
Could you give us some recollections of your first days with the Veangance and also your living conditions. I ask this because over the fifteen years or so and the many many conversations with John, he would always come back to the living conditions and regularly said " We lived like animals" It had a cumulative effect on him as we shall see later.
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Flt Lt John Dunbar DFC (RIP)
Five into four won't go
Taken from two tapes.
I had two or three horrible days - the guys would not speak to me and I was trying to work through the quagmire of officialdom. Eventually someone twigged that the thirty three L'5s on the airfield matched the thirty pilots. Dave Proctor was receiving medical treatment back in Bombay having somewhat excelled himself. We managed to scrounge help and tools and put the aircraft together ourselves. The were no maintenance manuals and no pilots notes. I took the first one up for about twenty minutes and loved it. Basic training kicked in and I made some performance notes. We wrote the book ourselves. I then took two of the other pilots up and they in turn checked out the rest. As we finished a navigator arrived and announced that he was to lead us on the next step of our journey but could not tell us where we were going. You can imagine my reaction. 100 L5's were delivered to Burma split between 4Corps, 5Corps and 33 Corps. Of the 100 delivered sixty were written off in crashes in the jungle
We set off on a four day journey at 110mph, this massive formation of L5's, with no parachutes and no radios. We eventually arrived at Calcutta and it was here that the navigator told me of our final destination, Imphal. We took off and after a while he asked if we could get over the mountains. I asked what height they were and he said 10,000ft. We somehow did and let down into Imphal which was being strafed by the japs at the time. Not a soul was to be seen except for the od bod peering out of a slit trench. Eventually a Group Captain in charge of Imphal landing ground, wearing a tin helmet sort of crawled up to the aircraft. I shall never forget his words "What the hell are you lot doing here? Get these bloody toys out of here. Don't you know there's a war on?" My answer was NO I explained we were short on fuel and had nowhere else to go.
To be continued .
Five into four won't go
Taken from two tapes.
I had two or three horrible days - the guys would not speak to me and I was trying to work through the quagmire of officialdom. Eventually someone twigged that the thirty three L'5s on the airfield matched the thirty pilots. Dave Proctor was receiving medical treatment back in Bombay having somewhat excelled himself. We managed to scrounge help and tools and put the aircraft together ourselves. The were no maintenance manuals and no pilots notes. I took the first one up for about twenty minutes and loved it. Basic training kicked in and I made some performance notes. We wrote the book ourselves. I then took two of the other pilots up and they in turn checked out the rest. As we finished a navigator arrived and announced that he was to lead us on the next step of our journey but could not tell us where we were going. You can imagine my reaction. 100 L5's were delivered to Burma split between 4Corps, 5Corps and 33 Corps. Of the 100 delivered sixty were written off in crashes in the jungle
We set off on a four day journey at 110mph, this massive formation of L5's, with no parachutes and no radios. We eventually arrived at Calcutta and it was here that the navigator told me of our final destination, Imphal. We took off and after a while he asked if we could get over the mountains. I asked what height they were and he said 10,000ft. We somehow did and let down into Imphal which was being strafed by the japs at the time. Not a soul was to be seen except for the od bod peering out of a slit trench. Eventually a Group Captain in charge of Imphal landing ground, wearing a tin helmet sort of crawled up to the aircraft. I shall never forget his words "What the hell are you lot doing here? Get these bloody toys out of here. Don't you know there's a war on?" My answer was NO I explained we were short on fuel and had nowhere else to go.
To be continued .
Last edited by Box Brownie; 25th Sep 2016 at 14:54. Reason: Corrections!
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Awesome! 
MPN11:-
Awsome indeed! You wonder how we ever managed to win sometimes! Who on earth was in charge of all this, or was no-one? It makes Danny's Spitfire course in order to fly non-existent Spitfires in India as merely a slight hiccup in the system. It seems there was no system, or at least none that involved ensuring that the big picture at AHQ bore any resemblance to what actually happened on the ground (or in the air!).
Now we have all 30(?) L5's pitching up into the middle of one of the most ferocious land battles ever fought between British and Japanese forces.
Great cliff hangar, BB, hold the front page!
Awesome!
Now we have all 30(?) L5's pitching up into the middle of one of the most ferocious land battles ever fought between British and Japanese forces.
Great cliff hangar, BB, hold the front page!
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Listening back to one of the tapes Chug, he does mention 33 L5's I can only think that two were spares in case of Cat 5's 4Corps had just broken out of Imphal. On one tape he talks of Dave Proctor claiming to have the only air conditioned L5 in Burma, there were so many holes in bottom of the fuselage - tears in the fabric from branches. The interesting thing is, John had given up on the 'Five into four won't go' appearing in print so never expected any of this to see the light of day. He often said no one would believe you if you told them. He does mention that a photo of the gaggle in flight over India has appeared in Flypast magazine and also that on un-packing the a/c that they been in so much of a hurry that a couple of the a/c had American markings on one side of the fuselage and British markings on the other.
MPN11 Now you know why he was my hero. Speaking of which, the late Len Thorne was a friend. Len was on occasions wing man to Paddy Finnucane, Jonny Johnson and Al Deere though he always stressed that this was after the B of B. Len flew a captured FW190 for 50 hours during the war. He would drool over the fact that it would do six upward rolls before falling off. There is a book called 'So Few' in which Al Deere is featured. I asked Len if he would sign my copy under Al Deere. He signed, put his rank and squadron and then wrote " He was my hero then, and is my hero now" If only I had had the foresight to record Len
MPN11 Now you know why he was my hero. Speaking of which, the late Len Thorne was a friend. Len was on occasions wing man to Paddy Finnucane, Jonny Johnson and Al Deere though he always stressed that this was after the B of B. Len flew a captured FW190 for 50 hours during the war. He would drool over the fact that it would do six upward rolls before falling off. There is a book called 'So Few' in which Al Deere is featured. I asked Len if he would sign my copy under Al Deere. He signed, put his rank and squadron and then wrote " He was my hero then, and is my hero now" If only I had had the foresight to record Len
Last edited by Box Brownie; 25th Sep 2016 at 15:47. Reason: word alteration
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Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP) #9361),
Standard form of reception at any new place, familiar to all servicemen. Not to worry !
Now John is taking shape before us. Haven't we all known "Johns" ? - The Leading Man, the one who is always the spokesman for the others, the Volunteer (in the face of all good advice to the contrary), the one who always "sticks his neck out", the Tall Poppy who gets lopped first...
And the one who "leads with his chin" - viz his bearding of the (Canadian) Group Captain in his lair. How come he wasn't put under arrest on the spot for insubordination ? - it can only be that sheer astonishment had shocked the Station Commander into (temporary) submission.
John, have a care ! You are on thin ice ! Learn to "keep your head down", "Maintain a low profile", "Blend into the scenery" - otherwise it will not go well with you. It will be a case of "This young man will go far !"...."The further, the better !"...."He should start at once !"
And quite right, too. Him and his big mouth ! Why does he never learn ? Now look what's happened ! (I fear for John).
And: "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it !"
Danny.
...At Bombay nobody was expecting us and they knew nothing about us...
...I spoke to a senior officer...
And the one who "leads with his chin" - viz his bearding of the (Canadian) Group Captain in his lair. How come he wasn't put under arrest on the spot for insubordination ? - it can only be that sheer astonishment had shocked the Station Commander into (temporary) submission.
John, have a care ! You are on thin ice ! Learn to "keep your head down", "Maintain a low profile", "Blend into the scenery" - otherwise it will not go well with you. It will be a case of "This young man will go far !"...."The further, the better !"...."He should start at once !"
...no one would talk to me! I was sent to Coventry. Not only had I got them back on instructing, but they were to instruct in the Indan Air Force...
And: "Be careful what you wish for - you might get it !"
Danny.
When I was at school, our physics teacher, Mr Pugh, spent a whole lesson describing his accident flying an L5 out of Imphal. Apparently he was following a telephone line through the jungle and was so intent on his task he didn't notice a cliff in front of him. He crashed into the trees but fortunately was unhurt. Although he was now behind Japanese lines, he did manage to walk home unhindered. Best physics lesson I ever had.
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Sound words Danny. I do wonder if, because of his personality and record, he was picked for the job. How many of us have the courage to put our head above the parapet! He didn't suffer fools gladly
Pulse one - your physics teacher would have been one of John's pilots. Do you recall any other bits of that lesson? Hopefully this account will give you an insight into his war.
Pulse one - your physics teacher would have been one of John's pilots. Do you recall any other bits of that lesson? Hopefully this account will give you an insight into his war.
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Box Brownie (pp John Dunbar DFC (RIP) #9368),
British officialdom is bad enough, but Indian far worse by several orders of magnitude !
I have lost grip here, we left him in Ambala instructing on TMs. Now he's got L5s. Dates and moves, please (if poss). Where are we ?
High Authority does sometimes have these Damascene moments - as when AHQ Delhi suddenly realised that they had a bunch of Vengeance doing nothing with next door another bunch of pilots ditto - and Lo - the light struck !
Worse case than ours ! At least ours had pukka RAF mechs for the jigsaw, the pilots would never have got one together ("Needs simple home assembly ?")
After you'd assembled it yourself ? You are a brave man, Sir !
Possible Indian politeness - he didn't know himself, but didn't want to upset you !
Now that's what I call attrition, and no mistake !
Where from and when was this ?
A bit late to ask, if I may say so !
When was this ? The Imphal front hotted-up in spring 1944. Before that things were relatively quiet. I have an entry in my log 28.10.43. "landed Palel to refuel". Palel is in the plain of Imphal - if it had not been overrun when John arrived there would have been plenty of room for his L-5s there. Which Imphal airfield did he land at, anyway ?
I know nothing of casevac or any other L-5 activities on the Northern front. Down in the Arakan it had been developed into a routine. Army wounded were stretchered to the small strip behind the battle, the L-5 took them 20-30 mi North to one of our strips, offloaded them there and went back for another lot. The supply-dropping Dakotas carried a PMRAF nurse aboard, on their return empty they would pick up the casualties from us and she would do her best for them as it flew on to a proper Field Hospital maybe 100 miles further North.
It must have been hard for them (and for her) as the Daks were fitted for supply-drop and not casevac, all you could do was put them on the cabin floor. The Loadies were very proud of their brave girls and took good care of them.
Danny.
...I was trying to work through the quagmire of officialdom...
I have lost grip here, we left him in Ambala instructing on TMs. Now he's got L5s. Dates and moves, please (if poss). Where are we ?
...Eventually someone twigged that the thirty three L'5s on the airfield matched the thirty pilots...
... We managed to scrounge help and tools and put the aircraft together ourselves. There were no maintenance manuals...
...no pilots notes. I took the first one up for about twenty minutes and loved it...
...As we finished a navigator arrived and announced that he was to lead us on the next step of our journey but could not tell us where we were going...
...You can imagine my reaction. 100 L5's were delivered to Burma split between 4Corps, 5Corps and 33 Corps. Of the 100 delivered sixty were written off in crashes in the jungle...
...We set off on a four day journey at 110mph, this massive formation of L5's, with no parachutes and no radios...
...We eventually arrived at Calcutta and it was here that the navigator told me of our final destination, Imphal. We took off and after a while he asked if we could get over the mountains...
...I shall never forget his words "What the hell are you lot doing here? Get these bloody toys out of here. Don't you know there's a war on?" My answer was NO I explained we were short on fuel and had nowhere else to go...
I know nothing of casevac or any other L-5 activities on the Northern front. Down in the Arakan it had been developed into a routine. Army wounded were stretchered to the small strip behind the battle, the L-5 took them 20-30 mi North to one of our strips, offloaded them there and went back for another lot. The supply-dropping Dakotas carried a PMRAF nurse aboard, on their return empty they would pick up the casualties from us and she would do her best for them as it flew on to a proper Field Hospital maybe 100 miles further North.
It must have been hard for them (and for her) as the Daks were fitted for supply-drop and not casevac, all you could do was put them on the cabin floor. The Loadies were very proud of their brave girls and took good care of them.
Danny.
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Danny, post 9360 at the bottom of page 638 should give some answers. If only John were still with us... He would have been thrilled at the response and somewhat embarrassed - we could have gone into the fine detail. The next post should shed some light - please don't get fixated on casualty evacuation! I will try and find out where his son is and see if he has John's log book. That should give us some answers. When we get to Five into four won't go, I have a page of his log book to illustrate the story
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Good news Danny, I have spoken to John's son this evening and he has the log books. By the way, there never was any intention of them instructing at Ambali. They jumped to that conclusion on arrival, hence John being sent to Coventry!
Apologies for barging in to your crew room with this, but I'm hopeful that some old timers here can add something to my quest.
On 21st August 1940, 2 Spitfires from 234 Squadron shot down a Ju88 which crashed and burnt out near Kings Somborne, Hampshire.
A photo shows RAF personnel walking back to their vehicle after viewing the burnt out wreckage in the middle of a mustard field.
The mustard field was mentioned in a contemporary newspaper report, but although the vicar offered to have the men buried in the local churchyard, the remains appear to have been loaded into the back of an Army truck and that is the last record of their identity.
On 22nd August 4 Germans were buried in Grave O74 in Chartham cemetery.
They were then reburied as Unknowns in Cannock Chase in Block 9 Grave 48.
Circumstantially, there appear to be no other group of Luftwaffe unknown casualties for 21/22 August, but obviously to be sure, I need older heads to clarify if Chartham Hospital was used as a "collection point" for Luftwaffe casualties from the BoB?
I can't believe they would have been taken to Churchill as evdience of Fighter Command successes, but why Chartham from Kings Somborne?
60024/67 FF Obergefr Gerhard FREUDE 14.10.18 Koslitz, Luben
60024/4 BO Oberlt Max-Dankwart BIRKENSTOCK 16.12.15 Neustettin, Stettin
60024/64 BF Uffz Rudolf SCHULZE 29.9.19 Liegnitz
60024/79 BS Gefr Franz BECKER 18.1.19 Hurth, Koln
Max-Dankwart Birkenstock was the Bomb aimer, Freude was the pilot, Schulze was the radio operator/upper gunner and Becker was the rear gunner (usually in the under fuselage gondola, facing aft) are reported killed.
Serial number of the plane and individual code (B3+?H) is not known, but if parts of it can be found, there is always chance serial might be found on a component or a part plate. Time and place of crash is given "Kings Somborne 14:15 hrs".
21 August 1940: 1./KG54 Junkers Ju 88 A-1. Shot down by 2 Spitfires (flown by Sqdn Ldr J.S. O’Brien and Pilot Officer R.F.T. "Bob" Doe) of No.234 Squadron, during an armed reconnaissance over southern England. Jettisoned its bombs but crashed in flames and burned out at King’s Somborne at about 2.15 p.m.
Oberleutnant Max-Dankwart Birkenstock,
Obergefreiter Gerhard Freude,
Unteroffizier Rudolf Schulze, and
Gefreiter Franz Becker all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.
A memorial stone inscribed to 'To 4 Unknown German Airmen Aug 23 1940' was erected alongside a lane on nearby Hoplands Farm."
I have frequently seen and participated in a few, searches for relatives of Bomber Command crews whenever wreckage is uncovered on the Continent and it seems only right to do as much for those once our enemies.
I need to link Kings Somborne to Chartham cemetery (why there?) and on to Cannock.
Proof is what I need, can any here assist?
On 21st August 1940, 2 Spitfires from 234 Squadron shot down a Ju88 which crashed and burnt out near Kings Somborne, Hampshire.
A photo shows RAF personnel walking back to their vehicle after viewing the burnt out wreckage in the middle of a mustard field.
The mustard field was mentioned in a contemporary newspaper report, but although the vicar offered to have the men buried in the local churchyard, the remains appear to have been loaded into the back of an Army truck and that is the last record of their identity.
On 22nd August 4 Germans were buried in Grave O74 in Chartham cemetery.
They were then reburied as Unknowns in Cannock Chase in Block 9 Grave 48.
Circumstantially, there appear to be no other group of Luftwaffe unknown casualties for 21/22 August, but obviously to be sure, I need older heads to clarify if Chartham Hospital was used as a "collection point" for Luftwaffe casualties from the BoB?
I can't believe they would have been taken to Churchill as evdience of Fighter Command successes, but why Chartham from Kings Somborne?
60024/67 FF Obergefr Gerhard FREUDE 14.10.18 Koslitz, Luben
60024/4 BO Oberlt Max-Dankwart BIRKENSTOCK 16.12.15 Neustettin, Stettin
60024/64 BF Uffz Rudolf SCHULZE 29.9.19 Liegnitz
60024/79 BS Gefr Franz BECKER 18.1.19 Hurth, Koln
Max-Dankwart Birkenstock was the Bomb aimer, Freude was the pilot, Schulze was the radio operator/upper gunner and Becker was the rear gunner (usually in the under fuselage gondola, facing aft) are reported killed.
Serial number of the plane and individual code (B3+?H) is not known, but if parts of it can be found, there is always chance serial might be found on a component or a part plate. Time and place of crash is given "Kings Somborne 14:15 hrs".
21 August 1940: 1./KG54 Junkers Ju 88 A-1. Shot down by 2 Spitfires (flown by Sqdn Ldr J.S. O’Brien and Pilot Officer R.F.T. "Bob" Doe) of No.234 Squadron, during an armed reconnaissance over southern England. Jettisoned its bombs but crashed in flames and burned out at King’s Somborne at about 2.15 p.m.
Oberleutnant Max-Dankwart Birkenstock,
Obergefreiter Gerhard Freude,
Unteroffizier Rudolf Schulze, and
Gefreiter Franz Becker all missing. Aircraft 100% write-off.
A memorial stone inscribed to 'To 4 Unknown German Airmen Aug 23 1940' was erected alongside a lane on nearby Hoplands Farm."
I have frequently seen and participated in a few, searches for relatives of Bomber Command crews whenever wreckage is uncovered on the Continent and it seems only right to do as much for those once our enemies.
I need to link Kings Somborne to Chartham cemetery (why there?) and on to Cannock.
Proof is what I need, can any here assist?
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Sufficiently complex to deserve a separate Thread, IMO. No disrespect intended.