Mossie : The Plane That Saved Britain
Originally Posted by 500N
"about 4 or 5 were flyable"
How can we go from 4 or 5 flyable in the 60's
to having to have one rebuilt in NZ ?
What happened to the flyable aircraft ?
(Excluding the last one that crashed)
How can we go from 4 or 5 flyable in the 60's
to having to have one rebuilt in NZ ?
What happened to the flyable aircraft ?
(Excluding the last one that crashed)
Five were flown in the film, plus a 6th airworthy one was in attendance at Bovingdon during filming which was used for crew training, this was T3, TV959.
The five actually used for flying sequences were,
B.35’s RS709, RS712, TA639 & TA719 plus T.3 TW117.
RS709 stayed airworthy with the Skyframe collection after filming and was used 5 years later for filming Mosquito Sqn. It was sold after that to an American owner in the early 70’s and was flown across the Atlantic where it spend most of the 70’s under several different owners. It was bought by a UK owner and was flown back across the Atlantic in 1979. It was restored over a number of years before being sold again, and eventually acquired by the USAF Museum, and flown back across the Atlantic again in 1984 to Dayton where it was permantley grounded and put on display in the museum painted to represent a PRXVI flown by the USAAC.
RS712 also stayed airworthy after filming ended, and was acquired by the films advisor Hamish Mahaddie. It was also used for filming Mosquito Sqn, and eventually ended up with the Strathallen Collection in Scotland and flown occasionally through the 70’s. It was bought by US collector Kermit Weeks for £100,000 when the Stathallen Collection folded in the mid 80’s and was flown across the Atlantic by the same crew that flew RS709 across a year or two before. It stayed airworthy for a few years, and last flew in 1992 IIRC. It’s be displayed in the EAA museum ever since. Kermit does have plans to restore it back to airworthy at some point, but given the amount of projects he has I won’t hold my breath on that ever happening.
TA639 was loaned by the RAF for filming, and returned RAF storage after filming, the flight from Bovingdon to RAF Henlow probably being it’s last flight. It was allocated to the RAF Museum and has been on display at Cosford since 1970.
TA719 was also bought by Skyframe and loaned out for the filming. It returned to the Skframe collection afterwards, but was badly damaged in crash landing a year later at Staverton. It was used for ground scenes in Mosquito Sqn in 1968 before eventually ending up at the IWM Duxford in the late 70’s where it is still on display.
TW117 was loaned to the filming from the RAF and returned to RAF Museum storage at Henlow afterwards. IIRC, this a/c was flown to Abingdon for the big 50th RAF show in 1968, and it’s last flight was it’s return to Henlow where it was allocated for displaying in the new RAF Museum at Hendon, where it stayed on display for 20 years until being sold as part of a deal so the RAFM could acquire other artefacts. It’s owners then permantley loaded the a/c to the RNAF at Bodo in Norway in 1992.
TV959 flew straight from filming to have it's wing sawn off and the aircraft was hung in the IWM Lambeth where it remained for the next 25 years until being sold to the Duxford based Fighter Collection, where it remained stored for a number of years until being recently sold to Paul Allens Seattle based FHC, and it is now being restored to airworthy condition by the same team in NZ that rebuilt KA114.
As an aside, the pilot that flew both RS709 and again, RS712 across the Atlantic in the mid 1980's was noted ex-DH TP, and hugely experienced Mosquito pilot George Aird, who famously is seen here ejecting from a trials Lightning in the early 1960's
Last edited by GeeRam; 18th Jul 2013 at 20:45.
While it's a interesting discussion, no single aircraft type saved
Britain.
What saved us were the people that crewed them: those lucky
enough to be assigned to a competent machine like a Mosquito, Spitfire,
Lancaster, etc. and those who climbed into Battles, Hampdens, Rocs, Manchesters,
Defiants etc. to face god knows what.
Without the people who designed,
built, flew, serviced and supported them no 'plane got off the ground. Respect
to them all.
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According to these chaps;
, the NA Mustang won the war.
The Mosquito was, indeed, a brilliant aeroplane. One of its selling points, though, was its use of material and labour not engaged on other essential war work. It also needed shiploads of balsa wood to form the core of the plywood sandwich; all of which needed to run the U-Boat gauntlet from South America. To increase the Mosquito population would probably have meant training more skilled cabinet makers and taking the gamble to move wood at the expense of metal.
The Mosquito was, indeed, a brilliant aeroplane. One of its selling points, though, was its use of material and labour not engaged on other essential war work. It also needed shiploads of balsa wood to form the core of the plywood sandwich; all of which needed to run the U-Boat gauntlet from South America. To increase the Mosquito population would probably have meant training more skilled cabinet makers and taking the gamble to move wood at the expense of metal.
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GeeRam,
If that photo is real. It's the best aviation photo I've ever seen (as long as the pilot and farmer were okay).
What timing and getting it all in the frame, the tractor driver in the foreground is a nice touch. Probably the one photo of a lifetime for a professional photographer.
I feel sorry for the farmer who was up at the crack of dawn and spent all day working hard plowing his field, only for Biggles to put a big crater right in the middle of it all.
If that photo is real. It's the best aviation photo I've ever seen (as long as the pilot and farmer were okay).
What timing and getting it all in the frame, the tractor driver in the foreground is a nice touch. Probably the one photo of a lifetime for a professional photographer.
I feel sorry for the farmer who was up at the crack of dawn and spent all day working hard plowing his field, only for Biggles to put a big crater right in the middle of it all.
Last edited by gr4techie; 18th Jul 2013 at 22:38.
"The story behind a famous photograph of an ejection from a Lightning. - The photograph opposite was taken by Jim Meads on 13 September 1962. It was published in newspapers all around the world at the time and, as it was so widely seen, it naturally caught the attention of manufacturer Martin-Baker.
At the time Jim lived next door to de Havilland test pilot Bob Sowray in Hatfield, Hertfordshire, and on this day both of their wives had gone clothes shopping in London. Bob had mentioned that he was due to fly a Lightning that day, and later Jim’s children asked if they could go to watch the flight. Although Jim was a photographer, he wouldn’t usually take his camera on an outing like this. However, on this occasion he decided he would get a picture of his neighbour flying. The camera he took had just two exposures on it.
The spectators found a good vantage point close to the threshold of de Havilland’s Hatfield airfield, and waited for the Lightning to return. As XG332 came in on final approach, at around 200ft high its nose pitched up and the pilot ejected. The Lightning had become uncontrollable after an engine fire had weakened a tailplane actuator.
Jim took one photo soon after the ejection, and as can be seen caught the pilot inverted with his parachute still unopened and the Lightning plummeting earthwards close to him. The tractor driver heard the bang of the ejection seat and is seen after quickly turning around to look at what was going on, no doubt very relieved he wasn’t working further over in the field. Jim’s one remaining picture recorded the subsequent plume of thick black smoke after the jet had crashed.
Fortunately the pilot survived after coming down in a greenhouse full of tomatoes. He suffered multiple breaks of his limbs and cuts from the shower of glass that rained down on him after going through the roof of the greenhouse. However, it hadn’t been Bob Sowray at the controls; he had decided to let fellow test pilot George Aird carry out the flight.
At the time Jim lived next door to de Havilland test pilot Bob Sowray in Hatfield, Hertfordshire, and on this day both of their wives had gone clothes shopping in London. Bob had mentioned that he was due to fly a Lightning that day, and later Jim’s children asked if they could go to watch the flight. Although Jim was a photographer, he wouldn’t usually take his camera on an outing like this. However, on this occasion he decided he would get a picture of his neighbour flying. The camera he took had just two exposures on it.
The spectators found a good vantage point close to the threshold of de Havilland’s Hatfield airfield, and waited for the Lightning to return. As XG332 came in on final approach, at around 200ft high its nose pitched up and the pilot ejected. The Lightning had become uncontrollable after an engine fire had weakened a tailplane actuator.
Jim took one photo soon after the ejection, and as can be seen caught the pilot inverted with his parachute still unopened and the Lightning plummeting earthwards close to him. The tractor driver heard the bang of the ejection seat and is seen after quickly turning around to look at what was going on, no doubt very relieved he wasn’t working further over in the field. Jim’s one remaining picture recorded the subsequent plume of thick black smoke after the jet had crashed.
Fortunately the pilot survived after coming down in a greenhouse full of tomatoes. He suffered multiple breaks of his limbs and cuts from the shower of glass that rained down on him after going through the roof of the greenhouse. However, it hadn’t been Bob Sowray at the controls; he had decided to let fellow test pilot George Aird carry out the flight.
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Serious if not bone question but why/how would a de Havilland TP (HSA) fly an English Electric (BAC) machine?
Weapon integration?
Weapon integration?
Last edited by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU; 19th Jul 2013 at 00:32.
Originally Posted by GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
Serious if not bone question but why/how would a de Havilland TP (HSA) fly an English Electric (BAC) machine?
Weapon integration?
Reynolds and GeeRam,
Great posts, many thanks!
As for
...this is more accurate than the hyperbole about the Mosquito (excellent though the latter was). The P-51 did reverse the fortunes of the 8th AF's campaign - as soon as it commenced operations as an escort fighter, the unsustainable loss rates of, for example, the Schweinfurt raids began to fall markedly, and the ability of the Americans to bomb targets across Europe at will was no longer in doubt (admittedly there were still heavy losses on occasion - usually when the bombers found themselves without their escort).
Great posts, many thanks!
As for
the NA Mustang won the war
Tabs please !
While it's a interesting discussion, no single aircraft type saved Britain.
It's an interesting thought.
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Thanks Reynoldsno1 for going to all the trouble of writing out the info about the photograph. It's interesting reading the story behind it all. How lucky the photographer only had two exposures left on the camera film and he did not use them up before the crash.
It's an interesting thought
For a start, it takes more than a year (ie Nov 40 to Dec 41) to build aircraft carriers and decent aircraft to go on them, and turn those components into a strike capability (HMG please take note
). So while the Japs were no doubt impressed by Taranto, it only served to re-assure them that their existing development of carrier strike would be worthwhile.Besides, although noone knew it at the time of Pearl Harbour, the Germans had already lost the war by that stage (in fact, as soon as they launched Barbarossa). While the American contribution certainly hastened the end of the war in Europe, the outcome was inevitable so Pearl Harbour made no real difference. And by the time of Pearl Harbour (in fact, by the time of Taranto), there was no credible threat (of invasion) to Britain hence no need to 'save' Britain.
If any aircraft saved Britain, it would be either the Battle of Britain fighters or the Coastal Command types which defeated the U-Boats.
Last edited by TorqueOfTheDevil; 19th Jul 2013 at 10:20.
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agreed.......
and although the pilots ground crew etc etc made a vast contribution if they'd all been flying Tomahawks, Blenheims & Defiants etc it wouldn't have made any difference as to how brave & skilled they were
and although the pilots ground crew etc etc made a vast contribution if they'd all been flying Tomahawks, Blenheims & Defiants etc it wouldn't have made any difference as to how brave & skilled they were
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 19th Jul 2013 at 10:32.
Tabs please !
It's one thing to have a carrier force and quite another to use it effectively. The Swordfish demonstrated that it could be used with devastating effect when combined with surprise. Up to that point, it had never been done on such a scale.
Whether Pearl Harbour was the key turning point or not, I guess Churchill was more qualified than most to make that judgement. Anyway, it's a purely academic point. Thankfully Barbarossa was a tactical blunder which failed through a number of miscalculations, the weather etc. etc. The original question was about a particular aircraft having made the greatest contribution. Which aircraft brought back the captured enigma machine and code books ? Does anyone know ?
Whether Pearl Harbour was the key turning point or not, I guess Churchill was more qualified than most to make that judgement. Anyway, it's a purely academic point. Thankfully Barbarossa was a tactical blunder which failed through a number of miscalculations, the weather etc. etc. The original question was about a particular aircraft having made the greatest contribution. Which aircraft brought back the captured enigma machine and code books ? Does anyone know ?
What the Japanese should have done was to ignore the United States completely. They had USA sanctions against them but their best course of action would have been to cement the Axis Pact and invade Russia.
Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.
The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.
The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.
The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.
Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.
Their troops in Manchuria would have driven northwards and cut the Trans Siberia Railway. This would have isolated the Russian Far East Army which was pivotal in halting the German advance in the west. In fact they were kept in the Far East until Pearl Harbour for this very reason. They could then put the Sino Japanese war on hold, if not by truce but by inactivity. Chiang Kai Shek would immediately, knowing that the Communists would be having supply problems from the Soviet Union, go at Mao’s throat and clear up his own problem.
The Wehrmacht, unhampered by the Far East Army would have continued their advance east of Moscow leaving Leningrad and Stalingrad withering on the vine.
The United States would have no reason to join in the war. In fact the Japanese actions against Russia would be admired by many Republicans. The problems for Roosevelt would come later.
The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.
The Germans, meanwhile would have advanced into Southern Asia and may have been in a position to advance down the eastern side of the Persian Gulf thereby putting them in a position to isolate India and Ceylon.
Luckily for us the Japanese went for Pearl Harbour.
...except that the Germans would still have come unstuck in the 8 (or is it 9?) time zones east of Moscow, Russian Far East Army or not! And that's ignoring the worsening (for them) situation in North Africa. And the Japs could hardly ignore the USA because of the Philippines.
They did most of this and tried the rest. Losing at Coral Sea certainly hindered their plans in the Solomons, but had the Americans not offered battle (because they weren't in the war) it is far from certain that the Japs could have besieged Australia and NZ effectively.
What is lucky is that Hitler was so deluded as to declare war on the USA - without that, Roosevelt might have concentrated his attention on the Pacific and we would all be speaking Russian!
His views at the time make perfect sense but he lacked the benefit of hindsight! Of course he was massively relieved to have the Americans dragged into the war, but he couldn't possibly have guessed how badly the German gamble in Russia was already backfiring.
Or Strategic? Or Grand Strategic?
The Japanese, now being fully paid up members of the Axis would now be at war with the UK. Using Germany’s right of conquest over France and Holland they would occupy Indo China and Sumatra. These would be used as a base to overrun Singapore and the Solomon Islands which would ring fence Australia and New Zealand making their troops unavailable to the UK.
What is lucky is that Hitler was so deluded as to declare war on the USA - without that, Roosevelt might have concentrated his attention on the Pacific and we would all be speaking Russian!
Whether Pearl Harbour was the key turning point or not, I guess Churchill was more qualified than most to make that judgement
Barbarossa was a tactical blunder
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" it is far from certain that the Japs could have besieged Australia and NZ effectively."
I think they could have done Aus, not sure on NZ but why would you bother ?
The Japs would have needed their supply lines to catch up
and of course kick Australia out of the Islands to the north.
I think they could have done Aus, not sure on NZ but why would you bother ?
The Japs would have needed their supply lines to catch up
and of course kick Australia out of the Islands to the north.
Don't forget the P51 was designed to a British specification and became successful only when fitted with a British designed engine.
Why has no one mentioned the Beaufighter. That was multi role almost as much as the Mosquito (as far as I know it was never an airliner!)
Why has no one mentioned the Beaufighter. That was multi role almost as much as the Mosquito (as far as I know it was never an airliner!)
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For interest, theres a workshop / warehouse within the complex of what used to the Gillow furniture works in Lancaster which was constructed using Mosquito wing spars as the roof timbers
They're still there. Not sure if they could be used though....I've not seen them myself but a friend has.
Gillows made Mozzie parts during WWII.
They're still there. Not sure if they could be used though....I've not seen them myself but a friend has.
Gillows made Mozzie parts during WWII.