New Falklands War Brewing
Tabs please !
It appears that The Belgrano was heading towards the exclusion zone after all. IMHO as a civvy, if you send out a warship in time of war then you know exactly what you're getting into no matter which way you happen to be pointing at the time. If the watertight doors were indeed open as has been reported elsewhere then the consequences were inevitable.
Belgrano was heading to the Falklands, secret papers reveal - Telegraph
Belgrano was heading to the Falklands, secret papers reveal - Telegraph
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By the very definition this vessel was a war - - - ship and to me it is academic what course the thing was steering or its destination.
Hopefully she was closed up at the appropriate damage control level but in reality she had no chance of survival!! The escorting vessels were extremely fortunate they did not end up sharing the sea bed with the Belgrano.
I understand the ship was hit by the much trusted type 48 torpedo but did they explode under or in the vessel?
To put things in perspective about damage control, this is what one torpedo can do to what I describe as a frigate (I believe the footage refers to it as something larger)
That ship was a carcass, she was not carrying any munitions or any explosive type materials, the boilers were not operating, and no fuel in her tanks. I dread to think of how much further damage could have been caused by internal explosions.
A warship is not a healthy location to be, especially when those nasty submarines are lurking just beneath the waves!! Air attacks is one thing, but sneaky torpedoes knocking on your door without any warning is a whole different ball game... yes the incoming torpedo should be heard but in reality there is very little chance of avoiding the unavoidable
Respect to all those that fought in this conflict and long may the rights of those that live on those islands be preserved.
Hopefully she was closed up at the appropriate damage control level but in reality she had no chance of survival!! The escorting vessels were extremely fortunate they did not end up sharing the sea bed with the Belgrano.
I understand the ship was hit by the much trusted type 48 torpedo but did they explode under or in the vessel?
To put things in perspective about damage control, this is what one torpedo can do to what I describe as a frigate (I believe the footage refers to it as something larger)
That ship was a carcass, she was not carrying any munitions or any explosive type materials, the boilers were not operating, and no fuel in her tanks. I dread to think of how much further damage could have been caused by internal explosions.
A warship is not a healthy location to be, especially when those nasty submarines are lurking just beneath the waves!! Air attacks is one thing, but sneaky torpedoes knocking on your door without any warning is a whole different ball game... yes the incoming torpedo should be heard but in reality there is very little chance of avoiding the unavoidable
Respect to all those that fought in this conflict and long may the rights of those that live on those islands be preserved.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Belgrano was hit by 2 Mk8 ** torpedoes which were impact weapons and would not have the effect shown in the clip. Still very nasty though. Under the keel weapons were perfected much later and are usually one shot kills on anything short of aircraft carrier.
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Hi Naval Eye thanks for the update... It all happened after my time, although sadly I lost a few good friends...
I had certainly NEVER seen anything like those 'Under Keel' weapons and I'm not surprised about the end results you describe. I cannot begin to imagine the carnage they would cause.. Thankfully my imagination is not that vivid
I had certainly NEVER seen anything like those 'Under Keel' weapons and I'm not surprised about the end results you describe. I cannot begin to imagine the carnage they would cause.. Thankfully my imagination is not that vivid
But during her infamous BBC exchange with the schoolteacher Diana Gould who confronted her on the sinking Mrs Thatcher made an intriguing reference to the report saying: "One day, all of the facts, in about 30 years time, will be published." Mrs Gould died earlier this month.
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IMHO only a complete moron would argue that Argentine forces should have been granted freedom to manoeuvre in any location at all, let alone in the South Atlantic. Again, only my opinion but only the extremely naive would argue that hostile forces, engaged in, or supporting, the occupation of British sovereign territory should not be engaged due to their location relative to a circle of arbitrary size based on a fairly arbitrary lat/long.
To me it is completely incoherent that the (Argentine) fervour which greeted the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands was intense and nationwide and yet a proportion of people think that valid military targets existed solely within the TEZ.
What, for example, would we think now of a successful SF raid on the Super-E or C-130 base?
To me it is completely incoherent that the (Argentine) fervour which greeted the Argentine invasion of the Falkland Islands was intense and nationwide and yet a proportion of people think that valid military targets existed solely within the TEZ.
What, for example, would we think now of a successful SF raid on the Super-E or C-130 base?
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The South Korean vessel Cheonan was hit by a similar weapon, split in two and sunk with loss of 40 lives.
May their souls rest in peace.
This hot air about the sinking of this cruiser is just that and sadly she was a victim, instead of a victor.. Apologies for the wording
For the information of Orca
Originally Posted by Argentine Rear-Admiral Allara who commanded the Belgrano’s task group
After that message of 23 April, the entire South Atlantic was an operational theatre for both sides. We, as professionals, said it was just too bad that we lost the Belgrano.
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Glojo,
My comments were aimed at the ill informed, not the Argentine military who, from extensive reading but no personal experience, would appear to have acted from beginning to end with professionalism, courage and honour.
My comments were aimed at the ill informed, not the Argentine military who, from extensive reading but no personal experience, would appear to have acted from beginning to end with professionalism, courage and honour.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
I think it fair to say that my 48 was front to back or should that be back to front. An awfully big bang and I can well understand how that South Korean vessel was blown in half!!
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Good morning Orca,
Please do not think for one second I was in disagreement with your valid points, I submitted that post to corroborate your very valid point.
The Admiral in Command of the Belgrano Battle Group also agrees with you. To me this issue is simply trying to open up wounds that are best left were they belong and as you rightly say, we should respect all those of both sides and let by-gones be by-gones. RESPECT
As Brian Clough so eloquently summed up the silliness of a clause in the off-side law in football....
Or to translate,
Any warship or military aircraft that belongs to an opposing force should always be fair game unless there are extenuating circumstances. Could that 200 mile exclusion zone possibly have been a delaying tactic used to make Argentine Forces think twice before getting too close to the islands? (question)
I strongly object to how Great Britain is still being portrayed (or even betrayed) over this situation. To me I like to think that the Falkland islanders have a choice, they can vote to remain how they are governed or become a part of Argentina! Their choice, their decision, but if they opt to still fly the Union Flag then so be it. there choice, not mine, but whilst that flag flies then boo hoo to anyone that dares to interfere.. Is that telling them are what?
Regarding your description of the video clip I posted, if you look at all that 'muck' coming out of the funnel, that highlights the forces at work from that explosion. Just imagine the carnage if those boilers were operating? Steam at a temperature of possibly in excess of 800 degrees Fahrenheit?? and a pressure in excess of 500pounds all being let loose in that explosion. I have given very rough figures but hopefully they are not too far out (do I have history of getting things front to back?)
Bottom line is that a torpedo is going to spoil your day....
Permission to whittle?
I was on exercise looking for a US submarine that was trying to attack us. I was off-watch and on the flight deck talking to a colleague who confidently predicted there would be a successful attack and the torpedo would come from a certain direction.......... Within thirty minutes of that prediction, there we were on the upper deck looking at the trail of a torpedo as it hurtled under our ship and it had come from the exact direction that my colleague had rightly predicted!!
An aircraft we can detect, an incoming exocet we can detect.. We can detect an incoming torpedo but getting out of its path is a whole different ball game and not for this forum.
Hopefully the threat of our silent service will be enough to deter any future unlawful occupation of the Falklands
Please do not think for one second I was in disagreement with your valid points, I submitted that post to corroborate your very valid point.
Originally Posted by Orca
IMHO only a complete moron would argue that Argentine forces should have been granted freedom to manoeuvre in any location at all, let alone in the South Atlantic. Again, only my opinion but only the extremely naive would argue that hostile forces, engaged in, or supporting, the occupation of British sovereign territory should not be engaged due to their location relative to a circle of arbitrary size based on a fairly arbitrary lat/long.
As Brian Clough so eloquently summed up the silliness of a clause in the off-side law in football....
If a player is not interfering with play then he shouldn't be on the pitch.
Any warship or military aircraft that belongs to an opposing force should always be fair game unless there are extenuating circumstances. Could that 200 mile exclusion zone possibly have been a delaying tactic used to make Argentine Forces think twice before getting too close to the islands? (question)
I strongly object to how Great Britain is still being portrayed (or even betrayed) over this situation. To me I like to think that the Falkland islanders have a choice, they can vote to remain how they are governed or become a part of Argentina! Their choice, their decision, but if they opt to still fly the Union Flag then so be it. there choice, not mine, but whilst that flag flies then boo hoo to anyone that dares to interfere.. Is that telling them are what?
Regarding your description of the video clip I posted, if you look at all that 'muck' coming out of the funnel, that highlights the forces at work from that explosion. Just imagine the carnage if those boilers were operating? Steam at a temperature of possibly in excess of 800 degrees Fahrenheit?? and a pressure in excess of 500pounds all being let loose in that explosion. I have given very rough figures but hopefully they are not too far out (do I have history of getting things front to back?)
Bottom line is that a torpedo is going to spoil your day....
Permission to whittle?
I was on exercise looking for a US submarine that was trying to attack us. I was off-watch and on the flight deck talking to a colleague who confidently predicted there would be a successful attack and the torpedo would come from a certain direction.......... Within thirty minutes of that prediction, there we were on the upper deck looking at the trail of a torpedo as it hurtled under our ship and it had come from the exact direction that my colleague had rightly predicted!!
An aircraft we can detect, an incoming exocet we can detect.. We can detect an incoming torpedo but getting out of its path is a whole different ball game and not for this forum.
Hopefully the threat of our silent service will be enough to deter any future unlawful occupation of the Falklands
Navaleye - a most interesting observation about under-the-keel torpedoes. Given that the US and Germany had torpedoes intended for UTK fuzing in WW2, which were unreliable, and the RN used the Mk8 in the Falklands because the Tigerfish was not ready/reliable, and reliable UTK came in with the later TF, MK48 ADCAP and Spearfish... that has to be one of the longest pursuits of a specific weapon capability on record.
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Argentine protesters burn Union flag outside British Embassy in Buenos Aires as tensions rise over Falklands
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Trouble this time is,
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct!
- Militants demand Argentine government severs diplomatic links with Britain
- Comes after Cameron accuses South American country of being colonialist
Frenzied Argentine mobs torched Union flags outside the British Embassy in Buenos Aires today in an ugly protest over the Falkland Islands.More than 100 militants marched on the building as they called on President Cristina Fernandez de Kirchner’s government to sever diplomatic links with the UK.Furious demonstrators bellowed insults about David Cameron and held up banners saying: ‘England out of the Falklands’ and ‘Break ties now’.
They took to the streets after the British Prime Minister accused Argentina of being ‘colonialist’ for repeatedly demanding sovereignty over the disputed South Atlantic territory. He was told mockingly: 'You need history lessons.'The spat revived the rhetoric of the 1980s amid growing rifts ahead of the 30th anniversary of the Falklands War.
Foreign Secretary William Hague yesterday sought to play down the escalating row during a pre-planned visit to Brazil by insisting the UK was eager to open a ‘new chapter in history’ with Latin America.But he risked inflaming tensions in the region after revealing Prince Harry would attend an event on Rio de Janeiro’s iconic Sugar Loaf mountain in March – the month before the April 2 landmark of Argentina invading the Falklands.
They took to the streets after the British Prime Minister accused Argentina of being ‘colonialist’ for repeatedly demanding sovereignty over the disputed South Atlantic territory. He was told mockingly: 'You need history lessons.'The spat revived the rhetoric of the 1980s amid growing rifts ahead of the 30th anniversary of the Falklands War.
Foreign Secretary William Hague yesterday sought to play down the escalating row during a pre-planned visit to Brazil by insisting the UK was eager to open a ‘new chapter in history’ with Latin America.But he risked inflaming tensions in the region after revealing Prince Harry would attend an event on Rio de Janeiro’s iconic Sugar Loaf mountain in March – the month before the April 2 landmark of Argentina invading the Falklands.
Trouble this time is,
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct!
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Trouble this time is,
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct!
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct!
1. We invite Boris Johnson to become the new minister of "Making War on Argentina".
2. We solicit the offices of Barak Obama to lend his political support (while he's in the mood).
3. Item (2) will solve your problem c)!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
2. We solicit the offices of Barak Obama to lend his political support (while he's in the mood).
How Obama Thinks
"Trouble this time is,
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct! "
BS!
Reality Check:
a)Don't need Thatcher as it was her complacency and negligence that led to the war in the first place.
b) Nonsense. There are more South American countries that have territorial disputes WITH Argentina.
c) UK military is now ensconced in more than infantry Company strength on the islands and is massively more capable and battle hardened than we were in 82.
a) No Maggie at the helm
b) More Latin American countries now supporting the Argies
c) Our military is now defunct! "
BS!
Reality Check:
a)Don't need Thatcher as it was her complacency and negligence that led to the war in the first place.
b) Nonsense. There are more South American countries that have territorial disputes WITH Argentina.
c) UK military is now ensconced in more than infantry Company strength on the islands and is massively more capable and battle hardened than we were in 82.
"c) UK military is now ensconced in more than infantry Company strength on the islands and is massively more capable and battle hardened than we were in 82."
No doubt similar things were being said about Singapore in 1941! Complacency and all that...!
No doubt similar things were being said about Singapore in 1941! Complacency and all that...!