Should we be afraid?
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Should we be afraid?
Defence Minister Purnomo Yusgiantoro revealed plans for something of a revolution in the capability of Indonesia's military by buying 180 Sukhoi fighters by 2024, to join the 10 Su-30MKs and Su-27s already in service. An across-the-board rejuvenation of the force in the decades ahead would be one dividend from maintaining the current fast pace of economic growth, Mr Yusgiantoro said.
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If their past record is anything to go by I would say that long term no threat.
The Air Force has a long history of poorly maintained fleets and Indonesian Air Force bases used to stocked with plenty of aircraft that would never fly again.
Secondly I would doubt if they could afford to buy, maintain and have parts support for them.
As for the pilots I would doubt if most could get the best out of them
regards
Col
The Air Force has a long history of poorly maintained fleets and Indonesian Air Force bases used to stocked with plenty of aircraft that would never fly again.
Secondly I would doubt if they could afford to buy, maintain and have parts support for them.
As for the pilots I would doubt if most could get the best out of them
regards
Col
I spent 2 years with the Malaysians who are just up the road. Lots of different types, most in a poor state of repair and others just mothballed. Very few airworthy. I suspect the Indonesians will be the same.
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herkman, interesting take.
Many many years ago AURI 'moved' its bombers from around Djakarta and Surabaja well the east to Biak. Now we saw this as a defensive withdrawal away from us; we were based on your base at Butterworth.
Your Air Commander at Darwin, OTHO, saw it an an offensive deployment which would threaten Darwin. We didn't know this at the time. Not only that, he only found out by word of mouth when someone came through from Singapore.
At the time we replanned our missions to cover Biak and then recover to Darwin. For one reason or another Darwin was never told of this plan. It could have been in case they prepared to receive us thus blowing the opsec and we obviously didn't trust even Top Secret briefing to the Air Commander lest his actions were influenced by this knowledge.
Yes, we saw them as no real threat although they did seem to have a push towards one of our bombers with a Mig 21. They left the Hastings and Friendships that were doing leaflet drops on their own.
Many many years ago AURI 'moved' its bombers from around Djakarta and Surabaja well the east to Biak. Now we saw this as a defensive withdrawal away from us; we were based on your base at Butterworth.
Your Air Commander at Darwin, OTHO, saw it an an offensive deployment which would threaten Darwin. We didn't know this at the time. Not only that, he only found out by word of mouth when someone came through from Singapore.
At the time we replanned our missions to cover Biak and then recover to Darwin. For one reason or another Darwin was never told of this plan. It could have been in case they prepared to receive us thus blowing the opsec and we obviously didn't trust even Top Secret briefing to the Air Commander lest his actions were influenced by this knowledge.
Yes, we saw them as no real threat although they did seem to have a push towards one of our bombers with a Mig 21. They left the Hastings and Friendships that were doing leaflet drops on their own.
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Should we be afraid? Speaking from a UK point of view, No. Indonesia is no more capable of attacking the United Kingdom than Sadam Hussein was.
On the other hand, Indonesia does pose a threat to some of our friends and, in the case of Brunei in particular, there is a British Army garrison there as part of a defence treaty with the Bruneians. "Confrontation" began with the Indonesian inspired Brunei Revolt in 1962, so we should certainly pay attention.
On the other hand, Indonesia does pose a threat to some of our friends and, in the case of Brunei in particular, there is a British Army garrison there as part of a defence treaty with the Bruneians. "Confrontation" began with the Indonesian inspired Brunei Revolt in 1962, so we should certainly pay attention.
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Secondly I would doubt if they could afford to buy, maintain and have parts support for them.
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I spent 2 years with the Malaysians who are just up the road. Lots of different types, most in a poor state of repair and others just mothballed. Very few airworthy. I suspect the Indonesians will be the same.
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The above comments make for interesting reading.
Ref the move of the aircraft to Biak. The remains of the old wartime airfield at Biak was designed for heavily laden/underpowered bombers during WWII, very suitable for Russian products. It’s a good distance from Australia. If the fighters had been based at Merauke that would have been a different kettle of fish.
Surely the Indonesians see the Chinese to the north as a real threat. The Chinese government shows all the characteristics of a bully with its neighbours, and is spending ample funds on armaments. Viewed economically right now, China’s economy is growing at an enviable rate compared with Western countries. Internal unrest is increasing as people see hope for a better future through work and a strong economy.
Maybe the comparison with the pre-second war Japanese ‘Zaibatsu’ companies may not be quite correct, but China has a great need for natural resources, especially steel and oil. To maintain internal peace it will go to great lengths to assure continuity of supply of basic materials.
Noting China’s bullying attitude to its neighbours and immature political views; it must be viewed as a major threat to Indonesia and South East Asia in general.
There are several disputed areas in the South China Sea, more so as there are oil deposits in those areas. Why just grab that, when you have p*ssed off the other claimants by taking it over, you may as well just grab a bit more land and resources. There’s no one around that has the military strength and political will to do anything about it.
Ref the move of the aircraft to Biak. The remains of the old wartime airfield at Biak was designed for heavily laden/underpowered bombers during WWII, very suitable for Russian products. It’s a good distance from Australia. If the fighters had been based at Merauke that would have been a different kettle of fish.
Surely the Indonesians see the Chinese to the north as a real threat. The Chinese government shows all the characteristics of a bully with its neighbours, and is spending ample funds on armaments. Viewed economically right now, China’s economy is growing at an enviable rate compared with Western countries. Internal unrest is increasing as people see hope for a better future through work and a strong economy.
Maybe the comparison with the pre-second war Japanese ‘Zaibatsu’ companies may not be quite correct, but China has a great need for natural resources, especially steel and oil. To maintain internal peace it will go to great lengths to assure continuity of supply of basic materials.
Noting China’s bullying attitude to its neighbours and immature political views; it must be viewed as a major threat to Indonesia and South East Asia in general.
There are several disputed areas in the South China Sea, more so as there are oil deposits in those areas. Why just grab that, when you have p*ssed off the other claimants by taking it over, you may as well just grab a bit more land and resources. There’s no one around that has the military strength and political will to do anything about it.
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piggyback, do you know anything else about Biak? I know it had 10 parallel runways and many were overgrown by 1964.
We understood that all 16 TU-16 had dispersed there. I susoect that the threat from the TU-16 was over rated as far as land attack as it was a maritime anti-shipping aircraft. Do you know if it was capable of bombing in AURI service?
Our intel said it would not be effective as they had not been noted to drop bombs. At that time we didn't drop any bobs either.
We understood that all 16 TU-16 had dispersed there. I susoect that the threat from the TU-16 was over rated as far as land attack as it was a maritime anti-shipping aircraft. Do you know if it was capable of bombing in AURI service?
Our intel said it would not be effective as they had not been noted to drop bombs. At that time we didn't drop any bobs either.
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piggybank
I have to agree with your thoughts re Chinese bullying in the region; I fear this will lead to trouble in the future, though perhaps not all out war. Quite a bit of sabre rattling would be more likely !
I have to agree with your thoughts re Chinese bullying in the region; I fear this will lead to trouble in the future, though perhaps not all out war. Quite a bit of sabre rattling would be more likely !
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Pontius, you know more than me.
I passed through Biak first time September 1975 clasping a four month old maintenance license. I saw only two parallel runways at that time. I went straight to the swamps so had no time to look around. After a few months I did a bit of ‘looking around’ but more for the old Japanese coral cave that apparently had 600 men trapped and burnt out with aviation fuel, but that is digressing.
At another airfield, at Tarakan I did see plenty of old Russian equipment, helicopters and old radar pushed into heaps in the areas to the side of the airstrip. Maybe the change in military power at that time meant no spares were coming in to do necessary maintenance.
Ref TU-16 I have no knowledge but do question your dates.
West Papua was annexed in 1969, so it would not have been Russian or Indonesian aircraft if your dates are accurate. I worked several times with Indonesians that had been trained in Russian military institutions and would answer that if the bombs could have been fitted, yes. The men at that time were a better tradesman than is available now to the Indonesian military. They were capable of thinking as an individual without asking outside opinion and quality of work was excellent.
I passed through Biak first time September 1975 clasping a four month old maintenance license. I saw only two parallel runways at that time. I went straight to the swamps so had no time to look around. After a few months I did a bit of ‘looking around’ but more for the old Japanese coral cave that apparently had 600 men trapped and burnt out with aviation fuel, but that is digressing.
At another airfield, at Tarakan I did see plenty of old Russian equipment, helicopters and old radar pushed into heaps in the areas to the side of the airstrip. Maybe the change in military power at that time meant no spares were coming in to do necessary maintenance.
Ref TU-16 I have no knowledge but do question your dates.
West Papua was annexed in 1969, so it would not have been Russian or Indonesian aircraft if your dates are accurate. I worked several times with Indonesians that had been trained in Russian military institutions and would answer that if the bombs could have been fitted, yes. The men at that time were a better tradesman than is available now to the Indonesian military. They were capable of thinking as an individual without asking outside opinion and quality of work was excellent.
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No definitely Nov 64, it was a target remember. Didn't have to have been Indonesian of course, they could have just gone there! Bit like Iraqi AF went to Iran.
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Badgers over Australia
A bit of history that might be of interest.
When Confrontation with Indonesia emerged, Australia deployed reinforcements for Sabre elements to Butterworth and Singapore and sent an air defence detachment to Darwin. The Avon Sabre was of course a day interceptor armed with Sidewinder and 30mm cannon but only a gun-sight radar.
A bit later, we were directed to do night intercept training. The old GCI radar at Darwin would position the interceptor about 2NM line astern of the target - with accuracy sometimes plus or minus 2NM - and both aircraft lights out. The interceptor would then begin a gentle climb to co-altitude around 40,000 feet while softly pedalling rudder to get a Sidewinder acquisition tone. There was a match box size meter on the left hand side of the cockpit which gave missile ranging parameters so the idea was to close on the target using this indicator until in gun ranging radar proximity and then move in to identify the target. Just how we were supposed to get positive ID in inky blackness was never explained; maybe drop the landing gear to turn on the landing light and fall out of the sky! We had a couple of instances of calling 'lights on' and being near between red and green nav light halos, then bunting and going supersonic downhill into total darkness. Bloody scary and we soon convinced hierarchy too dangerous.
Some years later, a now deceased friend who became Air Attache at Jakarta was informed by an old Indonesian Air Force pilot over beers that he had seen the lights of Alice Springs from a Badger.
When Confrontation with Indonesia emerged, Australia deployed reinforcements for Sabre elements to Butterworth and Singapore and sent an air defence detachment to Darwin. The Avon Sabre was of course a day interceptor armed with Sidewinder and 30mm cannon but only a gun-sight radar.
A bit later, we were directed to do night intercept training. The old GCI radar at Darwin would position the interceptor about 2NM line astern of the target - with accuracy sometimes plus or minus 2NM - and both aircraft lights out. The interceptor would then begin a gentle climb to co-altitude around 40,000 feet while softly pedalling rudder to get a Sidewinder acquisition tone. There was a match box size meter on the left hand side of the cockpit which gave missile ranging parameters so the idea was to close on the target using this indicator until in gun ranging radar proximity and then move in to identify the target. Just how we were supposed to get positive ID in inky blackness was never explained; maybe drop the landing gear to turn on the landing light and fall out of the sky! We had a couple of instances of calling 'lights on' and being near between red and green nav light halos, then bunting and going supersonic downhill into total darkness. Bloody scary and we soon convinced hierarchy too dangerous.
Some years later, a now deceased friend who became Air Attache at Jakarta was informed by an old Indonesian Air Force pilot over beers that he had seen the lights of Alice Springs from a Badger.
As much as people dismiss the idea that somehow the Indonesians could buy these, maintain them and have a viable air force I would caution people that money talks.
Just because they did something stupid in the past doesn't mean they will do so in the future.
Acquiring the technology is easy but given the state of military salaries around the world it wouldn't be that hard to persuade young "retired" experienced personnel to move to a sunny place with mega nice salaries and perks.
Its not as if members of NATO forces have not taken on assignments as "trainers" with Govt sanction with various militaries around the world often as an assistance to an arms deal.
Just because they did something stupid in the past doesn't mean they will do so in the future.
Acquiring the technology is easy but given the state of military salaries around the world it wouldn't be that hard to persuade young "retired" experienced personnel to move to a sunny place with mega nice salaries and perks.
Its not as if members of NATO forces have not taken on assignments as "trainers" with Govt sanction with various militaries around the world often as an assistance to an arms deal.
A few Indonesian Tu-16 crew images at the following.
Tu 16, Pesawat Pembom Jarak Jauh & Terbesar AURI | Bpn16's Blog
Tu-16 in Indonesian museum.
Photos: Tupolev Tu-16 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
TJ
Tu 16, Pesawat Pembom Jarak Jauh & Terbesar AURI | Bpn16's Blog
Tu-16 in Indonesian museum.
Photos: Tupolev Tu-16 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net
TJ
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RACEDO is correct. Assuming that our Indon brothers can't do anything because of their tainted past is a wrong key assumption. One only has to look at the Korean War to see that "advisors" can change the battle from rag-tag to competent. At the end of that conflict we didn't win that one but rather a stalemate back where it started! Victory in a sense I suppose.
Sun Tzu is always right.....
Sun Tzu is always right.....
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Of course, looking at the parlous state of much of the ADF's current high tech inventory, the reverse argument (that just because we used to be able to do it right in the past, we'll not necessarily always be able to do it right in the future) holds true too.
Food for thought...
Food for thought...
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TEEJ, thank you for the links. This extract:
Not infrequently, they "play" until you reach a small island of the Andaman Islands in the Bay of Bengal which separates India and Myanmar.
is interesting as we used to do night navigation exercises around the Andaman Islands at that time.
Equally that they could operate from Medan only 160 miles from our base.
Not infrequently, they "play" until you reach a small island of the Andaman Islands in the Bay of Bengal which separates India and Myanmar.
is interesting as we used to do night navigation exercises around the Andaman Islands at that time.
Equally that they could operate from Medan only 160 miles from our base.