EK XMAS ROSTER
Rex, then we will agree to disagree, the definition defines what acclimatised is (taking the first sentence into account), nowhere does it say where, define where or indeed describe the locality, it merely states what it states. The second sentence explains how to become unacclimatised, again i.e. Finish a duty period outside a 2 HR time band.
It's not ambiguous, it's very clear.
Harry has it for once, the company assumes that after leave based on its OWN definition you will be unacclimatised , the fact of your acclimatised state or otherwise is defined specifically by the first sentence...and confirmed if you comply within the bounds of the second sentence. So if I fly off on leave to the UK in the summer, but return from Nice after 3 weeks, am I acclimatised or not? What say I spend 3 days in the UK then a night in France travelling and only have a night and a half in Dubai ? Or the other way around?
The answer is that's it's not workable to reasonably figure it out, and it's why the definition includes the words "duty period"
It's not ambiguous, it's very clear.
Harry has it for once, the company assumes that after leave based on its OWN definition you will be unacclimatised , the fact of your acclimatised state or otherwise is defined specifically by the first sentence...and confirmed if you comply within the bounds of the second sentence. So if I fly off on leave to the UK in the summer, but return from Nice after 3 weeks, am I acclimatised or not? What say I spend 3 days in the UK then a night in France travelling and only have a night and a half in Dubai ? Or the other way around?
The answer is that's it's not workable to reasonably figure it out, and it's why the definition includes the words "duty period"
Last edited by Monarch Man; 25th Nov 2015 at 15:03.
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So you guys think that when it comes down to it the Habibi's in the office are going to side with you over semantics? Doesn't matter if your interpretation is legally correct, it's their interpretation. They clearly dislike us pilots immensely by every thread that's currently on this page, so why would they agree with you in a loss of face situation?
Monarch, fair enough let's agree to disagree.
I leave you with this last thought-
Forget about ULR
Say you are on the 330 fleet and spend a month in Dubai. I would agree you are acclimatised.
Then you go to KL, Then, for the purposes of duty limits, you are not acclimatised for the way back.
Vica Versa, say I spent a month on leave in Aus. Fly back to Dubai, get back to Dubai for the non Ulr KL trip 12 hours before. When I calculate my Maximum FDP (SECTION 7.6.2) for the day- do I use the Two or more crew - Acclimatised table(7.6.2.1)? or the unacclimatised table?(7.6.2.2).
I would use the unacclimatised table, but clearly you would use the acclimatised one.
I leave you with this last thought-
Forget about ULR
Say you are on the 330 fleet and spend a month in Dubai. I would agree you are acclimatised.
Then you go to KL, Then, for the purposes of duty limits, you are not acclimatised for the way back.
Vica Versa, say I spent a month on leave in Aus. Fly back to Dubai, get back to Dubai for the non Ulr KL trip 12 hours before. When I calculate my Maximum FDP (SECTION 7.6.2) for the day- do I use the Two or more crew - Acclimatised table(7.6.2.1)? or the unacclimatised table?(7.6.2.2).
I would use the unacclimatised table, but clearly you would use the acclimatised one.
Rex all correct except the last example. Did you leave DXB acclimatised heading off on leave or not? By definition if your last duty period ended in DXB and you were acclimatised at that time, you will remain such until the end of your next FDP duty outside a band that is 2hrs removed from DXB. So you should use the acclimatised FDP limit.
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It's really clear. Your interpretation of the definition of 'acclimatised' is totally correct. DXB is never mentioned. However in the ULR section it clearly states you must be acclimatised to DXB, and need 3 local nights.
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I have a problem with the hour you guys fly. You end the year with 100 hours in December. You fly 95 hours i a regular month. You fly 70-80 hours in a leave month, IF you get your leave.
How many hours are you allowed to fly a year?
If the numbers are correct, most of you should have at least December off.
How many hours are you allowed to fly a year?
If the numbers are correct, most of you should have at least December off.
I can't believe I'm still at this but...
Avrodamo, you are wrong, it clearly states
"Prior to operating a ULR flight departing Dubai, all crew members shall be acclimatised"
It does not say you must be acclimatised to DXB, and that's the key part of the wording, it's deliberate as its written to give flexibility and clarity for this statement.
"For the day of actual operation a crew member who remains acclimatised during leave is not restricted by c. above"
Which coming full circle means you have to understand what it means to be acclimatised or not, and thus refer to the definition.
Clear as day now?
Avrodamo, you are wrong, it clearly states
"Prior to operating a ULR flight departing Dubai, all crew members shall be acclimatised"
It does not say you must be acclimatised to DXB, and that's the key part of the wording, it's deliberate as its written to give flexibility and clarity for this statement.
"For the day of actual operation a crew member who remains acclimatised during leave is not restricted by c. above"
Which coming full circle means you have to understand what it means to be acclimatised or not, and thus refer to the definition.
Clear as day now?
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MM
Reading I think I can see where confusion is coming in. It's the prior to leave section in the statement. You could be right, but like others I know people who have had warnings. Has wording changed??
Reading I think I can see where confusion is coming in. It's the prior to leave section in the statement. You could be right, but like others I know people who have had warnings. Has wording changed??
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You guys are all on the other thread moaning about not having enough days off on your rosters, then on those rare occasions you do have spare time you're arguing about a paragraph in the OM-A on a forum
plus they just pushed our EAT back by another 15 mins.
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Alan Pardew
WTF happened against Sunderland. Better not be repeated against the Geordies on Saturday or else I'll get really angry.
It's an interesting point that has been discussed. The point that you immediately un-acclimatise upon departure from DXB on TZ 3hrs wide is complete rubbish. Science says a 1 hour shift per day. On a lot of flights EK operates on min rest turns you cannot hand on heart say you acclimatise to local time.
At my gaff we have a 2 crew Europe to USA variation working EU-US at Night and US-Europe day time. Crews don't acclimatise until they have 50 hours rest in USA (so that counts most of EK slips out me thinks)so they stay on EU TZ and enjoy a very advantageous FDP on the return day time / un-factored
This is UK AOC, approved FRMS, and the acclimatisation regs mirror EU Sub Part Q and soon to be EASA FTL (which is very complicated, wonder if GCAA will follow)
This is much more realistic than CAP371.
And on these particular rotations the dreaded 18-30hr rest periods are scientifically proven to be the bees knees.
Spooky innit
Up the Palace
WTF happened against Sunderland. Better not be repeated against the Geordies on Saturday or else I'll get really angry.
It's an interesting point that has been discussed. The point that you immediately un-acclimatise upon departure from DXB on TZ 3hrs wide is complete rubbish. Science says a 1 hour shift per day. On a lot of flights EK operates on min rest turns you cannot hand on heart say you acclimatise to local time.
At my gaff we have a 2 crew Europe to USA variation working EU-US at Night and US-Europe day time. Crews don't acclimatise until they have 50 hours rest in USA (so that counts most of EK slips out me thinks)so they stay on EU TZ and enjoy a very advantageous FDP on the return day time / un-factored
This is UK AOC, approved FRMS, and the acclimatisation regs mirror EU Sub Part Q and soon to be EASA FTL (which is very complicated, wonder if GCAA will follow)
This is much more realistic than CAP371.
And on these particular rotations the dreaded 18-30hr rest periods are scientifically proven to be the bees knees.
Spooky innit
Up the Palace
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Guys you are wrong.
Forget the OMA for the moment, it is written with you being on duty in mind.
Acclimatisation definitions come from Medical research which states that if you spend 3 local nights in a time zone greater than 2 hours away from where you were originally acclimatised then you are now acclimatised to that time zone. End Of.
So irrespective of whether on duty or leave if you have been away from DXB in said time zones for 3 local nights you are not acclimatised to DXB.
Do you think the company gives you 3 days off after leave before a ULR out of the goodness of their hearts??
Forget the OMA for the moment, it is written with you being on duty in mind.
Acclimatisation definitions come from Medical research which states that if you spend 3 local nights in a time zone greater than 2 hours away from where you were originally acclimatised then you are now acclimatised to that time zone. End Of.
So irrespective of whether on duty or leave if you have been away from DXB in said time zones for 3 local nights you are not acclimatised to DXB.
Do you think the company gives you 3 days off after leave before a ULR out of the goodness of their hearts??
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You guys arguing about who's OM-A is bigger for two pages is one of the reasons we find ourselves so low in managements eye.
As mentioned earlier, the manual is up to interpretation. If you've made it far enough to get through a month or so online, then you KNOW which way management will interpret it. End of story. You want to fight it, go ahead. Good luck.
I'm sick of flying long haul patterns with Low Cost rosters. ...since this thread is about xmas rosters: B777 LHS, 100hrs, 8 days off. Definitely not going to be able to make it all the way through Dec Roster.
Much apologies to the guys on Reserve.
Since the OM-A has been referenced so many times on this thread, I'll refer you nerds to the reference where its my duty to remove myself when I'm unfit. hows that? I won't mention whose duty it is to give me an adequate roster so that I can achieve rest enough to fulfill my safety sensitive job effectively and efficiently.
As mentioned earlier, the manual is up to interpretation. If you've made it far enough to get through a month or so online, then you KNOW which way management will interpret it. End of story. You want to fight it, go ahead. Good luck.
I'm sick of flying long haul patterns with Low Cost rosters. ...since this thread is about xmas rosters: B777 LHS, 100hrs, 8 days off. Definitely not going to be able to make it all the way through Dec Roster.
Much apologies to the guys on Reserve.
Since the OM-A has been referenced so many times on this thread, I'll refer you nerds to the reference where its my duty to remove myself when I'm unfit. hows that? I won't mention whose duty it is to give me an adequate roster so that I can achieve rest enough to fulfill my safety sensitive job effectively and efficiently.
Last edited by CaptainChipotle; 26th Nov 2015 at 13:19. Reason: Grammar police
short flights long nights
How the hell is a 100 hours long haul with 8 days off considered safe? Or humanely possible? Things seem to have got really out of control.
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The OMA Ch 7 has changed a number of times - tweaked, here an there. I would have to agree with MM, it is clearly defined. The only issue is whether you want to fight over it or not.
One interesting change that not many seem to have noticed is the that to be acclimatized you now need an uninterrupted nights sleep. Previously you could fly a night turn, return to Dubai and still be acclimatized! So you could be sent off on a ULR later based on being acclimatized.
Now you require the nights sleep. Rostering response has been to roster a ULR followed by 2 days off (used to be 3) then roster a NIGHT turn, since you are unacclimatized and have a LONGER duty day!!! Makes no sense biologically but it's 'legal' Take a look at the 777 rosters and 90% are rostered with that night turn after a ULR.
There is no concern for what is healthy or safe.
One interesting change that not many seem to have noticed is the that to be acclimatized you now need an uninterrupted nights sleep. Previously you could fly a night turn, return to Dubai and still be acclimatized! So you could be sent off on a ULR later based on being acclimatized.
Now you require the nights sleep. Rostering response has been to roster a ULR followed by 2 days off (used to be 3) then roster a NIGHT turn, since you are unacclimatized and have a LONGER duty day!!! Makes no sense biologically but it's 'legal' Take a look at the 777 rosters and 90% are rostered with that night turn after a ULR.
There is no concern for what is healthy or safe.
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You are absolutely crazy to accept a night turn on the third night after a ULR. You are finally settling into a night sleeping pattern after your body has been completely screwed by a 10-12 hour time zone change; ready to fall asleep at 9 or 10pm, and they send you off for a 12 hour night duty to India and back.
This has to be the most dangerous rostering pattern this company pushes.
On a number of occasions I've simply refused that duty due to fatigue. I will not put myself at risk of an accident by doing that sort of shyte. And many more people should refuse it too.
This has to be the most dangerous rostering pattern this company pushes.
On a number of occasions I've simply refused that duty due to fatigue. I will not put myself at risk of an accident by doing that sort of shyte. And many more people should refuse it too.
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As short as EK is of pilots every pilot should call in sick at least once a month.
What other options do we have? The company doesn't listen to us or even care about us but my health is not worth their conditions anymore.
What other options do we have? The company doesn't listen to us or even care about us but my health is not worth their conditions anymore.
Exactly LHR rain, couldn't have put it better myself. I don't advocate calling sick as a tool, but make sure you protect yourself first and foremost as the company has no interest in your well-being at all.
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Acclimatised my a**e...!
Much enjoyed all the banter about OM(A) and acclimatisation, but the bit in the definitions, first sentence, never seems to get sufficient attention, i.e. ".... and is able to take uninterrupted nights sleep...."
Well folks, can I just say on that basis the FDM, Crewing or whoever is offering the tea and bikkies will never know just how uninterrupted or otherwise your night's sleep was. Indeed on that basis, personally having last had an uninterrupted night's sleep circa January 2007, I shall never ever ever ever be acclimatised by definition whilst working for this bunch of monkeys...!! Put that in your shisha and smoke it.........!
Well folks, can I just say on that basis the FDM, Crewing or whoever is offering the tea and bikkies will never know just how uninterrupted or otherwise your night's sleep was. Indeed on that basis, personally having last had an uninterrupted night's sleep circa January 2007, I shall never ever ever ever be acclimatised by definition whilst working for this bunch of monkeys...!! Put that in your shisha and smoke it.........!