Korean Air coming to DXB September 23-24th
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Korean...
I worked there for 8 years. Probably THE best commuting contract on the planet, unless you're lucky to be able to get on with one of the Chinese carriers out of Beijing and get based in YVR.
Korean might not pay that well but their equipment is excellent. Extremely high maintenance standards. The training is a bit of a hassle to get through but once you're done, you're left alone.
In the 8 years, I never had my days off violated once. Always got Christmas off. Yes, you have the option of saving your 2 days leave per month and taking 24 somewhere later in the year or you can add them to your blocked days off each month to get 11 days off a month.
Business class travel to and from your base. No hassles.
Sure the pay could always be more but it was a very good gig.
I worked there for 8 years. Probably THE best commuting contract on the planet, unless you're lucky to be able to get on with one of the Chinese carriers out of Beijing and get based in YVR.
Korean might not pay that well but their equipment is excellent. Extremely high maintenance standards. The training is a bit of a hassle to get through but once you're done, you're left alone.
In the 8 years, I never had my days off violated once. Always got Christmas off. Yes, you have the option of saving your 2 days leave per month and taking 24 somewhere later in the year or you can add them to your blocked days off each month to get 11 days off a month.
Business class travel to and from your base. No hassles.
Sure the pay could always be more but it was a very good gig.
Retirement, hopefully?
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Good question
Changes to a tax treaty combined with another opportunity saw a number of us move on. Was it a good move? Not so sure it was although retirement was coming and there were other interests.
Despite all the rumors, KAL remains the best commuting contract around and worth the effort.
Despite all the rumors, KAL remains the best commuting contract around and worth the effort.
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AV8R….
One things that I have never been able to get my head around is hearing a few horror stories of KAL here on the prune…. Realizing some of it's nonsense, but generally there's a lot of truth to what's said here. Can you address these for me please:
1. There is/was a scenario where you would get all the way thru training, take your final line check and not pass… and then get terminated.. with few other options since you've already resigned your previous airline, just for failing a check ride?
2. You get reported by your local KAL FO for not following SOP's to the "T" such as not turning on the landing lights in the exact proper by-the-book sequence, thus causing troubles and a visit to the chief's office?
3. FO's who essentially put up a brick wall between them and you (left seater) for the entire 14 hour flight to wherever because you're taking his position?
4. A Korean aviation Fed who fails expats quite routinely and due to this, they get fired from KAL?
5. Astronaut physicals in which they always look for a way to fail you on your medical?
I find it hard to believe some guys wrote this stuff over the years but it has always remained in my head about KAL and to be honest, made me steer clear.
Thanks for answering if you might know.
Kap
One things that I have never been able to get my head around is hearing a few horror stories of KAL here on the prune…. Realizing some of it's nonsense, but generally there's a lot of truth to what's said here. Can you address these for me please:
1. There is/was a scenario where you would get all the way thru training, take your final line check and not pass… and then get terminated.. with few other options since you've already resigned your previous airline, just for failing a check ride?
2. You get reported by your local KAL FO for not following SOP's to the "T" such as not turning on the landing lights in the exact proper by-the-book sequence, thus causing troubles and a visit to the chief's office?
3. FO's who essentially put up a brick wall between them and you (left seater) for the entire 14 hour flight to wherever because you're taking his position?
4. A Korean aviation Fed who fails expats quite routinely and due to this, they get fired from KAL?
5. Astronaut physicals in which they always look for a way to fail you on your medical?
I find it hard to believe some guys wrote this stuff over the years but it has always remained in my head about KAL and to be honest, made me steer clear.
Thanks for answering if you might know.
Kap
Join Date: Apr 2002
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The US majors pay in the area of $24000USD/month.
The amount of lift. the amount of revenue a wide body aircraft generates on a monthly basis justifies this type of salary, everywhere.
The US carriers do not pay a single US penny more than what they think the pilots are worth. In fact, the pilots are worth more, but the number above is what the carriers could live with.
The amount of lift. the amount of revenue a wide body aircraft generates on a monthly basis justifies this type of salary, everywhere.
The US carriers do not pay a single US penny more than what they think the pilots are worth. In fact, the pilots are worth more, but the number above is what the carriers could live with.
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Answers to Questions
1. There is/was a scenario where you would get all the way thru training, take your final line check and not pass… and then get terminated.. with few other options since you've already resigned your previous airline, just for failing a check ride?
2. You get reported by your local KAL FO for not following SOP's to the "T" such as not turning on the landing lights in the exact proper by-the-book sequence, thus causing troubles and a visit to the chief's office?
3. FO's who essentially put up a brick wall between them and you (left seater) for the entire 14 hour flight to wherever because you're taking his position?
4. A Korean aviation Fed who fails expats quite routinely and due to this, they get fired from KAL?
5. Astronaut physicals in which they always look for a way to fail you on your medical?
I find it hard to believe some guys wrote this stuff over the years but it has always remained in my head about KAL and to be honest, made me steer clear.
2. You get reported by your local KAL FO for not following SOP's to the "T" such as not turning on the landing lights in the exact proper by-the-book sequence, thus causing troubles and a visit to the chief's office?
3. FO's who essentially put up a brick wall between them and you (left seater) for the entire 14 hour flight to wherever because you're taking his position?
4. A Korean aviation Fed who fails expats quite routinely and due to this, they get fired from KAL?
5. Astronaut physicals in which they always look for a way to fail you on your medical?
I find it hard to believe some guys wrote this stuff over the years but it has always remained in my head about KAL and to be honest, made me steer clear.
1. Yes. The problem was cultural. Not necessarily theirs, but ours. When a pilot finishes his sim. training, he/she is assumed to know just about everything (I know..but..). Once into line training, the candidate is supposed to assume control (especially if you're already type rated and have held a command prior to come to KAL)and know the whole operation. If you ask a question of your national check pilot early in your training, he will see it as that you don't know anything and mark that down on the training record. That one remark may have been on day 1 of line training. You may be assigned to a couple of different LCPs during your line training. The later LCPs would never utter a positive comment on your training form due to the 'loss of face' of the first LCP you were with. Especially true if the first LCP was quite senior in status. As a result, you go through to the last check ride and find you didn't pass because of the first remark, several weeks ago.
Lesson? Don't ask questions.
2. Yes. KAL has had a terrible safety reputation. After the Guam crash, there was a concerted effort to change the safety culture and get CRM and SOPs into the mainstream. It really worked well. The company began to hire you guys and gals from the aviation university in Seoul. As a result, the culture did change and the problem was that the Expat pilots, who had come from various other airlines, didn't embrace the culture in a positive way. Not their fault. They were doing what was taught of them.
3. The Brick Wall. Yes. I had that experience. Once! I was working with an ex-air force pilot. He was a bit of a trouble maker. I had a very good relationship with the Chief Pilot. I took the step of hauling his ass up to him. It worked and I had no further problems. Maybe I was lucky. The brick wall is there but I've been away for a while and don't know how it exists now.
4. There was a CAA inspector like that when I was there. Had no clue on what he was doing. I was on a check to SFO and he came along. During our layover there was a labor strike by the pilots in Korea. My LCP called me up and asked what we should do as he wasn't part of the union. I told him he essentially was in command.....we left. The 'Fed' didn't want to go. We left him in SFO. I'm not sure if he ever made it back.
5. Medicals: That used to be the case...gawd...show up at 06:00 and go through the testing...and it took all morning. There was a reason my blood pressure went off the clock! I don't believe that is the case any more...maybe for the initial medical however; I think they've relaxed things. It was quite an experience each 6 months. It took about 2 years to actually figure things out.
I hope it helps!
Still a good gig.
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The training , once with the Koreans , will humiliate even the most optimistic sole .
The salary is just that. My mate has been on the same amount for last 5 years. No raise . No incriminate. No OT.
Very little english spoken.
Cant think why anyone would consider it unless time off in a block is so important to you.
You can skive uk tax though !
The salary is just that. My mate has been on the same amount for last 5 years. No raise . No incriminate. No OT.
Very little english spoken.
Cant think why anyone would consider it unless time off in a block is so important to you.
You can skive uk tax though !
737 roster
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Thanks for the info. Due to various reasons such as those listed above, I was advised by every single person I spoke with who have advised me against going there.
Even then I was still willing to consider at least applying, for the experience if nothing else... Until the absolute deal breaker was revealed; No upgrades for expats!! I have heard as an FO on the NG that I can't even expect to move to a 777.
Can you confirm that 777AV8R?
Even then I was still willing to consider at least applying, for the experience if nothing else... Until the absolute deal breaker was revealed; No upgrades for expats!! I have heard as an FO on the NG that I can't even expect to move to a 777.
Can you confirm that 777AV8R?
Last edited by bravo45; 13th Aug 2015 at 11:41.
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As I Understand it....
Bravo', I still believe that to be the case. No upgrades. It would be good to talk to one of the Agencies on it. CCL is probably the best if you're going that route.
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US carriers do NOT pay $24,000 per month simply just like that. You don't make that on getting hired. Not even half (much, much less in fact).
You'll have to put in hard graft for 20 odd years and have some luck on your side to make that sort of cash with US airlines. Will go out on a whim and say that only a small percentage of folks earn anywhere near that.
These other gigs (china/asia) pay the cash straight off the bat. So it's not really a fair comparison.
APC has all the figures on the pay. To earn $24,000 you'll have to put in about 20 years to get close to that. Not knocking it - just saying it how it is. US airlines and pay just don't stack up. But then a lot of other things they have do (eg benefits, union etc).
You'll have to put in hard graft for 20 odd years and have some luck on your side to make that sort of cash with US airlines. Will go out on a whim and say that only a small percentage of folks earn anywhere near that.
These other gigs (china/asia) pay the cash straight off the bat. So it's not really a fair comparison.
APC has all the figures on the pay. To earn $24,000 you'll have to put in about 20 years to get close to that. Not knocking it - just saying it how it is. US airlines and pay just don't stack up. But then a lot of other things they have do (eg benefits, union etc).
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For American Airlines 12 year captain which is the top of the scale:
Year A380 747 767-400 777-200 777-300 A330 787 A350 767- B757-200 B767-300 A319 A320 A321 MD80 B737 E190
12 299 299 285 285 285 285 285 285 242 242 242 228 228 228 228 228 149
The guarantee is 71 hours per month. No flight pay in the U.S. just your hourly pay plus per diem and overtime,
plus duty and trip rigs, and night, and international pay. So for a 777 captain, $285.00 per hour x's 71 = $20,235 per month.
The thing in the U.S. is you don't have to work as hard for the money!!
BDD
Year A380 747 767-400 777-200 777-300 A330 787 A350 767- B757-200 B767-300 A319 A320 A321 MD80 B737 E190
12 299 299 285 285 285 285 285 285 242 242 242 228 228 228 228 228 149
The guarantee is 71 hours per month. No flight pay in the U.S. just your hourly pay plus per diem and overtime,
plus duty and trip rigs, and night, and international pay. So for a 777 captain, $285.00 per hour x's 71 = $20,235 per month.
The thing in the U.S. is you don't have to work as hard for the money!!
BDD
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American Airlines
Total: 11357
Active: 10157
Furloughed: 1200
Most junior captain hired: MIA 737 Nov 98
Mandatory retirements:
2013 - 58
2014 - 83
2015 - 112
2016 - 135
2017 - 190
2018 - 300
2019 - 418
2020 - 535
2021 - 580
2022 - 647
2023 - 704
2024 - 717
2025 - 713
2026 - 705
2027 - 595
2028 - 512
2029 - 474
2030 - 414
2031 - 434
2032 - 385
2033 - 368
Source - airlinepilotcentral.com
Total: 11357
Active: 10157
Furloughed: 1200
Most junior captain hired: MIA 737 Nov 98
Mandatory retirements:
2013 - 58
2014 - 83
2015 - 112
2016 - 135
2017 - 190
2018 - 300
2019 - 418
2020 - 535
2021 - 580
2022 - 647
2023 - 704
2024 - 717
2025 - 713
2026 - 705
2027 - 595
2028 - 512
2029 - 474
2030 - 414
2031 - 434
2032 - 385
2033 - 368
Source - airlinepilotcentral.com
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Once you're working there it's not much different from other asian airline jobs and better than most. The commuting works well. Don't expect the pay to change anytime soon. Down route hotels are adequate but not 5 star.
There is no Korean tax paid in respect of your salary. The only Korean tax deducted is on the per deims you are paid while in Korea which is negligible. So study the Dual Taxation Agreement your country has with Korea to avoid unpleasant surprises. Hint: the wording in the "ship or aircraft operated in international traffic" paragraph is crucial.
There is no Korean tax paid in respect of your salary. The only Korean tax deducted is on the per deims you are paid while in Korea which is negligible. So study the Dual Taxation Agreement your country has with Korea to avoid unpleasant surprises. Hint: the wording in the "ship or aircraft operated in international traffic" paragraph is crucial.
Agree with 777AV8R, had seven years there with only three schedule changes! Quite a few pilots fail the training phase, I think this has more to do with attitude than ability, if you go there just learn everything their way, never say in "Airline XXX we used to do it this way", once through training they leave you alone, always had Business Class coming and going, you nominate your requested days off in advance so generally you can be around for Birthdays, Weddings, Graduations etc. Still one of the best commuting contracts going, some guys have been there over twenty years.
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Any informed opinions on the best agency to apply through? TAS, CCL, Rishworth, etc?
There's probably a thread on the Far East forum but that's so far to walk...
There's probably a thread on the Far East forum but that's so far to walk...