What is going on at EK
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What is going on at EK
While pondering the going ons at Emirates with some buddies we had some questions we couldn't answer so I'm throwing it out on pprune.
A-380s
11 airlines have the 380 (not including the 2 airlines that just received theirs last week) and 10 of those airlines have varying degrees of dislike, to we wish we didnt buy them, to cant wait to get rid of the airplane. None of those 10 airlines are going to buy anymore.
One airline (guess which one) loves the airplane and can't get enough of them. I know we are not industry leaders when it comes to pay and conditions but what is the big difference? Why does Emirates love it when the vast majority of the industry dislike it? It will be interesting to see how the other two gulf carriers who just received them like the Big Bird.
Money
Emirates is very profitable but when compared to,some of the US carriers you have to wonder where all the money is going.
AA made about $2.4 Billion in a quarter (yes that is B for billion and yes that is for a 90 day period), UAL made approx $1.7 B and Delta brought up the rear with Only $1.3 B.
Emirates with their 13% labor costs, fantastic aircraft utility rate, no government agency to regulate them and no labor unions made $1 Billion in a whole year. Where is all the money going?
Is this the reason the company is squeezing us so hard so more money can go out the back door?
I joined almost two years ago and it has been a constant slide to the bottom. I know pilots that have been here longer has experienced a much steeper and drastic decline. How much more are they going to turn the screws on us?
We are most definitely underpaid and overworked. A dangerous cocktail going forward. What is this airline going to look like in a year? Not a pretty site.
A-380s
11 airlines have the 380 (not including the 2 airlines that just received theirs last week) and 10 of those airlines have varying degrees of dislike, to we wish we didnt buy them, to cant wait to get rid of the airplane. None of those 10 airlines are going to buy anymore.
One airline (guess which one) loves the airplane and can't get enough of them. I know we are not industry leaders when it comes to pay and conditions but what is the big difference? Why does Emirates love it when the vast majority of the industry dislike it? It will be interesting to see how the other two gulf carriers who just received them like the Big Bird.
Money
Emirates is very profitable but when compared to,some of the US carriers you have to wonder where all the money is going.
AA made about $2.4 Billion in a quarter (yes that is B for billion and yes that is for a 90 day period), UAL made approx $1.7 B and Delta brought up the rear with Only $1.3 B.
Emirates with their 13% labor costs, fantastic aircraft utility rate, no government agency to regulate them and no labor unions made $1 Billion in a whole year. Where is all the money going?
Is this the reason the company is squeezing us so hard so more money can go out the back door?
I joined almost two years ago and it has been a constant slide to the bottom. I know pilots that have been here longer has experienced a much steeper and drastic decline. How much more are they going to turn the screws on us?
We are most definitely underpaid and overworked. A dangerous cocktail going forward. What is this airline going to look like in a year? Not a pretty site.
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All very true, you can only stretch the elastic band so far before it snaps, let's see in twelve months. That will also be about the time I'm looking to leave after twelve years. It's all sliding down hill, slowly but surely.
Leave system is appalling, roster system is appalling, per diems are appalling and the salary isn't getting better.
Twelve months, we'll see.
Leave system is appalling, roster system is appalling, per diems are appalling and the salary isn't getting better.
Twelve months, we'll see.
1: It would be nice if you would provide some substance to back those numbers. It is certainly within the realms of possibility that BA, LH, EY and QR will order more, and once Air China finds they can no longer buy 747s, they might spring for a few as well. Even more so when Airbus fits the kite with a new team of donks, bringing the much-wanted CASM figure below that of the new 777.
2: US airlines derive a sizable portion of their revenue from ancillary sales, e.g. checked baggage, food, drink etc. All this is still included in the ticket price of EK, which is something most long-haul travelers appreciate. Secondly, EK is a long-haul airline; US airlines are predominantly domestic, one in particular exclusively so, with an international presence. Operating long-haul internationally is rather more expensive than domestic, with max. sector lengths of around 6 hours, particularly when compared to the US. Further, EK's traditional market is hauling people on and off the sub-continent, a large portion of which does not command the disposal income of your average US citizen. This in turn drives yields down, meaning you'll earn less for every passenger carried. Do note, this has nothing to do with the price of a ticket, but everything to do with the cost of producing that seat. In other words, it's about whether you earn 100 bucks on a 500 bucks ticket, or 95 bucks on a 1000 bucks ticket. Furthermore, being a domestic airline the US big-4 are deriving the vast majority off their narrow-body fleet, pottering about on 2 hour sectors. This enables an aircraft to make around 3 round trips per day, carrying a total of around 800 passengers (6 x 150). Compare that to flying a big jet with 400 seats for 10 hours, carrying the same 800 pax a day but at higher cost. And last, but certainly not least, through a series of Chapter 11 re-organisations, most US airlines (with just one exception among the majors) have financially raped their creditors, employees and retirees over and over and over again. To my knowledge, EK has continuously delivered a positive return on investment to it's owners, and have never been even close to filing for bankruptcy.
2: US airlines derive a sizable portion of their revenue from ancillary sales, e.g. checked baggage, food, drink etc. All this is still included in the ticket price of EK, which is something most long-haul travelers appreciate. Secondly, EK is a long-haul airline; US airlines are predominantly domestic, one in particular exclusively so, with an international presence. Operating long-haul internationally is rather more expensive than domestic, with max. sector lengths of around 6 hours, particularly when compared to the US. Further, EK's traditional market is hauling people on and off the sub-continent, a large portion of which does not command the disposal income of your average US citizen. This in turn drives yields down, meaning you'll earn less for every passenger carried. Do note, this has nothing to do with the price of a ticket, but everything to do with the cost of producing that seat. In other words, it's about whether you earn 100 bucks on a 500 bucks ticket, or 95 bucks on a 1000 bucks ticket. Furthermore, being a domestic airline the US big-4 are deriving the vast majority off their narrow-body fleet, pottering about on 2 hour sectors. This enables an aircraft to make around 3 round trips per day, carrying a total of around 800 passengers (6 x 150). Compare that to flying a big jet with 400 seats for 10 hours, carrying the same 800 pax a day but at higher cost. And last, but certainly not least, through a series of Chapter 11 re-organisations, most US airlines (with just one exception among the majors) have financially raped their creditors, employees and retirees over and over and over again. To my knowledge, EK has continuously delivered a positive return on investment to it's owners, and have never been even close to filing for bankruptcy.
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AB's parent company is EADS. EADS is somewhat owned by… guess who? Of course the whale has to do well here! We're becoming a vertically alligned company- we're almost at the point where we make our own airframes, not unlike the automobile/ truck company that makes their own steel.
Not GM, Volkswagen, BMW or Mercedes… it's Tata.
Anyway, we can all moan and groan about T&C's but to the company's credit, my wife was recently diagnosed with a serious illness and the EK umbrella has opened up quite nicely, thank you very much.
We'd still be waiting another 16 MONTHS for the catscan and petscan with socialized health care where we're from, but we're almost done- from diagnosis to completion- in nine weeks!
That's the part of the package few realize is there.
Go ahead, make a quarter mill on a 320 in China- you're on your own if you or your family members get sick. Good luck!
Not GM, Volkswagen, BMW or Mercedes… it's Tata.
Anyway, we can all moan and groan about T&C's but to the company's credit, my wife was recently diagnosed with a serious illness and the EK umbrella has opened up quite nicely, thank you very much.
We'd still be waiting another 16 MONTHS for the catscan and petscan with socialized health care where we're from, but we're almost done- from diagnosis to completion- in nine weeks!
That's the part of the package few realize is there.
Go ahead, make a quarter mill on a 320 in China- you're on your own if you or your family members get sick. Good luck!
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Troff….
Well said!
As much as I like to dig at EK every now and then, I must say I've heard of more than a few colleagues who've had some pretty serious medical issues with themselves and with family members, and each and every time, EK has indeed come through for them pretty much unconditionally and offered as much assistance as was needed.
This seems to be one area of the entire operation they don't seem to skimp on.
Good on EK for this!!
K
Well said!
As much as I like to dig at EK every now and then, I must say I've heard of more than a few colleagues who've had some pretty serious medical issues with themselves and with family members, and each and every time, EK has indeed come through for them pretty much unconditionally and offered as much assistance as was needed.
This seems to be one area of the entire operation they don't seem to skimp on.
Good on EK for this!!
K
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On the other hand, in the course of my wifes treatment for a serious and life threatening illness the medical accounting department called me in to discuss their preferred option of her medical treatment continuing with the 'socialised health care' program of our home country.
Following some argument they did eventually approve the treatment and eventually reimburse my bills and she made a full recovery.
Following some argument they did eventually approve the treatment and eventually reimburse my bills and she made a full recovery.
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Montencee:
Very glad to hear it all turned out ok!!
Tightseat:
As far as illnesses, I know some have had issues over the years of mold in their apartments or villas yet if you read the fine print, evidently is NOT a reason why you can move out according to the housing department. This mold affects different people in different ways…. some hardly at all and some rather seriously…. but again: Not a reason the housing office has to move you.
K
Very glad to hear it all turned out ok!!
Tightseat:
As far as illnesses, I know some have had issues over the years of mold in their apartments or villas yet if you read the fine print, evidently is NOT a reason why you can move out according to the housing department. This mold affects different people in different ways…. some hardly at all and some rather seriously…. but again: Not a reason the housing office has to move you.
K
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Whilst I'm genuinely happy to hear about the positive medical outcomes of my fellow EK pilots wives and families, lets not forget something...
The EK "medical insurance" is exactly that...an in-house medical insurance in which YOU pay a PREMIUM for your wife and children.
Like any other insurance (Bluecross, BUPA etc), there are limits, exclusions, locations of treatment facilities etc.
So, please don't run away with the notion that EK has "gone the extra mile" to help your wife or yourself - while in fact, any other paid insurance would have done the same.
Personally, I'd be happier if EK dropped their in-house money making insurance (which it most definately is...) and offered us a private, non company invasive medical insurance.
The EK "medical insurance" is exactly that...an in-house medical insurance in which YOU pay a PREMIUM for your wife and children.
Like any other insurance (Bluecross, BUPA etc), there are limits, exclusions, locations of treatment facilities etc.
So, please don't run away with the notion that EK has "gone the extra mile" to help your wife or yourself - while in fact, any other paid insurance would have done the same.
Personally, I'd be happier if EK dropped their in-house money making insurance (which it most definately is...) and offered us a private, non company invasive medical insurance.
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It will be interesting if and when the results of the staff survey are published.
EK was an absolutely excellent job. The rosters were stable, days off were usable any many, overtime limit was fair for a long haul operator. The airline was profitable and shared those profits fairly among its employees.
The 92 hours pm have made "quality of life" a redundant phrase, rostering restrictions, principally max 6 then 5 off in a row appear purely spiteful.
As far as I can see we are now flying ULR with a short haul rostering pattern.
On a recent ULR trip all four of us were working on exit plans. Now I know talk is cheap but the plans were pretty detailed for just mind games.
From a personal point of view I honestly loved here 8 years ago, now, sadly I hate it.
EK could be the best airline job in the world but through bizarre management and greediness it is now NOT the place to come or stay.
EK was an absolutely excellent job. The rosters were stable, days off were usable any many, overtime limit was fair for a long haul operator. The airline was profitable and shared those profits fairly among its employees.
The 92 hours pm have made "quality of life" a redundant phrase, rostering restrictions, principally max 6 then 5 off in a row appear purely spiteful.
As far as I can see we are now flying ULR with a short haul rostering pattern.
On a recent ULR trip all four of us were working on exit plans. Now I know talk is cheap but the plans were pretty detailed for just mind games.
From a personal point of view I honestly loved here 8 years ago, now, sadly I hate it.
EK could be the best airline job in the world but through bizarre management and greediness it is now NOT the place to come or stay.
short flights long nights
100 percent agree to the above.
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Surely, half the battle must be that when EK fuels up at home, they pay what 10% of what every other airline pays for Jet A1? That's a huge savings. One of the benefits of being the national carrier of a giant oil well.
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And who, may I ask, is paying the other 90%. There is no fuel refinery in the UAE. All fuel is imported. EK must have some very generous fuel refining "brothers" to be paying only "what 10%"
J.
J.
short flights long nights
Oh please stop. EK does have it's faults. But I will protect it when it comes to this free fuel rubbish.
EK pays market rates for its fuel. Out of some ports we tanker fuel into Dubai because it's cheaper to buy there than in Dubai.
This free fuel thing is a total myth. Please stop believing it.
EK pays market rates for its fuel. Out of some ports we tanker fuel into Dubai because it's cheaper to buy there than in Dubai.
This free fuel thing is a total myth. Please stop believing it.
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SMT, that's not entirely true that US are domestic only. Most of the big 3 domestic feed comes from their regional airline partners, by most, I mean 50-60%. So that leaves the remaining 40-50% to be divided up by the mainline fleet. A good portion of that is operating internationally. Most int'l flights don't charge for food, only bags. As far as the debate on that topic it all comes down to the marketplace, the consumer. THIS is what the consumer ultimately wanted, meaning an "unbundled" product. US consumers typically have no loyalty to any given carrier and are often members of all FF programs. They shop in the following manner 1) On-time ranking 2) Price 3) the rest, the fluff.
Nobody really wants a crappy US domestic meal, so why provide it? On the int'l flights, meals are still provided. SWA will start up Central America flights this year and so we'll see if the public choses price over amenities. I'm guessing they'll chose price. If SWA starts to dominate, the US carriers will drop the food on those segments in order to match price. Sure the public will whine about it, but like I said, it's ultimately what they wanted.
Continental was the last hold out to serve meals? It made no difference in terms of customer retention. Sure people would say they preferred CAL over the others, but they'd still fly American, UAL (prior to merger) or DAL just to save 8 bucks on ticket. So CAL had to ditch the free meal service on domestic as well. Hawaiian still serves meals but they typically dominate their markets and are sort of a niche carrier.
With respect to bags... nobody likes it but, again, it is what the customer wanted, by default of their lack of loyalty to any given carrier and their propensity to chase around the last buck on tickets. The airlines tested the waters by first charging $15 for the first bag, then $25, then that same amount for the second bag. Now it's graduated up to $45 per bag. Ouch! But US airline managements also did one thing carriers like EY and QR haven't bothered to consider, capacity discipline. IOW, they keep demand just ahead of supply (of airline seats), which gives them pricing power. They don't order mass amounts of aircraft then guess where to fly them. Instead they surgically pick their future markets and study whether it makes sense to order growth planes. By restricting capacity, all 3 benefit. It's basic business sense.
Don't like the bag charges? You can fly SWA and take all day to get to your destination because of their point-to-point network. But since time is more valuable than money, the core of the big 3 carriers customers still want to fly via the hub-and-spoke system. And seeing how there's a shortage of seats, the big 3 can finally charge a cost-plus rate for the lift. Those who want to travel with too much crap can pay for it. Those who don't can still bring their carry-on. So the big 3 in the US have the ticket price just low enough to be competitive and keep the government off their backs, while competing with the LCCs, but if you want more on your pizza, you pay for it. Want a meal? Pay. Want to bring 10 pairs of shoes for that weekend trip? Pay. Like anything else in life. Want to save money? Eat before you get on board and travel light (what most people do).
As far as the OPs questions, if I may add my $.02. I flew in the M.E. and S. Asia on contract jobs for years, so I'm a bit more qualified to comment than the average Yank who isn't presently flying for EK, EY, or QR. The issues is labor... ME carriers and some S. Asian carriers lack proper labor protections afforded by traditional unions. As long as that's the case there is nobody going to bat for you while you're out flying the line. The only thing assuring your career satisfaction is supply and demand. As long as there is an endless supply of applicants to take your place, which there is, mgmt will undermine you at every turn, with respect to how it deals with pilots, etc. Sure they'll pay heed when they turnover reaches an unusual level. And no they're not going to create all that hostile an atmosphere for fear of pissing off the pilots. But the overall changes in terms of upward progression will always be far less than what the pilots were expecting and deserve. It is what it is. Contrary to popular belief, unions don't kill an airline. Look at UAL, DAL, and AAL.
The only way out is to do what thousands of EK aviators before you have done and vote with your feet. Otherwise, relax, take comfort in the fact that there are still quite a few good attributes to the EK career, and enjoy your time there. Just don't expect much in the way of positive change.
NOTE: I'm not trying to denigrate EK. I have many buddies there who really like it. But having worked at too many non-union carriers in the past, I prefer the union-protection for my career over the offerings of a EK/ QR setup. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Each has it's strengths. Its all about what works for you.
Nobody really wants a crappy US domestic meal, so why provide it? On the int'l flights, meals are still provided. SWA will start up Central America flights this year and so we'll see if the public choses price over amenities. I'm guessing they'll chose price. If SWA starts to dominate, the US carriers will drop the food on those segments in order to match price. Sure the public will whine about it, but like I said, it's ultimately what they wanted.
Continental was the last hold out to serve meals? It made no difference in terms of customer retention. Sure people would say they preferred CAL over the others, but they'd still fly American, UAL (prior to merger) or DAL just to save 8 bucks on ticket. So CAL had to ditch the free meal service on domestic as well. Hawaiian still serves meals but they typically dominate their markets and are sort of a niche carrier.
With respect to bags... nobody likes it but, again, it is what the customer wanted, by default of their lack of loyalty to any given carrier and their propensity to chase around the last buck on tickets. The airlines tested the waters by first charging $15 for the first bag, then $25, then that same amount for the second bag. Now it's graduated up to $45 per bag. Ouch! But US airline managements also did one thing carriers like EY and QR haven't bothered to consider, capacity discipline. IOW, they keep demand just ahead of supply (of airline seats), which gives them pricing power. They don't order mass amounts of aircraft then guess where to fly them. Instead they surgically pick their future markets and study whether it makes sense to order growth planes. By restricting capacity, all 3 benefit. It's basic business sense.
Don't like the bag charges? You can fly SWA and take all day to get to your destination because of their point-to-point network. But since time is more valuable than money, the core of the big 3 carriers customers still want to fly via the hub-and-spoke system. And seeing how there's a shortage of seats, the big 3 can finally charge a cost-plus rate for the lift. Those who want to travel with too much crap can pay for it. Those who don't can still bring their carry-on. So the big 3 in the US have the ticket price just low enough to be competitive and keep the government off their backs, while competing with the LCCs, but if you want more on your pizza, you pay for it. Want a meal? Pay. Want to bring 10 pairs of shoes for that weekend trip? Pay. Like anything else in life. Want to save money? Eat before you get on board and travel light (what most people do).
As far as the OPs questions, if I may add my $.02. I flew in the M.E. and S. Asia on contract jobs for years, so I'm a bit more qualified to comment than the average Yank who isn't presently flying for EK, EY, or QR. The issues is labor... ME carriers and some S. Asian carriers lack proper labor protections afforded by traditional unions. As long as that's the case there is nobody going to bat for you while you're out flying the line. The only thing assuring your career satisfaction is supply and demand. As long as there is an endless supply of applicants to take your place, which there is, mgmt will undermine you at every turn, with respect to how it deals with pilots, etc. Sure they'll pay heed when they turnover reaches an unusual level. And no they're not going to create all that hostile an atmosphere for fear of pissing off the pilots. But the overall changes in terms of upward progression will always be far less than what the pilots were expecting and deserve. It is what it is. Contrary to popular belief, unions don't kill an airline. Look at UAL, DAL, and AAL.
The only way out is to do what thousands of EK aviators before you have done and vote with your feet. Otherwise, relax, take comfort in the fact that there are still quite a few good attributes to the EK career, and enjoy your time there. Just don't expect much in the way of positive change.
NOTE: I'm not trying to denigrate EK. I have many buddies there who really like it. But having worked at too many non-union carriers in the past, I prefer the union-protection for my career over the offerings of a EK/ QR setup. I'm not saying one is better than the other. Each has it's strengths. Its all about what works for you.
Last edited by Geebz; 26th Oct 2014 at 14:41.