Careful with your bidding ...
short flights long nights
Am I correct in saying that if it's a 3 man crew, then by definition, it's not a ULR?
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Hi All,
We had a good look at this on my last flight. At the moment, everyone is focusing on the outbound flight as it is the longest, but the reality is, it is legal. Its very tight, but the company is expecting you to "go that extra mile" and use discretion if you are delayed. I won't get in to what you should or shouldn't do on that, as its the individual commanders decision on the day of.
However, food for thought, the return flight is actually the more limiting flight, especially with a 3 man operation. What is very important here, and you must look at, is the layover MUST be longer than 30 hours! If it not, the flight is not legal, as you will be in discretion before ever showing up to the airplane. The same thing happens quite often on the Shanghai 302 pairing when they try to run in 2 man in the summer.
What this means is, if you are the slightest bit late, you must delay pick-up and technically the return flights departure time. This is the reason it operated 4 man in the winter and 3 man in the summer. The flight times don't change, but they get an extra hour of cushion on the layover (in the summer, JFK layover is 31 hours, in the winter, its 30) due to daylight savings time. So, since we all know the flight is going to be delayed out of Dubai with this runway closure, its is very important you keep an eye on your layover length times. This is one the company knows they can't touch, and they will delay the flight outbound. Its happened to me on several occasions from Shanghai and every single time, without question, they delayed the pickup and flight departure.
This is a calculated risk on their part, but hold very firm to that 30 hour layover period. If you are below it, your duty period is not sufficient. If you get ramp checked by the FAA, they will come down on you harshly if you are found to be outside your duty period (no discretion) while sitting on the game. I would suggest that any of the yanks give even more thought to this because they will go after your FAA licenses as well (whether its legal for them to do so is another discussion and not for this thread).
If they are continuously delaying departures due to the rest period, I think it will go back fairly quickly. So before you get mad and go high speed on the way to BOS or JFK and back, just think about what you are actually doing as it may not be your smartest move if you want to see change.
Remember, you can play hard ball and try to pick a fight, and you may or may not get anywhere. However, its much more efficient to follow the rules and use them to your advantage. This is exactly what they do. Know the book, know what it says, and know where to use in your favor!. A delay out of JFK with a late arrival in Dubai WILL get their attention as 90 percent (my guess) of those passengers connect 2 hours later to the subcontinent. If they miss their connections the whole people moving machine starts to break down. My guess is, its also why YYZ operates with 4 crew instead of 3, as it gets in slightly later than the JFK or BOS and they aren't willing to risk that many mis connections due to a delay out of YYZ.
(NOTE: Feel free to take a look at the duty times on the return sector, as I could have miscalculated, but according to my calculations, its more restrictive than the outbound flight.)
We had a good look at this on my last flight. At the moment, everyone is focusing on the outbound flight as it is the longest, but the reality is, it is legal. Its very tight, but the company is expecting you to "go that extra mile" and use discretion if you are delayed. I won't get in to what you should or shouldn't do on that, as its the individual commanders decision on the day of.
However, food for thought, the return flight is actually the more limiting flight, especially with a 3 man operation. What is very important here, and you must look at, is the layover MUST be longer than 30 hours! If it not, the flight is not legal, as you will be in discretion before ever showing up to the airplane. The same thing happens quite often on the Shanghai 302 pairing when they try to run in 2 man in the summer.
What this means is, if you are the slightest bit late, you must delay pick-up and technically the return flights departure time. This is the reason it operated 4 man in the winter and 3 man in the summer. The flight times don't change, but they get an extra hour of cushion on the layover (in the summer, JFK layover is 31 hours, in the winter, its 30) due to daylight savings time. So, since we all know the flight is going to be delayed out of Dubai with this runway closure, its is very important you keep an eye on your layover length times. This is one the company knows they can't touch, and they will delay the flight outbound. Its happened to me on several occasions from Shanghai and every single time, without question, they delayed the pickup and flight departure.
This is a calculated risk on their part, but hold very firm to that 30 hour layover period. If you are below it, your duty period is not sufficient. If you get ramp checked by the FAA, they will come down on you harshly if you are found to be outside your duty period (no discretion) while sitting on the game. I would suggest that any of the yanks give even more thought to this because they will go after your FAA licenses as well (whether its legal for them to do so is another discussion and not for this thread).
If they are continuously delaying departures due to the rest period, I think it will go back fairly quickly. So before you get mad and go high speed on the way to BOS or JFK and back, just think about what you are actually doing as it may not be your smartest move if you want to see change.
Remember, you can play hard ball and try to pick a fight, and you may or may not get anywhere. However, its much more efficient to follow the rules and use them to your advantage. This is exactly what they do. Know the book, know what it says, and know where to use in your favor!. A delay out of JFK with a late arrival in Dubai WILL get their attention as 90 percent (my guess) of those passengers connect 2 hours later to the subcontinent. If they miss their connections the whole people moving machine starts to break down. My guess is, its also why YYZ operates with 4 crew instead of 3, as it gets in slightly later than the JFK or BOS and they aren't willing to risk that many mis connections due to a delay out of YYZ.
(NOTE: Feel free to take a look at the duty times on the return sector, as I could have miscalculated, but according to my calculations, its more restrictive than the outbound flight.)
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The devil's in the details. So 747jb, what hours are you using for your rest? Block in or block in plus thirty? One hour before departure, or departure? What I'm saying is "they" might just define one's rest differently, for extenuating circumstances of course
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I used block in in JFK to duty on (1 hour before departure). As far as I know, the 30 mins after block in only applies at home base. Again, I could be wrong and feel free to correct me if I am.
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The scheduled layover time according to the pairing reports (Ex:#201) is... 31:15. And by using simple math you can see that this is derived from 30 mins after block in (14:45 Local)... to 1 hour prior to departure (22:00 Local).
So essentially, anything longer than a 1:15 delay on the inbound flight will require a subsequent delay on the outbound flight as you will now be less then the required 30 hours of rest. By failing to do so, you will be in violation of the OM-A rest requirement (mandatory 30 hours) which according to the governing body is required to make this pairing legal.
A747jb, Panther 88 or anyone else please feel free to comment and correct any misunderstanding I may have of the fine print. That's how I read it but as always, I could be wrong.
Play by the rules boys and girls... but by all means, use them to your advantage as well.
So essentially, anything longer than a 1:15 delay on the inbound flight will require a subsequent delay on the outbound flight as you will now be less then the required 30 hours of rest. By failing to do so, you will be in violation of the OM-A rest requirement (mandatory 30 hours) which according to the governing body is required to make this pairing legal.
A747jb, Panther 88 or anyone else please feel free to comment and correct any misunderstanding I may have of the fine print. That's how I read it but as always, I could be wrong.
Play by the rules boys and girls... but by all means, use them to your advantage as well.
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With all the discussion about about FTL's and max hours, I'm surprised no one has mentioned the unofficial report time for duties out of Dubai.
Normally, we are required to proceed to the bus 10 minutes before we officially start our duty, but to help the on time performance and minimize disruption we will be required to proceed to the bus 80 minutes before STD, a full 20 minutes before we officially start our flight duty period, for the period of the runway closure.
Cabin Crew have already received the email, and it is tucked away in the information booklet they sent us the other day.
Unfortunately, we also know that the company cannot adjust the start of duty report time as that would make some pairings illegal for two crew( think Dhaka/male turns and some longer slogs though the night)
Hey Ho! time to go the extra mile,KY not included!
PS just waiting for the notification that the standard pick up will be brought forward to 2:30hrs for the duration!
Normally, we are required to proceed to the bus 10 minutes before we officially start our duty, but to help the on time performance and minimize disruption we will be required to proceed to the bus 80 minutes before STD, a full 20 minutes before we officially start our flight duty period, for the period of the runway closure.
Cabin Crew have already received the email, and it is tucked away in the information booklet they sent us the other day.
Unfortunately, we also know that the company cannot adjust the start of duty report time as that would make some pairings illegal for two crew( think Dhaka/male turns and some longer slogs though the night)
Hey Ho! time to go the extra mile,KY not included!
PS just waiting for the notification that the standard pick up will be brought forward to 2:30hrs for the duration!
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Where or when did that request for the 80 minutes come from? You can't be asked to undertake a duty at the behest of the Company if you're not on duty. If we start now for the runway closure to help 'the wave', do you really think it's likely to go back to how it is? Following a DAY OFF, you are already expected to be briefing cabin crew 23 minutes before official sign on. That's 23 minutes violating YOUR DAY OFF!
Harry
Harry
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Page 7 of runway closure facts PDF sent to us the other day.
"Crew must leave Briefing Rooms by STD-80. The LCD will show the time. Staff will be actively managing this so Crew may expect to be asked to leave the room at this time.
The Bus will leave EGHQ by STD-75 (5 minutes earlier than prior to runway closure). Please do not wait for standby crew unless instructed by Crew Operations staff."
So unless the flight deck will be getting a different bus, I guess we will be joining them!
"Crew must leave Briefing Rooms by STD-80. The LCD will show the time. Staff will be actively managing this so Crew may expect to be asked to leave the room at this time.
The Bus will leave EGHQ by STD-75 (5 minutes earlier than prior to runway closure). Please do not wait for standby crew unless instructed by Crew Operations staff."
So unless the flight deck will be getting a different bus, I guess we will be joining them!
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Isn't that what we do anyway? If i'm in the middle of our own brief, I'll quite happily get the crew to make their way to the bus and we see them there. If I need to get a different bus to the aircraft, so be it. Have done it twice before when reporting for 0700 departures following a day off.
Complying with an unofficial timeline to assist the Company achieve an on time departure will not be accepted as a mitigating factor when you end up on a closed taxiway or take off on the wrong runway.
GO WHEN YOU'RE READY!
Harry
Complying with an unofficial timeline to assist the Company achieve an on time departure will not be accepted as a mitigating factor when you end up on a closed taxiway or take off on the wrong runway.
GO WHEN YOU'RE READY!
Harry
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Harry,
How correct you are. Little emails from management mean as much as a letter to Santa and should carry the same effectiveness...certainly in a court of law. If the company wants any changes of operation during the runway closure, then it must be clearly set out in a FCN or FCI. Otherwise its just junk mail.
How correct you are. Little emails from management mean as much as a letter to Santa and should carry the same effectiveness...certainly in a court of law. If the company wants any changes of operation during the runway closure, then it must be clearly set out in a FCN or FCI. Otherwise its just junk mail.
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If they had built the runways properly the first time this wouldn't be happening. But it "costs too much" to do anything properly in this part of the world.
Eg. the collapse of the new concourse, the collapse of the HQ ceiling fittings, collapse of the training centre atrium windows, etc etc etc....
I thought that was the "normal" time to leave.
Eg. the collapse of the new concourse, the collapse of the HQ ceiling fittings, collapse of the training centre atrium windows, etc etc etc....
Crew must leave Briefing Rooms by STD-80
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ULR always need to be planned 4 crew
Gents,
Any normal ULR flight needs to be planned with 4 crew as per the OM-A. The note g. in 7.C.1 is an absolute minimum (to get an aircraft home in case of a sick pilot) for which there are requirements which are stated in 7.C.7
In case you doubt this, there is a similar statement in 8.3.7 (In-flight Fuel management)
In the pre-amble under 8.3.7 is clearly says: The FOB shall be periodically checked in flight to ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made, with final reserve fuel remaining.
Everybody knows that this is a bare minimum for which there are some requirements (8.3.7.2) or when diverting to your alternate.
Fot the ULR plan, this is written in exactly the same style , it's a statement in the general section of an ABSOLUTE minimum for which requirements need to be met, which are explained in detail in the subsections.
So, if they do want us to fly to JFK with only 3 pilots, they have to take away the ULR tag from the flight.
When normal rules apply, the absolute max FDP for a 3 man crew (without discretion) leaving DXB on EK201 is around 15:30 using burn-out of the augmenting guy. With a planned flight time of 13:45, thus a planned FDP of 14:45, this is (unfortunately) absolutely legal.
Planned rest time in NY is 31:15, so unless you arrive more than 1:15 late in JFK, the return sector won't be affected.
Whether this will work is a completely different kind of question which has been answered in the past, but from a legality point of view there doesn't seem to be an issue with our OM-A.
Any normal ULR flight needs to be planned with 4 crew as per the OM-A. The note g. in 7.C.1 is an absolute minimum (to get an aircraft home in case of a sick pilot) for which there are requirements which are stated in 7.C.7
In case you doubt this, there is a similar statement in 8.3.7 (In-flight Fuel management)
In the pre-amble under 8.3.7 is clearly says: The FOB shall be periodically checked in flight to ensure that the amount of usable fuel remaining is not less than the fuel required to proceed to an aerodrome where a safe landing can be made, with final reserve fuel remaining.
Everybody knows that this is a bare minimum for which there are some requirements (8.3.7.2) or when diverting to your alternate.
Fot the ULR plan, this is written in exactly the same style , it's a statement in the general section of an ABSOLUTE minimum for which requirements need to be met, which are explained in detail in the subsections.
So, if they do want us to fly to JFK with only 3 pilots, they have to take away the ULR tag from the flight.
When normal rules apply, the absolute max FDP for a 3 man crew (without discretion) leaving DXB on EK201 is around 15:30 using burn-out of the augmenting guy. With a planned flight time of 13:45, thus a planned FDP of 14:45, this is (unfortunately) absolutely legal.
Planned rest time in NY is 31:15, so unless you arrive more than 1:15 late in JFK, the return sector won't be affected.
Whether this will work is a completely different kind of question which has been answered in the past, but from a legality point of view there doesn't seem to be an issue with our OM-A.
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Imagine .....
Quote:
As a result of delays and unreasonable demands by the Company (see below)
, and following long and serious deliberation by the AFAP/pilot reps, we believe we now have no choice but to notify the Company today of the intention for AFAP members to engage in protected industrial action commencing on Friday 7 February.
Seems so. At this stage limited to the usual "don't work on a day off" first steps industrial action.
Quote:
As a result of delays and unreasonable demands by the Company (see below)
, and following long and serious deliberation by the AFAP/pilot reps, we believe we now have no choice but to notify the Company today of the intention for AFAP members to engage in protected industrial action commencing on Friday 7 February.
Seems so. At this stage limited to the usual "don't work on a day off" first steps industrial action.
Burn Out Policy only applies to specific pairings...
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Which specific pairings are these? And where is the data to be found? I have a vague memory of just one specific burnout pairing being mentioned in the book but I can't find it. Maybe it's been a victim of the standard kneejerk editing which could mean there is actually no burnout policy at all for any practical purpose.
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Gents,
I think the final nail in the coffin of the planed 3 crew ULR is that there must be a published rest plan.
This only affects BOS.
JFK 201 could be done non-ULR 3 crew but the 203 can't due the departure time. Same with IAD.
So one flight to JFK (203) would be a ULR and one six or so hours later wouldn't (201). Makes no sense.
So as for BOS. It is not a ULR by EK definition but it is being operated as one currently. Once a destination has been defined as a ULR it must remain a ULR for the whole year.
So if they want to operate with 3 Crew it has to be under normal FTL's and they must say that BOS is not a ULR and operate it under normal FTL's ALL year.
Now in the winter they could operate it 4 crew under normal FTL's but it would not make any sense as if you have 4 crew you may as well make it a ULR and get the 22 hr OPS FLEX.
So it seems the new guy may have to re-look at it or if they decide its worth operating under normal FTL's then so be it.
At least you won't need to be back from vacation so early etc.
Just to save everybody working it out, here are the FDP's as published by EK...
In MAY
DXB-BOS Duty 14:30 (Max 3 crew 16:15, Max 4 crew 17:23) plus descretion
If your layover is >30 hrs
BOS-DXB Duty 13:10 (Max 3 crew 15:02, Max 4 crew 16:03) plus D if safe.
ATB
M
I think the final nail in the coffin of the planed 3 crew ULR is that there must be a published rest plan.
This only affects BOS.
JFK 201 could be done non-ULR 3 crew but the 203 can't due the departure time. Same with IAD.
So one flight to JFK (203) would be a ULR and one six or so hours later wouldn't (201). Makes no sense.
So as for BOS. It is not a ULR by EK definition but it is being operated as one currently. Once a destination has been defined as a ULR it must remain a ULR for the whole year.
So if they want to operate with 3 Crew it has to be under normal FTL's and they must say that BOS is not a ULR and operate it under normal FTL's ALL year.
Now in the winter they could operate it 4 crew under normal FTL's but it would not make any sense as if you have 4 crew you may as well make it a ULR and get the 22 hr OPS FLEX.
So it seems the new guy may have to re-look at it or if they decide its worth operating under normal FTL's then so be it.
At least you won't need to be back from vacation so early etc.
Just to save everybody working it out, here are the FDP's as published by EK...
In MAY
DXB-BOS Duty 14:30 (Max 3 crew 16:15, Max 4 crew 17:23) plus descretion
If your layover is >30 hrs
BOS-DXB Duty 13:10 (Max 3 crew 15:02, Max 4 crew 16:03) plus D if safe.
ATB
M
Last edited by Modesh; 21st Apr 2014 at 14:40. Reason: Published without checking facts about rest plans. RAIG shows 3 crew SLR with refs to FOM so v out of date!