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Old 28th Feb 2004, 19:21   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Posts: 24
Angry Emirates Pilot Meeting

Any impressions of the pilot's meeting?
Pengintai is offline  
Old 28th Feb 2004, 20:09   #2 (permalink)
CRS
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: The Grand Sandpit
Posts: 84
A complete and utter waste of time.

You are not valued, nothing was sorted out, all still under review. Time to brush off that CV.

The two main chairs of the meeting handled it with total arrogance and contempt for our colleagues trying to make valid points.

Only thing learned was 130 acft by 2012 and 2200 pilots + more DEC's. Apparently pilots are queing up to come to EK! No one I know.

The SVPE&FO can see no reason at all why there is any bad feeling or why moral is not high.

Happy Days

CRS
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Old 28th Feb 2004, 21:11   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: The Desert
Posts: 15
Question

So nothing new revealed????
Any mention of pay, upgrade policy, housing allowance? Rumour had it that Adel told a Capt recently that the pilots would be very pleased with what they had come up with.
What was the turnout like?
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Old 28th Feb 2004, 21:33   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Dubai, U.A.E.
Posts: 215
Angry INSULT

A very good turnout!!! Expectations were there, mine personally were high! Any goodwill that could've come out of this meeting was blown away by arrogance and a half baked attempt at making us feel guilty about our current package!! How dare we ask for any improvements on pay and conditions!!!!

I will not ever bother with another of these meetings in the future! Resignation is soon to follow.

Enough is enough!!

Check 'Six'
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Old 28th Feb 2004, 21:33   #5 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Infinity and Beyond
Posts: 59
Gentlemen, our esteemed EVPE&FO asked us to keep this news off Prune as it is a private issue and not for public consumption.

Well tough . I think it important that those 3000 pilots wanting to join know exactly what they're letting themselves in for if they join.

About 250 - 300 guys in the auditorium with great expectation but here's quick breakdown of what was said:

Upgrade: we see no need to change the current policy.

Duty Travel: F/Os can go business IF travelling with Capt, but not on own.

Accommodation Allowance: We see no need to change the current policy.

Pay: Pilots are not a special section of the company, and will recieve the same pay increase as ALL sections of the company. (Review still in progress, results in May).

Credit: The review is ongoing and results will be announced in May.

Most of what was said was a repeat of the December meeting (it will be reviewed) and the result: a lot of off pilots.

For those of you out there who think that Emirates is going to look after you and give you a good career, please think again. The management view is that you joined on your contract but it is so loose that they can change the terms of that contract and we have no comeback or representation to help air our views.

You may believe that the grass is greener over here, but with some flight deck dusting off their CVs you should get an idea of you are in for should you join.

What's the betting that the April meeting will be much of the same?

I'm now going out for a dinner: pork and beer seems a good bet!!
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Old 28th Feb 2004, 22:26   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: This mortal coil
Posts: 4
The meeting on the 21st Dec was well attended and gave Emirates pilots the opportunity to provide Emirates Flt Ops management with some insight into areas of concern regarding pay, conditions, promotion etc. All insights were gratefully accepted and put under review.

The meeting on the 28th Feb was well attended and gave Emirates Flt Ops management the opportunity to provide Emirates pilots with some insight into areas of concern regarding pay, conditions, promotion etc. The review has concluded that

1. Pay shall remain as is. If pilots want to talk about pay issues in future the management will not attend the meetings. Everyone else has to do overtime and not get paid for it so pilots are already better off than other company employees. Pilots salarys are comparible to other salaries in the area. Name one other airline that pays pilots annual leave. We do not have an official inflation index in the UAE so we cannot increase pay accordingly.


2. Accom allowance shall remain as is. Pilots receive conditions of employment similar to other company employees. We do not discriminate. Only Simulator instructors will receive a pay increase to improve their conditions. Paxing in business class for an F/O on duty travel is still under review, paxing in uniform is mandatory.

3. F/O promotion criteria shall remain as is. Flight time in an Emirates aircraft does not count towards promotional experiance for accelerated command. Because the hours for DEC change regularly a pilot is better off to wait until he can apply for a DEC. Pilots are not assessed on individual merit for promotion out side the inflexible hours requirements. The requirement for DECs will continue and they will be hired as long as they meet the MINIMUM criteria. Once you join as an F/O there are NO PROMOTION guarantees so join only as a DEC. Promises made during the interview are null in void, the only guarantee is the piece of paper you sign as a contract. That contract can change for the next bunch of pilots. Years of Long haul experiance count for nothing. Two seasons in a dodgey Charter Job flying A320 will get you a LHS in an A330/A340-300-500-600. The reality is that on projected figures EK can and will continue to hire Captains from the DEC pool, they need 100 captains total per year and have already hired 45 DECs this year, as such in house F/Os will remain as F/Os for alot longer than three years. Let me say again..... Promises made during the interview are null in void, the only guarantee is the piece of paper you sign as a contract.

We should all be grateful we have a job with Emirates and there are a few thousand applications to prove it.

For those of you who intend to apply to Emirates be advised that there is no one in Emirates management who will address your pilot concerns and no body of people that can stand up for you. Conditions continue to be eroded for succesive new joiners. Training Captains and project pilots are resigning or being forced out. Emirates needs DECs, to ensure that the quantity is achieved irrespective of the quality, and will not promote highly qualified in house pilots.

For those like me who do not read Latin...... Buyer Beware
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Old 28th Feb 2004, 23:45   #7 (permalink)
loungelizard
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Well, as a group of 900 odd professional and talented drivers, we are as pissweak as the Jingallie workforce. Start and stand up for ourselves as a large group and have the balls as united brothers and state that no bastard moves anywhere Monday morning unless a major review is undertaken. A few days with major international aircraft stranded at the hub of the world may begin to make a bowel movement with the management. Then again Lizard, Pilot's are known to be a weak and gutless mob when it comes to joining together and enforce change.
 
Old 28th Feb 2004, 23:55   #8 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: FL350
Posts: 15
Interesting Thread......I think a few of those 3000 applications will be reconsidering the accelerated FO program based on the responses from the current EK pilots. Personnally I'm going to wait another 12-14 months until I have the DEC qualifications. Alot of the applicants from AC will be doing the same thing. Thanks for info Guys and hope to see in a years time!
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 00:55   #9 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: world
Posts: 18
Thumbs down

EXTREMELY DISAPOINTED AND UPSET AT HOW THE PILOTS WERE ADDRESSED BY MANAGEMENT. MY DAYS AT EK AT NUMBERED AND THAT NUMBER JUST GOT REDUCED EVEN MORE. THEY JUST DON'T GET THE MESSAGE DO THEY??

GOOD LUCK FOR THOSE LOOKING ELSEWHERE AND THINGS CAN ONLY GET BETTER. THIS IS THE LOWEST I HAVE FELT WORKWISE SINCE ARRIVING IN THE 90'S.
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 06:53   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sheraton, Hilton....
Posts: 164
would be worth to start a poll about pilots who joined within the last 24 month if they would do it again.
just to enlighten some EK wannabes.

ps: don't give up your command to join EK as a F/O you might never get it back
Zomp is offline  
Old 29th Feb 2004, 10:21   #11 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Posts: 316
Essentially, Emirates management have confirmed our status as expatriate workers in their company. We are discovering what it feels like to be utterly powerless in relation to our own working conditions. This is not only about pay but flight time and duty limitations, rostering practices and scheduling. All these factors affect fatigue and safety but are also at the heart of our working conditions.
Our bosses regard posting on PPRuNe as unprofessional but they deny their workforce any other avenue for discussing their worth and bringing up legitimate arguments for better conditions. They will say this is untrue because we can raise our problems any time. But they demonstrate that they don't want to hear them. However, this is exactly the case for all other expatriate workers in Dubai and the Middle East.
Management is about managing, not denying problems exist and papering over them. Amongst the pilots are many guys trying to help and do the right thing by the company but are denied the opportunity because of a lack of legitimate dialogue.
Disenfranchising your workforce must be regarded as cutting off your nose to spite your face. We may not be the face of the airline but we have significant authority over its safe operation day to day.
The one size fits all solution to airline business utilised by the company from its foundation doesn't work any more and more robust strategies for dealing with all conditions needs to be found.
First world image, third world standard.
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 13:14   #12 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: This mortal coil
Posts: 4
SecurID no offence taken. I sure could do with a bit of help every now and then, and always look for ways to improve.

As the days wear on it will become self evident, again, to the EK pilots that we have no choice but to stay until conditions improve elsewhere. Sentiments reflected in a previous post. The real choice is for those who intend to come to Emirates. Our income in 'homeland' pounds/dollars continues to slide, the cost of living continues to increase and we have no way of negotiating for better conditions... because neither has anyone else, and what makes pilots so special?

Emirates has approx 1000 pilots and requires approx 2100 by the beginning of the next decade. It does not take much math to figure out that given the policy of hiring DECs those with a seniority number somewhere from 1000 and above will not gain promotion within three years. Join now as an F/O and expect command sometime after 2012. Join as a DEC, even if you have to wait in your current airline for a bit longer is a better proposition. If someone can be positive and throw a different light on the math please do so, number of retirees etc. Remember its not what they say or promise at the interview, its what you sign.... and I stand corrected on that point.

If you are in a bad way at home please do come to Emirates and feel welcome. If life is not so bad then just think about .... carefully.
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 15:47   #13 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 51
Hey guys who do you think the EVPE&FO means when he say "some of you lazy pilots." I refused to go in and work for NO PAY on my days off. Am I a "lazy pilot?"

Crazy
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 19:35   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: The Sharp End.
Posts: 138
Absolute utter waste of time, thats what you get when you cross British Airline "management" with local managers with all man management skills.

Only been here a short time, not enjoying it at all. EK is going to be in deep if it doesn't do something soon regarding recruitment, pay and upgrades soon.

Never been in a co. where I have flown with so many Training Capts who openly admit they are going to resign.

Review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review, review.

What a load of .

Our esteemed EVP said not to post on PPRuNe as it would give the company a bad name..... sorry chief it's you lot that are giving the company a bad name.

End of justified rant...........
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 19:54   #15 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 50
What could I possibly say that hasn't already been said, and more elakwently than me!? Probably nothing, but here goes anyway.......

As much as I would like to launch into a soap box address about the incompetence and negligence of our circus called management, I will not.

But I would like to address EK wannabe's.....DEC's OR F/O's...

Anybody looking at coming here should do so ONLY if the existing conditions at their present location are so bad that they MUST move on, AND the PRESENT conditions here at EK are satisfactory for you. You would have "unreasonable expectations" (management quote) if you thought your contract will be changed for the better during your EK tenure. Not trying to be the prof of doom, just a realist.

PLEASE....... if you do come here then do so with your eyes wide open! The aircraft are great, as are the people you will work with, (except maybe this particular "bolshy ba#$%@^d"), but your conditions ARE going to decline in line with the US dollar. If you think the US dollar is about to regain previous strength, then I would be very wrong...... and most happy to be so! But you are most certainly attached to the ups and downs of that mighty greenback.

And remember.... eyes wide open! The prerogative of having your eyes wide shut is reserved for our enlightened leadership!

Safe Flying to all!
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 20:51   #16 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Camelot
Posts: 243
Grrr MY TWO CENTS WORTH

ATTENTION EMIRATES WANNA-BE'S

There's an old saying that goes: "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit!" AKA: Empty promises when you arrive for the interview.

If you're thinking of jumping ship and heading for this playground (read Zoo) then PLEASE heed to the advice posted above. The truth is that we as a professional group of pilots (deemed Managers in our worthless 'contract') are treated with extreme contempt by senior Emirates management and are seen to be nothing more than any other employee (cleaners etc); one of the dispensable workforce.

We have NO RIGHT to representation, and we are apparently wasting senior managment time (on our days off) by attending meetings (set up by THEM) which address serious pilot morale, hence flight safety issues.

Enlightening YOU, the "future" 1200 Emirates joiners is the only voice we have!
BE WARNED. Things are not what they used to be!
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Old 29th Feb 2004, 22:59   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Mid Atlantic
Posts: 478
Just one question guys.

How are the DECs being received? Are they being blackballed, given the cold shoulder, or 'sent to coventry' by the ensconced pilots? I can imagine this cannot be a happy group if all this is true, and I wonder if the F/Os in particular are taking this out on the new joiners (who seem to be effectively robbing them of their promotions).

I'm not interested to join EK at the moment myself...not qualified anyhow, but I did consider it as a long term rest/retirement home in a half dozen years or so.

"Lazy Pilots"!?
Don't like the sound of that!

Perhaps not!
Idunno is offline  
Old 1st Mar 2004, 00:13   #18 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: ME
Posts: 23
Got all that guys,
Is it really that unhappy a ship ? I'm on the fence at the mo, about to give my notice back home and come and join you guys as an FO. (current Jet Capt). My question is - is the place any good as a lifestyle, I've got two kids for whom i'd like the best education, outdoor lifestyle and quality of life.

Feedback definately welcomed ( and i don't have much time left to decide )

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Old 1st Mar 2004, 00:44   #19 (permalink)
mach-hog
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Angry emirates pilot's meeting

Absolute waste of time. Shameful. No substance, not even any style. No wonder this "family" (as stated in the corporate video), is becoming dysfunctional. Time for a re-edit on that one gentlemen. You are going to have to do some quick revision on expansion plans....

By the way, to EK wannabees, (all you thousands) esp. FOs - did you know that EK provides airfare, (pos. space) for DEC candidates to come to their 5 day interview but the FO candidates don't get anything for travel...

Aren't they clever?

Giovane

If you want to place your children in either the American School of Dubai (ASD) or Dubai American Academy (DAA), there is a lengthy waiting list for the former, and you will have to pay out of pocket, at least 9200 AED per year extra for the seat fee. There is no wait list, I believe, at DAA but it is rapidly growing and I am not sure about class size. If you are considering, and have been successful in the interview process then you have the addresses and telly numbers given to you during assessment, so you can call to verify admissions status before making the final decision.
 
Old 1st Mar 2004, 02:41   #20 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester UK
Posts: 73
Guys, your openness and honesty should be applauded.
We have got the message 5 by 5. Avoid at all costs unless absolutely desperate.
I wish you all the very best. Stand up for yourselves and don't let the bas##rds get you down.
The airline relies on all of your professionalism and good will. Do not let them walk all over you.

Good luck.
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