Needle Phobia & Class 1
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Needle Phobia & Class 1
Hi all!
Last month I headed down to London for my Class 1 initial. When it came to the blood test and the pin prick, I informed the nurse of my needle phobia and I thought I was fine. Surprise surprise though, when she went to go and get the pin pricker, I fainted.
Roll on to the end of the day, everything else passed. The AME however was unhappy to provide me with my Class 1 as I had passed out, stating there could be an underlying condition. This of course was a shame to me, knowing that it truly is a phobia. The AME then requested that I go and get some further tests done. This week I went to a Cardiologist for my 24 hour ECG, Echocardiogram and Exercise ECG and nothing turned up (other than me realising I need to get to the gym as jogging for 12 minutes gets the muscles aching). The thing that concerned me most however from the findings was that even though I am healthy, I may be issued with a Class 1 OML and not an unrestricted Class 1. Is this true? And would this change my Class 2 to a Class 2 OSL?
This is an issue as I start my ATPL training next month and feel I would not be able to complete the course with a restricted medical.
Thanks.
Last month I headed down to London for my Class 1 initial. When it came to the blood test and the pin prick, I informed the nurse of my needle phobia and I thought I was fine. Surprise surprise though, when she went to go and get the pin pricker, I fainted.
Roll on to the end of the day, everything else passed. The AME however was unhappy to provide me with my Class 1 as I had passed out, stating there could be an underlying condition. This of course was a shame to me, knowing that it truly is a phobia. The AME then requested that I go and get some further tests done. This week I went to a Cardiologist for my 24 hour ECG, Echocardiogram and Exercise ECG and nothing turned up (other than me realising I need to get to the gym as jogging for 12 minutes gets the muscles aching). The thing that concerned me most however from the findings was that even though I am healthy, I may be issued with a Class 1 OML and not an unrestricted Class 1. Is this true? And would this change my Class 2 to a Class 2 OSL?
This is an issue as I start my ATPL training next month and feel I would not be able to complete the course with a restricted medical.
Thanks.
Last edited by Dring; 31st Aug 2017 at 20:04.
If anyone faints I expect my newly qualified junior doctor to do a blood pressure, pulse and blood sugar. This is basic training and is important as even 'faints' can cause a problem
Assuming these were OK, or your pulse was slow (what we call a vasovagal - a typical faint at the sight of that HUGH needle!!!) then we diagnose ......a faint
I personally would have baulked at being sent for extra tests and IF everything is as you describe (ie you havent had open heart surgery the week before or other medical problems) I am surprised the cardiologist saw you
I would write to the AME asking him on what basis he believes you have an underlying medical problem. If you have NO past medical history and told the nurse you had a needle phobia I simply dont follow the logic. I have people with needle phobias every couple of days. Some are fine, some cry, some run away and some faint.
The CAA is then your arbiter especially as the cardiologist found nothing. But initially you need to put the AME on the spot and politely ask him to justify his concerns. Of course, he may now wave a white flag and give you the piece of paper. You can choose which AME to use next time!
Assuming these were OK, or your pulse was slow (what we call a vasovagal - a typical faint at the sight of that HUGH needle!!!) then we diagnose ......a faint
I personally would have baulked at being sent for extra tests and IF everything is as you describe (ie you havent had open heart surgery the week before or other medical problems) I am surprised the cardiologist saw you
I would write to the AME asking him on what basis he believes you have an underlying medical problem. If you have NO past medical history and told the nurse you had a needle phobia I simply dont follow the logic. I have people with needle phobias every couple of days. Some are fine, some cry, some run away and some faint.
The CAA is then your arbiter especially as the cardiologist found nothing. But initially you need to put the AME on the spot and politely ask him to justify his concerns. Of course, he may now wave a white flag and give you the piece of paper. You can choose which AME to use next time!
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I was initially quite angry, I did feel like questioning her however as a 17 year old I didn't know whether it was my place to do so. So of course I willingly went ahead and did everything she asked. I told her my family has no history of heart failure and as you say, my blood pressure had dropped into the 50's after I fainted.
I went back to my AME who did my Class 2 for advice and he sent me to the right person, albeit the extra tests cost double that what I paid for the initial. Without a doubt I will be going to my local AME for my Class 1 renewals, its just such a shame there are few places you can get your initials at.
I went back to my AME who did my Class 2 for advice and he sent me to the right person, albeit the extra tests cost double that what I paid for the initial. Without a doubt I will be going to my local AME for my Class 1 renewals, its just such a shame there are few places you can get your initials at.
de minimus non curat lex
The initial class one can only be issued unrestricted. No OML
The other issue is that the haemoglobin blood test is carried out on every medical. So it is something you need to get use to, or other career options.
Either don't look, or get help to overcome this irrational fear.
The other issue is that the haemoglobin blood test is carried out on every medical. So it is something you need to get use to, or other career options.
Either don't look, or get help to overcome this irrational fear.
de minimus non curat lex
A tiger shark is likely to kill you. A haemoglobin prick test will not.
A drug addict is unlikely to reach the first hurdle having completed the initial paperwork, assuming the person is honest. The test is the blood count, not the drawing of a drop of blood.
I would say it is best to have the bp done first, as the "stabbing" of the thumb can be sore depending upon the technique use.
A visit to the trick cyclist or similarly qualified person is necessary to overcome this irrational fear.
A type one diabetic may well need to inject prior to TOD. (Class one OML)
My wife refuses to go into the reptile house (snakes) at Edinburgh Zoo. She hate them. My daughter goes bananas if she sees "Sammy" the spider in the house. These are irrational reactions to creatures who have never done them any harm..........
A drug addict is unlikely to reach the first hurdle having completed the initial paperwork, assuming the person is honest. The test is the blood count, not the drawing of a drop of blood.
I would say it is best to have the bp done first, as the "stabbing" of the thumb can be sore depending upon the technique use.
A visit to the trick cyclist or similarly qualified person is necessary to overcome this irrational fear.
A type one diabetic may well need to inject prior to TOD. (Class one OML)
My wife refuses to go into the reptile house (snakes) at Edinburgh Zoo. She hate them. My daughter goes bananas if she sees "Sammy" the spider in the house. These are irrational reactions to creatures who have never done them any harm..........
Last edited by parkfell; 2nd Sep 2017 at 16:37. Reason: Last paragraph added
As someone who also could have been voted the Person Least Likely To Become An Intravenous Drug User I fully sympathise. I also have fainted while bloods were taken, and while I have largely trained myself out of it I still (always) experience a wooziness and drop in blood pressure at the sight of the needle going in. People who don't suffer this often just can't grasp that this is a psychological condition which is both unavoidable and completely limited to the few minutes during/after the needle - it happens at no other time. Some people have similar responses to spiders, snakes, blades, open injuries or Jonathan Ross (although that usually involves vomiting rather than fainting), but these are never cited as "medical limitations".
If you repeat the experience with a different doctor I'd suggest discussing this aspect in advance, and that you suggest that they do the bloods *first* so that the doctor can observe and verify the recovery period while doing the other things.
If you repeat the experience with a different doctor I'd suggest discussing this aspect in advance, and that you suggest that they do the bloods *first* so that the doctor can observe and verify the recovery period while doing the other things.
TBH I've never seen a genuine needle used by an AME and never thought of the "prickier" as being in the same context as a needle....(then again I don't have a needle "phobia").
GIven if the OP is successful he/she is going to be subject to a lifetime of these tests could they deploy a bit of "kidology" to get around this, as in..."on here comes that annoying little stapler thing again", rather than thinking of it as " oh ***** any minute now they are going to produce a foot long needle"?
GIven if the OP is successful he/she is going to be subject to a lifetime of these tests could they deploy a bit of "kidology" to get around this, as in..."on here comes that annoying little stapler thing again", rather than thinking of it as " oh ***** any minute now they are going to produce a foot long needle"?
de minimus non curat lex
For the avoidance of doubt:
i) a needle is not used for the haemoglobin test.
It is a wooden pick; something similar to a tooth pick but smaller and thicker, and with a sharp point
ii) I express no opinion about the decision of the AME. The CAA medical dept will no doubt have robust protocols to follow.
iii) as this procedure is now part of every professional medical, the OP needs help to overcome his response to this procedure. There are people who are capable and very successful in dealing with these fears. He needs to make enquiries. Speak to the GP in the first instance. Unlikely to be available on the NHS.
iv) I am not without sympathy for his situation but he needs to overcome it.
i) a needle is not used for the haemoglobin test.
It is a wooden pick; something similar to a tooth pick but smaller and thicker, and with a sharp point
ii) I express no opinion about the decision of the AME. The CAA medical dept will no doubt have robust protocols to follow.
iii) as this procedure is now part of every professional medical, the OP needs help to overcome his response to this procedure. There are people who are capable and very successful in dealing with these fears. He needs to make enquiries. Speak to the GP in the first instance. Unlikely to be available on the NHS.
iv) I am not without sympathy for his situation but he needs to overcome it.
I don't like needles therefore I look away.
I'm scared of heights and slightly claustrophobic. First weeks flying a jet I'd sit slightly sideways not being a fan of right turns at altitude...to great bemusement of the Captain.
I also don't like doing #2 on the aircraft but that's more out of common courtesy because I like eating exotic street food.
If my wife ever saw me cleaning the cockpit with Sani-wipes she'd have hysterical laughing fit.
But she hasn't seen Captain Crusty scrub his sweaty b@lls before checking switches....
We all have our 'things'...
However, there is a difference between 'not liking something' and not being able to function as a result of it. Where should the line be drawn? Needles? Hotel pens? The color yellow? Closing the cockpit door 26 times before you can sit?
What you may find perfectly acceptable as the afflicted may get you a raised eyebrow by an AME.
I was under the impression any sort of fobia was disqualifying.
As the definition is ' an unreasonable illogical fear '
What do you think when you hear:
- I have a conviction but it's only for something small
- I have a DUI but I was only a little bit over the legal limit
- I don't meet the language requirements but only by a little
- I don't meet the height requirements but it's only by a little
- I don't meet the age requirements but only by a year.
It may not appear to be fair but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
I find it curious you blame the doctor as he ( she) is only the messenger.
Work on your fear, it can be overcome.
I'm scared of heights and slightly claustrophobic. First weeks flying a jet I'd sit slightly sideways not being a fan of right turns at altitude...to great bemusement of the Captain.
I also don't like doing #2 on the aircraft but that's more out of common courtesy because I like eating exotic street food.
If my wife ever saw me cleaning the cockpit with Sani-wipes she'd have hysterical laughing fit.
But she hasn't seen Captain Crusty scrub his sweaty b@lls before checking switches....
We all have our 'things'...
However, there is a difference between 'not liking something' and not being able to function as a result of it. Where should the line be drawn? Needles? Hotel pens? The color yellow? Closing the cockpit door 26 times before you can sit?
What you may find perfectly acceptable as the afflicted may get you a raised eyebrow by an AME.
I was under the impression any sort of fobia was disqualifying.
As the definition is ' an unreasonable illogical fear '
What do you think when you hear:
- I have a conviction but it's only for something small
- I have a DUI but I was only a little bit over the legal limit
- I don't meet the language requirements but only by a little
- I don't meet the height requirements but it's only by a little
- I don't meet the age requirements but only by a year.
It may not appear to be fair but a line has to be drawn somewhere.
I find it curious you blame the doctor as he ( she) is only the messenger.
Work on your fear, it can be overcome.
Last edited by B2N2; 3rd Sep 2017 at 13:42.
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Worth also bearing in mind that it is now possible for insulin dependant diabetics to be operating with you. If you are likely to faint at the sight of them injecting themselves, and as a result be "incapacitated" to function in your roll, then that is clearly problematic.
The irrational fear is problematic not the practical occurrences.
I don't see a terrorist smuggling a needle on board in an attempt to hijack a plane with a pilot with a needle fobia.
I don't see a terrorist smuggling a needle on board in an attempt to hijack a plane with a pilot with a needle fobia.
de minimus non curat lex
What a can of worms has now been opened....
Remember the film "snakes on a plane". Recently on the box.
The AAIB would have a field day if the other pilot fainted seeing a diabetic inject:
my post 2 Sept 17:18 refers
Following Germanwings, the psychi of pilots is concentrating the mind of the regulator !
Remember the film "snakes on a plane". Recently on the box.
The AAIB would have a field day if the other pilot fainted seeing a diabetic inject:
my post 2 Sept 17:18 refers
Following Germanwings, the psychi of pilots is concentrating the mind of the regulator !
@Dring,
Firstly, well done for admitting this. Some of those who don't have the problem simply don't understand - as you can see on this thread.
When I am working on my car or in the garden I sometimes cut my hand but the first I know about it is when I see blood all down my arm. This never causes any problem for me, but the deliberate act of a small needle or pin being stuck in me in a doctor's surgery can cause problems !! Totally irrational, but there it is.
A previous AME use to extract a huge test tube of blood - (almost a whole arm full !!) - which did cause me problems, so I always tell the doctor/nurse who is giving me an injection just in case.
If you pm me I can give you my new AME's name. He is very very sympathetic and practical in this regard. He does the pin prick extraction on the skin of the elbow rather than the end of a finger, and it is a total non event. Absolutely brilliant.
Don't worry about it.
Firstly, well done for admitting this. Some of those who don't have the problem simply don't understand - as you can see on this thread.
When I am working on my car or in the garden I sometimes cut my hand but the first I know about it is when I see blood all down my arm. This never causes any problem for me, but the deliberate act of a small needle or pin being stuck in me in a doctor's surgery can cause problems !! Totally irrational, but there it is.
A previous AME use to extract a huge test tube of blood - (almost a whole arm full !!) - which did cause me problems, so I always tell the doctor/nurse who is giving me an injection just in case.
If you pm me I can give you my new AME's name. He is very very sympathetic and practical in this regard. He does the pin prick extraction on the skin of the elbow rather than the end of a finger, and it is a total non event. Absolutely brilliant.
Don't worry about it.
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Hi all,
Thank you for your comments and advice. The syncope only occurs when it is me being pricked/injected, I have many friends who are diabetic and I can easily watch them perform their insulin/blood sugar level tests (albeit being a bit squirmish but far from loss of consciousness). I have been consulting my GP about this for a while and there is nothing to be done about it according to him. At this point I am considering hypnotherapy. In the time since my original post, I have had a meningitis jab in which I successfully had without fainting as I used a blindfold and played music.
Unlike what a previous user mentioned, it was not a wooden pick but a device which had a button on which has a very small, concealed needle at the end. The procedure of course does not at all hurt, if anything you cant feel it at all! It's just an involuntary response to a trigger. My file was sent off to the CAA three weeks ago and I am eagerly awaiting a response, I contacted the CAA and I was told to contact my AME even after I was told to expect the CAA to get in touch "shortly".
In future I shall be attending another AME who performed my Class 2 initial as he, like me, has the same phobia of needles and the same occurs with him when procedures are performed on himself. He is also perplexed as to why this has been made such a big issue.
Thank you for your comments and advice. The syncope only occurs when it is me being pricked/injected, I have many friends who are diabetic and I can easily watch them perform their insulin/blood sugar level tests (albeit being a bit squirmish but far from loss of consciousness). I have been consulting my GP about this for a while and there is nothing to be done about it according to him. At this point I am considering hypnotherapy. In the time since my original post, I have had a meningitis jab in which I successfully had without fainting as I used a blindfold and played music.
Unlike what a previous user mentioned, it was not a wooden pick but a device which had a button on which has a very small, concealed needle at the end. The procedure of course does not at all hurt, if anything you cant feel it at all! It's just an involuntary response to a trigger. My file was sent off to the CAA three weeks ago and I am eagerly awaiting a response, I contacted the CAA and I was told to contact my AME even after I was told to expect the CAA to get in touch "shortly".
In future I shall be attending another AME who performed my Class 2 initial as he, like me, has the same phobia of needles and the same occurs with him when procedures are performed on himself. He is also perplexed as to why this has been made such a big issue.
Last edited by Dring; 25th Sep 2017 at 15:19.
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Hi, I have had the same issue when I went for the Class 1 Initial, now my AME said that they are gonna issue me with a Class 1 OML (5 years without issues and they will remove the limitation) and Class 2 OSL. The AME himself said that an appeal is worth considering, how did you get on with yours?
Wow. This seems seriously daft and lacking completely in common sense. I too have needle phobia. I have fainted when having blood drawn.
The trick is to explain that you have needle phobia to the doctor or nurse before having blood taken. In my case I cannot watch the needle going in. I need to lie down and not be sitting upright as I almost feel like I am being attacked or a sense of claustrophobia in that moment. Once it's all over take a few minutes or even a quarter of an hour to recompose yourself and that's it. To have a condition attached to your medical because of this is just nutsy cuckoo.
The trick is to explain that you have needle phobia to the doctor or nurse before having blood taken. In my case I cannot watch the needle going in. I need to lie down and not be sitting upright as I almost feel like I am being attacked or a sense of claustrophobia in that moment. Once it's all over take a few minutes or even a quarter of an hour to recompose yourself and that's it. To have a condition attached to your medical because of this is just nutsy cuckoo.
