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Old 17th Aug 2017, 12:38   #11621 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Wingswinger View Post
The left hates the truth. It is the one way to destroy them. Keep telling the truth.
There's nothing quite like the suggestion of annihilation to offer the world an insight as to a political and social aspiration based on those core values of populism and autocracy really.....

Sounds suitably virtuous of course....
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 12:54   #11622 (permalink)
 
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Wow a whole post without mentioning the DuniRagA
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 13:00   #11623 (permalink)
 
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Corbyn forces Ms Champion out.

Sajid Javid calls for child abuse debate after Sarah Champion exit - BBC News

shame on him.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 14:55   #11624 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
There's nothing quite like the suggestion of annihilation to offer the world an insight as to a political and social aspiration based on those core values of populism and autocracy really.....

Sounds suitably virtuous of course....
KnC,

Which ethnicity are these gangs predominantly made up from?

These gangs have appeared in areas predominantly associated with which ethnic group?

Which religion do you think these gangs are predominantly following?

The MP just so happened to raise an issue that had already been raised in the media. Whether everything she said is correct, well that is what should be debated. What is the point of ignoring this issue?

Let a debate happen, find out the truth and solve the problem.

Finally, those who choose to bury their head in the sand are IMHO failing to protect all young girls, of all religions, colours, etc, from this evil. They are part of the problem.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 15:09   #11625 (permalink)
 
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I know we have some from the Left here, so can anyone from that side of the political divide hazard a guess as to why Sarah Champion had to resign?

My own political views are very firmly in the centre, and my choice as to who to cast my vote for at every election has been a mix of what my local candidates are like, with the occasional tactical vote if I feel that a particular party would not do a good job of running the country. As a consequence, I have no party allegiance at all.

I've read and re-read Sarah Champion's statement about child abuse gangs, and for the life of me I cannot see anything other than honest, common sense, plain speaking. Everything she said seems to be supported by evidence:

Rotherham (Sarah Champion's constituency):

- 5 British men of Pakistani descent convicted in 2010.
- 11 British men of Pakistani descent and two British women were convicted in 2016

One of the convicted men, Sageer Hussain, said on Channel 4 News "The biggest part of the problem you have these days is these young girls, that are dressed up, i.e. miniskirts, stuff like that, they're going into the clubs, and they're ending up going with blokes, and stuff like that, and they're waking up next morning, and they scream rape. Or groomed.".

In August 2014 the Jay report concluded that at least 1,400 children, most of them white girls aged 11–15, had been sexually abused in Rotherham between 1997 and 2013 by predominantly British-Pakistani men.

Rochdale

- 8 men of British Pakistani descent and one Afghan male asylum seeker were convicted of a range of charges including rape, trafficking girls for sex and conspiracy to engage in sexual activity with a child.

Newcastle

- 17 men of Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, Iraqi and Pakistani descent and one white woman were convicted of sexually abusing young girls.

Oxford

- 7 men of Asian descent were convicted of child sex abuse charges involving around 50 children aged between 11 and 15.

Derby

- 9 men of predominately Asian descent were convicted of sexually abusing mainly underage children.

Bradford

-12 men of Asian descent or origin were convicted of rape, sexual activity with a child etc.

This almost certainly isn't a complete list, it's just the result of a quick search, but it is enough to show that Sarah Champion raised a valid point, and that there is, at the very least, cause for an investigation into why gangs of men from a predominately Asian background are involved in this relatively new (at least in the UK) form of paedophilia.

It seems rare for gangs of British men from a non-Asian background to be involved in this sort of large-scale child sexual abuse, although there have been cases involving much younger children where paedophiles have worked in organised groups, although none that I can easily find seem to be on the scale of the activity of the Rotheram gang.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 15:45   #11626 (permalink)
 
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Also for the 'Liberal left', which political party are most reliant on the vote from this group?

Again considering that these groups will vote for who they are told to vote for, it is not surprising that the MP had to resign.

When will the Politicians stop thinking of themselves for once?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 16:17   #11627 (permalink)
 
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So, was it really her constituents who put the pressure on and forced her resignation, rather than those within her own party?

I'd also be very interested to find out exactly which words in her statement she now feels she should have re-phrased.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 16:28   #11628 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by VP959 View Post
So, was it really her constituents who put the pressure on and forced her resignation, rather than those within her own party?

I'd also be very interested to find out exactly which words in her statement she now feels she should have re-phrased.
A couple of thoughts occur to me.

Firstly, the article referred to ‘Pakistani’ men, when in fact the ethnicity of some of these gangs is much more mixed. Although they do tend to originate from an area between the Middle East and the Sub continent.

Secondly, the article could be seen as inferring that the British Pakistani community as a whole were a problem, depending on how you read it.

Thirdly, do the Labour Party have rules regarding dealings with the press? Did Sarah Champion seek any approval from the Labour press office or did she just go ahead and publish?

Finally, I wonder if either through her treading on party members feet locally or upsetting the Corbynite’s nationally she has put herself in the frame for de-selection? That may explain her hasty disowning of the article.

Personally speaking I agree with the broad thrust of her argument, but wonder if she could have phrased some aspects of it differently?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 16:35   #11629 (permalink)
 
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@Andy S, you may be right, although I think that when she used the sentence:
Quote:
Mainly white pubescent girls were being sexually groomed and exploited by gangs of mainly British Pakistani men.
she may have been referrring to her own constituency (that seems to be the context in her statement). In the case of Rotherham, she was absolutely right. The convicted men were all of British Pakistani origin, every single one of them.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 17:05   #11630 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
KnC,

Which ethnicity are these gangs predominantly made up from?

These gangs have appeared in areas predominantly associated with which ethnic group?

Which religion do you think these gangs are predominantly following?

The MP just so happened to raise an issue that had already been raised in the media. Whether everything she said is correct, well that is what should be debated. What is the point of ignoring this issue?

Let a debate happen, find out the truth and solve the problem.

Finally, those who choose to bury their head in the sand are IMHO failing to protect all young girls, of all religions, colours, etc, from this evil. They are part of the problem.
First, my reply was in response to Wingswingers post. He's never been exactly cosmetic when it comes down to his political philosophies and not particularly astute when it comes to promoting them.

As for the series of questions you posed, this is JB where there has long been an established clique of posters only too willing to display their antagonism and vituperation in terms that could be classed as racist, sexist, homophobic and anti - immigration, to name the four usual topics that attract their undivided attention.

Again, had you actually bothered to read my posts, all is not as clear cut as the statistics suggest. Not that any such disparity has any relevance to those who cannot wait for any opportunity to engage with each other and to continue their unsavoury, to put it mildly, posts.

Again, they all come from a very similar demographic....strangely.

I posted a couple of links earlier, one from the Guardian another from the Sun, The latter clearly showed the offending comment, "the Muslim problem", one poster having emphatically saying, he couldn't find any reference, yet there it was. Thus far, there's been a deafening silence from the clique ...as usual.

Here's another link....

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/...ual-abuse-race

Quite why Sarah Champion resigned and apologised is, as yet, not fully explained and possibly never will be, at least in the public domain.

Finally, you got, and usually will, an answer from me.

This is in stark contrast to those who post, but who, when asked questions, resolutely refuse to reply. That factor alone ( there are plenty of others I am delighted to say ) distinguishes me from those who post, but for whom debate, as you suggested, would be an intellectual anathema.

"I know we have some from the Left here, so can anyone from that side of the political divide hazard a guess as to why Sarah Champion had to resign?

Well it's a start, I suppose, as to the fact you are aware not everybody is a staunch Tory / UKIP supporter. Of course, it may further help if you actually chose to read views and opinions, rather than use the "Ignore" button, less, as I've said, the responses don't meet with your approval.


My own political views are very firmly in the centre, and my choice as to who to cast my vote for at every election has been a mix of what my local candidates are like, with the occasional tactical vote if I feel that a particular party would not do a good job of running the country. As a consequence, I have no party allegiance at all

I seem to recall a lot of ( self promotional ) angst around the time of the GE on similar lines....in fact, I kindly suggested you form your own party, having such a plethora of experiences which you share with us on a diverse range of topics.

In the end, you duly voted Tory ( hardly a shock ) and indeed spent an evening in the toxic company of some chaps ( Conservative and military) I believe was how you profiled the assembled throng, non of whom, in my less than humble opinion, would actually be capable of offering diverse opinions....on any topic, let alone politics.

Last edited by Krystal n chips; 18th Aug 2017 at 07:07.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 17:52   #11631 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
Also for the 'Liberal left', which political party are most reliant on the vote from this group?
What do you mean by "Liberal Left", given that "Liberal" and "Left" are two different, orthogonal, concepts?


At present, just to pick an example at random, the British Labour party is "Left" (it wasn't under Blair, but it is now) but, being as authoritarian as hell, it certainly isn't "Liberal" by the remotest stretch of anyone's imagination.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:00   #11632 (permalink)
 
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KnC,

I seem to recall a lot of ( self promotional ) angst around the time of the GE on similar lines....in fact, I kindly suggested you form your own party, having such a plethora of experiences which you share with us on a diverse range of topics.


Firstly you are not on my ignore list. No one is.
Secondly I post very rarely and stay away from most topics as my experiences maybe similar, or not relevant to the subject. I read them to learn something hopefully. You can see by the 'post count' who posts more frequently.

I personally would say that I am more centrist than yourself. Your views are well known on here and you continually use the Guardian to reinforce your view.

Maybe you could explain your last paragraph as I don't recognise it at all. Maybe provide any link where you could back up your accusation.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:16   #11633 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
KnC,

I seem to recall a lot of ( self promotional ) angst around the time of the GE on similar lines....in fact, I kindly suggested you form your own party, having such a plethora of experiences which you share with us on a diverse range of topics.


Firstly you are not on my ignore list. No one is.
Secondly I post very rarely and stay away from most topics as my experiences maybe similar, or not relevant to the subject. I read them to learn something hopefully. You can see by the 'post count' who posts more frequently.

I personally would say that I am more centrist than yourself. Your views are well known on here and you continually use the Guardian to reinforce your view.

Maybe you could explain your last paragraph as I don't recognise it at all. Maybe provide any link where you could back up your accusation.
I wasn't referring to you re the "Ignore list", just the poster I quoted from after my response to your comments. I added his comments in italics to make the distinction. If you read all his posts, all will become clear.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:21   #11634 (permalink)
 
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Seems to be a gathering of informed opinion suggesting Ms Champion is silenced for daring to speak the truth.

Sarah Champion is being used as a 'scapegoat' after warning of cultural link in child sex cases, critics claim

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...sarah-champion

Labour Leadership buying its head rather than face down this awful problem.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:47   #11635 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seldomfitforpurpose View Post
Seems to be a gathering of informed opinion suggesting Ms Champion is silenced for daring to speak the truth.

Sarah Champion is being used as a 'scapegoat' after warning of cultural link in child sex cases, critics claim

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...sarah-champion

Labour Leadership buying its head rather than face down this awful problem.

From The Telegraph (a.k.a. "The Torygraph") I would rather expect them to take this stance. That's not to say they are wrong, in my view she is being unfairly singled out for daring to speak the truth, from her position as an MP for a constituency that had a major issue with British men of Pakistani origin abusing hundreds of predominately white children (up to 1400 if you take the Jay Report figures as being reasonably accurate).

The piece in The Guardian is interesting, in as much as it comes as close as I've ever seen that paper come to implying that there may be flaws within the Labour Party. This reported statement by Jeremy Corbyn:

Quote:
Asked if Champion had been right to suggest that Britain had a problem with British-Pakistani men exploiting white girls, Corbyn said it was wrong to “label a whole community”.
seems inaccurate, in that he knows, as all who have actually read Sarah Champion's words, that she did no such thing. Jeremy Corbyn seems to being deliberately disingenuous, as it is clear that when Sarah Champion made reference to crimes being carried out by "mainly British Pakistani men" she was very specifically referring to the case in her own constituency, where this was the case. These are her words from the article in question, in context:

Quote:
I’m writing this as I don’t know what else to do to try and protect our children from grooming and sexual abuse by gangs.

I became the Member of Parliament for Rotherham in November 2012 and, within a month, I heard the abbreviation CSE (child sexual exploitation) for the first time.

Rotherham Metropolitan Borough Council had been hauled in front of the Home Affairs Select Committee to justify their failure to protect young girls who were victims of this vile crime.

I sat stunned in the committee room, I couldn’t believe what I was hearing.

It was shocking. Mainly white pubescent girls were being sexually groomed and exploited by gangs of mainly British Pakistani men.

I had to do something. I would not be another person who turned a blind eye to these crimes.

Working with the children’s charity Barnardo’s, I launched a cross-party parliamentary inquiry into child sexual exploitation. We found that the judges were not properly supporting the victims in court.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 18:51   #11636 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips View Post
I wasn't referring to you re the "Ignore list", just the poster I quoted from after my response to your comments. I added his comments in italics to make the distinction. If you read all his posts, all will become clear.
I am sorry I mis read your post. Please clarify the other points I raised in my last post. If you have confused me with another person, no problem. I am just confused about your accusations.
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 22:46   #11637 (permalink)
 
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Last thing I read this morning on this topic shows the author of the offending piece in the Sun was Trevor Kavanagh. And Sarah Champion has denied that this phrase was part of what she actually siad. I would rather believe Ms Champion than a hundred Sun journalists. Sun, Hillsborough anyone?
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Old 17th Aug 2017, 23:12   #11638 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Last thing I read this morning on this topic shows the author of the offending piece in the Sun was Trevor Kavanagh. And Sarah Champion has denied that this phrase was part of what she actually siad. I would rather believe Ms Champion than a hundred Sun journalists. Sun, Hillsborough anyone?
That sounds entirely plausible.
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Old 18th Aug 2017, 07:13   #11639 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Nip View Post
I am sorry I mis read your post. Please clarify the other points I raised in my last post. If you have confused me with another person, no problem. I am just confused about your accusations.
I haven't confused you with anybody else. As I said, my quotes in italics were not directed at yourself, but to the poster who made them.

Neither have I made accusations. My comments, in response to your questions, were factual statements.

GTW....you seem to have missed this link with regard to a certain Sun journalist. Others on here did as well.....how very strange .

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/423565...y-immigration/
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Old 18th Aug 2017, 11:39   #11640 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by KelvinD View Post
Last thing I read this morning on this topic shows the author of the offending piece in the Sun was Trevor Kavanagh. And Sarah Champion has denied that this phrase was part of what she actually siad. I would rather believe Ms Champion than a hundred Sun journalists. Sun, Hillsborough anyone?
You can believe what you like, but it is all down on hard copy and emails.
After the piece was published, her PA emailed the Sun with this..

"She is absolutely thrilled with it – just gone to get some hard copies. However, she is mortified that you’ve used such an ancient picture of her – it is about five years old! I sent some newer ones last summer to the picture desk and am attaching them again here. Please can you send them on to the relevant person. Thanks, x"

Rather than being offended, she showed extreme vanity. Her attempt at backtracking was pathetic, and any kudos for honesty evaporated into thin air.
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