Will it go back to the old times?
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I wanted to stay out of it initially, as I was curious to see what everybody else had to say on the ORIGINAL question/subject, BUT...
No, I really cannot see it going back to whatever it was before (I've started my aviation career only too recent to remember "golden days" of '70 or '80s). The reason not being in aviation per se, as aviation is only a small cogwheel in the whole greedy economic machine. The problem, in my own humble opinion, is global. And aviation is just another collateral damage so certain minority of individuals can enjoy ABSOLUTELLY (with a capital A) everything.
And on P2F subject, as it became somewhat a secondary subject. How on Earth can anybody blame anyone else other then an impatient over-eager rookie that wants to sit next to the "big guy" in the cockpit of a shiny jet???????? Seriously...
Someone mentioned "it had been creeping up on us for ages" and "they saw it coming, nobody did nothin"... Don't mean to sound rude, but how is that an argument?? I mean, just because there is an opportunity, do we all have to jump for it, even though it's clearly a suicide?? Here's an example: You walk by jewellery shop every day and see all the shiny bits and bobs and whatnot. Do you pick up the first brick you can find and ram it through the window to steal what's there?! Of course you don't. Cause you're not
stupid...
You see, I've wanted to fly planes since I... well you know the story. Now when I finally have the money and time to do it, there is no force in universe to make me do my training and then to pay THE MOST expensive airline ticket ever, just to get to see lights flashing up front... The thing that physically prevents me to do so is a little thing called "self respect".
Anyone daft enough to pay to work for someone really deserves it. As I can't really think of worse punishment than that.
No, I really cannot see it going back to whatever it was before (I've started my aviation career only too recent to remember "golden days" of '70 or '80s). The reason not being in aviation per se, as aviation is only a small cogwheel in the whole greedy economic machine. The problem, in my own humble opinion, is global. And aviation is just another collateral damage so certain minority of individuals can enjoy ABSOLUTELLY (with a capital A) everything.
And on P2F subject, as it became somewhat a secondary subject. How on Earth can anybody blame anyone else other then an impatient over-eager rookie that wants to sit next to the "big guy" in the cockpit of a shiny jet???????? Seriously...
Someone mentioned "it had been creeping up on us for ages" and "they saw it coming, nobody did nothin"... Don't mean to sound rude, but how is that an argument?? I mean, just because there is an opportunity, do we all have to jump for it, even though it's clearly a suicide?? Here's an example: You walk by jewellery shop every day and see all the shiny bits and bobs and whatnot. Do you pick up the first brick you can find and ram it through the window to steal what's there?! Of course you don't. Cause you're not
stupid...You see, I've wanted to fly planes since I... well you know the story. Now when I finally have the money and time to do it, there is no force in universe to make me do my training and then to pay THE MOST expensive airline ticket ever, just to get to see lights flashing up front... The thing that physically prevents me to do so is a little thing called "self respect".
Anyone daft enough to pay to work for someone really deserves it. As I can't really think of worse punishment than that.
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Maxed-out,
We tried.
But when the commercial team want to do something which is lawful, profitable, seen as satisfactory by the regulator, and not going to be a PR disaster, there are very few arguments left. Of course, if airline A does it, but B does not, B is at a commercial disadvantage...
The argument played out in G-DHJZ was aired (read the report carefully to understand what I mean), but of course the insurers took care of that one...
...and the others.
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A320, G-DHJZ
By the way, you are aware that CTC was started by a group of 'senior pilots', aren't you?
We tried.
But when the commercial team want to do something which is lawful, profitable, seen as satisfactory by the regulator, and not going to be a PR disaster, there are very few arguments left. Of course, if airline A does it, but B does not, B is at a commercial disadvantage...
The argument played out in G-DHJZ was aired (read the report carefully to understand what I mean), but of course the insurers took care of that one...
...and the others.
Air Accidents Investigation: Airbus A320, G-DHJZ
By the way, you are aware that CTC was started by a group of 'senior pilots', aren't you?
Last edited by frontlefthamster; 2nd Mar 2012 at 19:42.
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aviofreek
You need your head examined.. Seriously.
"Sitting next to the big boys of a shiny jet". What a silly comment to make.
I'm ex-modular and clawing my way up the ladder with GA stuff. I'll settle for the safety pilot gig or rhs of a small tp but those slots are not empty as those pilots can't get a look in to the jet jobs. This is because some greedy, corrupt senior captains have gotten into bed with the airlines i.e. ctc and the cartel is locking up everthing tighter than a pigs ear. I really wish the people will stop using the shiny jet argument to enhance their point of view. It's getting old and tiresome.
You need your head examined.. Seriously.
"Sitting next to the big boys of a shiny jet". What a silly comment to make.
I'm ex-modular and clawing my way up the ladder with GA stuff. I'll settle for the safety pilot gig or rhs of a small tp but those slots are not empty as those pilots can't get a look in to the jet jobs. This is because some greedy, corrupt senior captains have gotten into bed with the airlines i.e. ctc and the cartel is locking up everthing tighter than a pigs ear. I really wish the people will stop using the shiny jet argument to enhance their point of view. It's getting old and tiresome.
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Of course, if airline A does it, but B does not, A is at a commercial disadvantage...
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Maxed-out,
My comment might have been out of line and I do apologise if you found to be so. But it ain't silly and the only thing my head needs right now is a haircut.
At the age of 39 (as it says in your profile) I think you might intelectually be in a different position than your average 17 to 25 year old wannabe who thinks that only job in aviation worth doing is "flying big shiny jets"... That's the profile of people I was talking about. And that would be the profile of people who would P2F. I do however respect people who appreciate that getting to RHS of 737 should take a GA like route whilst gaining valuable experience along the way...
My comment might have been out of line and I do apologise if you found to be so. But it ain't silly and the only thing my head needs right now is a haircut.
At the age of 39 (as it says in your profile) I think you might intelectually be in a different position than your average 17 to 25 year old wannabe who thinks that only job in aviation worth doing is "flying big shiny jets"... That's the profile of people I was talking about. And that would be the profile of people who would P2F. I do however respect people who appreciate that getting to RHS of 737 should take a GA like route whilst gaining valuable experience along the way...
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Marx explained how capitalism exploits the workers through lack of regulation.
There is, to my knowledge, no similar work on the theories of prostitution for no profit or promise of gain...
Perhaps I finally have the title for my retirement treatise..?
There is a crucial difference between interns and co-pilots:
Interns are of limited value; they fill some small gaps, but the positions are all about gaining experience, networking, and finding a career path. Interns will make up at most around 5% of the workforce in the organisations they serve, and when paid, are paid a very small amount, but probably a reasonable or significant proportion of that which might be paid to longer-term employees doing similar work. Internship has parallels with post-graduate qualification.
Co-pilots, conversely, are necessary to the operation of the aircraft; typically forming perhaps 40-45% of the pilot workforce, feeding expansion and providing a means of addressing attrition
There is considerable economic risk in replacing a significant number of co-pilots with pay-to-fly prostitutes. There is less risk in having a small number, and there is probably some profit if the deals are done well.
There is, to my knowledge, no similar work on the theories of prostitution for no profit or promise of gain...
Perhaps I finally have the title for my retirement treatise..?
There is a crucial difference between interns and co-pilots:
Interns are of limited value; they fill some small gaps, but the positions are all about gaining experience, networking, and finding a career path. Interns will make up at most around 5% of the workforce in the organisations they serve, and when paid, are paid a very small amount, but probably a reasonable or significant proportion of that which might be paid to longer-term employees doing similar work. Internship has parallels with post-graduate qualification.
Co-pilots, conversely, are necessary to the operation of the aircraft; typically forming perhaps 40-45% of the pilot workforce, feeding expansion and providing a means of addressing attrition
There is considerable economic risk in replacing a significant number of co-pilots with pay-to-fly prostitutes. There is less risk in having a small number, and there is probably some profit if the deals are done well.
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As an old timer on my leafy perch, reading the recriminations and who did or didn't do what to whom, I am struck by some of the material and very relevant omissions that so many of you have allowed to cloud your historical perspective.
In "the good old days" you couldn't get a CPl/IR with 250 hours, it took much more than that. At least 700 hours, and even then airlines weren't really interested in you. Actually that isn't entirely correct. You could get a CPL/IR with 250 hours, but only through a very limited number of "approved" flight training schools. The main players in those full time, 2 year courses of integrated training were: BOAC/BEA at Hamble; CSE at Oxford; and AST at Perth. The latter two establishments provided integrated courses of approved training for both private individuals, and also in conjunction with a few airlines ab-initio sponsorship programmes.
Hamble closed, and what became British airways elected to contract out their ab-initio programmes to the other commercial integrated providers. However this type of airline ab-initio regime existed for decades. It was never a particularly major part of the overall recruitment pond, and it happily sat in its own little corner of the industry.
With the advent of JAR and all things European, the licensing system changed. The CPL was intended to become (what it had always been in most other countries) an "aerial work" licence. As part of that harmonisation the requirements were slashed to 200 odd hours for all. No more instructing on a PPL. Now you needed the CPL to legitimize that avenue of pursuit.
For the full time ab-initio courses, there was little change. The new incarnations and evolutions of the old "approved schools" were now Oxford (under new ownership), FTE and CTC.
The big change came in the "self improver" end of the recruitment pond. Here there was a perception that 250 was the new 700! Now anybody with 250 hours and a CPL/IR could fling themselves at the door of airlines, who would all be hungry to snap up the feast of keen new applicants. Strangely that didn't happen. Now to be fair, there was a very vocal young Irishman who seemed to court much publicity with outrageous declarations that "two pilots were an unnecesssary waste of money, that simply thwarted the bargain hungry traveller from being guaranteed a seat to anywhere in Europe for only 99P! Despite his much publicised declarations that two pilots was simply one too many, and cabin crew could do the F/O's job just as well, and anybody with the basic licence could sit in the seat and even pay to sit there. The truth is that the regulators could only find no absolute objection to the last two. Their only real concern was that the pilot in the left hand seat had experience to compensate.
Believers in this new religion flocked to part with their cash. The feeding frenzy to obtain this 250 hour CPL/IR spread from Florida to Puddlewick-on-the Marsh, as every flying school in Christendom (and beyond) became an "Academy" of airline qualification. As every airline then realized that the public now wanted to fly everywhere for 99P, it slowly dawned on them that wasn't really possible without employing the same or similar methodology as that young Irishman.
So they all realized they had to cut their wage bill. That was going to take time, and it had to start from the bottom up. Most of them weren't too happy to go down the anyone with a licence route, so they turned to the big 3 full time training schools to satisfy a ramped up ab-initio programme, that had always existed in one form or another. In reality even the Irishman was sourcing many of his new recruits via this route.
As this evolution of the new regime started to grow, fuelled by a plethora of plentiful, obtainable, unsecured and cheap money, we watched from the leafy branches in awe as the feeding frenzy took place in the pond beneath us. You think we were going to stick our hand in that melee? Then came the recession. Banks stopped lending (even to one another.) Airlines stopped recruiting. What recruitment did occur, was confined to one or two of the new reality airlines. Those airlines turned up the heat even more, by driving down their costs wherever the opportunity existed.
For the next few "ice age" years, recruitment outside of these limited markets was glacial. However the industrial realities hadn't gone away. This period was utilized by the major players (training schools and airlines) to put in place the necessary investment and expansion, to dominate the growth that they expected once the ice started to melt. To some extent that ice has started to melt, and guess what? Once the real thaw sets in, there are going to be some very upset people who failed to heed the reality that was already happening a decade previously.
So, whinge, bitch, recriminate all you like. For many years now, some of us have been shouting from these leafy perches. Only a few chose to listen. If it is any consolation at all, the new realities have now started to reach these upper branches. So perhaps it won't be the wonderful sunset we all envisiged when we were in our twenties. For those of you in your twenties, adapt to the new realities. This is an evolution. It may not be the evolution that any of us would have wanted, but it is one you are going to have to live with. The old days have gone.
In "the good old days" you couldn't get a CPl/IR with 250 hours, it took much more than that. At least 700 hours, and even then airlines weren't really interested in you. Actually that isn't entirely correct. You could get a CPL/IR with 250 hours, but only through a very limited number of "approved" flight training schools. The main players in those full time, 2 year courses of integrated training were: BOAC/BEA at Hamble; CSE at Oxford; and AST at Perth. The latter two establishments provided integrated courses of approved training for both private individuals, and also in conjunction with a few airlines ab-initio sponsorship programmes.
Hamble closed, and what became British airways elected to contract out their ab-initio programmes to the other commercial integrated providers. However this type of airline ab-initio regime existed for decades. It was never a particularly major part of the overall recruitment pond, and it happily sat in its own little corner of the industry.
With the advent of JAR and all things European, the licensing system changed. The CPL was intended to become (what it had always been in most other countries) an "aerial work" licence. As part of that harmonisation the requirements were slashed to 200 odd hours for all. No more instructing on a PPL. Now you needed the CPL to legitimize that avenue of pursuit.
For the full time ab-initio courses, there was little change. The new incarnations and evolutions of the old "approved schools" were now Oxford (under new ownership), FTE and CTC.
The big change came in the "self improver" end of the recruitment pond. Here there was a perception that 250 was the new 700! Now anybody with 250 hours and a CPL/IR could fling themselves at the door of airlines, who would all be hungry to snap up the feast of keen new applicants. Strangely that didn't happen. Now to be fair, there was a very vocal young Irishman who seemed to court much publicity with outrageous declarations that "two pilots were an unnecesssary waste of money, that simply thwarted the bargain hungry traveller from being guaranteed a seat to anywhere in Europe for only 99P! Despite his much publicised declarations that two pilots was simply one too many, and cabin crew could do the F/O's job just as well, and anybody with the basic licence could sit in the seat and even pay to sit there. The truth is that the regulators could only find no absolute objection to the last two. Their only real concern was that the pilot in the left hand seat had experience to compensate.
Believers in this new religion flocked to part with their cash. The feeding frenzy to obtain this 250 hour CPL/IR spread from Florida to Puddlewick-on-the Marsh, as every flying school in Christendom (and beyond) became an "Academy" of airline qualification. As every airline then realized that the public now wanted to fly everywhere for 99P, it slowly dawned on them that wasn't really possible without employing the same or similar methodology as that young Irishman.
So they all realized they had to cut their wage bill. That was going to take time, and it had to start from the bottom up. Most of them weren't too happy to go down the anyone with a licence route, so they turned to the big 3 full time training schools to satisfy a ramped up ab-initio programme, that had always existed in one form or another. In reality even the Irishman was sourcing many of his new recruits via this route.
As this evolution of the new regime started to grow, fuelled by a plethora of plentiful, obtainable, unsecured and cheap money, we watched from the leafy branches in awe as the feeding frenzy took place in the pond beneath us. You think we were going to stick our hand in that melee? Then came the recession. Banks stopped lending (even to one another.) Airlines stopped recruiting. What recruitment did occur, was confined to one or two of the new reality airlines. Those airlines turned up the heat even more, by driving down their costs wherever the opportunity existed.
For the next few "ice age" years, recruitment outside of these limited markets was glacial. However the industrial realities hadn't gone away. This period was utilized by the major players (training schools and airlines) to put in place the necessary investment and expansion, to dominate the growth that they expected once the ice started to melt. To some extent that ice has started to melt, and guess what? Once the real thaw sets in, there are going to be some very upset people who failed to heed the reality that was already happening a decade previously.
So, whinge, bitch, recriminate all you like. For many years now, some of us have been shouting from these leafy perches. Only a few chose to listen. If it is any consolation at all, the new realities have now started to reach these upper branches. So perhaps it won't be the wonderful sunset we all envisiged when we were in our twenties. For those of you in your twenties, adapt to the new realities. This is an evolution. It may not be the evolution that any of us would have wanted, but it is one you are going to have to live with. The old days have gone.
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@flh
Completely agree with you that co-pilots are more important to service provision than interns (let alone that co-pilot is a more safety-sensitive job than any internship). And I also agree that after all a widespread use of inexperienced p2f pilots might not only pose a safety but also an economic risk. However, it won't show up in any quarterly financial report, as long as no plane goes down, so why only make some profit with a small number when you can make a bigger profit with a bigger number?
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why only make some profit with a small number when you can make a bigger profit with a bigger number?
One thing that is not helping this to come to pass is that all the wannabes who have become willneverbes (and hopelessly, terminally, broke) soon lose interest in dialogue (and anything that is even close to aviation) and retreat from debate...
A pool of experienced co-pilots is a healthy source of commanders, of course, and this is another reason not to fill every RHS with a P2F idiot (sorry for the terms I'm using - if they are offending anyone - but I don't want to stop using them, because they reflect how I and others feel, very strongly).
People will only pay to fly if they can be deceived into thinking there will be a job at the end of it; there needs to be a big pool of co-pilots to satisfy this aim.
Bealzebub, I'm not sure how far you can see from your perch, but perhaps you do know that new starters with airlines now arrive at their airlines with fewer than 150 hours logged (this is happening routinely on aircraft up to 757/A320 family types). MPL trainees never even go solo on the way to their ATPLs.
There has never been a more exciting time to be a base trainer!
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There has never been a more exciting time to be a base trainer!
A recent thread on the T&E section discussing Flexi-crew and Easyjet berated the overall standard of new line FOs. I think I remember reading that the company's part A has seen some major adaption, placing many restrictions on the type of parameters and conditions in which they may operate the aircraft.
The AAIB report on the then My Travel A320 G-DHJZ paints a sobering picture of the type of standard that exists. I can assure you that this isn't a remote incident or a simple case of the one that slipped through the net with a fist full of dollars. A European Colgan Air type accident is a real possibility
In years gone by far fewer people had access to the kind of credit now commonly available and houses were not so high a multiple of average earnings.
These two facts go a long way to explaining the rise of six figure training spends.
Of course when BoE base rates go back to 6% - and they absolutely will - then the both the housing equity and loan serviceability collapses and the model reverts closer to 'the good old days'.
Of course there will be no jobs at that point because the UK consumer/passenger is just a junkie addicted to cheap money. The withdrawal symptoms will be similarly unpleasant and many airlines will go bust. People totally forget that we are still in emergency measures with 1/2% base rates which has never been seen before.
WWW
These two facts go a long way to explaining the rise of six figure training spends.
Of course when BoE base rates go back to 6% - and they absolutely will - then the both the housing equity and loan serviceability collapses and the model reverts closer to 'the good old days'.
Of course there will be no jobs at that point because the UK consumer/passenger is just a junkie addicted to cheap money. The withdrawal symptoms will be similarly unpleasant and many airlines will go bust. People totally forget that we are still in emergency measures with 1/2% base rates which has never been seen before.
WWW
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You are not a member of the union, you are the union. Have you suggested that the union form a group to look into the problem. Have you volunteered to give up some of your time for nothing,
Yes *I* did address it with the recipient of my 'membership' funds, up to and including the highest level. Very interesting and persuasive and would be passed to the legal team was the 'smoke blown up my ass' response; Offered to donate my own time and expense in assisting with the challenges. More smoke blown up my ass and thanks for the offer.
Nothing, no further action or response was made, offers were rejected or ignored and the situation marches on regardless.
I cancelled my BALPA subscription.
WWW is, once again right. And BLAPA? Does what is good for BLAPA not for the good of those who pay for their existence.
