Ticking Time Bomb
Thread Starter
Ticking Time Bomb
Young pilots saddled with debt, living in shoeboxes and suddenly realising that their 'shiny jet' dream has turned into a nightmare. Never will they be able to buy their own house or even their own car in Hong Kong. There are no bases available and they can't even rent anything big enough to house a wife and kids when that time comes.
The highly paid so called 'Management team' constantly tries to screw them down to ever reducing Conditions of Service and will now be intruding into their private lives as never before.
You know what? If I were a lot younger I'd tell them to stuff their shiny jets and learn to fly them themselves. I'd be off to pastures new where my hard work, diligence and skill was appreciated and properly rewarded.
The highly paid so called 'Management team' constantly tries to screw them down to ever reducing Conditions of Service and will now be intruding into their private lives as never before.
You know what? If I were a lot younger I'd tell them to stuff their shiny jets and learn to fly them themselves. I'd be off to pastures new where my hard work, diligence and skill was appreciated and properly rewarded.
Last edited by Arfur Dent; 30th Mar 2015 at 06:23.
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They'll either be offered better conditions down the road or take the money and run (taking all their ratings and investment made by the company with them).
Many in the US have learned simply to 'walk away' from their particular situation and obligations if it turns adverse and try something else. Can't imagine China would be too far behind.
Many in the US have learned simply to 'walk away' from their particular situation and obligations if it turns adverse and try something else. Can't imagine China would be too far behind.
Arfur,
Agree with your comments, but where will a newbie to the industry find such a place that will appreciate his hard work and reward him so??
I think those days are well gone unfortunately..
Agree with your comments, but where will a newbie to the industry find such a place that will appreciate his hard work and reward him so??
I think those days are well gone unfortunately..
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And that's why we should lobby for more stringent training.
No reduction in hours, no more MPL, no more pay to fly, no more multiple choice theoretical exam for which all the answers are memorized.
If the access to the profession is harder, there will be a shortage of newbies, there will be safer and smarter pilots, and an improvement in the joining package.
No reduction in hours, no more MPL, no more pay to fly, no more multiple choice theoretical exam for which all the answers are memorized.
If the access to the profession is harder, there will be a shortage of newbies, there will be safer and smarter pilots, and an improvement in the joining package.
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JY9024,
If the industry were not "sick", A newbie would be able to work hard, at the local flying club, glider club, loading C182s in the Outback, or flying floats in the bush, etc, and then after the internship is over, graduate to a ATR, Beech 1900, or a Dash 8.
There is still hope, and we do have to thank the FAA for having some common sense and not bowing to the airlines when they made 1500 hours the minimum.
To the travelling public, one of the pilots guiding your $39 flight from A to B, may be paying the airline for the opportunity to work. It's kind of like a modern version of servitude, except the boss gets paid by the servant. Awesome.....
For all the "Great Lakes Airways" of the world, in order to attract or retain your staff (who are assets, not liabilities) pay them more or close down. Simple.
The same for any industry, there is no such thing as a labor shortage, only a pay shortage.
If the industry were not "sick", A newbie would be able to work hard, at the local flying club, glider club, loading C182s in the Outback, or flying floats in the bush, etc, and then after the internship is over, graduate to a ATR, Beech 1900, or a Dash 8.
There is still hope, and we do have to thank the FAA for having some common sense and not bowing to the airlines when they made 1500 hours the minimum.
To the travelling public, one of the pilots guiding your $39 flight from A to B, may be paying the airline for the opportunity to work. It's kind of like a modern version of servitude, except the boss gets paid by the servant. Awesome.....
For all the "Great Lakes Airways" of the world, in order to attract or retain your staff (who are assets, not liabilities) pay them more or close down. Simple.
The same for any industry, there is no such thing as a labor shortage, only a pay shortage.
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We are our own worst enemy.
If we, as a pilot group, remained united despite the nonsense that our management offers us, we wouldn't allow such a deterioration of our Conditions of Service.
The more pilots think, "Not my problem as it doesn't affect me directly", the more erosion of our CoS.
Save 100 kg on every sector - how many time have you heard that? What did that get us?
Reduce the fuel whenever possible due to the high fuel costs? What did that get us?
Still, I hear the same nonsense over and over - "Ok, lets play the game and...."
Shep69 nailed it with
Till we either unify as a whole group or many walk away, these 'Oxford School of Business' graduates will keep reducing our CoS, keep patting themselves on the back and reward their cohorts with bonuses.
If we, as a pilot group, remained united despite the nonsense that our management offers us, we wouldn't allow such a deterioration of our Conditions of Service.
The more pilots think, "Not my problem as it doesn't affect me directly", the more erosion of our CoS.
Save 100 kg on every sector - how many time have you heard that? What did that get us?
Reduce the fuel whenever possible due to the high fuel costs? What did that get us?
Still, I hear the same nonsense over and over - "Ok, lets play the game and...."
Shep69 nailed it with
Many in the US have learned simply to 'walk away' from their particular situation and obligations if it turns adverse and try something else.
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Arfur, when you say "ticking time bomb" I hope you're referring to the possibility that many younger pilots might depart the fix rather than a recent tragedy.
To some degree, I agree with your sentiment but I would hope that most, if not all, of our new recruits came in with their eyes wide open, fully aware of the limitations of the package on offer. If they didn't then, sorry, they were foolhardy. That said, if they do find that they can't live here to the standard they expected and decide to leave then good for them. Not many will be in a position to go to the US majors so I assume that the 'pastures new' you refer to is (are?) the Middle East. However, I'd suggest a quick peek at the ME forum to have a look what some of the expatriates over there are saying about life in the sandpit before they jump ship. All I would caution is, caveat emptor, as should have been the case before coming here.
I agree with Hellenic Aviator, we are our own worst enemy. That doesn't just apply to pilots here in FH but to the worldwide pilot community as a whole. It would be easy to blame airline managements for the parlous state of our employment situation but the blame must also lie with past, current and future pilots. Had we, or those before us been interested or determined enough to make a stand about reduced conditions for those following or had those following not been prepared to accept reduced conditions (take a bow China Beached
) then who knows what the present situation might have been? As I've stated before, airline managements around the world captalise both on our lack of cohesion and our individually fragile egos.
So, to those considering going elsewhere, be sure to remove your rose-tinted spectacles before you look at other opportunities because the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
To some degree, I agree with your sentiment but I would hope that most, if not all, of our new recruits came in with their eyes wide open, fully aware of the limitations of the package on offer. If they didn't then, sorry, they were foolhardy. That said, if they do find that they can't live here to the standard they expected and decide to leave then good for them. Not many will be in a position to go to the US majors so I assume that the 'pastures new' you refer to is (are?) the Middle East. However, I'd suggest a quick peek at the ME forum to have a look what some of the expatriates over there are saying about life in the sandpit before they jump ship. All I would caution is, caveat emptor, as should have been the case before coming here.
I agree with Hellenic Aviator, we are our own worst enemy. That doesn't just apply to pilots here in FH but to the worldwide pilot community as a whole. It would be easy to blame airline managements for the parlous state of our employment situation but the blame must also lie with past, current and future pilots. Had we, or those before us been interested or determined enough to make a stand about reduced conditions for those following or had those following not been prepared to accept reduced conditions (take a bow China Beached
) then who knows what the present situation might have been? As I've stated before, airline managements around the world captalise both on our lack of cohesion and our individually fragile egos. So, to those considering going elsewhere, be sure to remove your rose-tinted spectacles before you look at other opportunities because the grass isn't always greener on the other side.
Arfur,
People are refusing the offer or like some are saying, "I applied x amount of years ago but you weren't interested even though I had more experience than the 250 hour guys you fell in love with".
With a few exceptions the type of pilots CX needs are staying away.
People are refusing the offer or like some are saying, "I applied x amount of years ago but you weren't interested even though I had more experience than the 250 hour guys you fell in love with".
With a few exceptions the type of pilots CX needs are staying away.
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#1 (permalink)
29th Mar 2015 20:14 by Arfur Dent
Young pilots saddled with debt,
why would they? Cathay took care of
the training cost. What debt? BS.
living in shoeboxes
we all do, their shoebox just takes a few MTR stations longer to get to, thats all.
and suddenly realising that their 'shiny jet' dream has turned into a nightmare.
Aha. Are you their therapist?
Never will they be able to buy their own house or even their own car in Hong Kong.
Most of us don't have a car, useless in HK and once they get a PR of course they can buy, e.g. in Tung Chung, no problem at all.
There are no bases available
So? This is old news... US might actually open up, you don't know that and it is irrelevant since they never got promised basings in the first place
and they can't even rent anything big enough to house a wife and kids when that time comes.
BS. rent for a 3 bed in TC is about 20k
The highly paid so called 'Management team' constantly tries to screw them down to ever reducing Conditions of Service
Not true. The cos are basically unchanged, they get exactly what they signed up for
and will now be intruding into their private lives as never before.
a bit paranoid lately?
You know what? If I were a lot younger I'd tell them to stuff their shiny jets and learn to fly them themselves.
Yeah, right. Sure you would.
I'd be off to pastures new where my hard work, diligence and skill was appreciated and properly rewarded.
And where would that be, pal? Are you actually awake while posting?
This pathetic propaganda is useless.
Either they like it here or they don't. Period.
History shows hardly anyone leaves anyway, the market is what is is, there is no evil management, no conspiracy, nothing but pure market forces at work. All you achieve is unrealistic expectations/ voting behaviour, and we know by now what that achieves: ZERO ( actually minus 3 % and minus 5 years LoL as we speak). A second officer who starts at CX in his early twenties actually will earn about the same eventually as most of us who joined in their mid thirties.Plus they didn't pay for the training, never had to do night freight in a 172 based in hillybilly town for 3$ an hour.
You have no idea what you a talking about AND IT IS TOTALLY DISHONEST SINCE YOU CARE ONLY ABOUT YOUR OWN COS IN REALITY.
YOUR OBVIOUS HINT AT THE CRASH FOR YOUR PERSONAL BENEFIT IS NOT ONLY ABSURD, IT IS DISGUSTING.
29th Mar 2015 20:14 by Arfur Dent
Young pilots saddled with debt,
why would they? Cathay took care of
the training cost. What debt? BS.
living in shoeboxes
we all do, their shoebox just takes a few MTR stations longer to get to, thats all.
and suddenly realising that their 'shiny jet' dream has turned into a nightmare.
Aha. Are you their therapist?
Never will they be able to buy their own house or even their own car in Hong Kong.
Most of us don't have a car, useless in HK and once they get a PR of course they can buy, e.g. in Tung Chung, no problem at all.
There are no bases available
So? This is old news... US might actually open up, you don't know that and it is irrelevant since they never got promised basings in the first place
and they can't even rent anything big enough to house a wife and kids when that time comes.
BS. rent for a 3 bed in TC is about 20k
The highly paid so called 'Management team' constantly tries to screw them down to ever reducing Conditions of Service
Not true. The cos are basically unchanged, they get exactly what they signed up for
and will now be intruding into their private lives as never before.
a bit paranoid lately?
You know what? If I were a lot younger I'd tell them to stuff their shiny jets and learn to fly them themselves.
Yeah, right. Sure you would.
I'd be off to pastures new where my hard work, diligence and skill was appreciated and properly rewarded.
And where would that be, pal? Are you actually awake while posting?
This pathetic propaganda is useless.
Either they like it here or they don't. Period.
History shows hardly anyone leaves anyway, the market is what is is, there is no evil management, no conspiracy, nothing but pure market forces at work. All you achieve is unrealistic expectations/ voting behaviour, and we know by now what that achieves: ZERO ( actually minus 3 % and minus 5 years LoL as we speak). A second officer who starts at CX in his early twenties actually will earn about the same eventually as most of us who joined in their mid thirties.Plus they didn't pay for the training, never had to do night freight in a 172 based in hillybilly town for 3$ an hour.
You have no idea what you a talking about AND IT IS TOTALLY DISHONEST SINCE YOU CARE ONLY ABOUT YOUR OWN COS IN REALITY.
YOUR OBVIOUS HINT AT THE CRASH FOR YOUR PERSONAL BENEFIT IS NOT ONLY ABSURD, IT IS DISGUSTING.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 30th Mar 2015 at 12:53.
Thread Starter
You're obviously entitled to disagree but let's be reasonable. There is no reason for me to push 'propaganda' and it is true to say that since I joined Conditions of Service have been gradually eroded to their current levels. When I suggested taking skills and hard work elsewhere I'm talking about a different career - not moving to the ME for more of the same.
Sam Ting seems to think everything is fine and NJ's get what they expected but that's my whole point. When they realise what their package actually buys them, I suggest that they will re-consider their position. The fact that not many have left so far doesn't mean that they won't in future.
Also, if you think all is well perhaps you can explain why we're in CC (again) and morale is at an all time low.
Sam Ting seems to think everything is fine and NJ's get what they expected but that's my whole point. When they realise what their package actually buys them, I suggest that they will re-consider their position. The fact that not many have left so far doesn't mean that they won't in future.
Also, if you think all is well perhaps you can explain why we're in CC (again) and morale is at an all time low.
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Who said anything about staying in the industry? Obviously, this is fast becoming a dead end job. Switching costs are not that high in relation to the the gloom people put up with in this industry as a staff member. Please reduce the retirement age to 50, so I can get out and make some real money in my own country before I die.
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Arfur, an extract from a post of yours on the EK roadshow thread on the 5th of March:
So you're saying you're not encouraging newer pilots to look at the ME airlines? Also, to say "move on again if that doesn't work out" is all well and good but to where?
Now I'm confused because in your last post you state:
I trust you can understand my confusion? Changing careers is something often spoken about glibly, as though it were something that we could all do at the drop of a hat and, forgive me, is easy to say for someone who has enjoyed a (presumably) financially rewarding career in aviation. However, if you're "saddled with debt" (presumably you're referring to those who have paid for their training), why would you change career instead of getting some sort of return on your investment?
STP
A genuine Time Bomb........
Enjoy the sandpit chaps and move on again if that doesn't work out but don't stay.........
Enjoy the sandpit chaps and move on again if that doesn't work out but don't stay.........
Now I'm confused because in your last post you state:
When I suggested taking skills and hard work elsewhere I'm talking about a different career - not moving to the ME for more of the same.
STP
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And to which industry is one supposed to take their hard work, diligence and skill? Flying planes is pretty specialised. Should we take all those 5s from (18 months of) SO mods and a frozen ATPL and go into investment banking?
Let me know how that works out.....
Let me know how that works out.....
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The fact that not many have left so far
The fact that not many have left so far doesn't mean that they won't in future.
Come on Arfur, I've been here over 20 years and I've heard this for nearly all that time. Fact is that it's always just talk, guys just don't leave and the longer they stay, the harder it is to break out of the seniority trap.Yes, perhaps a few have gone back to the USA recently but not many and not many more are going after them.Some of us actually like HKG and, admittedly, some don't.
BTW, why are you still here?
Come on Arfur, I've been here over 20 years and I've heard this for nearly all that time. Fact is that it's always just talk, guys just don't leave and the longer they stay, the harder it is to break out of the seniority trap.Yes, perhaps a few have gone back to the USA recently but not many and not many more are going after them.Some of us actually like HKG and, admittedly, some don't.
BTW, why are you still here?
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Had we, or those before us been interested or determined enough to make a stand about reduced conditions for those following or had those following not been prepared to accept reduced conditions then who knows what the present situation might have been?
I seem to remember that 49 men did exactly that in 2001 but their union leadership sold them out.
I seem to remember that 49 men did exactly that in 2001 but their union leadership sold them out.
Thread Starter
Quite right Mr Reader and I've actually had a good time too. People like our friend Sam and the others tell us all is well and everyone who joins knows what they're getting into. I suggest that the more Cathay snipes at the COS of the new joiners the less respect they will get back. That's it really. I hope I'm wrong but I guess we'll see.
'Sam the Excuser'. Job up there on the 3rd Floor for you mate if you're not already there.
Steve - we're all confused just a bit.
'Sam the Excuser'. Job up there on the 3rd Floor for you mate if you're not already there.
Steve - we're all confused just a bit.
Last edited by Arfur Dent; 31st Mar 2015 at 10:24.
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I never said all is well.
I said things are as they are.
It is a concept called "reality", maybe you should try it one day.
I said things are as they are.
It is a concept called "reality", maybe you should try it one day.
Last edited by Sam Ting Wong; 31st Mar 2015 at 16:11.