Agusta A109
Agusta A109
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A109 power crash
Just read in the Bun that a 109 power has crashed somewhere near a school. Pilot was "Heroic". Well done Steve, must have been all those practice sessions in a floppy. Glad you're all OK, Blue for handling, red for site selection, remember the S's next time bloke.
P.S.
a form 5 is not a witch hunt, no, not at all, its just an investigation.
[This message has been edited by Mr.Proach (edited 19 June 2000).]
P.S.
a form 5 is not a witch hunt, no, not at all, its just an investigation.
[This message has been edited by Mr.Proach (edited 19 June 2000).]
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Whilst brunching at Waltham, waiting for a client, I heard the pilots Mayday over the club tannmoy. The crew may like to know that the WLAC ARV, full of concerned groundcrew, made a very impressive response to his brief Mayday call. As they sped off to the threshold of the RW in use, they weren't to know that the school was off-airfield:-)
Great news to hear that all aboard escaped. Any news about the cause....Sloane informant suggests FADEC problems..this is not the first Power to crash in such circumstances.
Great news to hear that all aboard escaped. Any news about the cause....Sloane informant suggests FADEC problems..this is not the first Power to crash in such circumstances.
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wrong what happened was,it had just come out of maintanance and they had replaced the swashplate scissors the wrong way around which overloaded the bolt,which snapped causing pitch control to be impossible.
They also found that the previous crash with Pete Barnes was caused by the same mistake.
All 109's are now being checked and both engineers at Sloane have been suspended nothing wrong with the Power.
They also found that the previous crash with Pete Barnes was caused by the same mistake.
All 109's are now being checked and both engineers at Sloane have been suspended nothing wrong with the Power.
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... take care not leap to simplistic, and possibly premature, conclusions on this one (flyerh - & eesdl). I agree with Whoneedswings - the accident report will make very interesting reading when it is finally released. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later, as it is necessarily of some interest to all you Power drivers.
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Good effort Steve, in what must have been a very hairy few minuets.
If flyhr is right then it would appear that the engineers could carry the can for this. But what about the guy who designed a component that could be fitted the wrong way round?? We all know that it will happen eventually.
If flyhr is right then it would appear that the engineers could carry the can for this. But what about the guy who designed a component that could be fitted the wrong way round?? We all know that it will happen eventually.
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As I am not prone to jumping to conclusions, am not a power driver and the fact that Agusta have already by insistence of the AAIB informed all Power operators throughout the world of this problem, you can judge for yourselves.
Both accidents did not take minutes to meeting the hard stuff. If they had, the consequenses could have been very different.
As the scissor link holds the pitch change links in the correct place and at the correct loading angle, if several attemps to pull pitch had been made the upright angle would have decreased causing the pitch links to depart company with the blades.
As for fitting the part the wrong way around, both accidents happened within two hours of the parts being fitted by the same company and, so far, none of the other 120 Powers thoughout the world have crashed.
Jumping to conclusions would be blaming the FADEC!
Both accidents did not take minutes to meeting the hard stuff. If they had, the consequenses could have been very different.
As the scissor link holds the pitch change links in the correct place and at the correct loading angle, if several attemps to pull pitch had been made the upright angle would have decreased causing the pitch links to depart company with the blades.
As for fitting the part the wrong way around, both accidents happened within two hours of the parts being fitted by the same company and, so far, none of the other 120 Powers thoughout the world have crashed.
Jumping to conclusions would be blaming the FADEC!
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Stinger :
I'm of the opinion that this accident, IF ( that's an IF in BIG LETTERS ) the accident report shows mis-rigging of the scissors link, then it's really important for every helicopter pilot. One more really really important bit to check before I wind my Robbie up ( don't laugh ) next time . . .
I'm of the opinion that this accident, IF ( that's an IF in BIG LETTERS ) the accident report shows mis-rigging of the scissors link, then it's really important for every helicopter pilot. One more really really important bit to check before I wind my Robbie up ( don't laugh ) next time . . .
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Thanks all for the thought on the 109 incident - fraid to say you are all right the scissor link was installed the wrong way round the witch hunt goes on.
Stand by for more on this the third accident from possibly the same engineering error!!!!
Stand by for more on this the third accident from possibly the same engineering error!!!!
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They thought that, in the Pete Barnes accident, the passenger hit the overhead switches with his headset that knocked out the buzz bars lol.
Now we know the real reason. You fly in the cruise at 85% torque and flat pitch in a millisecond and try and not hit the top of your headset on the overhead console.
Follow that with a snap turn in cloud at night and you have lost all your instruments and light.
Well done Pete!
And in both incidents, well done the 109 Power - everybody walked away.
Now we know the real reason. You fly in the cruise at 85% torque and flat pitch in a millisecond and try and not hit the top of your headset on the overhead console.
Follow that with a snap turn in cloud at night and you have lost all your instruments and light.
Well done Pete!
And in both incidents, well done the 109 Power - everybody walked away.
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The master and gen buz bars on inspection are on the passenger side with a sprung loaded bar that can switch off all three at the same time (now being modified).
The headsets in use at the time had thick pads across the top of the head very close to these switches but under normal circumstances not a factor.
Fly along at cruise torque with not so tight seat belts and slam the collective down (not recommended). Doesn't take too much negative G to lift you a couple of inches out of your seat. (Done it in my wild and crazy days in a BO 105, settled down now though).
Before the real reason came to light, they thought the passenger bent foreward, leaned back and switched everything off causing a sudden loss of SAS and loss of instruments. Only thing they could come up with at the time, even though he would have had to lift his bum at the same time. Flat pitching would lift your bum just enough to reach those switches and that is what happens when that part breaks!
The headsets in use at the time had thick pads across the top of the head very close to these switches but under normal circumstances not a factor.
Fly along at cruise torque with not so tight seat belts and slam the collective down (not recommended). Doesn't take too much negative G to lift you a couple of inches out of your seat. (Done it in my wild and crazy days in a BO 105, settled down now though).
Before the real reason came to light, they thought the passenger bent foreward, leaned back and switched everything off causing a sudden loss of SAS and loss of instruments. Only thing they could come up with at the time, even though he would have had to lift his bum at the same time. Flat pitching would lift your bum just enough to reach those switches and that is what happens when that part breaks!
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It has been officially confirmed that the scissor link was put on the wrong way round with the bolt shearing on both accidents.
Amazing that the accident investigators were so convinced it was electrics etc they didnt bother to check the head for any discrepancies especially as link changes were made just prior to flight.
FlyerH seems to have a handle on what happened.
Amazing that the accident investigators were so convinced it was electrics etc they didnt bother to check the head for any discrepancies especially as link changes were made just prior to flight.
FlyerH seems to have a handle on what happened.
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I must be missing something here; does installing the bits mentioned incorrectly, not affect the handling or collective behaviour? Is the first sign of the problem when the bolts fail? With the blade pitch uncontrolled, do you not get horrendous vibrations and loss of control?
I only ask, because I 'heard' of a B212 that had a 'rotating scissors assembly drive bolt' (say that after a few pints!) fail in flight, resulting in loss of pitch control on one blade. The a/c practically destroyed itself in the subsequent descent and only stopped (destroying itself) when it hit the water.
Lots of interesting points seem to be raised here. Did the AAIB really not look at the head?
Excellent job done by both pilots though, well done.
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Another day in paradise
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 01 July 2000).]
I only ask, because I 'heard' of a B212 that had a 'rotating scissors assembly drive bolt' (say that after a few pints!) fail in flight, resulting in loss of pitch control on one blade. The a/c practically destroyed itself in the subsequent descent and only stopped (destroying itself) when it hit the water.
Lots of interesting points seem to be raised here. Did the AAIB really not look at the head?
Excellent job done by both pilots though, well done.
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Another day in paradise
[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 01 July 2000).]
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All things being equal, if a component CAN be fitted back-to-front, inside-out or upside-down it WILL be at some time or other.
Unfortunately today, like non-North-Sea helo pilots, engineers work long hours under extreme pressure to achieve a result the we were well rewarded for ten years ago.
Engineering in a competetive marketplace is regarded as an expensive necessity especially since the advent of the JAR regs.
If, as alleged, the rotating scissors failed due to incorrect fitment the reasons for that way of fitting MUST be correctly established by the AAIB.
Human factors must be included in the report.In any pilot error report the commander's flying experience 1. In total 2. In the last 90 days and 3.The last 28 days is expressed. The licensed engineers' previous time on duty is never released, so in theory the concerned personnel could have been on shift for a ridiculous amount of time before making a mistake.
All in all some poor minimum wage geezer in Italy may have painted ALL the scissors in a certain batch "THIS WAY OUT" on the wrong side os the scissors for all we know. Like pilot based accidets there is usually more than one cause ( and often many) that contribute to an incident.
Let's be thankful there have been no injuries in both these accidents.
[This message has been edited by 4Rvibes (edited 02 July 2000).]
Unfortunately today, like non-North-Sea helo pilots, engineers work long hours under extreme pressure to achieve a result the we were well rewarded for ten years ago.
Engineering in a competetive marketplace is regarded as an expensive necessity especially since the advent of the JAR regs.
If, as alleged, the rotating scissors failed due to incorrect fitment the reasons for that way of fitting MUST be correctly established by the AAIB.
Human factors must be included in the report.In any pilot error report the commander's flying experience 1. In total 2. In the last 90 days and 3.The last 28 days is expressed. The licensed engineers' previous time on duty is never released, so in theory the concerned personnel could have been on shift for a ridiculous amount of time before making a mistake.
All in all some poor minimum wage geezer in Italy may have painted ALL the scissors in a certain batch "THIS WAY OUT" on the wrong side os the scissors for all we know. Like pilot based accidets there is usually more than one cause ( and often many) that contribute to an incident.
Let's be thankful there have been no injuries in both these accidents.
[This message has been edited by 4Rvibes (edited 02 July 2000).]
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Yet another 'Murphy' in the aviation game. In the 60's when the Whirlwind had been in service, in various marks, for many years, one of our instructors found that as the roror was engaged the beast started to shake itself to pieces. Hasty shut-down and much head shaking as to reasons. Nothing immediately obvious and it took much investigation and some sharp sighted-ness on someone's part to spot that the tail rotor was fitted the wrong way round !! Nobody had previously realised that it was a possibility. Thereafter, the pre flight required that the tail rotor be positioned in line with the pylon and a check that they matched aerodynamically.
Murphy is still there and waiting to indulge his/her warped sense of humour.
Murphy is still there and waiting to indulge his/her warped sense of humour.