"Any speed for us London?"
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"Any speed for us London?"
The above phrase seems to have become the norm for about 75% of inbounds to Gatwick lately on TC frequencies.
Some of these crew are also probably concerned about overloaded frequencies. So am I!
If I say nothing about speed, then it has to be STANDARD at the SLP.
I would also like to applaud the LCC inbound to Stansted the other evening about 2130Z who, in the middle of the usual chaos of everyone turning up at once, asked about a straight in on 05.
23 in use with about 10 in the holds at the time. I also most swore on th RT!!
40612 carrying hazardous cargo
Some of these crew are also probably concerned about overloaded frequencies. So am I!
If I say nothing about speed, then it has to be STANDARD at the SLP.
I would also like to applaud the LCC inbound to Stansted the other evening about 2130Z who, in the middle of the usual chaos of everyone turning up at once, asked about a straight in on 05.
23 in use with about 10 in the holds at the time. I also most swore on th RT!!
40612 carrying hazardous cargo
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Well, I don't come to Gatwick very often but here's my thought.
If, more often then not, pilots are told that they can keep high speed when they ask for it... the pilots can start thinking: well, they don't grant us high speed unless we ask for it. If that's the case, they will continue to ask for it. (logical isn't it?)
Two solutions: you and your colleagues reply "no" all the time when asked. After a while pilots will know that it's useless to ask for high speed and stop asking or (second solution) when high speed is granted more often then not: change the rule so that A/C can keep high speed unless told otherwise.
I bet that no pilot will bother you asking if they can please reduce to 250 kts when they pass FL100.
Regards,
Sabenaboy
If, more often then not, pilots are told that they can keep high speed when they ask for it... the pilots can start thinking: well, they don't grant us high speed unless we ask for it. If that's the case, they will continue to ask for it. (logical isn't it?)
Two solutions: you and your colleagues reply "no" all the time when asked. After a while pilots will know that it's useless to ask for high speed and stop asking or (second solution) when high speed is granted more often then not: change the rule so that A/C can keep high speed unless told otherwise.
I bet that no pilot will bother you asking if they can please reduce to 250 kts when they pass FL100.
Regards,
Sabenaboy
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Sabena boy, there are many pilots out there who have to come back to 250 or less when below FL100.
E145 comes back to 240
Easyjet will always come back to 250 unless INSTRUCTED to maintain high speed
There are countless others who will also do the same.
As for asking if there is any speed restriction, 9 times out of 10 they want to keep high speed, othere times they might want to reduce below 250 for reasons unknown to ATC, I've been caught out in the past with a 752 reducing to a ridiculously slow speed with about 35 miles from toughdown, completely screwed up my sequencing plan, but because I didn't stipulate a speed I can't complain.
E145 comes back to 240
Easyjet will always come back to 250 unless INSTRUCTED to maintain high speed
There are countless others who will also do the same.
As for asking if there is any speed restriction, 9 times out of 10 they want to keep high speed, othere times they might want to reduce below 250 for reasons unknown to ATC, I've been caught out in the past with a 752 reducing to a ridiculously slow speed with about 35 miles from toughdown, completely screwed up my sequencing plan, but because I didn't stipulate a speed I can't complain.
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Well the thing that you're forgetting Ahh-40612... Is that you ARE still human, and you CAN forget to mention the fact that there's no speed control!!
As I am a regular into LGW, I've asked for the same as well on a few occasions... - "Especially when It's quiet as a mouse on frequency (doesn't happen that often) or when comming back into LGW on very social (NOT) hours."- And not being told about any speed control.
I'm sorry but I will continue to ask for "any speed" if nothing has been said on these occasions as described before. Which IMHO seems fare
Cheerio
As I am a regular into LGW, I've asked for the same as well on a few occasions... - "Especially when It's quiet as a mouse on frequency (doesn't happen that often) or when comming back into LGW on very social (NOT) hours."- And not being told about any speed control.
I'm sorry but I will continue to ask for "any speed" if nothing has been said on these occasions as described before. Which IMHO seems fare
Cheerio
Last edited by kooyheier; 29th Aug 2005 at 20:18.
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Can't speak about arrivals into LGW but into LTN, the retention of high speed beyond the SLPs frequently creates problems for both the flight deck and Essex Radar/Luton Radar because of the hopelessly inadequate airspace which causes a bottleneck and an inability to get the aircraft down to 5000 feet from which point the intermediate approach is flown.
Whether you're being offered a 'direct' approach i.e. without being required to route into/via LOREL or are following the full STARs into the hold, keeping high speed i.e. significantly above 250 knots will simply screw up your descent profile because Essex/Luton just don't have the lateral airspce to accommodate high-speed manoevring which is why you're so often requested by them to come back to 220.
The guys further back who offer you high speed or who respond positively to flight deck requests are obvioulsy trying to assist but because of the airspace configuration and the interaction with departure routes from LHR, LTN and STN, even when there's no holding traffic, ignoring the SLPs ultimately, isn't that helpful.
A partial improvment to the airspace might - subject to NIMBYs and NOPEs - be introduced next year (An Airspace Change Proposal has been worked on for nearly five years [!!] and is now in the final phase with the CAA) but it won't address the lateral restrictions of the airspace around LOREL or the need for LTN arrivals via LOREL to be level at 5000 feet before commencing the intermediate (radar-directed) approach.
Further improvements are planned for 2008.
So "no ATC speed" will still not mean that "high speed" is necessarily a sensible choice to make and could still screw up your approach, big time!
Whether you're being offered a 'direct' approach i.e. without being required to route into/via LOREL or are following the full STARs into the hold, keeping high speed i.e. significantly above 250 knots will simply screw up your descent profile because Essex/Luton just don't have the lateral airspce to accommodate high-speed manoevring which is why you're so often requested by them to come back to 220.
The guys further back who offer you high speed or who respond positively to flight deck requests are obvioulsy trying to assist but because of the airspace configuration and the interaction with departure routes from LHR, LTN and STN, even when there's no holding traffic, ignoring the SLPs ultimately, isn't that helpful.
A partial improvment to the airspace might - subject to NIMBYs and NOPEs - be introduced next year (An Airspace Change Proposal has been worked on for nearly five years [!!] and is now in the final phase with the CAA) but it won't address the lateral restrictions of the airspace around LOREL or the need for LTN arrivals via LOREL to be level at 5000 feet before commencing the intermediate (radar-directed) approach.
Further improvements are planned for 2008.
So "no ATC speed" will still not mean that "high speed" is necessarily a sensible choice to make and could still screw up your approach, big time!
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As a regular, I ask the question often. Why?
Becuase, when asked, the reply is almost always 'no speed control'. If I assume that there is none, then I am breaking the requirements of the STAR that is being followed. I have to add that when I hear of holding at WILLO or TIMBA then the question doesn't get asked coz I know what the reply will be. But when we can maintain high speed then it is nice...Its still quite a way from GWC to 26L, or just south of DET when going to 08R.
Whilst we are on topic, I find a frustrating thing is being instructed to maintain standard speeds (or even 220kt), only to be told by director (unprompted) that there is no speed control. Happened at least 5 times over the last two weeks.
I will say that if the frequency is busy I don't ask and just do...
Becuase, when asked, the reply is almost always 'no speed control'. If I assume that there is none, then I am breaking the requirements of the STAR that is being followed. I have to add that when I hear of holding at WILLO or TIMBA then the question doesn't get asked coz I know what the reply will be. But when we can maintain high speed then it is nice...Its still quite a way from GWC to 26L, or just south of DET when going to 08R.
Whilst we are on topic, I find a frustrating thing is being instructed to maintain standard speeds (or even 220kt), only to be told by director (unprompted) that there is no speed control. Happened at least 5 times over the last two weeks.
I will say that if the frequency is busy I don't ask and just do...
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I find a frustrating thing is being instructed to maintain standard speeds (or even 220kt), only to be told by director (unprompted) that there is no speed control
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eastern wiseguy
Unfortunately wiseguy, it does happen... we TMA controllers don't always have the time to ask the director what he wants us to do with individual aircraft regarding speed.
If there is nothing at timba or willo, we will give you high speed. If their are other aircraft inbound to the other stack, then if we do not have the time, we will probably tell you standard speed, as we cannot second guess if the director intends snatching your flight off.
Normally, we will say 220kts (or holding speed) if there is holding taking place. hopefully this is not done too early so that you do not trundle along for no reason, however we are trying to prevent or minimise a hold for you.
Please remember we are taking aircraft inbound from several directions and feeding them through a choke point with departures at play as well. in the ideal world we would only work inbounds and we would have time to liaise more thouroughly for every flight with directoe.
as i am sure you are well aware though, the TMA is tight for space so it is not ideal.
If the frequency is quiet, then by all means ask. if it is busy, even if you are the only inbound but there are loads of outbounds and the frequency is busy, chances are you will be told standard speeds if you ask, just to keep you quiet. Not great, I know, but thats the reality. we are trying to re-design the south west sector airspace without any luck, it is at its most optimum or as near as dammit at the moment; several new ideas have been trialled in the sim and binned due to unworkability.
At the end of the day, the name of the game for us is to get you off frequency as quickly as possible, (obviously safely); if we could give you high speed all the way, believe me, we would!
We get hacked off constantly when we get you at 300+ knots 5 miles from GWC with A/C ahead. We have a good moan at En-route, but we do realise thast they need the speed to get your height off.
It's an old chestnut, but try to visit a centre and you may get an appreciation of how many different routes interact in the TMA, then you may begin to realise the complexity. Thats not just levelled at you, but at all aircrew.
Keep smiling
I find a frustrating thing is being instructed to maintain standard speeds (or even 220kt), only to be told by director (unprompted) that there is no speed control
If there is nothing at timba or willo, we will give you high speed. If their are other aircraft inbound to the other stack, then if we do not have the time, we will probably tell you standard speed, as we cannot second guess if the director intends snatching your flight off.
Normally, we will say 220kts (or holding speed) if there is holding taking place. hopefully this is not done too early so that you do not trundle along for no reason, however we are trying to prevent or minimise a hold for you.
Please remember we are taking aircraft inbound from several directions and feeding them through a choke point with departures at play as well. in the ideal world we would only work inbounds and we would have time to liaise more thouroughly for every flight with directoe.
as i am sure you are well aware though, the TMA is tight for space so it is not ideal.
If the frequency is quiet, then by all means ask. if it is busy, even if you are the only inbound but there are loads of outbounds and the frequency is busy, chances are you will be told standard speeds if you ask, just to keep you quiet. Not great, I know, but thats the reality. we are trying to re-design the south west sector airspace without any luck, it is at its most optimum or as near as dammit at the moment; several new ideas have been trialled in the sim and binned due to unworkability.
At the end of the day, the name of the game for us is to get you off frequency as quickly as possible, (obviously safely); if we could give you high speed all the way, believe me, we would!
We get hacked off constantly when we get you at 300+ knots 5 miles from GWC with A/C ahead. We have a good moan at En-route, but we do realise thast they need the speed to get your height off.
It's an old chestnut, but try to visit a centre and you may get an appreciation of how many different routes interact in the TMA, then you may begin to realise the complexity. Thats not just levelled at you, but at all aircrew.
Keep smiling
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We get hacked off constantly when we get you at 300+ knots 5 miles from GWC with A/C ahead. We have a good moan at En-route, but we do realise thast they need the speed to get your height off.
Normally Willo arrivals from Kathy are given pretty much unrestricted descents. So sitting upstairs we program the Willo3C route in the FMC (with the restriction of 250kt/FL130 at GWC) in. Wizzy box of tricks comes up with a profile for us, which we will generally use.
Next normal thing...FL250 descending, the track mailage shortens through the use of direct Avant or radar headings. The net result is the same - the track mileage is a lot shorter. The result is we are high and need speed (and speedbrake quite often to make FL130 at GWC).
I have probably stated the obvious to you guys/gals, having seen it quite a few times...So a suggestion (again, if I may).
If its possible, give us direct Avant from an early stage (i.e. before TOD). This will ensure that the FMC comes up with the right profile before we close the thust levers. The alternative is a STAR clearance of ... 'radar vectors towards Avant for a Willo3C'. [Probably didn't get the words quite right, just trying...] This way the FMC will get twiddled (nice word...) to refect the clearance and the 250 knot restriction at GWC can be met.
And yes, I would love to come down. Seen West Drayton once, but I was with a big group so it wasn't very personal...
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Cough,
understand totally your point about the shortening of route and the impact on making your level. unfortunately here at TC we tend to get you late and either high or fast... a real bugger, especially on easterlies!
I think you appreciate the merging of tracks tho, so although I like a good moan at Swanwick, I do understand their problems as well.
Although our (TMA) airspace is pretty unflexible and change is highly unlikely (due to sheer lack of space), there are plans afoot to change the routes for inbound and outbounds in the sam/kathy area which will hopefully give the chaps and chappesses at en-route a chance to get you guys streamed a bit better instead of passing on a snotty heap to us!!
As for a visit, I am sure that someone in your organisation must have a NATS or similar liaison type bod who has the relevant phone numbers.
Just be prepared to hear the phrase "it's usually busier than this" if and when you pitch up!!
understand totally your point about the shortening of route and the impact on making your level. unfortunately here at TC we tend to get you late and either high or fast... a real bugger, especially on easterlies!
I think you appreciate the merging of tracks tho, so although I like a good moan at Swanwick, I do understand their problems as well.
Although our (TMA) airspace is pretty unflexible and change is highly unlikely (due to sheer lack of space), there are plans afoot to change the routes for inbound and outbounds in the sam/kathy area which will hopefully give the chaps and chappesses at en-route a chance to get you guys streamed a bit better instead of passing on a snotty heap to us!!
As for a visit, I am sure that someone in your organisation must have a NATS or similar liaison type bod who has the relevant phone numbers.
Just be prepared to hear the phrase "it's usually busier than this" if and when you pitch up!!
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Yes it is frustrating!
We have been caught slowing to the SLP speed and admonished by ATC for slowing despite no speed control ( as it turned out they had a bunch behind!).
I love the one about the pilot who overheard the LCO ask for 05 when the hold was in use etc etc. Unless cleared to the hold fix and told to hold or given an EAT, I don't know that the hold is active. In the absence of an EAT, why not chance your arm, you might be in the right place at the right time...........or has ATC become the new "wait your turn" system despite other options available?
Cough,
We, when arriving via Kathy have worked on the basis of getting steered round the danger areas on as short a route as possible including S of GWC to Holly - Willo and planned descent accordingly. It does not always happen that way but having planned for the minimum distance we can easily adjust the profile for any "extended" routing.
Can't rely on the FMC to tell you exactly when to drop but with practice, it gets easier.
Regards,
DFC
We have been caught slowing to the SLP speed and admonished by ATC for slowing despite no speed control ( as it turned out they had a bunch behind!).
I love the one about the pilot who overheard the LCO ask for 05 when the hold was in use etc etc. Unless cleared to the hold fix and told to hold or given an EAT, I don't know that the hold is active. In the absence of an EAT, why not chance your arm, you might be in the right place at the right time...........or has ATC become the new "wait your turn" system despite other options available?
Cough,
We, when arriving via Kathy have worked on the basis of getting steered round the danger areas on as short a route as possible including S of GWC to Holly - Willo and planned descent accordingly. It does not always happen that way but having planned for the minimum distance we can easily adjust the profile for any "extended" routing.
Can't rely on the FMC to tell you exactly when to drop but with practice, it gets easier.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC
wise man!! i will often cut the corner and send you to holly missing GWC; if the previous sector has deigned to throw several of you at me in a bunch!!
with regards to not knowing if the hold is active; i have had a pilot; from a reputable airline; running into biggin ask, on a busy frequency, what do i do after biggin?
My reply was hold and he moaned.... the clearance limit is the hold fix and unless otherwise instructed, you must expect to hold.
If we are busy with outbounds etc, we do not have time to liaise with the director and get a heading off. if we can, we will get rid of you early enough so that he issue instructions before you hit the hold, but more often than not, we are trading levels between outbounds and inbounds... if we do not give outbounds a bit of a climb, it can get even messier 15 miles down the line!
wise man!! i will often cut the corner and send you to holly missing GWC; if the previous sector has deigned to throw several of you at me in a bunch!!
with regards to not knowing if the hold is active; i have had a pilot; from a reputable airline; running into biggin ask, on a busy frequency, what do i do after biggin?
My reply was hold and he moaned.... the clearance limit is the hold fix and unless otherwise instructed, you must expect to hold.
If we are busy with outbounds etc, we do not have time to liaise with the director and get a heading off. if we can, we will get rid of you early enough so that he issue instructions before you hit the hold, but more often than not, we are trading levels between outbounds and inbounds... if we do not give outbounds a bit of a climb, it can get even messier 15 miles down the line!
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Cough;
One question, well probably more than one <G>... If you KNOW that you are normally going to get a shortcut, and you KNOW that the FMS is going to NOT show you the correct start down point, why don't you start down a bit early??? We didn't seem to have these problems in the days of mainly steam guage aircraft. The crews KNEW what to expect for the most part and started down with the normal wag with a couple of miles thrown in. Now we see crews betting everything on what the FMS says. Depending on winds and track miles, the FMS does NOT know what is really needed. That is where EXPERIENCE comes to play and should be used.
Some of the check airman that I deal with as well as safety folks from different flying organisations all come to the same conclusions when we have our meets... Crews are NOT flying the aircraft as in the past. They are more and more going along for the ride and seeing what the automation is doing for them. I cringe when the days come that the last of the airman who flew both props and steam guage aircraft go away and all with what they know go with them. The days of true airmanship are going to be numbered <sigh>... Not unless some of the new folks start taking heed on how to FLY...
regards
Scott
One question, well probably more than one <G>... If you KNOW that you are normally going to get a shortcut, and you KNOW that the FMS is going to NOT show you the correct start down point, why don't you start down a bit early??? We didn't seem to have these problems in the days of mainly steam guage aircraft. The crews KNEW what to expect for the most part and started down with the normal wag with a couple of miles thrown in. Now we see crews betting everything on what the FMS says. Depending on winds and track miles, the FMS does NOT know what is really needed. That is where EXPERIENCE comes to play and should be used.
Some of the check airman that I deal with as well as safety folks from different flying organisations all come to the same conclusions when we have our meets... Crews are NOT flying the aircraft as in the past. They are more and more going along for the ride and seeing what the automation is doing for them. I cringe when the days come that the last of the airman who flew both props and steam guage aircraft go away and all with what they know go with them. The days of true airmanship are going to be numbered <sigh>... Not unless some of the new folks start taking heed on how to FLY...
regards
Scott
Scott,
I am afraid I have to disagree with you there . I have a responsibility to fly the aircraft as efficiently as possible. Both from an environmental position, and also from a "$70 USD a barrel" position. Starting down early just in case is a waste of fuel, and in general the FMC/FMGC will be the most efficient profile. I believe it is up to the authorities to arrange routings and altitude constraints that reflect this attitude. For me the FMC profile is a starting point, I then use speed to get off the height if the track is shortened.
I am afraid I have to disagree with you there . I have a responsibility to fly the aircraft as efficiently as possible. Both from an environmental position, and also from a "$70 USD a barrel" position. Starting down early just in case is a waste of fuel, and in general the FMC/FMGC will be the most efficient profile. I believe it is up to the authorities to arrange routings and altitude constraints that reflect this attitude. For me the FMC profile is a starting point, I then use speed to get off the height if the track is shortened.
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Scott,
Largely because Right way up is right!
From the fuel perspective, there is a world of difference in the descent between having the thrust levers closed and one in which V/S mode is used. Thrust levers closed gives about 200kg/hour per engine. Give it V/S and you see at least 700kg/hour per engine. 20 mins in the descent gives a difference of 300kg. Multiply that up by a large airline number of sectors and you can see why they prefer us to use all the facilities available to us to reduce this. If I fly 4 sectors a day then that is a tonne a day saving from me alone.
Why did I write the last post? To try and get the area guys to give us a hint as to what we can expect... We can then do what you want IF we know. Fair? If I want to get the best from my crew then effective briefing is the key. I don't see any difference from the flight crew/ATC perspective here, the only constraint being frequency congestion.... And that is another HUGE issue!
Largely because Right way up is right!
From the fuel perspective, there is a world of difference in the descent between having the thrust levers closed and one in which V/S mode is used. Thrust levers closed gives about 200kg/hour per engine. Give it V/S and you see at least 700kg/hour per engine. 20 mins in the descent gives a difference of 300kg. Multiply that up by a large airline number of sectors and you can see why they prefer us to use all the facilities available to us to reduce this. If I fly 4 sectors a day then that is a tonne a day saving from me alone.
Why did I write the last post? To try and get the area guys to give us a hint as to what we can expect... We can then do what you want IF we know. Fair? If I want to get the best from my crew then effective briefing is the key. I don't see any difference from the flight crew/ATC perspective here, the only constraint being frequency congestion.... And that is another HUGE issue!
