GUY GIBSON-SHOT DOWN BY THE RAF
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I'm suprised that this thread has lasted so long in the "Military" forum without being moved into "History and Nostalgia" like the thread on the Remaking of the Battle of Britain movie!
Mind you, I guess there are a lot of subjects on here that could be moved to "History and Nostalgia" - Vulcans, Nimrods, Harriers and Carriers spring to mind.
Mind you, I guess there are a lot of subjects on here that could be moved to "History and Nostalgia" - Vulcans, Nimrods, Harriers and Carriers spring to mind.
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I'm suprised that this thread has lasted so long in the "Military" forum without being moved into "History and Nostalgia
We can't start filing away our heroes in supporting threads.
Shame on you.
Without wishing to be as pedantic - it sounds like a light whisper
Haha, thanks for clearing that one up!
Like I said in my earlier posts, we will never know the truth, but debate is healthy.
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ColinB
I was being sarcastic; I can't see why the Battle of Britain Movie thread was moved either as there were lots of serving officers involved in that too, but I guess the Mods have some funny ideas at times.
Besides, it gave Beagle another opportunity to see Susanna York in full kit!
I was being sarcastic; I can't see why the Battle of Britain Movie thread was moved either as there were lots of serving officers involved in that too, but I guess the Mods have some funny ideas at times.
Besides, it gave Beagle another opportunity to see Susanna York in full kit!
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LLFC
I was trying satire, obviously unsuccessfully.
I have difficulty taking seriously other people, I don't mean you, who after 60-70 years begin second guessing an exceptional pilot who had survived many years in combat.
The Red Baron was allegedly shot down by a soldier with a rifle from the ground.
I suppose that no matter how talented you are in war quite often your luck eventually runs out.
I was trying satire, obviously unsuccessfully.
I have difficulty taking seriously other people, I don't mean you, who after 60-70 years begin second guessing an exceptional pilot who had survived many years in combat.
The Red Baron was allegedly shot down by a soldier with a rifle from the ground.
I suppose that no matter how talented you are in war quite often your luck eventually runs out.
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Colin
The other question is, does it really matter what caused the crash after so long ?
And as another poster mentioned, what about all the others that occurred.
No focus on them.
.
The other question is, does it really matter what caused the crash after so long ?
And as another poster mentioned, what about all the others that occurred.
No focus on them.
.
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Hello Colin
The giveway that it might be conjecture was in starting the sentence with "perhaps"
But on the question of selfish, its well known that he had to be sent away on a war bonds tour to the US due to his (some would call selfish) behaviour of shagging his brother officer's wives................
The giveway that it might be conjecture was in starting the sentence with "perhaps"
But on the question of selfish, its well known that he had to be sent away on a war bonds tour to the US due to his (some would call selfish) behaviour of shagging his brother officer's wives................
I'll mak siccar
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The dog used to hide in a wood pile.
A little late yet another of their top men, also black, arrived; spotted me; and observed -- a comment I still treasure -- at large:
"Aha! I smell a Caucasian in the wood pile!"
There's a lot of license taken with Gibson as indeed with others who attain almost mythical status. My grandfather worked with Gibson for a considerable period of time, and what may not be widely known is that his dog was actually called 'C**t' - This was changed to 'Ni**er' for the original film to avoid offending people.
Last edited by AR1; 15th Oct 2011 at 23:40.
My grandfather worked with Gibson for a considerable period of time, and what may not be widely known is that his dog was actually called 'C**t' - This was changed to 'Ni**er' for the original film to avoid offending people.
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Well it's a sight easier than 'uro-genital meatus of the female gender' . . .
Getting back to the original point of the post. I'm surprised to find that I actually don't care if he WAS shot down by one of ours.
I mean the gunner wouldn't have been sat in his turret, cold and on edge thinking - wow, I can blow away a Staish . . . there are no winners in 'blue on blue'. The bomber losses probably dictated, fire first and ask afterwards (it's always worked for the Navy).
Getting back to the original point of the post. I'm surprised to find that I actually don't care if he WAS shot down by one of ours.
I mean the gunner wouldn't have been sat in his turret, cold and on edge thinking - wow, I can blow away a Staish . . . there are no winners in 'blue on blue'. The bomber losses probably dictated, fire first and ask afterwards (it's always worked for the Navy).
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I have just been re reading a book titled Seven Pilots by Charles Graves (younger brother of Robert) published in1940/41 and in the final story on page 176 a fictional Beaufighter pilot named Hugh Calverley was warned about the dangers of doing patrols at the same altitude as British bombers , whose rear gunners were ( and are ) very quick on the trigger.
Anybody know where Charlers Graves got his knowledge of operational flying to write such a book?
Anybody know where Charlers Graves got his knowledge of operational flying to write such a book?
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His autobiography "The Bad Old Days" should inform. Also penned "Thin Blue Line or Adventures in the RAF", so seems he had some respect for the RAF. Listed as a journalist and writer. Worked on the Sunday Express, Daily Mail and many other newspapers, and penned 46 books in all. No mention of him having served.
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Fuel Selector Problem
I've just read the following Readers' Letter in the latest 'Aeroplane Monthly'. It does support the theory that Gibson had a fuel selector problem (and also confirms some peoples' opinion of him). However it remains a theory only.
Sir, Excellent issue on the "Dam Busters" -congratulations [Aeroplane May).
As an adjunct to that, I thought you might be interested in the story relating to Gibson's demise in September 1944.
During a recent visit to Scampton with the Airfield Research Group, I was amazed to see they have some pieces of Mosquito XX KB267, including a fuselage section with part of the serial number.
Back in 1999,1 was in my shop, Air Supply Aviation Store in Leeds, when and an elderly gentleman called to ask if I could repair a set of HiFi headphones. It was probably easier to replace them, but he insisted I repair them which I said I would, then he dashed off, muttering his apologies as he was in a hurry off to collect for the RAF Benevolent Fund.
He returned a couple of days later, and whilst in the shop we got talking and he said he had been a Mosquito pilot in the Second World War. "Which squadron?" I asked. "627 Squadron." was the reply. He introduced himself as Peter Mallender (Fit Lt, DFC.) He then went on to tell me some of his story, including how he had his flaps shot off on a low-level raid to Oslo Gestapo HQ.
He also told me that Wg Cdr Guy Gibson was flying his Mosquito, Canadian built MkXX KB267, when he lost his life. Knowing some of the controversy that surrounds that incident I asked him if he thought Gibson had been shot down. "Definitely not," he retorted, "He ran out of fuel!"
That evening, September 19,1944, Fit Lt Mallender had been briefed by his CO (Wg Cdr Elliott?) to "loan" his aircraft KB267 AZ-E to Gibson, and brief him, and Sqn Ldr Warwick, Gibson's navigator on the "vagaries" of the Canadian Mosquito. Gibson had told Mallender "No Need to tell me! I've flown a Mosquito before!" and he quickly ushered Warwick into the aircraft, and Peter was brusquely signalled away from the aircraft. When Gibson and Warwick did not return, Peter was fairly sure he knew what had happened. They had run out of fuel.
After the war ended, Peter was tasked with running a photographic unit taking aerial photographs of the bomb damage across Germany. He took the opportunity to visit the area of Gibson's crash, and met some "local" people who had witnessed it. There had been no gunfire at the time, and several had seen a torch or small light moving around in the cockpit. On the Canadian built Mosquito the fuel change-over cocks are in a different location to UK aircraft. Apparently Warwick had never flown in a Canadian aircraft.
Peter Mallender was of the opinion that Gibson had crashed due to lack of fuel, and the cause, in Peter's words, "...was due to his arrogance during that pre-flight briefing."
Peter, who lived locally, became a regular visitor to my premises, and we spent many happy hours chatting about his wartime adventures. Sadly Peter Mallender passed away a few years ago, but before he did, he presented me with a print copy of the painting "Gibson's Last Flight" by Charles M. Thompson GAvAA, the original of which he duly signed and which is now on display at Thorpe Camp Visitor Centre.
KEN COTHLIFF Via email
Polecat
Sir, Excellent issue on the "Dam Busters" -congratulations [Aeroplane May).
As an adjunct to that, I thought you might be interested in the story relating to Gibson's demise in September 1944.
During a recent visit to Scampton with the Airfield Research Group, I was amazed to see they have some pieces of Mosquito XX KB267, including a fuselage section with part of the serial number.
Back in 1999,1 was in my shop, Air Supply Aviation Store in Leeds, when and an elderly gentleman called to ask if I could repair a set of HiFi headphones. It was probably easier to replace them, but he insisted I repair them which I said I would, then he dashed off, muttering his apologies as he was in a hurry off to collect for the RAF Benevolent Fund.
He returned a couple of days later, and whilst in the shop we got talking and he said he had been a Mosquito pilot in the Second World War. "Which squadron?" I asked. "627 Squadron." was the reply. He introduced himself as Peter Mallender (Fit Lt, DFC.) He then went on to tell me some of his story, including how he had his flaps shot off on a low-level raid to Oslo Gestapo HQ.
He also told me that Wg Cdr Guy Gibson was flying his Mosquito, Canadian built MkXX KB267, when he lost his life. Knowing some of the controversy that surrounds that incident I asked him if he thought Gibson had been shot down. "Definitely not," he retorted, "He ran out of fuel!"
That evening, September 19,1944, Fit Lt Mallender had been briefed by his CO (Wg Cdr Elliott?) to "loan" his aircraft KB267 AZ-E to Gibson, and brief him, and Sqn Ldr Warwick, Gibson's navigator on the "vagaries" of the Canadian Mosquito. Gibson had told Mallender "No Need to tell me! I've flown a Mosquito before!" and he quickly ushered Warwick into the aircraft, and Peter was brusquely signalled away from the aircraft. When Gibson and Warwick did not return, Peter was fairly sure he knew what had happened. They had run out of fuel.
After the war ended, Peter was tasked with running a photographic unit taking aerial photographs of the bomb damage across Germany. He took the opportunity to visit the area of Gibson's crash, and met some "local" people who had witnessed it. There had been no gunfire at the time, and several had seen a torch or small light moving around in the cockpit. On the Canadian built Mosquito the fuel change-over cocks are in a different location to UK aircraft. Apparently Warwick had never flown in a Canadian aircraft.
Peter Mallender was of the opinion that Gibson had crashed due to lack of fuel, and the cause, in Peter's words, "...was due to his arrogance during that pre-flight briefing."
Peter, who lived locally, became a regular visitor to my premises, and we spent many happy hours chatting about his wartime adventures. Sadly Peter Mallender passed away a few years ago, but before he did, he presented me with a print copy of the painting "Gibson's Last Flight" by Charles M. Thompson GAvAA, the original of which he duly signed and which is now on display at Thorpe Camp Visitor Centre.
KEN COTHLIFF Via email
Polecat