Canberra wants more women in Aviation careers
The biggest problem with being a pilot in the current age is the rostering and its family unfriendly expectations
It's not the hours etc, after all, cabin crew do fairly similar hours etc and there's no shortage of ladies wanting to be cabin crew.
Basically that women are more likely to decide to do a job ( either within a career/ profession or an actual profession itself) that gives them the ability to have some sort of flexibility or control over time. The example she gave in an interview I listened to was that two identical law graduates, one male one female both start out at a prestigious firm, both in mergers and acquisitions, they’re required to be working any time 24/7, 2am Sunday the client needs you? You’re there.Go to Tokyo with four hours notice? You bet. Tough job but massive money in return. By the time both lawyers are 35 it is more likely that the female will have chosen a corporate role with a big company working more reliable hours with less travel than the male. When the pay data is crunched both lawyers fall in the same category, both graduated near the top of their class, both work full time, one earns $850k and the other $350k.
The reasons for women valuing ‘temporal flexibility’ more than males are a whole different subject and I know little about it, but the fact that they do is pretty well established from what I’ve read.
There is no scientific doubt that the sexes are very different physiologically, and then we obviously have social influences that have different results when applied to different people. Personally I think that encouragement is healthy but I would draw a line short of quotas. I’m not aware of any quotas in Australia though, can anyone give an example of one?
Aiming for 50/50 seems foolish to me but aiming to encourage women to enter aviation and having a stated goal of making the workplace an attractive place for them to be seems very sensible and I think everyone would benefit.
The biggest problem with being a pilot in the current age is the rostering and its family unfriendly expectations.
The following 4 users liked this post by framer:
Why the hell does it matter about having 50-50 male/female ratio? Best person for any job should be the sole decider in any employment opportunity. You don't fly planes/lift bags/make coffee with your genitals.
If I ever have to select a heart surgeon/lawyer to stop me going to prison etc I'm sure as hell I won't be selecting them based upon diversity quotas. I'll be selecting the best one for the job. I don't care if they male/female/trans/gay/straight/black/white/green.....
If I ever have to select a heart surgeon/lawyer to stop me going to prison etc I'm sure as hell I won't be selecting them based upon diversity quotas. I'll be selecting the best one for the job. I don't care if they male/female/trans/gay/straight/black/white/green.....
Who mentioned quotas?
The assumption that something is WRONG with the gender mix in an industry precedes the call for quotas. Same path at different stages.
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Any woman who wants a job in aviation can apply and skill up just like a man.
The assumption that something is WRONG with the gender mix in an industry precedes the call for quotas. Same path at different stages.
The assumption that something is WRONG with the gender mix in an industry precedes the call for quotas. Same path at different stages.
What would you know about the experience of women in aviation?
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I'm mixing in a group at the moment, there is one moaning (toxic) female whinging about not being considered for a particular job "because she's female", despite flying some equipment that most of the other pilots in the room would love the opportunity to fly. The pilots in the room rolling their eyes most at this whinger are the other female pilots.
I 100% agree the biggest issue for females in the industry is rostering but the next issue that creates is do we actively discriminate against the rest of the pilot cohort to accomodate women with kids?
Yes it would cost more on paper than the current set up because you would have to carry a few extra pilots in case your forecast of who wanted what was out, but you would have more females and males keen to work for you, less sick leave, less leaving for overseas, less fatigue, and more satisfied staff. I t(ink it’s just going to be a cost of doing business. The cost is actually already there but it’s just paid by the pilots and their families not the company.
Yes it would cost more.....
The cost is actually already there but it’s just paid by the pilots and their families not the company.
The cost is actually already there but it’s just paid by the pilots and their families not the company.
Yes it would cost more.....
The cost is actually already there but it’s just paid by the pilots and their families not the company.
The cost is actually already there but it’s just paid by the pilots and their families not the company.
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 5th Nov 2023 at 00:35. Reason: Extra context
Ahhh I understand now. Sorry, my mistake, I probably didn’t explain what I meant very well.
As I’m sure you’re aware there are many costs to being an Airline pilot other than the cost of becoming qualified and maintaining a medical etc.
Some examples being
a) you have to work on many public holidays
b) your partner and family get annoyed that the family can’t commit to bbq’s, weekends away, dinner parties, hiking trips etc etc because your roster isn’t out yet.
c) The family has to creep around the house when you need to be asleep at odd times
d) You can’t coach your child’s football team because you won’t be in town on Thursday evenings
e) You are grumpy because it’s 9:30pm and you’re still awake and your alarm is set to 3:15 am when 36 hours ago you were going to sleep at 2am
f) you start to forget things like your neighbours name when you are only 55 years old because of three decades of sleep disruption
g) You miss Christmas Day, Australia Day celebrations, Easter and your kids birthday every second year
h) you can’t plan a three week holiday to Europe in thirteen months time because you have zero idea what annual leave will be available to you
Historically these costs have always been borne by the pilot and his or her family in exchange for a very handsome salary. In 2023 the salary is no longer particularly handsome when compared to the plumber who lives two doors down, coaches the kids footy team, goes to bed at 10pm every night and takes two weeks off every Christmas, and as such pilots are no longer feeling adequately compensated for the costs borne by their families.
There are two ways to ensure an adequate supply of pilots continues to be available to Airlines;
1/ Increase the salary to the level that makes pilots feel like it is worth it
2/ Keep salaries similar to what they are now but facilitate rosters that are more family friendly.
Option 2 probably costs a similar amount as increasing salaries but it makes the career more attractive to people who value ‘temporal flexibility’, regardless of their sex. It just so happens that women, on average, place a higher value on temporal flexibility.
It is a paradigm shift that Airline executives have to make in the coming decade and if they are slower than the competition to make that shift, they will find themselves constrained in their ability to maintain market share.
As I’m sure you’re aware there are many costs to being an Airline pilot other than the cost of becoming qualified and maintaining a medical etc.
Some examples being
a) you have to work on many public holidays
b) your partner and family get annoyed that the family can’t commit to bbq’s, weekends away, dinner parties, hiking trips etc etc because your roster isn’t out yet.
c) The family has to creep around the house when you need to be asleep at odd times
d) You can’t coach your child’s football team because you won’t be in town on Thursday evenings
e) You are grumpy because it’s 9:30pm and you’re still awake and your alarm is set to 3:15 am when 36 hours ago you were going to sleep at 2am
f) you start to forget things like your neighbours name when you are only 55 years old because of three decades of sleep disruption
g) You miss Christmas Day, Australia Day celebrations, Easter and your kids birthday every second year
h) you can’t plan a three week holiday to Europe in thirteen months time because you have zero idea what annual leave will be available to you
Historically these costs have always been borne by the pilot and his or her family in exchange for a very handsome salary. In 2023 the salary is no longer particularly handsome when compared to the plumber who lives two doors down, coaches the kids footy team, goes to bed at 10pm every night and takes two weeks off every Christmas, and as such pilots are no longer feeling adequately compensated for the costs borne by their families.
There are two ways to ensure an adequate supply of pilots continues to be available to Airlines;
1/ Increase the salary to the level that makes pilots feel like it is worth it
2/ Keep salaries similar to what they are now but facilitate rosters that are more family friendly.
Option 2 probably costs a similar amount as increasing salaries but it makes the career more attractive to people who value ‘temporal flexibility’, regardless of their sex. It just so happens that women, on average, place a higher value on temporal flexibility.
It is a paradigm shift that Airline executives have to make in the coming decade and if they are slower than the competition to make that shift, they will find themselves constrained in their ability to maintain market share.
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I've been 35 years a professional pilot, inspired by Neil Armstrong, never had any barriers in my way other than money. If someone wants to be a pilot, they can be a pilot.
In 32 years instructing, only a handful of women are interested in learning to fly and only a tiny minority of those actually finish. Most of them just aren't interested enough to see it through. It is what it is.
Those of us who are keen enough to make a career out of it don't need a leg up from a paternalistic minister and people looking at all of us as if we are tokens.
This looks to me like the *cough* "qualified and experienced suppliers" ie the ones on the vet loan gravy train, looking for the so generous govenrment to find more people to sign up. Not enough women crippled with student loans yet, obviously.
Maybe the students already qualified should secure a job before they are allowed to sign up another one?
I'd like to see some stats on how many start at the integrated schools, male and female, how many finish, how many find a job within three months of qualifying.
Oh wait...anyone can say they are a woman now. Are they actually allowed to specify a binary identity? Surely someone somewhere is offended?
In 32 years instructing, only a handful of women are interested in learning to fly and only a tiny minority of those actually finish. Most of them just aren't interested enough to see it through. It is what it is.
Those of us who are keen enough to make a career out of it don't need a leg up from a paternalistic minister and people looking at all of us as if we are tokens.
This looks to me like the *cough* "qualified and experienced suppliers" ie the ones on the vet loan gravy train, looking for the so generous govenrment to find more people to sign up. Not enough women crippled with student loans yet, obviously.
Maybe the students already qualified should secure a job before they are allowed to sign up another one?
I'd like to see some stats on how many start at the integrated schools, male and female, how many finish, how many find a job within three months of qualifying.
Oh wait...anyone can say they are a woman now. Are they actually allowed to specify a binary identity? Surely someone somewhere is offended?
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Ahhh I understand now. Sorry, my mistake, I probably didn’t explain what I meant very well.
As I’m sure you’re aware there are many costs to being an Airline pilot other than the cost of becoming qualified and maintaining a medical etc.
Some examples being
a) you have to work on many public holidays
b) your partner and family get annoyed that the family can’t commit to bbq’s, weekends away, dinner parties, hiking trips etc etc because your roster isn’t out yet.
c) The family has to creep around the house when you need to be asleep at odd times
d) You can’t coach your child’s football team because you won’t be in town on Thursday evenings
e) You are grumpy because it’s 9:30pm and you’re still awake and your alarm is set to 3:15 am when 36 hours ago you were going to sleep at 2am
f) you start to forget things like your neighbours name when you are only 55 years old because of three decades of sleep disruption
g) You miss Christmas Day, Australia Day celebrations, Easter and your kids birthday every second year
h) you can’t plan a three week holiday to Europe in thirteen months time because you have zero idea what annual leave will be available to you
As I’m sure you’re aware there are many costs to being an Airline pilot other than the cost of becoming qualified and maintaining a medical etc.
Some examples being
a) you have to work on many public holidays
b) your partner and family get annoyed that the family can’t commit to bbq’s, weekends away, dinner parties, hiking trips etc etc because your roster isn’t out yet.
c) The family has to creep around the house when you need to be asleep at odd times
d) You can’t coach your child’s football team because you won’t be in town on Thursday evenings
e) You are grumpy because it’s 9:30pm and you’re still awake and your alarm is set to 3:15 am when 36 hours ago you were going to sleep at 2am
f) you start to forget things like your neighbours name when you are only 55 years old because of three decades of sleep disruption
g) You miss Christmas Day, Australia Day celebrations, Easter and your kids birthday every second year
h) you can’t plan a three week holiday to Europe in thirteen months time because you have zero idea what annual leave will be available to you
Last edited by Traffic_Is_Er_Was; 5th Nov 2023 at 10:15.
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To be honest, almost all of those "costs" are experienced by workers in myriad 24/7 industries, and many don't paid anywhere near what an airline pilot gets paid. You think the cleaner walking in beside you from the staff car park on Christmas Day is on 6 figures a year? If you want to have a normal life, then you can't work an abnormal job. It's still a pretty handsome salary in the great scheme of things (considering that plumber down the road is probably doing at least 50-60hr weeks) Whether it's worth it or not is a decision only you can make. There's always option B.
I think it will likely be a career that for many will start off with the common attitude of "I'm not doing this for the money" but then when the reality of the job starts to set in in their late 30s/early 40s, many will just exit the industry only for the next lot to come up the line in the same process.
At the moment the ones who are able to have the freedom to make such choices are those with rich parents. A topic for another thread but I wonder how many of the large number of Rex cadets (making around the same as a Mcdonalds manager) are only able to support themselves with outside assistance. There also seem to be a particularly large number who manage to shell out the large fee to break their 7 year bond, I also don't think this would be possible if their only income stream was their S340 first officer wage.
The industry will be dependent on those who are already swimming in money in their formative years, but will move on when the "I'm not in it for the money" attitude is no longer cutting the mustard.
To be honest, almost all of those "costs" are experienced by workers in myriad 24/7 industries, and many don't paid anywhere near what an airline pilot gets paid. You think the cleaner walking in beside you from the staff car park on Christmas Day is on 6 figures a year? If you want to have a normal life, then you can't work an abnormal job. It's still a pretty handsome salary in the great scheme of things (considering that plumber down the road is probably doing at least 50-60hr weeks) Whether it's worth it or not is a decision only you can make. There's always option B.
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To be honest, almost all of those "costs" are experienced by workers in myriad 24/7 industries, and many don't paid anywhere near what an airline pilot gets paid.
You think the cleaner walking in beside you from the staff car park on Christmas Day is on 6 figures a year?
If you want to have a normal life, then you can't work an abnormal job.
What I am trying to get across is that the elements of the pilot role that make it an ‘abnormal job’ need or either be compensated handsomely through high salaries when compared to the median salary, or, the abnormal elements themselves need to be reduced.
The relationship between the pilots salary and the nations median salary has been reducing and as such pilots feel less ‘well off’.
Whether it's worth it or not is a decision only you can make. There's always option B.
The number of people willing to choose option B is a concern to Airline executives world wide. Newspapers and magazines are discussing it, boardrooms are discussing it, Chinese and US Airlines are throwing money at it. It is a thing.
Like I said earlier, there is an advantage to both Airline executives and pilots in attacking the problem from the lifestyle end rather than boosting salaries like they have in the US. The advantage for Airlines is that a giant untapped pool of candidates would be more interested in the career path ( any people who value temporal flexibility). The advantage for all pilots is temporal flexibility ( ie more time to meet family commitments, travel, pursue hobbies etc).
Thanks for the discussion, I’m enjoying thinking about this topic. I feel optimistic that the pressure on Airlines to retain pilots combined with AI powered rostering will make Airline flying great again.