Aer Turas shut down today!

[BeePee]

Just got several calls from some friends:

Today Aer Turas went into receivership! :uhoh: The company called all employees today to break the news. Sounds like this is the end of it. Some guys are owed big time in terms of salaries. :{

The final nail in the coffin was a seized #2 engine on their DC8-63F which is now sitting in OST. They have had cash flow problems since quite some time and each simple mxx problem became extended AOG due to the lack of spares. :ouch:

At the end they had a pretty good contract with TMA but it wasn’t good enough to turn the tide.

As far as I know the disappearance of Aer Turas means that there is no independent JAR Ops freight AOC left at all. This should make people think. Why is it that all European freight airlines go bust?! Maybe it is time that politicians start to act and protect the interests of European Airlines against so called ‘Third World Airlines’ that are nothing but AOC of convenience busting the market with their low cost – low quality – low safety standards operations. :yuk: :( :}

Time are tough and my sympathy to all those guys. I hope that PC does what I did and pays all back pay out of private pocket.

Good luck to all
;)
BeePee

[acmi48]

always sad when a company ends, the dc8, was that ex lxacv/cxbjv ..from days gone by??
As for jar aoc independants in europe goes couple of good icelandic prospects in the small market and one very large happy wide body operator still around,and yes the low cost(?) operators

i wish all the employees of aer turas good luck in their futures and safe landings wherever they may go,maybe MOL can find the secret to a low cost jar operator and turn the tables on the jackals

[BeePee]

Oops, forgot about the Icelandics...

But I don't count Cargolux as "independent'...

It is a real shame that they go one by one!

BeePee

[Hwel]

Define independent? Channex , Atlantic.
besides the icelandics are not EU anyway.

[B727]

Don't forget the 'other' Irish Independent cargo airline. Still plying it's trade with A300, B722, C130 & ATR freighters.

Really sad to see Turas finally give in. :sad:

Best wishes to all,
B727

[BeePee]

@ Hwel,

'independent JAR Ops freight AOC' for international traffic. 'independent' defined as not being part of, dependent on or otherwise controlled by a major carrier, government, major corporation, etc. So we are talking about a nice operation owned and managed by private individuals who are using their private money.

I’m not talking about small local AOCs either. Are Channex still operating the A300s, I thought they had gotten rid of them?

BTW: Iceland is part of the JAA thus their airlines are JAR.

Cheers
BeePee

[Alloy]

Channex still have A300s.

[BeePee]

Didn't want to start a contest of finding if there are still some independent operators out there. That's why I said "As far as I know".

The point is that JAR Ops cargo airlines are going bust because they can't compete with the cost, quality and safety busters. Without European cargo airlines we have to rely on those operators who have a terrible track record - no names mentioned here. Everybody knows what I'm talking about.

Cheers
BeePee

[bugg smasher]

“a nice operation owned and managed by private individuals who are using their private money”

Don’t know much about the Aer Turas operation being described above, but here in the US we have a few DC-8 freight operators who would more closely be described as;

“a ratbag ragtag operation owned and managed by nasty individuals who are using other people’s private money” (They rain nuts and bolts on houses every takeoff.)

Must be nice to be European.

[BeePee]

@ bugg smasher,

"Must be nice to be European." - not anymore ;)

“a ratbag ragtag operation owned and managed by nasty individuals who are using other people’s private money” (They rain nuts and bolts on houses every takeoff.) - that's exactly my point! :yuk: And that's the main direction Europe has chosen to take! :{

I used to be one of those 'private individuals who owned and managed their operation'. I'm still trying to pay the banks but at least I made sure that everybody got their pay check at the end.

Yes I made mistakes as well but that wasn't the reason why we went down. At least I can sleep well at night.

Greetings
BeePee

[Wycombe]

....and Discovery Wings still keep showing "Sky Truckers", so they must owe you lots of royalty ;)

Still the best docu I've seen about airfreight ops though.

[evolante]

Anyone know the name of the Receiver??

[Nopax,thanx]

Sorry to hear it....my first experience of Aer Turas was their DC-4 running horses into Cambridge in the seventies.

BTW, does anyone know what happened to the people from the L-1011 operation out of STN in '98? Nearly took a job there once.

[AerCargo]

Yes, sadly Aer Turas has ceased operations and a receiver has been appointed. The company gave it it's best shot, but alas, it wasn't to be.
The DC8-63F EI-CGO had an engine problem and that was the nail in the coffin, there was no other option and the ethical and honourable course was taken.

The company started flying way back in 1962 with a DeHavilland Dragon Rapide and down though the years operated a wide variety of Aircraft including;
DC3
DC4
DC6
DC8
CL44
Britannia
Bristol Freighter
L1011 Passenger aircraft

When things were good, they really were good. DC8 operations on long term wet leases for Saudia, Aer Lingus and DHL. Sadly, those contracts dried up as EI got their A330's and Saudi got a whole fleet of MD11-F's. This necessitated parking DC8-63F EI-BNA out in Marana where it still lies.

So a sad day for everyone involved, many people have been here 20+ years. The CEO joined circa 1968 and was responsible for Aer Turas joining the Jet age and getting these lucrative contracts. And of course down to through the years we have taken some of the worlds finest thoroughbreds from Ireland to the US/UK/France/UAE etc.

BeePee, I think you should be honest and admit that not every airline CEO has the vast family wealth that you do to fall back on, that would enable you to pay creditors out of your back pocket. That's the not the case for someone like PC who has no fall back like that.

And please do not post his name on this forum like that, I gathered on PPRuNE that private names were not to be used.

In the meantime, if anyone knows airlines that can take a group of excellent DC8 crewmembers post the information here.

And before anyone asks, I am not the (ex)CEO, I do/did work in the office here and have many happy memories from my time spent here.:ok:

[CargoOne]

ok we all should admit AerTuras experienced very strong competition from AIA and recently from Azerbajan/SilkAir and defenately JAR OPS AOC is much more costly than 3rd world AOC.

from other point during last half a year or more they had a pretty good utilization on daily runs ex CAI and AMM, I would even say very good for old narrowbody freighter. if after that operator of single airplane went into receivership just becuase of the engine blown and no money to cover replacement - something was really wrong. either contract terms/rates or management. just my $0.02

Maybe it is time that politicians start to act and protect the interests of European Airlines against so called ‘Third World Airlines’ that are nothing but AOC of convenience busting the market with their low cost – low quality – low safety standards operations"

BeePee
airlines are not disappearing just because they cannot compete with 3rd world AOC holders. I'm quite sure you are still aware of today DC8 adhoc/acmi market involving Europe as destionation/origin. all charter brokers I know are pretty happy with AIA services and flexibility. So "low quality" is not the point. "Low safety standarts"? It depends. If we are talking about MK - yes. But what's about AIA? They are more active on adhoc at this stage. At least at this moment I never heard about any accident related to them, so it is not 100% true to combine 3rd world AOC and "low safety" into one thing. Low cost? Yep, that's the point. However you missed AirAtlanta, who growing every day, Channex, Atlantic to name but a few, even considering UK is most expensive country on our planet for AOC placement. As I mentioned above, if airline having 1 airplane utilized at max possible goes into receivership becuase of the engine - something wrong inside, not outside.

[AerCargo]

CargoOne, Utilisation was not great. There was no "daily runs" ex CAI and AMM, in fact it went as low as 100 hrs per month. When you're also running at rock bottom rates and have one aircraft flying and that aircraft goes tech, you have no revenues coming in. It's simple ABC's. The margins are so tight nowadays.

You need in excess of 200 hours per month to really get into the black, post Sep 11th, those opportunities just aren't there. The market is still very slack and companies can squeeze the life out of operators.

CargoOne, please get your facts right before making comments and guessing on the circumstances. You're way off the mark.

[CargoOne]

AerCargo
sounds strange. sometime (say 1/2 year or even before) ago I asked brokers to quote me subcharter on a DC8, specifiying that I would prefer to deal with AerTuras as one and only EU operator (T/R issues), and they all said "ahhh you know they are not available because now they doing daily CAI-OST (or BRU or MST? cannot remember) instead of this funny "stage III" Egyptian 707 (AirMemphis). later on I heard you swiched to AMM for TMA for the similar daily runs, and daily run means 200+ hours a month. I'm not pretending to be 100% competent on AerTuras, but what I've said is based on my talks with brokers, and brokers would not deny me from chartering one airline instead of other because they would have their commision in any case.

[BeePee]

@ AerCargo,

OK, changed my first post according your wish. :ok:

Regarding the source of the funding to pay the backlog of salaries at the end, well, you're totally wrong. I went and got personal bank loans to come up with that cash. Today I owe the banks more money than I ever invested into Cargo Lion in the first place. Yes, some hopefully distand day I'll inherit enough to service that debt. But life goes on and there is no reason for regrets. If I hadn't payed the staff I couldn't sleep well. Today I'm still in close contact with many of them (this years BBQ we were 38!) and some went to Aer Turas. PC can do it as well. He'll find ways.

@ CargoOne,

Sorry m8 but you are wrong. Earlier I purposely said "no names mentioned". But as you so strongly mention AIA: Yes they are operating on an AOC of convenience but at least they always upheld standards and prices. They are among the few who try to run a professional operation and they haven't created the kind of pressure that causes the JAR Ops operators to go down.

But nevertheless the large number so called ‘Third World Airlines’ and our politicians are responsible. Show me one JAR Ops operator in this market with sustained success. At the moment maybe the Icelandics might do it. We'll see.

Greetings
BeePee

[gsmithEIDW]

I'll miss seeing the graceful working museum peice that was EI-CGO on its occasional visits back to Dublin. DC8's are a dying breed - particularly ones which weren't re-engined with CFM units in the 1980's.

How many air hours did that aircraft have? Apparently DC8 airframes are cabable of extraordinary total air hours.
The DC8 must have been very difficult to source spares for at this stage - there are only a handful of 63F series left.

I think an orbiturary for the cargo operator would be more fitting than an inquest into why it has gone under.

That an ex-employee can speak so highly of Aer Turas at this sort of news means it must have been an especially good place to work. TransAer (now returned from the ashes as EU Jet-ops) is another company I've heard similar employee praise from.

I wonder what will become of the two DC8's - probably scrappage - although I hope they can be returned to flight. I'm quite young so I can only remember as far back as Aer Turas having the Canadair CL44's but I'd love to know more of its past - I'd say there are some interesting stories!

G.

[CargoOne]

BeePee,
OK, if you admit AIA is a good operation and keeping the price level, then is comes more interesing: if they can support 4x DC8 operation and no signs they going buncrupt while operating offshore, then why it happend to AerTuras? There are only 4 DC8F operators on European market for last few years (AerTuras, AIA, MK and Silk; Silk came in less than a year ago), so why AT failed, especially considering they were only EU operator with no t/r issues ex/to EU? Do you think it have something to do with a crew salaries? I doubt.

[BeePee]

@ CargoOne,

You start getting my point. That's why AT went down. Polictics. Examples: When stage III was introduced. JAR Ops operators had to comply and foreign operators were granted exemptions for years. When a foreign ops wanted a 5th freedom out of Europe: granted against European ops objection. When same European ops wanted 5th freedom out of Africa: denied based on foreign ops objection, etc. etc. etc.

I can't go into too many details here as I still have a number of court cases ongoing in Lux for the next several years. But I hope the outcome of that will be a change of policy.

OK for me case closed for the moment, sihning off. :cool:

Greetings
BeePee

[AerCargo]

CargoOne, your information is way off, Aer Turas never flew out of CAI. At the start of the year the aircraft flew on Air Memphis/RJ routes AMM-MST-AMM, wheich trickled down to a few a week. Then came TMA which you should know, are based in BEY. The promise was big flying but again these trickled down to flying over the weekend on the BEY-OST, BEY-ORY flights and not enough to be sustainable.

It has been a bad few years, foot and mouth hit our bloodstock flights badly, a huge amount of revenue was lost there and then of course 9/11 and US flights which were always great revenue earners for us dissapeared. US customs then introduced a ludicrous demand that airlines must have a US customs bond worth $100,000 to fly into the US. This was a killer and even Aer Lingus was worried for a time on that. DC8's can't operate anymore out of LGG which rules out TNT of course, another good revenue earner. With the DC8 nowadays you're really only looking at Europe-Africa/Middle east. You've got low cost carriers offering unrealistic rates to charterers just to keep cash flow going. The way the EU is going DC8's will probably be finished in a few years anyway.

It's a Lessors market now and they know it, they can squeeze and squeeze.

[acmi48]

not really a lessors market in the long term, but good demand for charter in the short term, ie:contracts for the middle east are being distributed to us and uk FRT operators( reg) and nobodies around to pick up on it in the uk, such a shame.
i for one would love to piggy back a competitive charter operation under the umbrella of the mother carriers jars et all. as there is a demand for this, and this is where our african registered friends are thriving, there was a thread a while back questioning the ethics of the caa's who register these aircraft but each country they fly to requires an audit on the carrier and they are approved.
why did nt aer turas re-equip ?? or go one size up

[BRISTOLRE]

Lets not forget Al Dawood when we talk DC8s an EU routes.

[gsmithEIDW]

There had been a rumour for a while of Aer Turas buying DC10's to replace the DC8's. But I believe the two DC8's were difficult to sell.

Was EI-BNA costing much money to park in the middle east all these years? If so that must have been a drain that the company could do without.

How many people are out of work with the demise of Aer Turas?

G.

[luimni]

I flew at Aer Turas for two years and I have to say it was the best job I worked at. They paid on time and treated the staff fairly. We flew to unusual places and stayed at the best of hotels. Each flight was well catered and the staff there were A1. It was as close to a country club lifestyle as one could get. And the DC-8 always got you home. And I do miss sitting on the ramp in Khartoum, Sudan with no air conditioning in 42 degree heat waiting for lamb carcass to be unloaded! I miss working with the guys there, especilaay some of the characters like the loadmasters !!!!!
sad to see the place go.:(

[Bozzo]

BeePee,

Your haste in making this post can almost be seen as using the demise of Aer Turas as further justification of your own failure with Cargo Lion.

While there is no doubt that the non European, flags of convenience, airlines make life very difficult for independent all-cargo operators this is not the only factor in success or failure.

AIA while on a non European AOC provides a high standard and safe operation at competitive costs. They certainly make liberal use of flight time and duty limitations but this is not the crucial factor in airlines success.

What does AIA have that Cargo Lion did not? In two words, "Effective Management". AIA also has a strong maintenance commitment. If your planes cannot fly you cannot keep contracts.

Selection of the right personnel in the right place is crucial. The joker unaffectionately referred to as the "Weasel" took Cargo Lion for a ride - but you selected him!! The previous maintenance manager was totally incompetent - but you selected him!!

Purchasing a DC10 at the top of the market without firm contracts, AND when all others are going down the 747 road; forgetting to put the butter on the bread by allowing the DC8 maintenance to deteriorate thereby losing contract after contract, are all examples of poor management, your management.

Still it was a good try and I give you credit for looking after the troops in the end. It is just a pity you did not see the light earlier, especially with the Weasel.

Bozzo

[BeePee]

@ Bozzo,

You don't really beleave what you're writing here, do you. Specially after your recent experience of your own "Effective Management". :( But I guess you always need someone to blame.

[palebird]

Geez BeePee you sure whinge a lot.For someone with a fortune in his backpocket I don't feel sorry for your having to pay out salaries(and you did not pay everyone out, only those who sucked hard). But I digress. The failure of AT is unfortunate but was a long time coming. Country club atmosphere, best hotels, characters. Even the majors cannot afford all of this so how can 1 DC8 support it? The reason for the failure of the "independant" freight carriers from the EU is simple. Poor management. If you think the answer lies in the courts well good luck.There are two freight operators who have flourished with 707's,DC10's,DC8's and 747's while a lot of the rest have gone down. Face it boys you are being outmanoeuvred to the max and you will not beat them. Can't argue with success even if you do not like it/them.

[bugg smasher]

Bozzo, I do not have any inside knowledge of the operations being described above, but it seems to me that you attack on a highly personal and vituperative level.

“Better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all” appears to be the operative phrase here, my personal assessment of your attitudes leads me to believe that you wouldn’t risk your own bike, my friend, let alone the family jewels to pursue life’s most closely held dreams and ambitions.

Before you embarrass yourself further, perhaps you should back off mate, you go too far. BP seems a decent and good man, I don’t really know, you are free to dispute that. I object strongly, however, to your self-aggrandizing monopoly of the moral high ground.

BP, good on ya mate, may the Phoenix rise gloriously from the ashes of destruction, and the Lion roar once more. Life is short my friend; take no names, kick some ass, and make it count!!

[alapt]

Seems like alot of people cannot assume their identity and standby their statements....Lack of testicules I guess, losers!
May the Lion roar again. I believe most of us were paid for the time we worked, but our "legal" contracts were not respected. Unfortunately, that is the name of the game when you are off-shore and work for small companies.......Good luck to all.:sad:

[BeePee]

@ palebird,

Ah, here you are again... You're wrong as usual: Every salary to my knowledge (in accordance with the listing / calculations made by accounts) was paid out. I even paid those three people who went to that union who stirred all that crap but did nothing to help. After over a year one pilot claims he didn't get one month of salary but my bank statement says otherwise. Due to the long time I was unable to track where that money went to.

What wasn't paid was your 500'000 USD claim / law suit for unfair dismissal! :mad: Further, the government was supposed to pay the notice period but didn’t in most cases. Without that union incident I could have paid a part of it.

‘Poor management’ and ‘with a fortune in his back pocket’: I’ve commented on that before… ‘If you think the answer lies in the courts well good luck.’ – You simply don’t know what you’re talking about! :ouch:


@ bugg smasher,

Thanks M8, it’s nice to see that there are some decent people on this forum.

“Better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all” – you couldn’t have put it in better words.:rolleyes:

@ Bozzo,

I agree with you to a certain extent regarding the ‘weasel’. I was mistaken when I believed that I could control that guy. He ended up filling is pockets but what goes around, comes around. Now he’s paying a terrible price: Today he’s in a situation where he is in desperate need for friends and has none left.

@ alapt

Thanks M8 (in the name of all 38 attendants), I still have that taste of your wonderful BBQ work ;) in my mouth. See you soon. :p




It’s truly amazing that the handful of guys who spit poison on me in this forum are about the same that were themselves a ‘contributing factor’ to what went on at Cargo Lion. And they do it anonymously on this forum without giving away their identity to the average reader. For those few who still have a doubt on mine: BeePee = Bertram Pohl. I never claimed that I didn’t make mistakes; neither did I claim that this wasn’t a contributing factor. However none of these contributing factors were the direct cause of what happened.

Who knows once all that legal crap going on at the moment is over and provided me getting hungry again, maybe there could be a Phoenix rising again? But it won’t be soon. So for all those who think they can do it better please do it as right now this industry needs some brilliant minds to come up with new ideas (and companies, jobs, etc.). :ok:

Cheers
BeePee

[acmi48]

always a shame to see grown ups cat fighting in public,its all down to money in the end.shame to after cargolion's demise, that the uk's premier cargo operator .milton keynes airways steps into the void

back to original post,aer turas still hold an aoc i guess and the phoenix can rise again

[CR2]

As acmi48 has just mentioned, the subject as far as I recall, is Aer Turas.
Please start another thread if you want to re-hash all the CargoLion stuff.

[BeePee]

Test new signature. Hmm doesn't work.

[dc8loadie]

Does anyone have the details of the receiver as i am sure a lot of people who are owed wages or money would be interested.:confused:

[gsmithEIDW]

aer turas still hold an aoc i guess and the phoenix can rise again

You think Aer Turas could return?! I would be very surprised, but it would be great if they could have another stab at things. I think there is a niche there still but it seems so narrow. Maybe if AT could bolster the cargo operations with more marketable aircraft for leasing.

Many operations do return from the ashes - Transaer is back (well vaguely!) as EU-Jetops for example.

Any inside info on the fate of the two DC8's ? EI-CGO and EI-BNA
- rumours circulating saying that BNA is to be b/u in Marena.

I read on another news thread that it has reached its max hours (although on paper seems to have less cycles/hours than CGO).
Presumably its in poor condition due to being in storage so long.

G.

[gsmithEIDW]

Ok just heard another rumour that EI-BNA is now back flying for DHL ?!
G.

[AerCargo]

I can assure you that EI-BNA is definitely not flying fo DHL! It is in Marana, Arizona at the evergreen facility under an IAA approved storage programme.

It would be perfectly OK to fly for many more years to come but needs a 'D' check and is only stage II noise. It would also need TCAS and RVSM fitted and is not RNAV compliant. So the cost if getting it flying is high.

It's a shame as she was a great aircraft, original freighter so no problems with the cargo door etc.

[spagiola]

What happened to Aer Turas L-1011 operations? They had several flying on pax charters on behalf of other airlines not so very long ago, if memory serves. Why was that discontinued?

[411A]

Because the hot-shot playboy involved didn't pay his bills when he should...crews still owed two months wages, last I heard.

[AerCargo]

Just to make it clear about 411A's post above. That had nothing to do with Aer Turas. The L1011's were just put on the Aer Turas AOC. Aer Turas had no ownership etc of the aircraft. The "hot-shot" playboy owned the aircraft, controlled the aircraft commercially and paid all monies regarding the Tri-Stars. The "hot-shot" playboy never worked for Aer Turas but was based in the UK and had his own company, TBG. So payment of salaries, bills etc are nothing to do with Aer Turas.

A pity the pax ops stopped, as when it was flying, the operation was great. I'm sure some people remember EI-CNN flying in the summer of '99 for Air Scandic out of MAN. All the crews stayed in the Brittania. EI-CNN is alas, in AUH where it has been since the end of '99.

[spagiola]

Does anyone have the details of the receiver as i am sure a lot of people who are owed wages or money would be interested.

You can find them here (http://www.irishaviation.net/forums/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000921.html).
.

[tspark]

What's the dig at safety at MK? Was looking at a job there!

[Civil Servant]

AerCArgo,

Willing to be shown to be wrong, but as I understand it the 1011 operation was not owned by ATT as you correctly state.

However, my understanding of things is that the airline, TBG Airways, was jointly owned by the hotshot and the owner of ATT on a 50-50 cost/profit sharing scheme. I know that the engines on CNN were owned by a company jointly owned by the pair and I think it was called "astra" or some such thing. TBG Airways was a subsidiary of TBG and Astra a separate entity. Rather like the Maxwell empire but not nearly as smart. So, although ATT did not actually own TBG, there must have been a fair bit of loot tied up in it, so when it went down it must have had a knock on effect on ATT.

The reason the operation stopped was there were insufficient funds in the pot for the extra work needed on the CNN's C check. I understand that there was enough for the basic check but not enough to cover the extra cost of repairing some corrosion that was found. Hotshot was unable to raise extra funding from anyone because of the reasons already raised by 411A.

Hotshots gameplan to get out of this dilemma rested in securing a deposit from some Algerian outfit to operate out of there doing services around the middle east. Trouble was no money was ever forthcoming and there was a huge problem persuading the staff that living in hotac in Algiers was really going to be OK and anyway we'd have armed guards on the way to and from the airport. This at a time when the news reports and papers were full of the latest atrocities committed by the rebels. I know I had already spent too much time as a "legitimate target" and certainly didn't want any more.

I am still owed money by them as are many others and I didn't even get the courtessy of a letter saying I was no longer employed.

I wish everyone at ATT all the best and hope they find a new job very soon.

CS