Official : British Airways Retires Concorde (merged)

[Pax Vobiscum]

See Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-640048,00.html)

Apologies for starting another 'Concorde to be killed off by BA' thread. I sincerely hope this is just journalistic hype (possibly based on the recent PPRuNe thread).

[ORAC]

LONDON (Reuters) - Europe's biggest carrier British Airways Plc. said on Wednesday that a decision on the fate of its supersonic Concorde fleet was imminent, amid reports the world's fastest commercial planes could soon be pulled from service.

"We are looking at when the Concorde will be retiring. The process is at an advanced stage, but it is ... very much watch this space," said a spokesman for BA.....

[gordonroxburgh]

The topic resurfaced today in the UK as yesterday (8/4) rumours in the European press suggested that AF were to announce 2007 as the date they would stop.

BA gave the same answer that they gave in feb...Concorde future was in the process of being decided but no decision had been made.

The airline normally plans ahead 4-5 years in terms of fleet usage so this would put BA in the same time frame of 2007. Yes other issues, such as very low loads could bring this forward, But BA unlike AF have had excellent loads. AF have been hit by a boycott of some US pax due to their stance on the war in Iraq.

What will now not happen is the re-life 2 project that would see the aircraft flying till 2015. They would, need good loads on the BA001/2/3 and 4 to pay for it, but we only have half these services due to the decline post 9/11. Nobody in the UK has every talked about not flying on the aircraft due to any safety issues, it simply economic downturn

[er82]

I could be wrong, but I'm sure that there used to be little 'pleasure trips' on Concorde, for those unable to purchase a ticket to cross the Atlantic.......
Let's hope that if they do decide to get rid of her, they bring the 'pleaure trips' back for a while, so that everyone who has a dream of flying on her may get their chance before she goes.....

[Konkordski]

Interesting that when the speculation is on Proon it's a "thread" but when it's in the paper it's "hype" :D

[Max Angle]

this would put BA in the same time frame of 2007 I really hope I am wrong but if Concorde is still flying in half that length of time I'll eat my hat. (I will have to find it first, havn't worn it for years!)

[Crepello]

Latest 'flash' on the BBC News website:

"BA expected to confirm it is withdrawing Concorde from service by Autumn. More soon."

:( :( :(

[ScotFlyer]

Here's (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2934257.stm) the story from BBC Online :(

[Goforfun]

RIP Concorde...................... simply the best.


From the BBC

Concorde to retire by end 2003



British Airways will confirm on Thursday that it is retiring its supersonic Concorde service, the BBC has learned.

Passenger numbers have never recovered since the crash near Paris in 2000 and the aircraft no longer makes a profit.

Concorde is expected to cease flying in the autumn, probably when BA's summer timetable ends on the last weekend of October, BBC transport correspondent Simon Montague said.

Air France has made no comment on whether it is close to pulling its Concorde service, after reports it would retire the service by 2007.

Concorde has been blighted by a rash of problems.

Three years ago 113 people were killed in the Paris crash.

Engine failure

At the end of last year it also emerged engine failure forced one New York-bound plane to turn back to London and another flight was forced to cut its speed when cracks appeared in a window.

Currently, BA's Concordes are certified to fly until 2009.

Both Air France and BA Concorde services have been badly affected in recent months by the American economic downturn and the Iraqi conflict.

The plane, born out a joint Anglo-French project, and developed by engineers at Filton, near Bristol, operates daily out of London Heathrow and Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport to North America.

It cruises at around 1350 mph at an altitude of up to 60,000ft (11 miles) meaning a crossing from Europe to New York takes less than three and a half hours.

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority both say Concorde remains safe to fly.

The Paris crash was blamed on debris on the runway which punctured a tyre.

[donder10]

Official according to who?The Daily Mail?

[19F]

Nothing at this time at British Airways Online Press Office. But, who knows, by the time YOU go to the link http://www.britishairways.com/press/

Update - it's official - http://www.britishairways.com/cgi-bin/press/view_article.pl?year=2003&month=04&day=10&index=1&reference=&title=Concorde%20-%20The%20end%20of%20an%20era&mail=contact&image=concorde-take-offfronton-highres.gif&position=top_centre&caption=

And Air France too - http://double6.airfrance.fr/double6/Y1/infogles.nsf/(LookupPublishedWeb)/fr-NLPRL-030410ccr?OpenDocument

Lord Marshall adds his two penn'orth (April 29th):
http://www.britishairways.com/cgi-bin/press/view_article.pl?year=2003&month=04&day=29&index=0&reference=045/LDV/03&title=Statement%20issued%20by%20Lord%20Marshall%20in%20respo nse%20to%20Sir%20Richard%20Branson's%20Concorde%20letter&mail=contact&image=none&position=none&caption=

[NineEighteen]

:|

[Konkordski]

Sounds grim. The Beeb doesn't normally stick its neck out to this extent on such a sensitive subject unless it's found a cast-iron source on the inside.


Anyway, blasted infernal machine has had a good innings, time it stopped hogging the limelight.

[Matt Braddock]

If this is true, and I fear that it is, what will become of the greatest aircraft in the world?

I hope that aviators throughout the world will rally round to ensure that at least one or two are kept flying, possibly in the hands of a trust.

Danny, I am sure PPRuNe is the perfect organisation to take the lead in a rescue campaign.


Braddock

[willbav8r]

Could this be a cunning plan to entice punters?

Hope so.

Even worse if the Frogs keep their birds (and noses) in the air.

Is AF subsidised by the (ahem) "gov't"?

[spongebob_bm]

was checking the loads to see if the misses and I could make this once in a life time trip. By mistake I clicked on the price!
Return LHR-JFK $26,000 for two, WOW!
In this depressed market and the ongoing problems with the bird I think.................. Well anyway, I still want the opportunity to fly on one:)

[PaperTiger]

Even worse if the Frogs keep their birds (and noses) in the air.

AF has previously announced theirs would retire in 2007. That was before the downturn though I think.

[dicksynormous]

Good.........noisy ******

[411A]

It todays cost-sensitive company environment, Concorde simply cannot pay its way.
To the scrap heap, just like the Trident.
Uneconomical....goodbye.

[Rollingthunder]

No romance for those things of beauty that fly 411A ?

Perhaps the Shuttleworth collection would buy one for a pound.

If not, I'll start building a plinth.

Sad day and I thought I'd had my fill of bad news.

[willbav8r]

S'pose the RAF could convert to the bomber role? Tanker?
T Blair's transport? Ryanair taxiing demonstrators? Bill Gates could set up a charter op from Meigs?

Well I guess they aren't gone just yet..... I did enjoy seeing her inbound to LHR from my living room window - and on a sunny day with the windows open and noise pouring in :)

Yummy noise. Shame.

[NW1]

Such bold assertions from one who does not even have the data to do the sums. Thankfully you're not the one whose opinion counts.

Even so, 34 years after she first flew, the Concorde can still do what no other aircraft could or can - at M2.0 the Olympus 593-610 is the most efficient internal combustion engine yet to fly and on top of that she is flying after most other civil airliners designed in the 50s and 60s have long since been turned into ashtrays. And by airframe use markers she is still younger than the 777.

She was right first time, did exactly what the designers asked for (more than anyone has ever asked of a civil transport before or since) and still does. She can and does still cut a profit, fortunately her continued existance is not in the hands of the green-eyes.

The fat lady has not sung yet (rumours of her demise are, as yet, exaggerated), but even if she were "on in 10" the Concorde has already proved herself with a flight envelope and life cycle other types have not and will not come close to. A magnificent achievment by any standard, and still going strong.

I cannot begin to understand the source of your cynical, almost gleeful anticipation at the unproven concept of the retirement of such a high achievment in aviation.

Long may the Concorde continue to lead the way - and it can and still does. But it will be the airline executives who must decide - not the stone chuckers from the pits - but whenever that decision may be (all good things must come to an end) you will be unable to erase over 3 decades of unparalleled (by more than a factor of 2) achievement.

[411A]

NW1,

Hmmm, getting all misty-eyed are we?
Dead as a doornail, would be more appropriate.

Concorde...around forever? The B707 (older design) is still in service, and will remain so for a lot longer than Concorde.
Concorde....phooey!:yuk:

[NW1]

...rather misty eyed than green eyed.

Sorry pal, but regarding SST - Concorde did it and is still doing it over 30 years later, and you cannot take that away.

("Concorde around forever?" - um, quoting whom here? If you need to make up comments to argue against, you really are rambling........)

PS: The 707 was a fine, no - magnificent aeroplane. But what is it achieving today that any other jet has not equalled or exceeded since? That is the achievment of Concorde.... it is without equal)

[ORAC]

The Times - "BA admits Concorde will fly for last time this year."

CONCORDE will make its last flight at the end of October, ending 30 years of supersonic travel, British Airways will announce this morning.

Air France, the only other operator of Concorde, is expected to make a similar announcement. Both airlines have had a catastrophic drop in Concorde bookings, with many flights less than half full.

British Airways is planning to offer substantial discounts on Concorde flights in the remaining six months of its working life so that as many people as possible can fulfil an ambition to fly on Britain’s most recognisable aircraft.

British Airways has rejected calls to keep one or two Concordes in full working order in order to perform occasional flights at air shows. The airline will say that such costs would be prohibitive. BA employs 160 Concorde engineers, who will be moved to work on other planes in the airline’s fleet.

BA will give its seven Concordes to museums in Britain and America. The Smithsonian museum in Washington has already requested one. Boeing has also inquired about displaying another at its museum in Seattle. One will probably go on display at Heathrow and the rest at British museums...........

[reynoldsno1]

Britain’s most recognisable aircraft.

Achtung, Spitfeuer......

[Buster Hyman]

What a fitting end for a fine aircraft. Placed in American museums to show them what they couldn't achieve, a working SST.

NW1, I think 411A is just reminding us of the attitudes of the American aircraft industry at the time of Concordes launch!! ;)

Come on BA, how's about one more round the world trip as her final farewell??:(

[Anti Skid On]

It'll be a very sad day when they stop flying, and it'll make the news all over the world.

Perhaps NASA will want to use them instead of the Russian clones they use!

[B767300ER]

I will dearly miss that sleek aircraft that looks like a prehistoric bird taking flight.

The Trident was a revolutionary aircraft design as well, and never was given it's due. A pioneer in it's own right, for sure.

I'll miss those HF calls by "Speedbird" at FL590 over the north Atlantic. One former Concorde Captain told me of crew wagers to see who could slow the aircraft the latest, and get the sonic boom closest to shore without touching it!

[BEagle]

411A - do I detect the 'Not invented here' syndrome......


Unfortunately it was the price-rigging by non-Concorde airlines which brought about the 'supersonic supplement' making the aircraft's economic appeal acceptable to only a small select group of customers. If only seats had been sold at 'normal' prices, things might have been very different.

Not that I have much time for her (I don't mean Concorde), but if Maggie T was still driving at No 10, I wonder whether the infamous handbag would have been wielded in Rod's direction.....

It is indeed devastating to hear that the best aeroplane in the world will stop flying if things go as planned. BA will lose its Unique Selling Point and will become just another airline...

"Dear Sir Richard-of-the-beard. Fleet of SSTs and personnel for sale. No reasonable offer refused. Love, Uncle Rod"



Just hope that one of my premium bonds comes up before October!


PS - Still nothing on the BA Press Office site at time of typing - but the 'contact us' option allows e-mails to be sent to BA; I hope that people will make their comments known.

[angels]

Sadly, it's official now. BA have told the Stock Exchange it's retiring the fleet at the end of October. The decision will cost BA 84 million pounds in write-offs.

Air France are doing the same, so from October 31, 2003, that'll be it.

How sad.:(

[BEagle]

It might cost BA £84M in write-offs, but the premature retirement of Concorde and consequent loss of their uniqueness will cost BA very considerably more intangibly.

When Concorde lands for the last time and BA becomes another Boeing Airline, the glory days of BA will have ended for ever. For without Concorde, they are as naught. Although not noted for schadenfreude, Sir Richard probably cannot believe his luck this morning.....

[rumflier]

Statement this morning...

Chief executive Rod Eddington said: "Concorde has served us well and we are extremely proud to have flown this marvellous and unique aircraft for the past 27 years.
"This is the end of a fantastic era in world aviation, but bringing forward Concorde's retirement is a prudent business decision at a time when we are having to make difficult decisions right across the airline.''

[Hilico]

I've seen TV footage of Sir Richard standing by one of the Concordes and wistfully saying it was the one thing about British Airways that he liked. No schadenfreude there I think.

[BEagle]

Quite so, Hilico. He at least knows something good when he sees it!

In case my comments are misunderstood, I didn't mean that Sir Richard would be glad to see Concorde retired per se. I merely meant that he will probably be noting with satisfaction an increase in passenger numbers on his airline, now that BA will merely be just another Boeing Airline having lost its uniqueness.

[411A]

BEagle,

BA (BEA) lost its Unique Selling Point when the Trident was retired, for the ground grabber provided CATIII service well before others.

OTOH, some would argue that BA (nee BOAC) lost its 'USP' when the Stratocruiser went away, that would be a stretch...;)

[Desk-pilot]

A desperately sad day for aviation and those of us who love beautiful aeroplanes. I have always enjoyed her soaring over my head every morning - the only real queen of the skies.

I wish Sir weird beard was in better financial shape - he could have operated them for another few years.

Desk-pilot

[BRISTOLRE]

Extremely sad news.
There have been rumblings about premature retirement for some time now, I didnt think it would be as soon as this.

I hope there will be a good send off and I hope they go to good homes for preservation.

Radio broadcasts also stating that end of October 2003 will be the retirement.

A sign of the times economic and political as well as market forces.
She will be sadly missed by many.

[Desk-pilot]

A desperately sad day for aviation and those of us who love beautiful aeroplanes. I have always enjoyed her soaring over my head every morning - the only real queen of the skies.

I wish Sir weird beard was in better financial shape - he could have operated them for another few years.

Desk-pilot

[squeaker]

Surely the bearded one will try to buy a couple? He couldn't resist the free publicity!

[Flying Lawyer]

What sad news.
The BBC story is just typical of the way the British media has been banging nails in Concorde's coffin ever since the crash.
Is it any wonder that passenger numbers never recovered? Instead of boosting the positive aspects of this wonderful British achievement, and wanting it to be successful again, the British press has blown every 'incident' out of all proportion and, each time, listed every other previous 'incident' which it claimed cast doubt upon Concorde's safety. Every Concorde story for the past few years has repeated the crash details, the number killed etc. The British press/media 'Concorde is a deathtrap' campaign has been unrelenting and, sadly, successful.
Aren't we a strange race? If it's British, we knock it. :(

[beamer]

Used to know a Concorde Captain - ace chap but he could never quite explain why flight crew got off in the States after a three and a half hour sector instead of simply flying the return trip...

[DX Wombat]

NW1 ignore him and his petty, narrow minded, jealous attitude. His opinion is not worth bothering yourself about. Those who really appreciate Concorde know her true value. It's just a shame most of us can't afford to fly in her. A very sad day indeed and what will now be an unfulfilled ambition for me :{ (unless I win the lottery this weekend.)

[Jhieminga]

I was just thinking the other day that I would make a serious attempt at having a flight on Concorde one day, but that was based on her flying on to 2006 or so. Now I'll have to let that plan go as there's no way I'll get hold of the cash needed before October!

Sad to see her go, for six months when I worked in TBA it was great so see her standing outside the window each morning. Hope they find a few fitting places for her. :(

[twistedenginestarter]

I think Concorde was a great achievement and a very good aircraft but 411A is really right. The World has moved on. I would have liked them to mothball it in case everything picks up again but it looks like the maintenance costs spell curtains.

[Sir Kitt Braker]

More than anything I feel sorry for the crews. They may have to learn to count to 2 occasionally (as in 2 sectors in one day!)

[M.Mouse]

I too think it is a magnificent aeroplane but most of these posts are allowing hearts to rule heads.

It is a simple fact that people are not flying on it because the economic downturn worldwide has led to minimal numbers flying business class, first class or Concorde.

It is costing BA dearly to fly the flagship and there comes a point when it has to go.

It is an end of an era and very sad but it is good to see it being retired gracefully rather than never flying again after the tragic accident.

As an aside do you think if we ignored 411A's assinine comments he would go away?

[newswatcher]

From the BA site:

Supersonic Celebration

Celebrate Concorde with British Airways by taking advantage of one of these 'Once in a Lifetime' offers between London and New York.

1000 seats at these special fares will go on sale in the UK from 10 April for just one week, for travel until 6 September.

Price Details

£3999 Concorde both ways
£3499 one-way Concorde and one-way FIRST
£2999 one-way Concorde and one-way Club World
£2199 one-way Concorde and one-way World Traveller Plus
£1999 one-way Concorde and one-way World Traveller

Terms and Conditions

This offer is available for sale from 10 to 17 April 2003 with outbound travel between 10 April and 6 September 2003.
Minimum stay must include one Saturday night. Maximum stay is 30 days. No changes and no refunds can be made. This offer can be combined with connections from other UK airports.

To book this offer in the UK call 0845 77 333 77. For non UK residents please contact your local British Airways office.

Business Savers are also available, contact your local British Airways office.

[moggie]

Concorde was built by Airbus, apparently.................

http://www.britishairways.com/press/

Click "Concorde - end of an era"

And so from October, the web site will be plastered with pictures of B777 and A320 or other such grey porridge.

Sad news indeed.

[Dr Illitout]

Typical B.A. though, spend a fortune on re-vamping them and then ground them!!. I never worked on the "poisoned dart" myself but it will be a sad day when the windows in Bedfont are rattled for the last time!!!.
Rgds Dr.I.:(

[Snoop]

One of the reasons I wanted to become a commercial pilot. I will miss the roar over my house at 1915 (ish!)

One of the most beautiful birds to have ever flown. Wish I could have had the pleasure.

:* :( :* :( :*

[Seloco]

Just a couple of thoughts on this sadly inevitable news:

Frank Sinatra had many "retirements"; maybe things might change before October?

I wonder if there is space on the LHR entrance roundabout for a full-size Concorde in place of the plastic model?

[J-Class]

Concorde is dying because of falling demand, but there is more to this falling demand than just the current economic condition; if BA thought business would rebound next year they would not want to take a GBP 80m charge today to get rid of Concorde.

No, one of the principal reasons why demand for Concorde has become so low is because of the vast multitude of alternative flights now available between London and New York. Their number dwarfs the options available to business people when Concorde entered service 27 years ago.

Next Monday, there are 23 - yes, 23! - scheduled non-stop services, excluding Concorde, between LHR and JFK, each operated by a large widebody - a 747, 777 or A340 derivative. There are a futher 10 flights operating between either LHR or LGW to EWR.

With this plethora of flights, business people have enormous flexibility in their travel arrangments. Thus Mr. Businessman can opt to leave Heathrow early, at 7.55am and arrive at JFK at 10.20am. Or he can travel late, leaving Heathrow at 8.05pm and arriving at JFK at 10.50pm. Either possibility allows Mr. Businessman a respectable day's business activity in London or New York, plus the trip itself - particularly if, as is now possible, he can access his emails on the plane and make telephone calls if necessary.

On the return from New York, the compressed day due to the time difference meant that Concorde was never that helpful to Mr. Businessman: the best it could do was get him back in time for a dinner engagement in London by landing around 6pm, while the subsonic flight returned him four hours later at 9pm. This was a marginal benefit at the best of times.

So, for for the businessman looking to travel to New York, the only legitimate reason to travel Concorde in recent years has been because of critical business emergency. In the days of faxes, videoconferences and email, these types of business emergency are fewer in number than they used to be. Other than Mr Businessman, the rest of Concorde's clientele were the mega-rich. Post the bust, some of these individuals are less rich than they used to be. Other titans have concerns - which most of us here will say are illegitimate - about the safety of travelling in such an elderly aircraft.

Correspondents who say that the world has moved on have got it right. Ridding the world of supersonic passenger flight appears a rare example of technology moving backwards, and I will miss the presence in our skies of the most beautiful passenger plane ever built enormously.

[amanoffewwords]

1. Moggie,

which bit of Airbus’ predecessors Aerospatiale and British Aircraft Corporation created Concorde some 40 years ago can't you grasp?

2. To the people who accused journalists of scaremongering yesterday - I think an apology is in order. They sometimes do get the insider information before you do you know.. In fact, I would suspect the early release of the decision was orchestrated by BA and AF to soften the blow.

3. re the retirement itself: as far as I'm concerned it was nice while it lasted, but good ridance - the rest us will enjoy less pollution and a quieter environment :ok: . And Jack Straw et al will just have to go off and buy a rocket instead.

[Jonty]

A very sad day, hopefully someone will buy them and keep them flying.

October is along way away and this is aviation!!!

[starone]

It must have done something right, i never read such howlings when BA announced that it was becoming all jet and getting rid of the jetstream31/41...why? It is sad but cash is king!!!!
I think that they are planning some regional departures before she leaves for the last time, she won't go out with a whimper,thats for sure!!!
I don't think sir dickie of the trickie is in a position to take them over, but maybe everyone's darling, Michael O' Leary could? What do you think, SSC DUB/STN, they might even bring forward their 732 retirement ex dublin and replace them with ssc. It would be interesting to see the ba logo literally scratched out and replaced by the harp, that would be a pr coup!!!

[steamchicken]

A sad, sad day....the nearest thing to a spacecraft in civil aviation is to go. How dull.

[atco-matic]

Does anybody know if it's going to be on hotline????

[Jump Complete]

BBC teletext yesturday included the lines "suffered a string of tragidies and incidents.."
A string of tragidies? It had one, the others were incidents which as far as I know were no more than cases of sections of the rudder (was it just parts of the skin?) coming off on a few occasions.
expect better from the BBC.:*
Be a sad day when it goes. I think also it is the only thing that gives BA its claim to heading all the others...

[Random UAS Stude]

1)Mmm, I saw that headline too.

Maybe we should persuade the Beeb to get an aviation correspondent (or do they have one?)...

Might get rid of some of the c**p they come out with.

2) Rollingthunder,

Maybe BA should GIVE one to the Shuttleworth Collection, cos' then they can copy D**ford for a change...

Happy Landings - They'll be better than mine

(Anybody fancy giving me a few grand so I can have a whizz over the pond?)

:O

[admiral ackbar]

What a sad, sad day.

Well I guess I know what to do with my 125,000 QF points!

I have to fly on that beautiful machine before she goes away forever.

[Dewdrop]

Do you think BA would sell her if anyone seriously wanted to buy ?

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

NW1,

What are the chances of a PPRuNE charter flight before shed goes :D I would certainly see how far the piggy bank would stretch for a chance to go supersonic in the old girl :)

As a lad, from the garden I could hear the sound of the Olympuses (Olympii ??) being run up on the flying test-beds at Filton -- and every now and agin see her come over the house on a wide circuit.... Sigh, nostalgia, it just isn't what it used to be... :(

[Memetic]

Anyone got £4k they can lend me? ;-)

[PPRuNeUser0171]

Do you think BA would sell her if anyone seriously wanted to buy ?

Of course! They are a business.

And I'm sure they would be able to cash in on selling thier supersonic flying and engineering expertise to a prospective buyer.

What I suspect will happen is that most of the Concorde fleet will become spare parts :(

Hopefully an air musuem like Duxford will come to the rescue and keep one or two flying.

On another thought, What will happen to the crews and especially the flight engineers? As I understand it there is not much call for FE's in BA these days.....

Gary.

[Sir Kitt Braker]

If they could taxi supersonically, Ryanair would buy them....

[Tinstaafl]

The lunchtime news just reported that Concorde is to be retired this autumn. The report included an interview with Eddington saying that it's no longer economical.

[PPRuNeUser0171]

it's no longer economical

Was it ever?!

Gary.

[Random UAS Stude]

Don't think anyone could afford to fly them.

Museums - Duxford and FAA museums have them already - I suppose it depends on runways available or sponsorship the get them dismantled and transported on where else they could go.
Wouldn't be suprised if one ends up at new museum type thing at Manchester (the one that one of the RJX prototypes went to a few months ago).

And I expect that one (or more, or even more) will end up in the US (NASM, and Seattle Museum...):O

[Goldstone]

Typical BA muddled thinking and money-wasting.

How many millions did it cost to get them back in the air after the Paris crash???

If BA senior management had done just a small amount of research they would have realised at the time that the market for premium air travel was shrinking rapidly and that it would have been more cost effective to keep them grounded ....

[groundbum]

given that pacific routes from the US West Coast are longer (more time saved for businessmen) than trans-atlantic, and that the routes are by and large over water (sonic boom), I wonder if Concorde wouldn't fit rather nicely on the other pond??

S

[admiral ackbar]

I don`t think the old girl has the legs for LAX-NRT, since Concorde has a range of 4500 miles IIRC, LAX-NRT is 5400+.

I guess with a fuel stop in HNL, it could do it. ;) Wonder how long it would take total.

[timzsta]

Sad news in difficult times. A truly beautiful and aeroplane and a triumph of engineering that will never be surpassed.

I used to love watch Concorde speed gracefully down the Bristol channel on my radar screen at Yeovilton when I was a Freddie, or her French counterpart down the channel when at sea. Radar and auto track system use to track it perfectly - loads of doppler!

Wonder if some sort of heritage trust or something to maybe keep one aircraft flying doing a once a week out of EGLL and once a week out of LFPG or something. Dreams dreams dreams

Speedbird 1, cleared to aeroplane heaven, RIP.

[Anti-ice]

Really, pretty sad news :ugh:

It makes me fill with pride to have seen her at the forefront of UK aviation , and for so long.

Truly innovative, Truly beautiful , Truly way ahead of her time.

True BA has various financial considerations, and she is not resistant to falling under this umbrella.

But, it is testament to them that She flew for them for such a long time , and carried the Flag for the UK in such a remarkable and inimitable way.

I hope that very careful consideration is given to her preservation and historical significance

[Gaza]

I was fortunate to fly in her to JFK for New Year 2001. Ever since I was a kid I had longed to do it and I'm glad I had the opportunity. She's not that comfy compared to Club World or First but ...............she's CONCORDE!:sad: :sad: :sad: :sad:

For all those asking if BA would sell I'm pretty certain that they have already said that they would not as all are destined for Museums.

[Evanelpus]

IMHO, the two greatest aircraft ever to grace the skies were the Vulcan and Concorde. Strangely enough both RR Olympus powered.

As for BA selling any to Sir RB, I think not. I reckon Rod Eddington would rather convert them into Spam cans than give his biggest rival a supersonic advantage. Yes, BA are a business, but can anyone EVER see this happening......naw!!!!!

[Jonty]

Bollox to museums, give them to some one who will keep the things flying. Lets see them at airshows doing what they do best: FLYING, not stuck in some shed gathering dust!!!

[QuackDriver]

Just tried to book two seats and they have all gone. I had always promised myself to fly supersonic Wahhhhh!:(

Guess I'll just have to go fly at Thunder City instead .... hmm hands on Lightning time should look good in the ol' log book. Guess I can still dream.


Quack

[HOVIS]

NW1.
"Internal combustion engine"??

I always thought it was a gas turbine. Or am I being a touch pedantic?

R.I.P. Bent Nail.:(

[corsaman]

The BA3 to JFK on 12/05/95 with my sister and Dad was quite simply one of the most memorable journeys I've ever made
- courtesy of staff travel, he flew it again, twice, to BGI, and it just got better and better. I'd better dig out the souvenir fountain pen and preserve it! Might be worth something..........!;)

[rich49]

For those who run concorde down, like 411A, I could quite easily take everything you said about concorde and throw it back at you about your space shuttle. But I'm not going to because they are both great achivements, anyway without concorde you car wouldn't have ABS.

[obiukwu]

This has just been released by Sir Branson's office.

“Since the British Airways’ announcement this morning we have been flooded with calls from the public, including BA staff, asking us to see if we can keep Concorde flying.

“When the Conservative government gave British Airways Concorde for £1 they said that if another British company ever wanted to operate it they could. As a result of the public’s response today I will be asking British Airways to provide me with the full operating figures.”

“If having examined the figures Virgin Atlantic, with its lower cost base, believes it can make a success of it we will be asking British Airways to give us the planes for the same price that they were given them for (£1) together with the slots and other facilities that they use.

“This might come to nothing but I believe that every effort should be made to keep Concorde flying as it is such an important symbol of British innovation.”

[NineEighteen]

I am deeply saddened by the news. She has a special place in my heart and nobody can deny the fact that she was, has been and remains an amazing aircraft.

I just tried to book myself an offer ticket but sadly they're sold out so I guess I'll have to pin my hopes on a swift lottery win or a miracle reprieve.

I feel bereaved...:(

[Crepello]

9/18, that's exactly the word I had in mind. Seems excessive for a machine but... this gal was pretty special, the tears weren't far away. :( :( :(

Those who scored promotional tickets should count their blessings! I awoke to the news and was on the phone before my first coffee. Was told the first available cheap(er) seat was on 7 September, i.e. after the offer had ended, but never mind...

I'll turn 30 before she retires, am tempted to sell a lung and celebrate the big day in style. Any philanthropic millionaires reading? ;)

[T_richard]

Hey wait a minute .......... Rich 49 please don't wrap the other 290 million people her in the same cloth as 411A. YOu do not have to be British to admire the technology and dream of flying on the Concorde. There was a comment about pilots only flying one way before a crew change. NOW remember this is not my business, but I wonder if there aresome economies that might be obtained which would allow Virgin or someone else to keep the bird up in the air, The technology seems a little too new for a museum.

I always thought I'd get to fly on her one day, dammmmmmmm

[747-436]

Will be sad to see it go. I would be very surprised if Branson got hold of it. I'm sure BA will do everything they can to avoid one flying in Virgin colours. That would be a humiliation for BA. Is there anything to stop him buying AF models??

Hope that they perform a few flypasts etc before it goes. A concorde formation over London would be good.

[WHBM]

Pleased to say I got one of the seats, one way, in July. Would have been upset to have missed this final chance. Looking forward to riding in what those who get the chance say is such an enjoyable plane to handle.

Sorry to see the old girl go.

[gateradial]

A coincidence that the names of the two types representing the apogee of their respective eras begin with the same syllable? Weird.

[gordonroxburgh]

I wonder If Branson was to offer up £7 for the fleet would BA accept it?

Not having to pay £84Million in write-off cost and other to make certain staff redundant may well be quite tempting in the current climate

I wonder if VS marketing could make it work where BA marketing failed. Filling the a/c for £2K a seat may be better than half full for 3.5K a seat.

[doubledolphins]

Seems to me that if HMG effectivly gave the airframes to BA, that if they no longer have any need for them they should give them back. HMG would then be able to give them to any one else that wants them. Virgin for trans Atlantic, Air 2000 for supersonic charters and joy rides (company news paper 1 April 2002) or, heaven forbid, the RAF, so Blair can go to see his mate and be back in time for tea. I do also remember an artical years ago suggesting that it would make a good bomber. So why not make it an MPA? It's got four engines and its newer than the Comet!
To be serious though, it would be a crying shame to think that the only craft left with four Olympus engines by the end of the year will be aircraft carriers.

[Gunship]

... to one day fly in the Concorde ....

..... and it will now just remain a dream .....

:{ http://www.jetphotos.net/images/f/f-btsd_concorde.jpg.72243.thumb :{


Bye - Bye my dream ........ :{

[RatherBeFlying]

While I would love to see at least one Concorde kept in flying condition, I seriously doubt any museum would have the resources to properly monitor the airframe.

Perhaps if the BA and AF engineers are handsomely enough packaged, they might be recruited to look after it for a few more years -- provided of course that the CAA goes along (a big maybe).

And who's going to put up the hangar, spares storage and engineering space?

[jet_breeze]

i'll have one should be nice. ;)

[jmc757]

I today lost a dream like so many others :( I'll miss her. I think the best chance Branson has got of getting one is a midnite trip to duxford with some wire cutters and a tug!!! :O
Air2000!!! I'm flying with them to TFS in July.... now thats a thought :p hehehehe
Oh well... good bye concorde.... I bet all the £1999 seats have gone already and I couldnt afford them anyway. for £1000 i could, no chance though:( wish BA would bring back some regional pleasure flights before she goes. I'd rather fly in her subsonic than not at all.......

[Out Of Trim]

I'm absolutely gutted!

I always had the dream that one day I could afford to fly in her..

but, alas I now know I never will.. I feel sick; that in reality terrorists have taken this great aircraft away from us.

If 9/11 had not occurred then I am sure this would not be happening so soon.

Oh and 411 why don't you go play on a highway nearby, you are obviously of the not invented here crap US brigade - To$$er!

:( :mad: :rolleyes: :confused: :eek: :} :* := :yuk:

Oh yes and BA - Now no reason to ever fly you again you Traitors..

Yes; that's right - no longer the flagship national airline you once were..

But, If Virgin Atlantic bought them - I would only fly with you to the USA..

Richard Branson - You know it makes sense!!:cool: :D :cool:

[Rockhound]

Sad news indeed. The only airliner instantly recognizable, in the air or on the ground - and drop-dead gorgeous to boot! And the only airliner to have a name that doesn't need to be preceded by an article.
It brings back memories of a bygone age...
02 May 1977. Check-in at LHR for BA 579 Concorde service to Washington Dulles. My one-way ticket reads UKL 433.50 - seems awfully pricey in comparison to the $240 Ottawa-London RT ticket on a Laker charter which got me to London but what the hell - clearly worth every penny as soon as you catch sight of that bird!
Start in on the Dom Perignon '69 to wash down the smoked salmon canapes in the Concorde departure lounge prior to boarding.
On board, as I setlle in Seat 2B, I notice the door to the flight deck is open. It stays open for the rest of the flight ("We rather think it's good PR, sir"). Capt Norman Todd himself is in command.
Craning my neck just a little, I get a pretty fair view of the takeoff through the windshield.
On the climb-out, a heart-stopping moment as a black shape appears in the windshield. Oh, my Gawd, we're going to collide!!!! Then I realize it's the nose and visor rising into view.
Mach 1 is registered on the screen and I, and a few other pax applaud, but most seem unfazed (seen it all before?).
Eventually, "M2.00" appears (I still have a photo as proof). The small windows are warm to the touch, the sky outside dark blue, the clouds far, far below.
After lunch (Iranian caviar, breast of duckling suedoise, salad of palm hearts from the Seychelles... more Dom P '69), I stand at the cockpit door for a while, chatting with an off-duty F/E in the jump seat. The pilots clearly are busy flying the plane and doing paperwork. Capt Todd turns his head and gives me a smile, then gets back to the job. Note to Beamer and others earlier in this thread: those Concorde crews have their hands full OPERATING the aircraft, not just sitting back, monitoring progress in a fancy glass cockpit. One trans-Atlantic sector and they've earned their rest.
Approaching America, the eastern seaboard is spread out before you, from Cape Cod practically to Newfoundland - like looking at an atlas, for God's sake.
Then the moment you wish you could put off for just a little while longer, just to prolong the thrill of a lifetime: the approach and landing, a/c nose way up.
Finally, the mother of all anti-climaxes, the limo ride into downtown Washington.Back to earth with a thump.
But that flight - the memories never leave you.
Rockhound

[reverserunlocked]

I remember once sitting down the back of the 'parking express' bus on the way to LHR's T4 some months after the old girl was grounded.

As we rounded the back of the BA maintenance sheds, there were 3 Concs parked in a row, obviously powered down, with all the ailerons and rudders flapping about.

The bus was quite full, but as we drove past those three sleek and sexy jets the chatter died down momentarily as nearly everyone swung round to have a peek. I heard more than one person whisper 'look at those'....

It's a magical aircraft, and one that will always be loved and bring out crowds to see it.

If Beardo does get his hands on a few, given his marketing expertise I wouldn't be surprised if he could just pull it off. Here's hoping hey?

[Jetdriver]

I had the great good fortune to fly Concorde to New york many years ago when my wife and I were married. This last year thanks to said wifes staff travel priviliges I was able to take one of my sons (12) on 3 Concorde flights to or from New York.

Concorde isn't like other forms of air travel. It is like a Rolls Royce motor car or a saville row tailored suit. It is an expression of luxurious living, oppulent style and unique achievement. It is an experience that one young man will savour all his life. The luxury and quiet of the lounges at LHR and JFK. The feeling of being someone special whilst ushered to the check in desks. The onboard cuisine and fine wines. The excitement of a Concorde take off. watching the sun rise rise in the west. Seeing the indigo sky at 61,000 ft. Crews who take great pride in their charge. Crossing the Atlantic in 3.5 hours instead of 7 hours. The whole experience was a cause of well being and something just right in the world.

Those that rubbish the Concorde as uneconomic or who relish in its demise really do miss the point ! Unfortunetaly unless they experienced Concorde for themselves it is probably impossible to persude them otherwise. For 3.5 hours and the time on the ground the Concorde experience made everyone involved feel truly that cut above the rest of the world. It was expensive but in fact it was priceless.

I am very sad that I will not be able to share this experience with my younger children. I am sad that not everybody will get to experience this airplane just once in their lives. To all the crews who participated in this adventure I offer my thanks and appreciation for your involvement in something my wife, my son and I shall never forget.

[Synthetic]

I also would like to express my regrets at the passing of such an awsome machine:( :( :(

I too was lucky enough to do LHR-JFK in 92:cool: :D :D

411 - Please. If you are ever wounded, you know where to get more salt than you know what to do with.

It also rankles slightly the thought of a Concorde ending up in an American museum as they rendered it's birth still.

Come on Sir Richard - always did like you!



Edited because after a twelve hour shift I was rather unnecessary

[BEagle]

It really would be truly excellent if Sir Richard could operate Concorde. The national flag carrier operating this aviation icon when british airways have seemingly forgotten how to market the mystique of the best aeroplane there is.

Some of the posts on this thread should have been used by ba's markeing luvvies. I particularly liked 'Concorde - not expensive but priceless'!

Let's hope we see Sir Richard making a firm financial offer soon - and no Concorde should ever be given to an American museum!

[pilotwolf]

Perhaps we should start a petition/list of support and send it Sir Richard...

Or go to him with a deal where PPRuNer's could buy shares in on of the a/c....

:D

[gordonroxburgh]

After yesterdays announcement BA put on sale 1000 Concorde seats at around £2K each (other options allowed for return upgrades up to first etc..)

These 1000 tickets were sold out in a couple of hours, so £2m of revenue for the airline....not bad!

If maybe they were to market Concorde better and have a new fare structure, eg so many seat on each flight at £1K, so many at 2K and then for people, eg VIP and execs wanted a last minutle flight paying full wack, maybe they could fill it every day and turn the thing around.

It has been sold now to the wrong marketplace with the decline in Premium class pax.

[Discorde]

So, farewell then, Concorde
‘Arrive before you depart’
That was your slogan
If only you could depart in 2003
And arrive thirty years earlier
Then you could start
All over again

E J Thrubbshaw (17½)

[brookd]

In 20 years time am I really going to be sitting with a grandchild on my knee explaing how we USED to be able to fly across the pond faster than sound on the edge of space, but the bean counters decided to drop all that and go back to a big fat slow bus.

[Simon W]

SIR Richard Branson said last night he was considering buying British Airways’ Concorde fleet following the airline’s decision to scrap the supersonic aircraft after 27 years.

The Virgin Atlantic chairman said he had been flooded with calls from people wanting him to try to keep the jet flying.

However, Sir Richard said he would be asking BA for the operational figures and, if Virgin could make a success of Concorde, it would seek to buy the fleet for £1 - the price the airline paid the then Conservative government.

The entrepreneur, who is reported to have previously tried to buy several Air France Concordes, said: "Having examined the figures, Virgin Atlantic, with its lower cost base, believes it can make a success of it.

"We will be asking British Airways to give us the planes for the same price that they were given them for - £1.

"This might come to nothing, but I believe that every effort should be made to keep Concorde flying, as it is such an important symbol of British innovation."

Earlier, aviation experts mourned BA’s decision, claiming Concorde had "lived and died" while still 20 years ahead of its time.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/transport/story.jsp?story=396031

[huw stunn]

Great idea Gordonroxborough - your would probably fill the plane BUT would it cover the costs of the operation ? The serviceability of the old girl seems to require 1 or 2 standby aircraft to maintain a once daily JFK. How can that ever cover its costs ?

I think Beardie is getting some cheap promotion but is not serious about ever operating the aircraft.

[mainfrog2]

Why doesn't Sir Richard buy the french Concordes I understood they were being stood down at the end of May. Then he could run a rival service against BA for a few months. That way he could really rub BA's nose in it which is what he is out to do. This has nothing to do with his feelings for Concorde. Don't think it's going to happen as all Richards interested in is scoring cheap points against BA as usual.

[Mooney]

Murdered by the BA beancounters.

Come on Richard Branson- lets see what your made of of and see a few of those Concordes in Virgin colours!

[mainfrog2]

It's sad to see the aircraft being removed from service and it's obviously a very emotional subject for a lot of people.
However as a lot of people have posted it was a dream for many people to fly on it, which for many, myself included was never likely to happen.

Air travel in general has lost it's romance and glory days and is now degenerating into a glorified bus service with wings with people scrabbling for the lowest price. It's not a bad thing that more people can afford to travel and that visiting foreign climes is not the preserve of a select few.

The demise of Concorde is a direct result of people no longer wishing to pay large amounts of money for a very premium product. You only have to look at the industry generally to see low cost airlines flourishing and full fair airlines downgrading their products to compete to see the industry heading this way.

[Arkroyal]

I wonder if BA could stretch the last flight until December 17?

On the 100th anniversary of the Wright Brither's first flight at Kill Devil Hills, it could depart from a North Carolina airport, (closest to Kittyhawk able to handle the SST) and fly home to Bristol Filton.

What the Wrights started, we appear to have finished.

For the first time in the history of aviation, we have stopped striving forward, and gone backwards. :(

[LGW Vulture]

Re: Virgin, I think you might find Singapore Airlines would want some input into making a decision on Concorde - and its not likely to be a positive one for you Romantics.

Face it - if the flagship can't make it pay - its dead.....Roll on the future.

[Raw Data]

Yes, it seems the romance of aviation is long gone.

It also appears that aircraft builders no longer have the stomach for brave and innovative thinking.

One thing is for sure, though; if Branson is even half-serious about running Concorde, the government should ensure that he has the opportunity to do so- it would be criminal if BA were permitted to deny others the chance to make a go of the fleet.

Having said that, I have a hard time believing that anyone could put in place the necessary infrastructure and expertise in a realistic timeframe.

It is an emotional subject, and many here would rather think with their hearts than their heads- me included. Even given the harsh realities of the current market, it seems a little short-sighted to retire the fleet to museums. Mothball them, maybe, until the market improves (as it surely will), but don't retire them- that can't be undone.

[twistedenginestarter]

411A - do I detect the 'Not invented here' syndrome......

Be fair. Remember our American cousins built an equally impressive tour de force - and lost it because of changing economics. I refer to the Lockheed SR71.

[411A]

Lets face facts here.
Yes, the Concorde was a great achievement.
Yes, it waves the British flag when it otherwise would be limp.
Yes, it is a thrill to ride in.

But,
Bits keep falling off (with some regularity)....not to mention the CDG fiasco, and the cost to FIX the design.
Huw stunn brings up an interesting point. If you have to constantly have a standby (or two) aircraft available....canNOT be economical.

Chop 'em up into beer cans? No, display with dignity...maybe a roundabout somewhere.:uhoh:

[Evanelpus]

411A

The CDG Fiasco......

Your comments repulse me, CDG was a tragedy, not a fiasco. I am signing off now before I say something which gets me a life ban.

[PAXboy]

I'm Booked! :ok:

Woweee!! :}

One BIIIIG fat grin. :E

When I heard on Wednesday night, I knew that I had to go. I was searching the BA web site, when I read of the £1,997.00 specials on PPRuNe and got the last available! I had to wait until today for confirmation as they were so snowed under with requests. So my enduring thanks to newswatcher who posted the news.

Friday August 8th BA0001 and back on a 744.

Wow. A boyhood dream, and that of my late father a flying man. I won't say anything more for now but - if I could not take the special offer, I think I would have paid full whack.

I cannot, of course, afford it but melted some plastic. Besides, think of all the BA Exec miles!!

[jet_noseover]

It was a fiasco. You might not like the word but A411 calls it as it is.

Tell me mate, how many planes were brought down by bursting tyres? If it was not for the flaw in the design why were the birds taken out of service, and retrofitted?
That sure added to their demise.

I will miss them nevertheless!

[Buster Hyman]

The fiasco was the DC-10 dropping parts on the RWY, the tragedy was the next aircraft to come along.

As for stand by aircraft. SQ keep a 744 on standby every night & have a crew on call to recover any AOG, they seem to be doing alright.

[MarkD]

I think VS would probably need BA and AF Concs [the ones with armoured cockpit doors, the reason the economics went kaput this time?]

A couple of BA and a couple of AF concs and the rest which weren't modified doomed to spares and Spams...?

Certainly after the writeoffs taxpayers made on Concorde, it should not be simply scrapped - not to mention that BA could reduce its writeoff by transferring staff associated with Conc to VS - good for BA shareholders! Rodders could save many BA jobs with a few millions in cost savings as opposed to writeoffs.

[jet_noseover]

"The fiasco was the DC-10 dropping parts on the RWY, the tragedy was the next aircraft to come along."

Buster Hyman

I believe Concorde has a higher record of dropping parts than any DC10. Luckily no one got hit with them shedding parts yet. And yes, I agree that the debris on the runway was a misfortune (or a fiasco if you want to call it that way) but that does not take away the insufficiency in the design of fuel tanks on Concorde. This is why the entire fleet certificates were revoked until the aircrafts were retrofitted with the linings. You see, tyres burst quite often, but how often do they puncture the airframe?

[PAXboy]

Speaking as an outsider ... and not wanting to pitch this thread into yet another picking apart of the CDG crash: I thought that the lack of deflectors on the AF undercarriage and missing spacer contributed more than a dash of misfortune to the event?

[Atropos]

Hear hear Paxboy.

[brockenspectre]

As many of you know I live under the Biggin stack for LHR and these days I am timing my afternoon/early evening walk of hound to coincide with the arrival of Concorde (approx 1740hrs overhead Beckenham) so I can grab my fill of her last days in the air.

I am saddened that the beancounters have won - Concorde is as safe to fly in today as she has ever been (perhaps more so, given the recent "improvements").

All I can say to fellow PPRuNers who know me - if somehow I come into money (Lotto win or unknown rich person names me as sole inheritor) those of you who, like me at the moment alas, cannot afford to buy a Concorde flight will have a flight on the kewlest civilian airframe to grace the skies before 31 October! Dats a promise!!

Just keep fingers/paws crossed that I get a big win on the Lotto - I am the last in my family on the planet so chances of an unexpected bequest are remote to say the least!!

:D

P.S. do you think the general love of this aircraft might not just be due to what she represents from an aviation/engineering perspective but to the fact that she looks similar to every paper dart ever made in classroom/workplace??!!!

[Goforfun]

I just checked the BA website, still £1,997.00 offers are available!!

........should I............... or should I not...........or should I............

[WhatsaLizad?]

What do the .85Mach BA guys do with the ex-Mach 2.0 guy at 40W, when he says over and over;

"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"
"Are we there yet?"


:O

[hobie]

this photo reminds me of a very special day in SNN ....... 8th August 2001 ...... ALPHA FOX was doing "touch and goes" and every one turned out to see her including the local Golden Retriever ....... I would imagine you would have a couple of dozen Policemen and Army guys on your back if you tried to take this photo today ......... so much has changed in the world since then ......

http://www.geocities.com/hobie_1_1999/hobiesphotossix.html?1010792493080

I shall miss her .......

[G-SPOTs Lost]

I know we shouldn't but is there any chance of somebody transposing some VS paintwork onto a file photo of a BA/AF Concorde.

I say we shouldn't not only for copyright reasons but to perhaps just to tease ourselves as to what they would look like.....

If somebody doesn't do it on this Forum, I bet its only days before we see it in a tabloid.

Such a shame....

[WhatsaLizad?]

I don't know how common knowledge this is, but you can feel the "boom" as the Concorde passes you westbound.

We were in an AA 767, As I was recording some video of it passing us overhead (like watching a contrail pass you on the ground), Other crew says "here comes the boom". I thought he was smoking something but in perfectly smooth air came a muffled slight boom. Not much, more like a slight slap one might get with an open hand on a car door, but still readily apparent in the smooth sunshine westbound on the tracks.

It seems somewhat strange for me growing up watching men walk on the moon, Mach 3 spyplanes and Mach 2 airliners, to end up where we are now. the world of aviation is starting to seem like the accounting field.


I'd better brush up on my Chinese so I can understand the next moon landing speech.

[boeing_bananas]

I think that this is just more BA (mis)management ineptitude. After all of the money that has been spent getting Concorde back into the skies, to ground the service now in my opinion borders on commercial suicide. Surely any true full fare passengers would pay more; after all whats the difference between 8k and 12 or 14k for a return ticket for those in the right position?? Why don't BA just give this idea a whirl and see what happens?? Is this the true reason for changing the London departure time to late afternoon - to demonstrate the low load factors and thus prove how astute they are in grounding the service before it's 'too late'. Quick I've got a great idea - sell the Concordes to EasyJet and make a quick profit.......whoops that already happened with Go - maybe not!!

[slik willy]

Sorry if someone has already said this but just a few thoughts of my own. Lets see I believe 1969 man walks on the moon. SR-71, Concorde. 2003. 500 seat subsonic airliners and video conferencing. What a boring world we live in. Someone take me back to the fifties... hehe

[B767300ER]

Hobie...great photo. Thanks for sharing; good on ya.

[Buster Hyman]

....Yes, quite true, but.... How often does a rudder have to go hard over before a certain aircraft's certificates are revoked or a fuel tank explode or an engine shed a fan & cut all the hydraulics? How many tires has the Concorde blown for one fatality?

[stormin norman]

Will they swop that silly plastic one at the entrance to Lhr for the real thing.Be a tad better than the Herald covered in Bird S..t
at Lgw.

[Youwererobbed]

Stormin.. I heard that the Concorde model outside LHR is being replaced with a twice real sized model of an A319!

[NW1]

I believe Concorde has a higher record of dropping parts than any DC10. Luckily no one got hit with them shedding parts yet You've just got to be joking. Or you're really called "Van Winkle", or something. The DC10 has killed more people with design flaws and "bits" (for bits, read whole engines, cargo doors etc.) "dropping off" than probably any other civil transport. And then the Sioux city accident demonstated yet another fatal design flaw. Yet, to the FAA's shame, it was never grounded to be re-designed properly.

Have tried to keep out of this debate 'cos it just too upsetting. Many thanks to all those who have expressed support for the best airliner ever built - and some closing thoughts:

It would be great if she could fly on but moving the operation would be impossibly complex for any airline (like transplanting a 200 year old oak tree into a small allotment - the tree looks great, but just try to handle the roots!). Branson may grab huge PR from offering £1 per plane (good for him - its what he does well), but he knows full well it couldn't be done. AF stop flying next month, and without the anglo/french link the project is dead. (The French support of the SST has been magnificent considering their personal loss in summer 2000, we could not and can not do it without them - and nor could anyone else).

BA paid many millions for the Concorde aeroplanes, both at initial purchase and to release them from the contracted tie-in with HMG which meant 85% of operating surplus had to go to the Government as the sponsoring manufacturer. This "BA was given them for a quid" thing makes great headlines and pub-chat, but it just ain't true. They are written off on the balance sheet to £1, but that is just normal accounting practise and doesn't reflect the price paid. No-one, not even Sir Richard - probably not even HMG, could afford to pay BA what they paid for the Concorde, its support and its post-manufacture development.

All good things come to an end. The final 6 months will be ones to remember - she will go out in the style she deserves.

[JW411]

NW1:

I think we have to get things into perspective here. How many bits would have been dropped had they made getting on for 400 Concordes?

[PAXboy]

I can think of one group of people that must be 110% delighted by this announcement.

The Board of Directors of Boeing. :hmm:

[NW1]

Gimme an elevon delam on every flight anytime. Its a non-issue.

These DC10 failures weren't happeneing because there were lots of them - they happened because of major design or maintenance failings and they still didn't ground it.

This whole "bits dropping off" Concorde thing is bogus - it was rare (in terms of flying hours, even at the rate Concorde is accumulating flying hours) and had no safety impact.

If losing a piece of aluminium was reason for grounding a type then we'd all be going by boat.

[JW411]

NW1:

The FAA did ground the DC-10 after the Chicago disaster. I remember it well for I got stuck in LAX. The grounding lasted for about 6 weeks as best as I can recall and no DC-10 was allowed to fly in US airspace until it was ungrounded. That was after they discovered that AA were trying to do engine changes with a forklift truck.

Perhaps I am being over simplistic but I'm not sure that Concorde is statistically any safer than a DC-10. I would guess that at any one time there were 12 Concordes in full time service? There has been one hull loss. So if we extrapolate that ratio to a production run of 380 Concordes, then there could possibly have been 32 hull losses worldwide.

I am just trying to get things into perspective.

[In trim]

......and if you look at the utilisation of Concordes vs. that of a DC-10 or any other airliner, then the statistics for fleet safety move even further in favour of the DC-10.

[BEagle]

That's as maybe. The DC10 is a fat, ugly matron of an aeroplane whereas Concorde is still the most beautiful thing ever to fly.


I simply cannot believe that the ineptitude of BA's commercial direction and the level of engineering support for the aeroplane have conspired to reduce passenger confidence to its current level.

If you operate Concorde as BA once did - and you don't attempt to take-off above both MTOW and RTOW, then hit debris from a questionably maintained airliner at a poorly supervised aerodrome and have such poor CRM that a crew member shuts down an engine which is still producing life-saving thrust at a critical moment without being ordered to do so, then you run an entirely safe operation.

I really hope that Sir Richard can salvage Concorde - the very best of luck to him. It would be just the shot in the arm which VS needs!

The Concorde experience - it's priceless!

[JW411]

BEagle:

If I understand you correctly, you are implying that it is OK to die in "the most beautiful thing ever to fly" but quite infra dig to die in a "fat, ugly matron of an aeroplane".

I can remember when I thought the Tiger Moth to be quite the most beautiful thing I had ever seen but dying in one had just the same result.

Upon reflection that is not strictly true. At least what was left of you after being dispatched by a Tiger Moth was probably in better shape when you had to check into the great guardroom in the sky!

[BEagle]

Rot.













.

[Lump Jockey]

Terribly depressing to see her go, especially in a way like this, after the upgrades and injected millions. Not quite right is it. Better to have shelved her after Paris, if at all. Alas....It really was (read, is!) a fine aircraft with the beautifulest lines (I've) ever seen. A dart, an arrow, a rocket. Sad, sad, sad! If Sir Rich intends to get one/them, then yes, good luck to him, he's a smart enough man to get her up and running again. But, I'd have to agree with some of what the majority of you are saying, and that's; he's got a snowball's chance! Anyways... I'm going to try and get down Heathrow and photo her so I can look back and say, "I remember the time.....New York 4 hours....bla bla.....England"!! Safe flying the glorious bird, all the crew who still have the ultimate priviledge.
LJ.

[jet_noseover]

NW1

No need to get on the defensive here or bring Rip Van Winkle in to this. Let the dude sleep. :)
DC10s have had their share of problems. As a matter of fact I will never fly on one. Give me Concorde and I’ll never stop flying on her. Truly spectacular lady and quite an accomplishment as far as craft industry. At/for the time.

“This whole "bits dropping off" Concorde thing is bogus - it was rare (in terms of flying hours, even at the rate Concorde is accumulating flying hours) and had no safety impact. “

Do you understand the word - bogus? Concordes were losing parts. Rear occurrence or not.

“These DC10 failures weren't happeneing because there were lots of them - they happened because of major design or maintenance failings and they still didn't ground it. “

You are correct. In the first part of your sentence. They did get grounded though.

I’ve looked up the stats on the hull loss of the DC10’s and Concorde and the score is 5.8 to 5.0 respectively. So you see Concorde is a safer craft. I would not even try to compare the two look or speed wise, LOL!!!!
But that was not my point.
Blaming debris on the runway as being the reason of the crash is not reasonable even if it was a contributing factor. Which I do not deny it was not. The design deficiencies not foreseen by the engineers/staff involved was the reason and the outfit gets the blame.
Same as NASA will get the beating once it's proven the shedding foam on the liftoff killed the shuttle on the way back.

Both tragedies, both great accomplishments, both grounded (one time or another) and eventually both might end up in the museums. (whatever is left of their fleets).
Back to the drawing boards on both continents. :)

Not so fast PAXboy


I can think of one group of people that must be 110% delighted by this announcement. The Board of Directors of Boeing.


"Ten years from now, Boeing will be making military and special aircraft, but its days of manufacturing large passenger jets will probably have come to an end,"



http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2003/nf20030410_9298_db035.htm

[Alpine Flyer]

I have had the luck to see a few (mostly AF) Concordes take-off while I was parking my humble turboprop at CDG. Especially with the "cheap" fares now on offer I am afraid I won't be able to get on a Concorde flight with a pass during the last months.

I have been living with airplanes during my whole life and Concorde was one of the first shapes I could recognize.

It is very sad to see this engineering marvels head towards some museum parking spaces. Given the complexity of SST and airliner operation we'll have to live with the fact that it's probably impossible to keep many of the wonders of the early jet age alive and flying. What sense would it make to spend millions to fly her 'round the patch every other weekend and who could afford to fly her to Oshkosh or wherever on a regular basis. If BA couldn't do it economically with the possibly unaccounted for help of a lot of their departments, who else could do it. There are some private Starfighters and F-5s and Russian fighters around, but a private Concorde (and a private 7x7) would be in another league.

So we'll have to face the fact that Concorde is joining the Zeppelins and the big Ocean Liners as a form of majestic transatlantic transport we can remember with fondness and awe but which belongs to a bygone age.

Even sadder than that ist the realization that economics (i.e. beancounters) rather than what's possible have become the limiting factor in our profession. Concorde shows on a big scale what we experience every day on a smaller scale. Who apart from a lucky few has ALL the available safety gear on their A/C, even if it's not mandatory. EVAS, EVS, EGPWS, etc. are all there, but we don't get it, if it's not in the regs.

In fact it's not only our profession but also aerospace in general. As the Columbia accident showed, we COULD build a new orbiter, fly to the moon or even Mars, but there's no one willing to foot the bill. (That's not entirely new, though; even Columbus had to promise a cheaper passage to India and riches beyond dreams to get someone to finance his trip.....)

If someone knows how to get on a Concorde flight without breaking the bank, just let me know :-)

[GH]

Concorde... it's not just for admiring...

On flights to the Gulf in the late 1970s the plane’s radiation meter — there to detect cosmic radiation because it flies close to the sun — kept going off like a temperamental burglar alarm over Iraq. This led to the 1981 Israeli bombing of the Osirak nuclear reactor, I learn from an internal memo from British Aerospace that floats into Atticus’s mahogany in-tray. Strange story, but doesn’t that earn it a reprieve?

- Atticus, Sunday Times, 13 April 2003

Why not fly them over Iraq again... with roundals?

[BahrainLad]

Absolutely Alpine, the progression of mankind is now marked by what we can "afford", rather than what we can achieve.

Personally, I find that rather repellent.

[ironduck]

Let's spare a thought for the ground and flight crews in BA and wish them well finding new positions, especially the engineers.

[NineEighteen]

I'll second ironduck. I have a Concorde documentary on DVD which features various retired Concorde pilots describing their respective last flights, the distressed emotions are clearly visable.

I feel completely gutted about this whole situation and I've only ever set foot on Duxford's (very much stationary) aeroplane. I can only imagine how thoroughly fed up the flight crews must be feeling. It's bad enough losing a job but losing that job...:(

All the best for the future NW1 and co.

Regards
9:18

[Pilot Pete]

In answer to jet_noseover's earlier question;

"The fiasco was the DC-10 dropping parts on the RWY, the tragedy was the next aircraft to come along."

Buster Hyman

I believe Concorde has a higher record of dropping parts than any DC10. Luckily no one got hit with them shedding parts yet. And yes, I agree that the debris on the runway was a misfortune (or a fiasco if you want to call it that way) but that does not take away the insufficiency in the design of fuel tanks on Concorde. This is why the entire fleet certificates were revoked until the aircrafts were retrofitted with the linings. You see, tyres burst quite often, but how often do they puncture the airframe?




From the BEA website;

Research was undertaken to find incidents which had involved tyres or landing gear on the Concorde since its entry into service. The information collected to establish the list of events came from the archives of EADS, Air France, British Airways, BEA, AAIB, DGAC, CAA and Dunlop.

The list in the appendix shows information from events coming from at least two different sources or for which reports or detailed information exist.



In the list, there are fifty-seven cases of tyre bursts/deflations, thirty for the Air France fleet and twenty-seven for British Airways :

· Twelve of these events had structural consequences on the wings and/or the tanks, of which six led to penetration of the tanks.

· Nineteen of the tyre bursts/deflations were caused by foreign objects.

· Twenty-two events occurred during takeoff.

· Only one case of tank penetration by a piece of tyre was noted.

· None of the events identified showed any rupture of a tank or a fire, whether leading or not to a significant simultaneous loss of power on two engines.




A sad day indeed when she is laid to rest.

PP

[JW411]

Pilot Pete:

Thank you for posting the above statistics. They are quite illuminating to say the least. Just imagine the debris that could have been deposited by 380 of them!

[M.Mouse]

Bahrainlad

I presume it is OK for others to be losing money hand over fist to keep a beautiful, but no longer viable aircraft, in the air to save your feelings of repulsiveness?

Or did you mean you personally would be happy to be losing money operating something that cost more to operate than it generated in revenue?

[BahrainLad]

Actually, my comments were more in a response to Alpine, who commented on the building of a new orbiter.

The head of NASA has publicly acknowledged that if we had actively pursued a Mars mission immediately after the Moon landings, in all probabilities we would be there by now.

Of course, I do not expect BA to operate Concorde if there is no market and no profit to be made. What concerns me is the introduction of new projects....we seem to have lost the quest for the "white heat of technology" so defined by Concorde.

I would hate for someone to argue that we should have never have proceeded with Concorde: not only did it provide considerable employment, laid the ground for Airbus, developed commercial fly-by-wire and prove that supersonic flying was possible on a large scale perhaps most importantly it provided essential data for the production of a future supersonic transport, when it arrives.

[Dr Jekyll]

Someone on a BBC forum is suggesting that Concorde uses as much fuel taxiing to the runway as a 777 uses flying the atlantic.

Approx figures anyone?

[jpsingh]

The greatest machine to take to the skies and far ahead of its time. Its end came faster than it should have typically because the Yanks weren't a part of profits!!!!!Anyone and anything in Aviation if not a part of the United States of America-the SUPER POWER caeses to be

[ramsrc]

In response to G-SPOTs Lost post on page nine, perhaps it would look something like this (from the Concorde SST site)...


http://www.concordesst.com/pictures/news/vsconc.jpg

[Tuba Mirum]

Dr J - where do they put it all then? :confused:

[Brit312]

Dr J
The standard taxi fuel load for Concorde is 1400 kgs of fuel, so I think that even the lean burn 777 needs more than that to cross the Atlantic.
I spent 23 years working with Concorde, and nobody is more sorry to see the old girl retire than me, but all things must come to end, and she has operated for 27 years during which time she has made respectable profits for British Airways. It must be remembered that it was BA which really developed the Concorde into the machine she is, with Charter work both short and long, exotic destinations as well as schedule operations, so let us have no more comments about Mr Branson having a go if BA cannot handle it. Without BA and Air France pioneering spirit the aircraft would have retired years ago
Reading some of the suggestions as to what her future holds, I think a respectable retirement is best, after all she is the Queen of the skies and it would be a shame to see her dressed up for her last few years as some dubious virgin.
We have to remember that for the last 27 years she has flown to the USA [schedule routes] under the cover a special agreement between the USA/France/UK to a few specified destinations, and perhaps if both BA and Air France stopped operating the aircraft the agreement would become null and void

[Freeway]

Anyone know what day the final revenue sector will be and what will be the cost of a seat. Now that would be a flight to remember!!

[Buster Hyman]

Thanks for the stats Pilot Pete. Perhaps then it was the bit off of the DC-10 that ruptured the tank??? Maybe that was the difference, none of the others followed DC-10's.

For my 2c, if no other airlines had the guts to put it into service on their own, then let the only 2 carriers that owned Concorde be the ones to send her off. Mind you, it did look good in SQ colours.

[moggie]

"....Send them back to Iraq with roundels on..."

Now here's a thought.

BAE have some spare capacity (nothing going on with the Nimrod line)...... internal bomb bay, refuelling probe (retractable), nice, nondescript paint job (like AF colours!) and there you have it......

................Vulcan Mk3

Wouldn't be the first time the RAF took an airliner off BA to make their balance sheet look better.....................who said "Tristar"?

[747-436]

Be good if someone like the Sultan Of Brunei bought one as the ultimate corporate jet. Would mean it would still be flying. He could afford to keep one running

[Flywheel]

747-436

Its not quite as simple as that really i.e throwing money at it, because I understand that Airbus Industrie have said that they will not "support" any potential future ( non Air France) operator, which just about wraps it up, n'est pas ?

[pilotwolf]

Got mine plus one!!!!

Less than 3 weeks and we'll have done CONCORDE!!!

:D :D :D

[maxrpm]

In the love for his tool the pilot resembles the craftsman. Like a craftsmen he will not so much appreciate the look of his tool, but it´s value in everyday´s work. Thus he will rarely judge an airplane he has never worked with.

But you could not help doing so if you´d ever been on final for 26R in Paris Charles de Gaulle and the Concorde was cleared T/O before you. Coming out of the overcast, doing another approach in gray drizzle on a long duty day. Both of you immediately recognize that slender white arrow blocking your RWY. And suddenly four stabs of flame from her wings make the rain sparkle. Then when the white arrow speeds along and the light of her fires vanishes in the clouds, a roar will enter every cockpit near , even those where the props never allow for any other noise. You´d then better not follow her with your inner eyes to see how the arrow straitens his point and speeds to hights where the sky does not know of cloud or blue. For somebody now better reads back that landing clearance and maybe gives heed to some sort of flare. Steering your Dash8 through the taxiway jungle of CDG after such an encounter, your plane does not feel small any more in the shadow of widebody row. All those 747,777,340 they look the same - clumsy, slow, outdated before developement.

A materilized vision of engineers and pilots that´s what will stay of Concorde. Maybe too far, maybe the trillion spent and the British AC developement brought to ruin too high a price. But a vision nevertheless.

[Full_Wings]

How about a final flypast at LHR on Oct. 31st - with all seven in formation?

[RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike]

BahrainLad,

Absolutely Alpine, the progression of mankind is now marked by what we can "afford", rather than what we can achieve.

It's not even "afford" these days; I suspect it's nearer to:

the progression of mankind is no longer marked by what we can achieve,
rather is limited to "what makes a large profit"

:mad:

[PAXboy]

RTFM - Yes, that is what we have all chosen. Whether we knew it or not, over the past fifty years, the western world has moved to the view with almost undivided purpose.

In the past fifteen years, the speed to which we have cranked up that view, now means that the 'machine' of capitalism is thrumming with a dangerous noise. Engineers might suggest slowing down for a bit, so that they can check all the interconnections and supply lines. But no captain is going to allow that. One day, the machine just might shake itself to bits....

[CaesarAgustus]

What will be sad is if some examples end up with another operator without the experience of running them ... expected result : accident. expected reaction from media : glee. told-you-so.

Mothball them. When the US Government (here the word fiasco applies) stops driving the world economy out of control and a sense of financial stability returns, there will be demand again, guaranteed.

There will also be only fat slow subsonic airliners with pax stuffed in like sardines...and once again, this triumph of design will show the world what can be achieved when we put our minds to it.

It will always remain ahead of its time, even when re-introduced in 2020..

[411A]

CaesarAgustus,
Ah...just how does the US government drive the world economy out of control?
If it weren't for the US government, the world economy would implode, or at best stagnate for a very long time.
Now that the Iraq business is well under way to conclusion, and IF the SARS problem can be contained, business will pick up nicely.

But not for the Concorde. It is old, expensive to operate, and apparently cannot make a profit with the low volume business segment that it was designed to serve.

'Tis a sleek bird alright, but no airline can continue to operate an uneconomic aircraft indefinately. Airlines have a responsibility to their shareholders to at least try to make a profit.

[huw stunn]

In 1996 BA operated a Concorde to the Indonesian Air Show in Jakarta. It operated on an extra scheduled flight out and back via Bahrain and Colombo - from memory 75 fare paying passengers back from Jakarta to London.

While it was at the airshow it operated a round Java charter with VIPs and anyone else who could convince BA into giving them a ride. Boeing had a 777 demo at the same time and got very acid when the BA flight took all the government ministers and VIP's. Comments like 'why did you have to spoil things and bring that over here' were to be heard in the bar.

What with that and the Red Arrows at the same display made you pretty proud - Happy Days

[OneWorld22]

Wasn't Tony Benn, that grizzly old socialist one of the key men resposnible for concorde? He was minister for technology at the time and his enthusiasm was critical for the final "Yes."

I think people sometimes forget what a massive cost to the UK/French taxpayer this project was at the time. I don't have the exact figure but it was massive. And with only 14 or whatever it was built and honest question has to be asked,

A waste of taxpayers money?

[BahrainLad]

I think I remember seeing a figure of $1 billion per airframe as a 'value' when taking into account today's prices, development costs etc.

Still, worth remembering that the US spent more on their wooden mockup than was ever spent on Concorde.

[golfbug72]

One of the lucky ones to have done it - post CDG crash - and what an experience - one that I will never forget

Have the ticket, boarding pass, luggage tag etc all framed on the study wall - got to try and get my wife and kids on before she retires - they have never forgiven me for going without them!!!

To those who have not, do it - the experience is worth the financial pain, and in reality, for a GA enthusiast - it is only about 15 hours flying which has to be sacrificed over the cost of 2 weeks on the Med - well only if you go alone and do not take your nearest and dearest with you!

3 hours 12 minutes the morning I was onboard and in my meeting in New York by 10:30am

[twistedenginestarter]

Wasn't Tony Benn, that grizzly old socialist one of the key men resposnible for concorde?

Absolutely no-one wanted Concord(e) in the UK. We did our level best to get out of the massive waste of money on a project everyone knew was doomed. Why the French forced us to go through with it I've never been clear. Perhaps it was purely and solely to upset us, cheese-eating surrender-monkeys that they are. I think it was about £11billion in today's money, and at that time we had even less money to spare that we do today.

411A

Often you are a sensible chap but I see you are still persevering with this "Concorde is old" nonsense. Do you equally reject, oil, steak, sex and invading dictatorships for totally bogus reasons on the basis they are all a lot older than Concorde?

Things are only old when there are newer things. Aeroplane technology has hardly moved since Concorde ie the era of the introduction of the 747. Engines, materials, speeds, costs are only incrementally different.

What has changed dramatically is IT, so the cockpit looks different but all that nets down to is you're carrying an extra crew member - not helpful but hardly a show-stopper.

Concorde is as near as dammit the state of the art. It's just nobody is buying the art.

[Pax Vobiscum]

At college (30 years ago) I once sat next to John Braine, Ted Heath's Aviation Minister, at a dinner. I asked him why all the orders for Concorde (there were 70-odd on order at one point) had disappeared. His explanation was that 747s required a certain proportion of first class passengers to operate profitably. Running a supersonic fleet alongside would remove all the first class passengers, hence nobody wanted the Concordes.

FWIW

PV

[411A]

twistedenginestarter,
Concorde is indeed "state of the art" for fast aircraft (the F/E notwithstanding), and considering the airframe age, could continue to operate for a long time. But there appears to be a deminished number of paying passengers that are prepared to ante up the required fare.
Different times...different economy...as when Concorde arrived on the scene.

[mgc]

here's a bit of fact and rumour, stright from a BA source.

As we know the 1000 seats at £2000 a go sold very very fast, I didn't get one.

However there are a few seats available at a little more, currently have two on hold but I,m ment to be in sri-lanka at the time.

a further release of cheep seats has not been ruled out, watch the gossip and move fast if they appear,

However, Since the anouncement every concorde flight has been full. Before the anouncement loadings were typically 50%

Therefore do BA need to release more cheap seats?

If she's full to October will she be retired? The aviation industry is a very fluid place!

[Brit312]

I don't know where you fellows get the idea that the Flight Engineer is a liabilty to the Concorde operation, as I can assure you that without the long term Flight Engineers the operation might have ceased a long time ago. In fact the longest serving crew member was a F/E with 24 years on the aircraft. Pilots come and Pilots go but the F/E's stayed until retirement. and you can't beat experience. As to the cost of a three man crew, every time I cross the Atlantic and go any where further than JFK, on one of these two man crew aircraft, there always seems to be 3 or 4 pilots on board, so you tell me where the saving is

Anyway the old girl flew over my garden today, and she still looks great

[Freeway]

Spoke to BA sales this afternoon. The upshot of that is that there are no £1999 deals available any more, they have all been sold out. There are however a few seats left at slightly higher prices.
The entire month of October is completely sold out,standard fares and offer fares.
To summarise, the girl at the sales office in Newcastle upon Tyne told me that for the next 6 months, there are now only a handful of seats left.

You've gotta do it!!:ok:

[under_exposed]

I recently got an email from flynow.com offering Concorde seats, you may want to try there. I suspect BA sold out so quickly because such middle men bought them all.

[NineEighteen]

Sir Richard Branson has told the BBC that Virgin Atlantic may seek government help if British Airways does not allow it to operate Concorde. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2955937.stm)

Source: BBC Online

[WOK]

No surprise that the bearded cardigan would try to get max publicity from the demise of Concorde, but let's cut through the fog of PR here:

Virgin can't operate Concorde for several reasons:

1-To set up the maintenance and training operation would probably cost what V.At. is worth (and certainly RB's share)

2-Without AF running it the (unshared) cost of paying for manufacturer's support are impossibly high (one reason why BA couldn't go it alone).

3-Airbus (i.e. Aerospatiale and BAE) would not support any other airline operating it. They are on record as saying so. Quite simply the costs of setting up and the learning curve are impossibly steep.

Before the mudslinging starts: I would be delighted to see the old girl stay in the air, even in VS livery, but it just ain't ever gonna happen, and if Sir RB isn't careful someone will call his bluff and he will find himself in worlds of merde.

It's heartbreaking, but she's going.

PS - we keep seeing this drivel that BA paid £1 for them. It's rubbish. When BA took them on it paid the government many 10's of millions for the operation.

[NineEighteen]

Yes, I'm sorry for posting that WOK. The Virgin story is actually quite annoying now...I'm already struggling to come to terms with the retirement. This isn't helping.

I'm sure it would be easier to bare if I'd had the pleasure of flying on her but I missed out on the "cheap" seats and as an ATPL student I simply can't afford the full price! :(

[gordonroxburgh]

As many have said BA did not pay £1 for the aircraft: In 1972 they paid full market value for the aircraft (around 30% more than a new 747 at the time). The £164M price tag (for the 5 originally ordered aircraft) was funded out of public dividend capital, as the airline at the time was owned by the state and not a PLC.



This was later written off when the airline entered into an agreement to pay the government 80% of all future Concorde operating surpluses. British Airways and Air France only received the remaining 5 aircraft , 2 for BA and 3 for Air France, in 1980 when they were "placed" with the airlines as nobody else wanted them.



In 1982 the airlines were forced into negotiating a agreement where they would pick up all the support cost for the airframe and engine manufacturers, currently being met by the governments for Concorde. The governments would pull the plug and the only way for the aircraft to survive was for the airlines to take the risk and pay for it themselves.



Finally in March 1984, BA agreed to pay a sum of £16.5M, that would allow them to take on all the remaining UK assets and opt-out of the so called 80:20 agreement. Within this £16.5M was £2 (2 pounds) for G-BOAF and G-BOAG.



Stopping Concorde services is set to cost British Airways alone £84 Million. BA Finance director John Rishton, told the London Evening standard that part of this was made up for £47M for the cost of modifying the fleet to the new safety standards and upgrading the interior of the aircraft.



This entire sum will be written off as they airline now had no hope of making it back in returns. Many parts of this upgrade, although purchased, remaining un-fitted.


The remainder of the £84 Million would be made up by writing off the expensive stocks of spare parts and negotiating the early end of long term agreements with third parties, such as the aircraft manufacturers.



If Virgin Atlantic wanted to fly the BA aircraft they would have to find the majority of this £84 million and this is on-going cost associated with the aircraft.

[PPRuNeUser0171]

If she's full to October will she be retired? The aviation industry is a very fluid place!

I was wondering exactly that.... Could all of this be some giant PR excercice?

Could they keep this going for a few years? i.e. in October say something along the lines of 'the take up of the seats on concorde has been so great she will keep flying for another three months' and keep that going for a while???

[Buster Hyman]

Now, if Boeing was still developing the Sonic Cruiser and pushed for speed over range.......;)

[GustyOrange]

Gusty was thinking of trying to book a Concorde trip via ebookers or one of the other discount travel agents who offer round trips for very reasonable prices.

Could anyone let me know if these are real deals on offer and any other relevant info.

A private mail (to avoid cluttering up the board) would be much appreciated from anyone in the know.

Cheers

Gusty

[norodnik]

Heard the bearded wonder on the news today going on about Concorde.

Have BA considered Wet Leasing Concorde to him ??

I have seen on the thread about Airbus not continuing support and that would kill it, but maybe there are options if BA could bring themselves to do it.

It would have more than 1 potential upside.

a) Keep it in the sky and BA get it back when hopefully things improve.
b) If it is such a financial disaster, then BA have much to gain by shifting a whole load of debt Virgin's way.

I must say, Concorde in Virgin Colours does not look right but that's just my opinion.

[PAXboy]

I believe that Eddington has been heard to say the polite version of, "Branson get's Concorde only after George Bush wins the White House in a free and fair election."

He has ruled it out. I am sure that they would have sealed up plans to get them to museums, before making the announcement.

[denzilmatic]

The best thing for the old bird now is to convert her to Coke Cans. Marvellous technical achievement though it was, the benefits were restricted to a small percentage of the flying public- who after all, guys, are our customers. The fact that she used three times as much fuel to carry a load of wealthies to the US in under half the time it takes for the (relatively) poorer majority shows that the thing was an irrelevance. I know it's not fashionable to say so, but look at how much of a difference the widebodies have made- I have no idea how many 747's, 340's etc are flying around the world these days, but I bet they have made more of a difference to people than 14 hideously subsidised (over 40-plus years I might add) technical marvels.

The level of debate in this forum leads me to think that many still cling to age-old ideals of Queen and Country and the Empire, and that the issue is one of the fact that a British achievement (conveniently downplaying the part played by the French) is now about to bite the dust. The simple fact is, the aircraft was never an economic success. Those of us who think that it should be kept flying at all costs ought to take a reality check. The airline business is a business, and it's the business end of it that keeps me flying, not ridiculous notions that we should be allowed to fly whatever we want, when we want and the way we want. We pilots should remember that, although important, we are just a part of the machine. And if I hear another colleague going on about the misdeeds of "Management".... if it's so easy to run a complex, multinational, fragile operation such as an airline... well, off you go, let's see you try. There seem to be so many business experts in the world, who seem to know the best thing to do after a decision has been made. Do me a favour. Keep flying the way you're paid to, and leave the business decisions to the business professionals.

It is a shame that Concorde is retiring, but I will be sadder to see the last 747, or the last Airbus fly. Flying boring aircraft is fine by me- at least they are more reliable and consume less of the Earth's dwindling resources. And in case you wondered, there is less time for unbridled emotional clap-trap in these straightened times...

[411A]

Denzilmatic is right on target with his comments, altho Coke cans is a bit harsh...but never mind.

One wonders just how many here who are wailing and moaning about Concordes' demise, have actually bought a ticket on Concorde, a full fare ticket, not an airline discounted one.

Not many i'll bet.

[norodnik]

411, I have bought a full fare ticket, on more than one occasion.

Concorde was purely a business tool which allowed me to get home at 2225 rather than face the dull 747 ride from JFK.

Those who say they prefer First class must be joking on the JFK-LHR run. Normal flying time is about 6.30, so even allowing for time to get to sleep and wake up/land you don't get a good sleep.

Its a crying shame she cannot be kept flying and if only she did not have the very British disease of being too small with not enough range, I'm sure she would have kept flying.

Maybe we'll get lucky and BA will change their minds, otherwise my Son and Daughter have at least the next 20 years looking forward to flying subby all the time.

I will be on her before she retires, and if NW1 will talk with me, I still have not been on BOAF, is there anyway I can get a schedule of which aircraft is rostered when ???

[Ozzy]

Seems a Dr. Philip James of Dundee Uni, wants to offer GBP1.50 for a Concord so he can turn it into a hyperbaric chamber
:8

I don't think he has much chance...

Concord the Hyperbaric (http://www.thecourier.co.uk/febcourierrede/NewsStory.cfm?StoryID=33135&Today=240403)

Ozzy

[PAXboy]

BBC web news (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2976749.stm)

Collectors bid for Concorde mementoes

Concorde's demise is blamed on poor passenger figures. It may be six months before Concorde makes its last flight, but already the bargain hunters are eyeing up "collectables" from the aircraft.

British Airways say hundreds of museum curators, collectors and bargain hunters have been in touch with requests to buy Concorde mementoes.

Article closes with:
BA has so far made no indication of how it will dispose of the magnificent flying machines, which took to the skies in 1969. One thing is for certain, the spokesman stressed: "They're not for sale for another airline to operate."

[WOK]

norodnik:

OAF is currently awaiting an inter-check. This would take several months and allegedly £1.5m, so it clearly isn't going to happen.

Apparently BA Engineering are attempting to negotiate a reduced check with Airbus (on the basis that it won't be required to last for 2 years......) which would make OAF's return to flying duties economic.

As for which hull does which flight, this is often decided the night before or later, so it's hard to predict which it will be.

Personally, I hope accomodation can be reached with Airbus because, in my opinion, Fox is the nicest of the lot. (And they're all fantastic).

[NineEighteen]

...in my opinion, Fox is the nicest of the lot...If you don't mind my asking WOK, why is that?

[norodnik]

WOK, I would be grateful if you could let me know.

I know I'm being a bid of a sad'o but its odd how 60% of the Concorde pictures I have looked at seem to be OAF.

In my first 7 flights I managed to go on 5 out of the 7, finally got to go on OAB which was fun as a) We had a rejected takeoff from JFK, no drama as we were only going about 20kts, waited for the brakes to cool and went off on the next attempt and b) Whilst in flight the mach display went wrong and the speed we were going gradually crept up to 1990 mph. I caught it on video so perhaps I can claim to be one of the fastest Concorde passengers ever (even though we would have melted long before 1990!!!)

OAD,OAG seem to turn up the most for me but I must admit to noticing almost no difference between any of them except for the different color (yellow or green) on the speed/distance display.

Finally, had a few chats with some ex-Concorde pilot firends of mine who acknowledged absolutely that this is the end

:{ interstingly they also had a few tales to tell about certain incidents that they had never told me before, I guess it doesn't matter so much anymore.

[gordonroxburgh]

I wonder when she retires and it is not as commercially sensitive to BA, we will hear all the stories of the close shaves that have gone on over the years.

"Close shave" is probably the wrong phase, but there are some great funnies around.

I've posted this one somewhere before, but it is still V funny.

It is an account from a traning day on what to do if the Concorde electric cockpit seats go wrong. It is taken from Ken Larsons' book which he wrote after flying the Braniff services

Runaway Electric Seat Procedure

1. Initial Action: Determine which seat is running away. During the stress of routine operations, it is possible to mistake which seat is running away. Example: if the captain's seat is out of control forward, it shall appear to the captain that the first officer's is running backwards. This is a common form of disorientation and will only last until the capt. is emasculated on the control column. Do not disengage the autopilot at this time as a violent pitch down will result. In order to determine which seat is the runaway, suggested procedure is to awaken the flight engineer for trouble shooting.

2. Silence Aural Warnings: With the advent of a runaway seat, crew members describe noises of a low rumbling nature followed by the words "Jesus, my seat is out of control," followed by a piercing scream of increasing intensity and pitch, especially in cases of forward runaways. As in all emergencies and in order to comply with regulations, the first officer will silence the aural warnings by clamping a hand over the captain's mouth and advise, "Captain's mouth - shut." From this point on, refer to the checklist located on the underside of the captain's seat cushion.

3. Jammed Balls: Should the seat runaway in the forward mode, the ball bearings will interlock and jam the seat when it is four inches from the control panel. The seat will then be stuck in the forward position and travel no further forward, but begin traveling up in a vertical mode. The captain will advise crew, " I have jammed ball," the flight engineer will immediately refer to the captain's Jammed Balls Checklist located in the aft lavatory. It is imperative that the crew check for the control column damage at this time. If the control column is broken, the crew will advise dispatch that the captain has a broken stick and jammed balls.

4. Circuit Breaker - Pull: The flight engineer at this time will pull the appropriate circuit breaker to prevent the seat from running up further in the vertical mode which could cause the bearings to overheat and possibly result in a ball burst. This would necessitate the use of the Broken Balls Checklist. Since the engineer can rarely find the correct CB, it is suggested that any CB be picked at random and pulled so as not to delay completion of the checklist. Example: Pull #1 CB; captaints position will prevent him from cross-checking this step.

5. Fire, Check: When the seat bearings jam and stop forward seat travel, the electric motor may short out and start a fire under the captain, resulting in a captain's lower aft body overbeat. The flight engineer will advise the captain of the fire, to which the captain will reply "Fire, my butt."

6. Seat Up - Up: Should the seat continue to run away in the vertical mode, the first officer will advise "Seat up," to which it is suggested to place a pillow on the captain's head and land at the nearest suitable Airport

[Woomera]

7. Captains Wallet - Check! The First Officer, will remove the Captains wallet from his back pocket, to relieve the pressure between his head and the cockpit ceiling thus allowing the vertical electric screw jack to run to its cut off limit, this will avoid the potential for fire and will determine the amount of funds available for the post flight party, whilst the Captain is being separated from his aircraft.

8. Insufficient Funds- The First Officer on establishing that there are insufficient funds to allow a retirement farewell party to the Captain appropriate to his rank, will reengage the CB for a sufficient time to allow the Captain to volunteer the appropriate PIN number for his Cashcard, then pull CB at the same time as wiping it clean of prints.

9. Checklist Completion- Actions An ACARS call will then be made by the First Officer to Crewing to report the unfortunate incapacitation and confirm his new seniority number.:E :p

[WOK]

norodnik:

I guess the reason you have seen so much of OAF in pictures is that it was the first in the "Utopia" livery and, as such, features in most of the current publicity shots. (As was the case with OAG when the "Landor" livery appeared).

Also, of course, Fox was the first to fly post-modification and was subject to more media interest at that time. If and when I hear whether Fox will re-enter revenue service I'll post here.

Nineeighteen:

The non-sentimental reasons I prefer AF are:

1. Better fuel consumption than A,B,C,D,E.

2. Marginally nicer handling than OAG, and without G's systems foibles. (OAG has a slightly different standard of DC electrical system and ASP, amongst other things)

None of which is probably of interest to anyone but me, really, but there you go.

[Compass Call]

The British Airways boss said in a telephone call to channel 4s 'Richard & Judy' programme today that the reason for retiring Concorde was that the manufacturer (Airbus) were no longer going to supply spares for the aircraft. Apparently the earlier reasons (economics/pax numbers) were incorrect. Richard & Judy had been interviewing Sir Richard Branson about Concorde when the BA boss decided to phone in. He also said that the CAA were going to revoke the Concorde's C of A due to lack of spares support.
Any comments anybody.

CC

[BEagle]

What was it that Mandy Rice-Davies so famously said?

(Apart, that is, from "Cor, Lord Astor, what a little willy....!"


"He would say that, wouldn't he?"

[iloveconcorde]

Well, of course I'm gutted about my favourite aircraft being retired.
I remember watching it during my break time (I was 11, at junior school)
flying around over Basingstoke during the week of Farnborough Airshow 1972
and it was such an amazing sight (and sound).

Even more thrilling was going to the airshow and seeing it close-up - three circuits
(one was a touch and go) at low level - and in those days you could stand a lot closer
to the runway at Farnborough.

More recently (probably 4 years ago) I remember watching from one of the air-side
lounges in Terminal 3 as an Air France Concorde took off bound for Nice,
followed within a couple of minutes by a B.A. Concorde.

At Farnborough 2000 on the final day (Sunday) there were a LOT of spectators,
including myself and my dad, who waited until the very end to see it take off
(it had been part of the static display)

It's a beautiful aircraft, reminds me of a hawk (swooping down) as it comes in
to land at LHR.

Hoping to fly on it to JFK before it retires. I wish we could keep it flying.
Wish I had room in my garden to give one a home.
Sorry, have to go now I'm filling up again......


:{ :{ :{ :{

[BEagle]

I remember:

Precisely where I was when the Anglo/French SST collaborative design project was launched based on the Sud Aviation Super Caravelle and the Bristol 223. (At home in Somerset)

Where I was when the official agreement was signed in November 1962. (At prep school in Somerset)

A lecture and film from BAC given at my public school in 1965. The brochure was covered in pictures of all the airlines who'd said that they would place orders....

Where I was when 001 first flew in March 1969 (At Cranwell)

Where I was when 002 first flew in April 1969 (Just about to go flying in a Cherokee at Weston super Mare aerodrome)

Seeing the 2 prototypes together at the Paris Air Show, 1969.

Watching the first simultaneous commercial flights on TV in May 1976 (On my Hunter course at RAF Brawdy)

Hearing about the Paris accident as I left the Farnborough Air Show.........

Seeing the crowds at Brize welcoming 'AF back into service. Far more than turned out to greet the US President the same week.

[Swinging the Lead]

Likewise - as a younger better looking pongo (!)

I remember being on the London Eye and seeing concorde positioning for a 27 LHR arrival - must have been the first test flight back from NY for a BA bird after Paris. Truely stirring stuff!

[Shuttleworth]

For heavens sake forget Bransons silly PR stunt.

He could not possibly operate Concorde even if he could get one for a quid.

He has no spare engines or parts. No engineers qualified to even tough a concorde. No suitable hangar and no essential specialised tools.

Not to mention no flight engineers or indeed, pilots who know how to fly the aircraft. He has no simulators to train crews with and he has no license from the CAA to operate a Concorde.

Even were he to go to such lengthy and crushingly expensive efforts to sort all these problems (God knows how much the pilots alone would want to leave the top of the BA seniority list) he would really struggle to find anyone willing to insure his operation.

Its a pipedream.

Branson championed himself as wanting to break up BA's monopoly and help out the consumer. Strange now he is dead against dropping the BermundaII treaty and really opening up the market. He is quite happy with his duopoly out of LHR thank you very much.




In fact its not. Its a cynical PR exercise whereby Branson muscles in on a story that has got nothing to do with him. I suggest you read the Tom Bower book on Branson to see that this is typical of the man.

I dislike his elbowing in on the end of the Concorde story. Most people won't ever know that he was talking bull!!!! just to get his name in the papers again. They'll think BA simply gave up whereas in fact their commitment to the aircraft has been immense for decades.

Not fair. Not sporting. Not British.

Typical Branson.

PS Not my post ; but from peterskellan - though I'm sure he wont mind me posting it here because it Sums up Branson nicely.

[starone]

Too true shuttle worth, how long will vs survise once the BII agrrement is dead?

Had an argument with the missus over this last night. If it were sooooo commercially viable why aren't there a queue of willing and hyperventilating airlines lining up to take on the ould bird?
He is motivated by purely commercial malice and ba responded in a suitable manner.

[PAXboy]

I guess that airlines are not queuing up because they know that Airbus has cancelled support for the bird. Branson may not have known this and Eddington appears narked that everyone thinks it is his bean counters that have shut it down.

Without moving this into a Branson thread ... When BA were setting up the BA/AA thing, I recall him saying some years ago (words to the effect), "I don't like it but if I were BA, I would do something similar. They are just trying to look after their shareholders and their passengers. I am just trying to look after mine." It maybe that going on TV to say how much he would like Conc is just a part of that.

One part of Airbus that was closing down the support for Conc may not have mentioned this to the part of Airbus that was selling A380s to VS. Hence Branson goes on to TV to say something that is wrong. It's called commercial life.

On better moments ...
I, too, remember seeing her for the first time 'in the metal'. She came out to South Africa in (I think) 1971 for Hot & High tests. My mother drove my brother and I out to (then) Jan Smuts Airport (now Johannesburg International). I still have the photographs.

Some 32 years later, on Friday 8th August 2003, my boyhood dream will come true. :)

[thegypsy]

As someone said this is a typical Branson free bit of publicity.

The very idea of Virgin having Concorde as a loss leader to wave the flag is nonsense. Remember Singapore Airlines own 49% of Virgin and so far have poured money into the Airline with still no return on it's investment. SIA are in enough deep mire as it is with the SARS virus and War having a devastating effect on it's profit,although the financial results to 31st March should still be good and no thanks to any contribution from Virgin !!There is not any more money in the SIA kitty to bail out Virgin anymore.

[ORAC]

The Times -

1st May:

BRITISH AIRWAYS was forced into retiring Concorde because Air France and Airbus, the French-based manufacturer, refused to continue supporting it, the airline’s chairman said. Lord Marshall of Knightsbridge said that BA would have been keen to continue operating the plane beyond the end of October if the French had been prepared to share the burden of extra maintenance costs.

BA originally said the decision to retire Concorde had been taken jointly, but Lord Marshall told The Times: “Concorde can’t keep flying unless the manufacturer is willing to go on producing the parts. Airbus said they were not willing to support Concorde beyond the end of October. We might well have considered continuing if they hadn’t. It would have made it much more difficult for Airbus if Air France and BA had presented a united front in supporting the continuation of scheduled services.”

Lord Marshall said that Airbus had been determined to redeploy the staff who supported Concorde to more profitable production lines. Airbus told BA that it would have to spend £40 million on maintenance over the next two to five years to keep Concorde flying. Air France said that the decision had been taken “in close conjunction with Airbus”.......

Jock Lowe, BA’s former chief pilot and commercial manager of Concorde in the late 1990s, said......that BA should have invoked the terms of the 1962 treaty on Concorde signed by Britain and France, which obliged them to continue supporting the aircraft even if one wanted to withdraw.......Mr Lowe said that he supported Virgin Atlantic’s attempt to take over BA Concorde services. “They would need a huge amount of expertise but there is a pool of recently retired engineers who would be very willing to help. Virgin has the marketing flair needed to make it work.”

Sir Richard Branson, the Virgin chairman, said: “Concorde was built with taxpayers’ money and handed over to BA and Air France for virtually nothing. BA is only acting as custodian of those planes for the British people.”

5th May:

The Goverment is to discuss with Sir Richard Branson, the chairman of Virgin Atlantic, his proposal to buy Concorde from Bitish Airways. Patricia Hewitt, the Trade and Industry Secretary is, "very interested" in the plan to save the supersonic aircraft due to be grounded in the autumn.......

Sir Richard Branson will this week unveil a team to work on his bid to buy Concorde that will give the Virgin Atlantic boss "more experience than British Airways" on the spersonic jets. Sir Richard said that Virgin was in discussions with "current and former employees of BA" as part of its efforts to take control of the ageing Concorde, which British Airways plans to retire at the end of this year. He said, "We have a formidable team lined up. BA has to realise that there are a lot of people in all sorts of positions, who worked on Concorde, who love Concorde, and who want to see it carry on flying."

[Dr Jekyll]

One of the major issues restricting the use of Concorde, and discouraging development of a replacement, is the assumed unacceptability of a sonic boom over land.

Could BA and the CAA be persuaded to allow one or two high altitude supersonic flights over the UK in the next few months so that we can see exactly what all the fuss is about?

Probably it will turn out to be unacceptable, in which case we will at least get some idea how much the boom will need to be suppressed to allow overland supersonic transport.

On the other hand it may turn out not to be that big a deal (and Concorde has flown supersonically over many countries in the past), in which case a replacement SST starts to look much more plausible

[M.Mouse]

I don't suppose that once Mr. Branson had acquired Concorde and painted the aircraft in Virgin colours that he might then decide not to operate them and place them in museums around the world, still in Virgin colours.

No, far to honourable to do something like that.

[Jock747]

Does this mean we will see less of Captain Mike Bannister on TV? Wonderful!

[exeng]

For all the reasons mentioned in this thread I too think it is unlikely regardless of any political backing.

I wouldn’t underestimate either the will in BA in preventing the aircraft falling into the hands of competition such as Bransons. Understandable in a way when one considers the massive investment BA have made over the years, in partnership with AF, on the development of this magnificent aircraft.

However I’m certain that Branson could count on a number of soon to be ‘ex’ BA F/E’s to support his bid to keep it flying. For their sake I hope Bransons bid is successful.

It would be a very tasty morsel indeed for Branson. I just hope he doesn’t end up choking on it.


Regards
Exeng

[NineEighteen]

Prior to the retirement announcement, Concorde was reported to quite often fly with a significant number of empty seats. Mr Branson also mentions this in the Sky News report.

Is it the weight saving that stops BA from filling the seats with, for example, first class subsonic passengers? Is it more economic to fly half full than to flog some 'cheap' seats?

Sky News report (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-12307282,00.html)

Thanks
9:18

[Ozzy]

Here's an interesting article. I think the idea to make Concorde a two class, instead of a one class, aircraft is excellent. The hyper-rich can afford the higher prices upfront, while the seats in the back could come down to first/biz class pricing.

Ozzy

Branson has plans (http://www.thisislondon.com/news/articles/PA_NEWPOLITICSConcordeconcordem?source=)

[Flightrider]

It will come as little surprise to anyone that Branson hasn't actually advanced a formal proposal to take over Concorde, as Patricia Hewitt noted this morning in her announcement. There is an incredible amount of publicity value in Virgin's actions but very little substance to show.

It also cannot be a foregone conclusion that Virgin taking over Concorde services is in the public interest. What other services is Virgin going to cancel - reducing competition for the subsonic masses - to create the runway slots needed for Concorde flights?

One cannot help but think that it would be highly amusing for BA to say "yes" to Branson's scheme. Branson would probably need a change of underwear on the spot at the prospect of having to deliver on his promises or face ridicule. It's almost worth persuading BA to agree to his demands just for the sake of watching his face when he hears the news.

[PAXboy]

I wonder why folks are so angry at the idea that there is lots of publicity for Branson in this proposal.

Whether he secures the aircraft or not - how will it make people buy seats on existing services? Yes, it brings the name and logo to the fore but I cannot imagine that affecting any number of potential pax.

Biz Pax:
i) If they get no say in their carrier, because of a corporate deal, then it makes no change.

ii) If they get a say - they will already be experienced in long haul travel and have a favourite.

Holiday Pax:
i) If they use a package, there is little choice. If they use a travel agent, they will get a choice of what that agent wants to sell.

ii) If they use on-line, they will get a range of the cheapest from the list on Travelocity etc.

iii) That leaves people booking direct with the carrier, in which case they have already made up their mind.

I suggest that the publicity factor may bring him to people's attention but will that get people on his planes? Nope. If he thinks that publicity for it's own sake is good - then let him try. If he shows up fault lines in the AF/Airbus decision and any other decision, good for him. Equally, he might show up fault lines within his own company. That is daily life in the airline game.

To the outsider, such as myself, the enormous enmity that is felt towards Branson by many in the airline biz, is a mystery. I have no doubt that you could all give examples (in private or in court!) of times when he has gone back on his word and generally made a dog's dinner of matters - but there is not an organisation in the world that has not! One could start with big airways ...

Be they government, charity or commercial (private and public owned), they all are worthy of derision at one time or another. But the insults that you throw at him? I struggle to find words to say how nauseating and unnecessary it is.

[JetFixer]

Dr Jekyll, Interesting comments. I have often wondered how much sonic booms do actually affect the population.

When I was a kid in South Wales we often heard some dull booming sounds which were alledged to be Concorde accelerating out over the Bristol channel, it wasnt that unpleasant, but then I have always been interested in aircraft.

The SR71 and the Tu144 must have flown quite a lot over land, both probably over sparsely populated areas of the former Soviet Union.
Surely the SR71 would have given away its presence on a mission with a sonic boom. Anybody like to comment.

[Simon W]

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-12307282,00.html

Someone has done a photoshop job on Concorde to show it in Virgin colours.

[mainfrog2]

Just for Branson and others benefit, Concorde is an Anglo-French concern ( Concord - literal dictionary definition is ' of one heart' ). If his lordship would like to see Concorde continue to fly why doesn't he go and badger Air France for some of theirs, their retiring at the end of this month I think. Concorde is about the aircraft not about the company.

Personally I agree with a few of the posts above. He's a publicity seeking ****.

If this wasn't more about giving BA a bloody nose rather than keeping Concorde flying he'd be spending some time down in France talking to AF I would think that they are just as passionate about the aircraft as the British are.

[BRISTOLRE]

What about the model at the entrance to the LHR tunnel??
Whats going to happen to G-CONC?
I heard some Saudia businessmen offered to buy it for GBP £5 million and were turned down by BA.

It will seem pointless to stay there when BA dont operate them anymore later this year.

Or, will it just be reliveried into VS colors? who knows...
PR

[exeng]

I don't know about the model at the entrance but I'm told on reasonably good authority that a real one will be permanently on show in Terminal 5.

Thats if they can manage to tow it over there without too many bits falling off. :D :D


Regards
Exeng

[Wobbles]

I personally hope that Branson gets Concorde for Virgin Atlantic, just to keep it flying. I don't see why BA don't want to sell it to him, if all they are going to do is stick it in some museum. Anyway, if they stick to the idea that absolutely no-one could operate it at a profit, seeing as Virgin is one of BA's competitors, it would make sense for them to sell them to Virgin, as they would be losing money.

Concorde is a beautiful aircraft and it has many years left in it. Just look at how long other aircraft have been flying, and how Concorde has flown comparatively little.

Anyway good luck to you Sir RB!

[mr.777]

I thought RB had already approached AF about buying their SSCs but BA jumped in and said that it had to be a bi-lateral agreement by BA and AF to sell them,hence no sale.Anyone know if this is true?
For those of you who think it's a bad idea for VS to get them,at least give them a fair go!They're only going to end up in the museum anyway,so RB might as well try....if he can't make a success of it,then they'll be off to the museums.I can't believe theres so much opposition from people within the industry to him at least trying to make a go of it....I'd rather that than see them end up in T5.
777

P.s those of you who question RBs motives should try reading "Dirty Tricks" by Martyn Gregory,about the BA campaign against VS in the early 90s......maybe you might understand why he acts the way that he does towards BA.

[Brit312]

If Virgin did manage to get hold of BA's Concorde, I wonder would he be willing to sign a contract that ensures that if the aircraft subsequently go to a museum then they have to be painted in BA colours

[Ringwayman]

A Virgin role for Concorde has been ruled out. This BBC story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3005705.stm) quotes Patricia Hewitt as saying in a letter, ""It is not for the government to make a decision on either the cessation of Concorde services or the disposal of the aircraft concerned."

[mgc]

I've only just got around to replying, Thanks to under-exposed for your posting about flynow.com (page 13) having a few of the cheapie tickets. I phoned 20 mins after your posting and got 2 :D :D :D :D :D

Just got back from JFK, what a plane, what a loss

Have been surfing the BA website and there appears to be quite a few tickets available at around the £2300 price one way, which were not visible last week, so if you want one....

[Vick Van Guard]

Just heard Sir Richard on the BBC, had a good point about the Airbus support which I hadn't thought of;

"as launch customer for the A330, A340-600 and A380 we have a bit of leverage with Airbus"

Meeting with them in two weeks apparently.

Good luck:ok:

[Dr Jekyll]

Naive question I know. But why on earth would Airbus not want to sell parts to an Airline wishing to buy them?

Is it that it would involve them in a large investment which they would lose if Concorde's future service life is limited?

Or is it just that they are French?

[Goforfun]

Having just watched Rod Eddington been crucified on BBC Question time- I can only give Richard Branson the best of British Luck in getting Concorde.

I think its impossible- but I'll keep every finger crossed for him :)

[carb]

Was good entertainment seeing Rod Eddington ambushed on Question Time - not just on Concorde but on age 55 retirement! - not surprising and makes me wonder whether it was inept or just arrogant of BA to have their guy appear on QT right now - particularly without much of a brief. If you don't want to have a debate, don't walk into one!

[Goforfun]

I can't quite get over what I have just seen of Eddington.

What a plonker rodders!

:)

[PAXboy]

Dr. J: "Naive question I know. But why on earth would Airbus not want to sell parts to an Airline wishing to buy them?"

I am not, by nature, a conspiracy theorist but ... Airbus Industrie's link to AF is probably stronger than the one it has to BA.

Sorry to have missed Q.T. sounds like it was a giggle. :rolleyes:

[Vick Van Guard]

Naive question I know. But why on earth would Airbus not want to sell parts to an Airline wishing to buy them?

Branson said Airbus want to re-deploy the people who look after Concorde on to other projects, as they make more money on new aircraft than they do looking after old ones.

Its not just spare parts though, its technical support for the aircraft which is necesary to maintain the C of A.

[MarkD]

VVG

I think you must have have misheard the bearded wonder -

VS have never had 330s that I recall, especially as they are evil things with "only two engines" :D :D :D

Spot on on the 380 though, something I also thought of as an "I do for you, you don't do for me" leverage issue.

[Avro Arrow]

VVG

A/c maufacturers tend to discount the new price of aircraft and offer all sorts of incentives to operate new aircraft etc. (see eJ deal with Airbus).

Typically, it's in the aftersales, spares and support where manufacturers make their money.

It must be a political decision because - if Airbus were a plc and not a GIE, then they would seek to make money for their shareholders.

In this case, they would say to RB - "yes, you can av ze spares but zere are many euros (more likely US $) attached to zem". If the price were too much then RB could decide.

Got say though with ten aircraft available you could still operate say three comfortably and use the other 7 as Christmas trees -providing Airbus would continue to produce the paperwork. BA effectively did that with the "spare" whitetail at BAE Filton for many years.

I am surpised Stelios hasn't launched a bid for them as he is used to operating loss making operations. I bet he's got easyConc. already registered.

AA

[Kerosene Kraut]

AA,

Airbus today legally is Airbus SAS not Airbus GIE anymore. It is a "normal" company owned by it's shareholders EADS and BAE Systems. And yes they want to make a profit.
Anyway I wonder how Sir Richard would manage to do so using old Concs that would need heavy reengineering for another 15 yrs in service.

Regards, Kraut

[M.Mouse]

Anybody know if Mr. Branson has made any approaches to Air France with a view to purchasing their aircraft?

The fact they will be available several months before October will give him cause for joy because he will then be able to show BA how it should be operated.

Very odd that he hasn't made any bookings for simulator time yet.

He is serious about operating them isn't he?

[PAXboy]

M.Mouse, clearly this is not a serious post.

Any negotiations and legal contracts would take four to six months. The Certification would (I think) have to be redone by VS, to demonstrate that they could operate the a/c in the approved manner. Therefore, the a/c (BA or AF) would have to leave service and be out for some weeks as a minimum.

Booking simulator time is irrelevant as its use will be declining and, by the time it is needed for the 'new' crews, no one else would be using it.

Looks like another personal jab at RB, for no purpose. Standard pprune behaviour.

[Hand Solo]

Perhaps it's because RB spends all his time making personal jabs at BA in order to get cheap publicity? If the negotiations need four months then he can still have the Air France aircraft under new ownership before the BA aircraft retire so why isn't he forging ahead right now instead of bleating on? Quite how VS would re-certify the aircraft with no manufacturer support whatsoever is an interesting question, one that suggests that the aircraft would be out of service significantly longer than a few weeks minimum (ie permanently).

[Diesel8]

See no reason for BA not to be willing to sell to VS, other than perhaps loss of prestige. Would not look very good, if VS was able to safely and economically operate the Concorde.

Like someone else said, BA was essentially given the aircraft by the Goverment. That means they belong to the people, since they bore the cost of development and one could argue, perhaps even the cost for the first few years, until BA went private.

BA does not wish to sell, for whatever reasons, but imho they should be forced to. The Concorde is a technical marvel with many years left to fly, believe BA was saying with upgrades she could go to 2010 or beyond.

"In museums to stay, no way BA"

[BahrainLad]

There is now an excellent FAQ on the BA Online Media Centre about the retirement. It's great to see them waking up and going on the offensive against the bearded moron.

The relevant quotes I think are these:


British Airways predecessors paid the manufacturers more than £155 million for the Concorde fleet (source:1977/78 Report and Accounts) and over the following 27 years of operation British Airways has invested more than £1 billion in the fleet.

The Concorde book value was written down to nil in 1979 and subsequent capital investments to 1983 were also written off to nil. (source: 1987 Prospectus on British Airways privatisation)

In March 1984 the government ended its involvement with Concorde when British Airways assumed full responsibility for Concorde support costs. British Airways Board paid £16.5 million to acquire the government’s stock of spare parts and was released from the profit share scheme under which the government collected 80 per cent of Concorde operating surpluses.

In 1987 the government privatised British Airways and collected more than £900 million for selling its interest in the airline, including Concorde.



and......what made me laugh.....


Did British Airways offer to sell a redundant Concorde to a music industry figure?

We have not offered to sell Concorde to anyone.

Full Text (http://www.britishairways.com/cgi-bin/press/view_article.pl?year=2003&month=05&day=09&index=0&reference=RG/05/03&title=Concorde%20retirement%20-%20frequently%20asked%20questions&mail=contact&image=none&position=none&caption=)

[no sponsor]

Branson won't do it if the business case does not add up. I would imagine the team he speaks of is doing just that, and they would need a good few weeks to figure it out.

It would seem unlikely to me that one airline could justify the cost, it would need at least two, or three.

At the end of the day, without the support of Airbus the aircraft is consigned to the museum. I always thought some rich Saudi would buy a few and run it as a larger executive jet, irrespective of the cost.

[GJB]

Eddington maintained the reasons for retiring the aircraft were:

1) It was not economic to keep the aircraft flying
2) It did not make a profit
3) Airbus was withdrawing it's support

Given that Airbus have announced they WOULD support Virgin with spare parts etc, only 1 & 2 above actually apply to BA.

Eddington, from watching his performance, must believe himself to be the final authority on whether Concorde should be retired. However if they genuinely cannot make a profit from this service then he is right to withdraw it from service.

Personally, I think it is a massive publicity stunt by BA and they will moth-ball the aircraft, only to reintroduce the service when economic conditions are more favourable.

[norodnik]

I am sure Concorde is not making a profit at the moment, but it is hardly suprising

Eddington seems to be doing what the Tory's did when they were closing the railway lines in the 80's
'
1) He has changed the time (supposedly at US business peoples request) from its normal 10.30 to 18.30. BA1 was busier that BA3 (in my limited experience)

2) Where have all the charters gone. Goodwood et al seemed to contribute very nicely to BA's Concorde profitability but these do not seem to have got going again

3) BA have reduced the in-flight service, reduced the cabin staff and stopped the nice little touches that made it fun as well as practical.

All in all, a general run down in the service. Little by little he has killed it off.

I'm afraid I can't see BA moth-balling the aircraft, it would cost a lot to maintain the crews, parts, inventory, engineering etc for their eventual return, and with Air Chance giving up the ghost, I am sure AIrbus would (rightly) charge more.

[I have control]

Answering the question "where have all the charters gone?"

This got a bit lost in the aftermath of the Paris crash, but a couple of weeks before BA put out the word that some cracks had been found in the spars of the Concorde fleet and they were no longer doing charters. I had been talking to BA about a charter at this time. They said they were concentrating exclusively on the transatlantic flights henceforth, to reduce the number of rotations.

[gordonroxburgh]

The BA charter programme was still going stong up until the day the fleet was grounded. They may not have been taking any more bookings for aircraft but were going ahead with the current bookings well into 2001. After this they planned to scale them back to protect airframe life, but not stop them as they are a very good revenue stream. The "round the bays" only used half an aircraft reference flight.

BA could have taken the risk with charters over the past year but did not want to do this and face letting people down....or worst not have a standby for the BA001!

The issue was they they only had 5 aircraft and needed 6 to do charters along with the BA003/4, at certain times they had only 3 aircraft servicable. eg 1 in 3 month check and 1 in a week long service check. If another went tech they were in trouble, hence the BA002 re-timings we seen.

This year there was big gap in the 3 monnth check requirements (as they only had 5 aircraft not 7) ,so charters would have been very possible.

Over the past 2 weeks I have seen BA flying all 4 servicable aircraft (C,D,E,G) regulary, so should be flying charters NOW!!!! and making some more money to off-set the £84M write of costs

During the day 3 aircraft are kicking about LHR doing nothing ahead of the BA001 departure at 18:30

They could easily be flying "round the bay" trips from the 10:30 slot, and then if the aircraft behaves during the short flight, it has been given a run out ahead of the evening's BA001, either as the main or standby.

Come on BA, you know what the public and your shareholder want. I hope they do not simply wait utill October to do just a few token flights around the UK:\