Broken Airbus@MAN (merged)

[tewkesbury]

BA currently have a BHX based A320 on the ground at MAN after diverting their with engine trouble.
Due to the fact that BA currently have 45 engineers on Gardening leave at Man and have closed the Hangar, they no longer have enough engs. to carry out the engine change.
Engineers at LHR are now refusing to travel to Man to fix aircraft in support of the Gardeners.
So BA have sent two management engineers to progress the job.
Just remember the last time management fixed an aircraft during a dispute the Captain ended up doing an extenal inspection of the Nose-cone at 10,000 ft : :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

[forget]

If you are referring to the BAC-111 windscreen accident, June
10, 1990; British Airways G-BJRT; over Didcot, Oxfordshire, this was a hangar engineer who used metric instead of proper bolts when he replaced the left side windscreen. Capt ( Lancaster??) ended up with one helluva view.

[tewkesbury]

Sorry to correct you but it was a member of TMG who had not worked the tools for 10 years or more and used 8/32 bolts instead of 10/32 bolts. There are no Metric bolts used on any Aircraft

[Jango]

Correct Tewkesbury, this is a well documented case used frequently in Human Factors training.

When will BA ever learn, they did the same back in the seventies when they shut the 1-11 hangar at MAN, and ended up with no cover for aircraft etc etc. 25 yrs later they are still pulling the same old routine!!!

[cirrus01]

Time for the Pilot community to ask questions about BA Engineering's mismanagement...........


DO YOU WANT TO FLY ON AN A/C THAT HAS RECENTLY HAD ATTENTION BY THESE PEOPLE ????


:confused:

[newswatcher]

In the interest of clarity, the AAIB report(1/92 - EW/C1165) states that the SMM who carried out the windscreen change had done 6 previous ones, but had not done one for two years. It insinuates that his failure to carry out basic checks to identify the "right" parts was in some way due to this previous experience. BA's procedures at Birmingham at that time allowed him to make the change without having his work checked.

The incorrect bolts in question were a mixture of wrong diameter/right length and right diameter/wrong length. Some of these had been present in the windscreen BEFORE the change.

A check on BA BAC-111s after the incident found two other aircraft with incorrect(short) bolts fitted. Two other 111s, non-BA, were found with 107 incorrect(short) bolts fitted.

[cirrus01]

So the question still is...........

Do you have any confidence that BA have learnt anything in the last 10 years ???

Desk bound Engineers doing Engine changes ???

[jocko0102]

How many people does it take to change an engine on a minibus?

[cirrus01]

Minimum is 5 during the critical bits.......lining up the mounts.

one person per winch (4 off) and the other (Usually the Licensed Engineer) ensuring correct alignment. Then requires 2 CRS signatories for the correct torque on the attachment bolts and re-connects.

[A300Man]

Remember the incident well. Seems like BA will never learn. Well done the LHR boys and girls for supporting their colleagues at MAN!!!!

On another note...........I really miss the 1-11. Doesn't anyone else? Far more character and beauty than the current crop of busses around.

Still, things have to move on, I guess.

[crusin level]

<<BA currently have a BHX based A320 on the ground at MAN >>

Didnt realise BA had A320's at BHX

Yet another accurate post trying to degrade BA's attempts at profitability.

Havent you got anything better to talk about?

[Landing_24R]

As far as I know BA have Airbus A319 (BA Mainline), various regional types (ERJ145 etc) of BACE and various CRJ/Boeing equipment of Maersk Air based at BHX, but no A320's. It's probably an A319 diverted into MAN. I remember when BA used to have A319's in their hanger at MAN from LHR/BHX for maintenance or whatever, they used to operate BA's Manchester services for a few days after their maintenance, MAN-CDG/MAN-AMS returns for example, in place of the B735's before returning to their bases down south.

Is the BA hanger totally closed now then? Did BA ever perform work for other airlines in the MAN hanger?

Cheers
Landing_24R

[763 jock]

No the above are things that manage to fly. Mr Boeing builds a work of art that graces the skies. :cool: :cool:

[topman]

crusin level

I would have thought that the possible use of engineers to change an engine, who probably have very little recency "on the tools" is indeed a worthy point for these pages, apart from being of interest to our pilot colleagues.

Additionally BA need little assistance in being unprofitable, they are doing very nicely by themselves.

[Direct HALIFAX]

Don't BA still have the ex BCAL A320s - GBUSA etc.

[giza]

BA have, 10 ex Cal CFM56 powered A320 G-BUSB Thru G-BUSK,

34 V2500 A319, G-BUPA thru UPX, B-UAO onwards.

7 V2500 A320, G-BUUA onwards

[overstress]

The ex-BCal ones are best avoided. Some of them are -100s!

[sharpshot]

A300 MAN
You will find two RR Speys mounted on a plane built to last in Larnaca. Flown by Aerotrans to many CIS states to bring tourists in to CYP.

Still loks good & sounds great:D :D

[tewkesbury]

The answer is when its applied to the 40 plus engineers on gardening leave at MAN.
At todays ENF meeting their manager with say that unless they except a job at LHR on a 12 year old redeployment package then they will have made themselves reduntant, the union will roll over and say its not COMPUSARY.
Watch this space for more info, who's next??? :mad: :mad: :mad:

[tewkesbury]

Sorry forgot to say that the Engineers' involved work for Big Airways:eek:

[LGW Vulture]

A. When its CompulsOry:D

[PA38]

Compulsory is not compulsory when it comes from a politician :D

[HOVIS]

It may interest you to know that the A319 at MAN is being "worked" by a couple of management grade engineering staff and one avionics technician.
They have been on shift for well over 24 hours!

Now if this isn't an incident waiting to happen................

As for sabotageing BA's attempts at profitability, does it make sense to invest hundreds of thousands of pounds training engineers and then allow them to sit at home on full pay whilst at the same time bringing other engineers from 200 miles away on overtime, lodged in expensive hotels, and dragging a job out for a bit more gobble because they haven't worked the type for years?
Also close down a hangar and then not 4 months later have to hire FLS' hangar to rescue a casualty a/c?

The same thing happened a week ago except thet they were sent up to MAN by taxi after working 3/4 of a 12 hr night shift and then allowed to continue working an ETOPS a/c for a for a further 14 hrs!!!!!

Does the CAA read this site? Do the shareholders? Do they care?

[giza]

I must imform u that the management engineers will not rx any overtime, and are now on "actual" allowances, not per day. So not much incentive for "dragging it out"

[Grotehaasje]

Compulsory is not compulsory when it applies to a large organisation.

Compulsory is compulsory when it applies to an individual or a group of individuals in a weak bargaining position.:( :( :(

[overstress]

Would someone be so kind as to post the a/c reg?

[mrcabbage]

Overstress,the reg is G-EUPA......And 6 days later it still aint fixed.Couldnt start replacement engine (FADEC),Then found wiring problem presumably from manufacture.(broken).Requires boxes out and re-wire,unless they get an exemption for one flight (risk burning out another engine) the work will have to be done at FLS opr another 3rd party hangar........Meanwhile 45 staff payed to stay at home ,most with recency and a few with cover are not to be brought in!!!!

[EGYPT1]

Good I hope the rest of the fleet go the same way…. And I don’t just mean Airbus. This company deserves all it gets.

[Obi-wan Kenobi]

Well the beloved Gatwick RJ's seem to enjoy loitering around in the hangars for long periods of time.:rolleyes:

[Tinker]

In addition to BIK_116.80 comment I would also say that it is very unlikely that there are any 8/32 bolts used on any aircraft.
:confused:

[Golden Rivet]

Think you'll find many 8-32 bolts used on galley/cabin trim.

Cant say I've come across any in primary structure but I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could find some.

[nilnotedtks]

Golden Rivet - I would tend to agree with you. 10/32 is a unified fine thread and 8/32 is a unified course thread, not really very good for holding 'important' bits together . . .

[Tinker]

So how come you aircraft fitters use 8/32 UNC bolts when the civililised world use 1/4 UNC :confused: :p

[HOVIS]

OK who wants to explain the difference to Tinker between an
8-32 bolt and an 8/32 (1/4) bolt?

[Tinker]

Thats what I was hoping for :D. I'm just a lowly mechy fitter, and you have been refering to said bolts as 8/32 and not 8-32. I knew there must be somthing in it as a 10/23 (UNC or UNF) bolt does not exist or at least it's not a nominal size. In addition to another reply I believe the UNF thread was introduced to hold 'important bits together' where an appropriate thread length isn't practical.

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

!0/32 / 8/32 bolts ? Also known as 5/16 and 1/4 inch. The common misconception of the UNF 10/32 is that this denotes a size, BAe Filton being one of the worst offenders (I remember when I worked there).

OK here we go :

The Unified series (UNF) 10/ 32 . the 10 is the series Number. Begining at 0 Unified = 60 thau (0.060") each progression of the series is a progression of 13 thau (0.013") therefore 10 x 0.013" = 0.13" + the 60 thau we started with = 0.19"
The 32 is the number of threads per inch (TPI)

N.B the series becomes imperial at 1/4 inch and the progressions from there on are nominal inch fractions

From the above I can tell you that 8/32 Unified is 8 x 0.013 + 0.060
That is 0.164" and 32 threads per inch (the bolt now being smaller 8/32 is UNC)

It would not be possible to use a Unified 8/32 screw / bolt in a Unified 10 /32 nut (it would not pick up).

I believe that the problem with the BAC 1-11 incident (fresh air for the flight crew) may have been caused by a mismatch of old english nuts (BA series) and Unified bolts.

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

8-32 .....1/4 UNC hmmmmmmm, my trusty Zeus tells me that !/4 UNC is 20 TPI.
So if I am wrong then it's all Zeus's fault. (old trick I learned from RAF type,s)

[Tinker]

Cheers for that

[giza]

I see u have all lost the thread here, anyway, I here the broken airbus at Manchester is now a broken airbus at Birmingham.

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

What was the question again please:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HOVIS]

Lemmon drop

Thank god you can put it all into words!
I would have got RSI just trying to type it.

By the way, not only is the A319 sick at BHX but the CAA have just paid them a visit!!!:)

[time-ex]

Another interesting and important thread that has been turned into a debate about basic aircraft engineering knowledge.
I note the thread has been merged, with what? a 2nd year apprentice forum on screw threads.
I smell a rat and wonder if a BA TMG representative has sent this thread off topic.
Come on and back the Manchester guys and vent your spleen at the TMG engineers from BA who are bowing to their superiors and
trying to do something they have no recency on, they probably haven't satisfied BA Quality by providing a Personal Experience Record for their scrutiny. So has BA Quality just given them their
passified authorisation back under pressure from their superiors?
Get back to the original thread - tewksbury respond please - what is the latest info?

[Tinker]

I'm sorry Time-ex if you smell a rat, as a time served mechanical fitter I was genuinely curious about non standard threads used in the aviation industry (at least non standard as far as my profession goes). It may well be basic aircraft engineering knowledge, but to someone of my background it is fairly interesting. I've spent many an unhappy hour either grinding tools or stood at a lathe machining threads of all descriptions most of which don't in the Zeus book. So fear not, a BA TMG rep is not on to you.

If this thread is so fragile that is not able to withstand the odd discussion going off on a tangent I sincerely apologise I will refrain from posting on this thread again.

[time-ex]

Tinker - I wasn't pointing a finger at you. Please don't take offence. I can see from your other posts you are genuine.

I still want to know how former hands on engineers are given authorisation by their Quality department to do something they have never done before, when other engineers have to fill in reams of paperwork to get an authorisation on an aircraft they have been working on for 4 years plus? The answer won't be forthcoming if we talk about bolt and screwthreads.

BA in T4 got a visit from the CAA today - the nicest Sunday evening we've had for a while! They gave up their BBQ's to come and check out the engineering being carried out. Something must have stirred then into action?

It's a good job Dr.Sunday worked his miracle cure and all the sickies came back, it made us look as if we had enough blokes to do the work in hand.

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

2nd year apprentice forum ?. Screws (threads) are in fact BTEC O.N.C subject. Like Tinker if I don't know somthing I ask.

Rat ? I served my trade apprenticship at Hatfield 1964 to 1968.

Sounds more like "paranoia meets the muppets". Hows that for rude ???

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

Of course Hi-locks fit into the UN series that I mentioned before. e.g A first oversize for a 10 UNC hilock fastener would be 11 UNC that is 0.19'' + 0.013 and so just from the basis of knowing that the Unified series starts at 60 thau (0 UN) and progresses at 13 thau per progression. All bolts and oversize bolts can be calculated.

Now I would go on the explain a "Geometric progression" series like the BA range but I fear time-ex may not be able to keep up.

It is just a percentile increse in simple terms. But I digress from the topic.:cool: :rolleyes: :eek: ;)

[Lemmon_drop_kid]

Of course with Hi-loks oversize the screw stays at a nominal size eg 10 UNF while the shank size increases 13 thau (1st oversize)

[allthatglitters]

As we seem to have ambled all around all sorts of things. So what is happening now, is the bus still tits up in BHX or Man, or has it been moved on?

"BA have, 10 ex Cal CFM56 powered A320 G-BUSB Thru G-BUSK,"

I am still at a loss to understand what is wrong with these buses, Like many others around, these were my first experience when they were new and were regually only towed or taxyed, with infrequent airbourne excusions. But now they have matured, they must be a great potetial for extra hours of over time.