Just Say No to Cathay - Here is why...

[realitycx]

Below is a copy of a the information, which you can find here (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/ban.htm)

The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban

Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.

A New Career in New Surroundings

Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.

Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.

Intimidation of Replacement Workers

First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.

Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.

In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?

Putting the ban aside for a moment...

Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:


Those sacked were given no reasons for their dismissal. No effort was made to establish the good conduct or otherwise of those affected. This despite an agreed Disciplinary and Grievance Process. It is probable that this action would have been illegal in your home country.

No demographic was safe from the recent terminations; victims ranged from the most junior first officer to senior check captains and even former managers

There are many outstanding flight safety issues that remain unresolved, due to management’s refusal to talk to the HKAOA.

Management is attempting to terminate the most basic agreements on housing, medical, education and basings. These are vitally important aspects of our members’ conditions of service, which affect all pilots working for Cathay, whether based in their home country or based in Hong Kong. Fundamental to any decision whether or not to join Cathay, management now believe that these items are no longer contractual and can be varied at their sole discretion.
Click here (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/Timeline.htm/)for further information on the history of the current dispute.

There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.

For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Public%20Newsletters/BTLs/49er%20Special.pdf) in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).

Please be fully informed before making this important decision.

The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.

HKAOA Contact Information

HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG

Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]

IFALPA Recruitment Ban

The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).

The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.

The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.

Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.

[G.Khan]

Sorry, it has been said before but how can a brand new S/O or F/O be taking the job of a sacked Captain? The guy that accepts the upgrade to fill the gap is one who has done that, thus filling the vacancy, no place for the sacked pilot to come back to now, it has been taken by an upgrader.

Difficult to see how you can hope to get your point across to CX wannabees if internally you are not abiding by the same rules.

[The Fan Man]

Unfortunately because every eligible person in Cathay has accepted an up-grade and that no pilot what so ever in CX has taken a stand against the acts of management in the case of the 49’ers, the requests of the HKAOA will never be respected or complied with by potential new hires, nor are these requests respected by fellow aviators abroad due to the nature of this dispute.

Just look at the pole of votes on previous forums to see what the majority view is.

Friends / workmates and colleges alike cannot even stand for their own friends who were sacked but they still ask for help from complete strangers to refuse employment in such a hypocritical situation , some of whom are un-employed with mouths to feed.

Cathay Pacific need to recruit 250 people in he next 18 months , also additional pilots over the next few years due to retirement’s. Every Single one of these positions will be filled with ease.

So you read indirect idle threats on an anonymous internet forum about harassment and an unwelcome reception, phone calls of abuse from people who are too weak and narrow minded to stand for what they believe.

Again these people ask for everything and give nothing in return, resorting to school bullie tactics to try and deter employment and win their plea’s.

Soon there will be 250 – 400 people who are new joiners to have a beer with, additionally many of the Cathay pilots do not support the ban in place and many will still welcome you. As you will see there are the same old minority on this forum saying the same old things with the same old chips on their shoulders.

It’s a shame that so called professionals are acting in such childish ways , with outrageous demands.

Fan Man

[BMM389EC]

"Should you have any questions..." You can ask them but they won't be answered. I e-mailed them the other day with a few specific questions and was told they did not have time to reply to my e-mail. Great- they have a ban which is seriously affecting my career but they don't have time to answer my questions!? Being a member of an IFALPA affiliated union, as far as I'm concerned they have a duty to answer my questions.

By their own argument the ban was implemented as a result of the 49 guys being fired. Fair enough, but does that mean the ban will lifted once the 49th guy has broken it? I can't see how no.50 will be replacing a 49-er. The AOA can't answer that question either.

It is also stated that the AOA is doing everything to resolve the issue as quickly as possible. I'd love to know what because at the moment from what I can gather the only thing they are doing is using my career and going about their day to day lives. Checking on the AOA website, the 'latest' piece of info is dated somewhere in April if I remember correctly. This ban is going to go on for a long time at this rate. I can't see how Cathay management will come to the table because at the moment they are still finding guys to fill the courses and they are not being hurt in any other way. So it seems for them it's business as usual. On this I could also get no answer to my questions.

Speaking to friends in Cathay( pre-ban) they all say I should change my no to a yes. This apparently is also what is said by other more senior guys in the company. So it seems the AOA line is that of a few operating on their own. I have also spoken to guys I know who are post ban. None have reported any trouble or unpleasantness and have been there now from just after the ban was implemented.

I think this ban started off well and if the AOA was seen to be taking other courses of action then perhaps it would be working but I am considering changing my no to a yes. The AOA are not answering my questions, keeping me informed, they don't seem to be taking any other action- so this thing is going to go on for ever, I would not be a 49 or below ban breaker(never mind how a SO fills a FO or Capt position- but thats another issue) , and those that I know who have broken the ban have had no trouble at all.
Why should'nt I?

[whistlingdixy]

life in hkg is still very fine indeed BUT mr bm### dont be fooled by any/all propoganda.
the aoa spins it, so does the company and so it would seem do your friends the 'new joiners'. there have been issues! late night faxes, 'scab' written on lockers...hell even the aoa has written to each individual and told them they a hazard to flight safety.
... now there is a quality piece of work. full of spelling mistakes, errors and omissions. the 3rd reich would have been loving the spin. not to mention the change of person midway through... as if written over a few days, or by several contributors.

be fooled not. this is an issue! the company screwed up sacking the '49ers'...... but yes many of us agree that targeting the new chaps is wrong (esp when the masses are unwilling to stand up and be counted)

what annoys me though is:

a recent aoa letter in which the assist gen sec states that flight safety is compromised by the "replacement workers". in doing so the aoa implies that the "replacement workers", mere SOs, somehow have the controlling hand or intimidate the old hands... what tosh! perhaps most sad is the implication that their own members are somehow excused from being professional.

having been on the flightdeck and witnessed one of these encounters i can confidently say that the aoa boys remained professional throughout.... hopefully not disappointing their leaders who seem to have little confidence in their ability to do so.

its seems that no matter what the aoa do, they just keep shooting themselves in the foot. roll on the elections, lets vote for some level headed leadership......

finally lets reflect again on the spin in the original document. remember that 35 of the '49ers' were offered their jobs back. the aoa turned this down........... stubboness exists on both sides!

[The Fan Man]

Yes I agree the pole of votes are from again an anonymous internet forum but it still represents a point of view from fellow aviators.

27.97 % Think the ban is fair

44.92% Think the ban is only fair if an up-grade ban is included

27.12% Think the ban is unfair

Anonymous or not it is still n expression of peoples views and it clearly shows how “people” in general are feeling. From this forum and from the pole it shows that "because" upgrades were taken, the ban is clearly thought of as being un-fair.

I agree whole heartedly with this.

Speaking with some friends at CX again the majority do not have a problem with second officers, again and again and again because it is generally seen by fellow aviators abroad as being unfair.

All the excuses in the world from die hard unionists will not dissolve this in the eye’s of the general aviation community. The old union sayings go “united we stand divided we fall”. Again let me express , no body stood tall , you’re already divided and in this case you are going to fall.

These last minute dibs trying to scare off young blokes wont work , and unless you do something to get them on-side in the near future , you really will be a weak and divided group of people with conflicting bargaining ability.

Wake up and respect the fact that this time guys you’ve stuffed it up, you got it wrong the world see’s you all as hypocrites – get the new guys on side , vote the new president in and work as a team, start on a new drawing board with a fresh set of mature tactics.

Not only are you shooting yourselves in the foot but you’re making life at work and around your friends and families very miserable , childish and boring. Acting like a spoilt brat throwing a tantrum isn’t going to get you what you want.

Some times in life you just have to start a fresh , now’s a good time to do it after the elections.

Regards,

FAN MAN

[6feetunder]

You obviously aren't acquainted even remotely with any of the sacked pilots Fan Man. The statistics you quote are largely from pilots outside of CX. Your few anecdotes about "a guy I know there" don't reflect the majority in the airline. Granted the ban doesn't seem fair but the majority of the members of the AOA will not forsake their colleagues, they will not "move on" and hang them out to dry.

Think about it, put yourself in the shoes of a CX pilot who has a couple of friends that have been victimised. Could you forget about them? If you could then I am glad I am not your friend.

[The Fan Man]

6feetunder,

Just to help clarify a few things. The display of votes in favour of the ban was not meant to represent members of Cathay directly, but how the aviation community view this difficult problem.

To say for the record : I do believe the 49’ers were treated unjustly , I do feel there has to be some resolution for the people in mention.

You mentioned “Granted the ban doesn’t seem fair”, again people have moved on because they have taken up-grades , so effectively they have hung their colleagues out to dry. Your words not mine.

The fact that when the ban was first imposed upgrades were still made available ruined any chance of a swift resolution from day one.

No ones forgoten about their friends as far as I know , but because no one has actually made a serious sacrifice for the sake of their collegues , the community view this in a very different light. Asking for everything giving nothing.

There are always two sides to a coin and from outside of Cathay people are looking at the situation as objectively as possible. We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week. Unfortunately those trying to enforce a recruitment ban are not looking at things objectively , their only excuse is ”well there’s a ban so you must abide by it”, how can anyone abide by something which is unfair or unjust? It’s so unfair it’s almost as unjust as the retrenchments in mention.

If the AOA told you to jump off a bridge would you? I don’t think so, make you own minds up be real.

Until you all start being real about this , you wont receive much help or assistance from your fellow aviators.

My advice is that you go back to the drawing board – these 250 or so positions will fill up quite quickly , you’ll need their help if you want bargaining power over the next few years.

I’ve been in this game a long long time I’m trying to offer constructive criticism and a point of view to try and put things into prospective.


FAN MAN

[BMM389EC]

Does anyone know when the election for the committee is?

[nudger]

THE FAN MAM.

"We know the facts because you guys spell them out on pprune week after week."

Yup this forum is full of facts. No Freehills here. No desperate managers here telling you it's okay to join because I did and I'm okay.

FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.

[whistlingdixy]

my comment on some 49ers being offered their job back and your reply just serve to prove my point....... it depends whose spin you choose to believe the most!
likewise, in the initial post the AOA are now claiming that the company hasn't spoken to them since 1999. (thats just spin.... does spoken, include all contact? surely not talks about talks then?)
so much spin its not hard to get dizzy.

fan man........ you speak sense. no hope for you here.

bm###: elections and agm on 9 july. the emotive 1st anniversary of the firings!

union and non-union alike, support the 49ers. the company was/is morally wrong (although legally [at least in china] in the right)

the only question that need be asked is "are the 49ers better off 12 months down the track?" answer no! and how could they be if the company and aoa wont talk. talks would start tomorrow if the aoa drop this silly ban......... result: union is unified, 49ers go through DGP. some will be re-employed.

the current committee has failed to achieve any gains in the last 12mths, it is failing the 49ers. 19th century union tactics will not work in the face of a union bust. the aoa is helping the company by dividing the pilot body with this ban (a ban no one, at any time, has effectively justified)..........and divided they will fall.

lets get it together lads/ladies. vote to drop the ban, vote to unify the union/pilot body.....vote to do something effective for the 49ers...... vote to talk to the company.

nudger: stop being so paranoid! how do you get out of bed? maybe the freehills boys are spying on you too! the might be bugging you cornflakes. watch out man, they're everywhere. (i'm not saying break the ban...... i am saying the ban is self defeating.)

perhaps time for a poll: who at cathay has the balls to strike? to risk it all in support of their yellow ribboned fallen colleagues....no-one! so stop the mightier than thou speeches and lets be constructive not devisive

[ironbutt57]

Just goes to show you the AoA only thinks about itself and it's selfish members.....

[6feetunder]

You say that like it's a bad thing.

[The Fan Man]

Nudger,

No facts hey nudger? Well why do the AOA have recruitment ban links and advertisements? What is the information at the top of this page? Why are all the posts on here explaining the situation of the 49’ers?

I can find enough information on here to make me feel ill for a week!!!

“FACT. There is an IFALPA ban in place for good reasons. Be guided accordingly.”

QUOTE : “ FOR GOOD REASONS? “

Translation : for one eyed selfish people that give nothing ask for everything

QUOTE : “ Be guided accordingly “

Translation : watch out guys or we’ll call you up at night and call you names , but don’t worry our mates who took upgrades, we’ll just go buy them another beer down at the Fong.

Sometimes I actually think I’m reading a comedy script when I read some of the garbage you gentleman write.

I’ve never wanted to write on this forum but over the last few days I was compelled to put my views forward. This whole Cathay thing is just driving me up the wall.

When are you people going to see the light?

People are leaving the union
New people are joining not in the union

You’re slowly becoming more and more divided – wake up and smell the coffee guys.

Change tactics for you own sake.

Take a shot of penicillin and get well all of you.


FAN MAN.

[6feetunder]

If you're so smart there Fan Man, go on up to HK and offer your superior skills and expertise to those selfish ignorant union types at the AOA. I'm sure they could use the help, they are obviously a bunch of incompetent bumbling fools. Go on up there and straighten them out, there's a good fella.

[july09]

Union- to protect and further the interests of IT'S members. Not possible future members. The HKAOA has done everything in it's power to protect those that were undeniably terminated as an industrial tool almost 1 year ago (july 09, 2001). The people that are going on and on about this ban are doing so because somehow it's in their best interest to have it removed. Applicant, Management, whoever. When it's in my 49 colleagues best interests to have it removed, it will be removed, until then it's realy quite simple. JOIN or DON'T.:)

[MT Edelstone56]

July09,

Out on a limb for your mates eh?

Get some balls.

You cant win,but you will always have a group of pilots to blame your feeble efforts or lack of tactical ingenuity on.

[203]

It isn't in MY best interest to have the ban removed, I'm happy where I am (elsewhere). But on the face of it, I'd have to agree, this ban is a crock of *****. The older guys intimidating the younger, more junior pilots who have more to lose with the middle ranks sliding up the greasey pole under the cover of the smoke screen. Nice.

[FlexibleResponse]

The number and vehemence of many of the responses to the subject post is rather telling. They would tend to indicate that the IFALPA Black Ban on CX recruitment of pilots has been very effective.

Other sources also indicate that the IFALPA Black Ban will continue to be an effective tool which will eventually force management to talk to its' pilot union.

[Wizofoz]

The only way the ban could be judged to be effective is if it was stopping recruitment.

It isn't.

It IS supplying the HKAOA with a supply of scapegoats. They themselves have written to the new recruits stating that the situation THEY have precipitated is a saftey hazard.

The entire thrust of this action has shifted from the management (Who, I entirely agree, need a very large going over) to the newcomers.

My first and over-riding objection to this ban was that it would not work, and it hasn't.

My second and very sincere concern is that it would turn a group of guys who, through no fault of their own were put in a very difficult position and made a pretty gutsy choice, into a persecuted underclass, blamed for consequences not of their making.

This is also coming to pass.

Frankg mentioned the 89ers and what they've "Learned from experience". The 89ers learned how to lay the blame for their predicament at the feet of everyone except themselves, and comprehensivley lose their fight whilst clinging to the belief that they held the moral high ground.

The HKAOA seems to be following their example.

[backspace]

Frankg,

At what point do you say enough is enough and this ban isnt working. Given that there are 250 odd pilots to be recruited in the next year or two and if the ban stays in place all of these pilots will be non-union.

I am not sure if the exact numbers but you now have say 500 non-union and 800 union pilots and the non-union pilots growing by the day. Do you think the management are going to have trouble recruiting these pilots? Do you think management are going to be worried by the fact that they have succeeded in dividing the pilot group and breking the union? Dont you think that it would be better to fight this as a united group rather than a divided one.

It would appear that the ban is serving only to divide the union and surely it would be better to stay united and change tactics. Some battles are lost but winning the war is far more important.

[Kubota]

Try "1300 union"...

[BlueEagle]

Somewhere in the CX contract there may well be a clause to the effect that conduct which neglects the best interests of the company will lead to disciplinary measures?

Since the company have deemed it is in their best interests to recruit, anybody actively resisting this by intimidating behaviour towards new recruits, (and themselves creating a possible flight safety issue, not the recruit), must surely be setting themselves up to join the original 49?

Thus you will have even less AOA members. It can only end in tears if confrontation is seen as the only way, even if you do have a pathetic management team, they still call the shots in the end.:(

[smallwing]

contract due in 10 days. lets see what gonna happen!

[backspace]

Kubota,

You seem to know the numbers. How many pilots are there in Cathay and how many in the union?

By the way the point I was trying to make is that the group that is non-union is growing by the day the group that is the union is remaining static or decreasing.

[realitycx]

The rights and wrongs are not that 'important' - someone who is considering joing needs to be more selfish than that. They need to ask themselves if they are going to be happy joining Cathay and becoming a management or AOA pawn.

This is the point that the AOA is trying to make in the warning copied at the top of this thread.

..... HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked ....... With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. ....Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject.....and [this] is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.


Morals aside, I am not sure I would want to be a passenger on an aircraft flown by someone that breaks the ban. It would be a very bold decision and you know what they say about 'Old and Bold Pilots'.

[ironbutt57]

surely I would not like to be a pax on an aircraft commanded by someone childish enough to drag such refuse into the cockpit....which hopefully is a small minority at cx.....

[6feetunder]

Cathay Pacific is no longer a career airline. It is not a childish individual that "drags such refuse in the cockpit" It is someone who has been under constant attack from a despicable management for the better part of ten years. I don't know anyone at CX who is happy to be working there. Why not leave you say? Well there is the money, and the current job market.

It is painfully evident by the slouched shoulders and cast down eyes of the guys on their way to work. You can see it while having a coffee in the DB Plaza. Not one of them looks like they are enjoying the prospect of going to work. That is especially disheartening when you consider that flying airplanes is what we love to do.

A career airline has a structured path for progression, a credible D & G procedure - not a kangaroo court - and a management that is accountable for their actions. None of these exist at CX anymore. The management has been led to believe that busting the union and destroying the seniority system is the best way to run the airline. Much of the credit for this lies with a few individuals but one particularly despicable individual is the Zookeeper. He has systematically and insidiously attacked the Profession of Pilot (he isn't one), to the point where 19 out of 25 JF/Os did not upgrade to F/O in the last few months. This after all of them had successfully completed all of the required training and passed all their checks. The reasons for being denied promotion were as weak as not enough polish or we have to be careful because your crosswind limit goes up from 10 to 15 knots. 19 out of 25 denied upgrade. Seems when you remain a JF/O you save the company about HK$10,000 a month (salary only) for basically doing the same job. Yep that's a career alright, another year as a JF/O to polish up or work on that crosswind technique.

You want to join, by all means. I mean ban or no ban, do you really think it is wise to waste your time on a seniority list that means nothing? Is it wise to go through the upheaval of moving to HK only to find that it really is that bad?

For my money I wish I had spent the last ten years on someone else's seniority list because this one isn't worth the paper it is printed on.

[Alpha Leader]

6fu:

Your above description of CX is one of an airline that pilots would be leaving in droves.

As they are not (at least not voluntarily), can we take this as proof that there is no better deal around?

Across all professions, how many people in the world do you think would like a better deal and can't get it?

[hvy 18 wheeler]

For those who know the stories, truly ask yourself does the hkaoa really condone intimidation or does it just turn a blind eye to it when it is done in their favour. Seem to recall a certain court case for a non member capt. with 2 comittee mbrs present and the galley had a lovely handful of 49'ers. What could that achieve if anything accept for INTIMIDATION.
The list goes on but to those with half a brain in their heads i think they know the truth!
Question is, which side is better when it comes to dirty tactics and intimidation?]

Tough choice:confused:

[Alpha Leader]

frankg:

I did read 6fu's first paragraph but I only wanted someone to second the implication that CX pilots cannot find a better deal anywhere else. Thank you for volunteering.

:cool:

[ironbutt57]

Disagree...it is childish and dangerous, and unprofessional to drag labor/ employer-employee disputes onto the flightdeck...it stops at the aircraft door period....has to...it cannot be allowed in anyway to affect the way the aircraft is operated, or fellow crewmembers are dealt with whilst performing their duties...social scenes, as you wish.....other wise the fight for safety and professionalism is pointless...

[Wizofoz]

Frankg,

So you are aware of the terrible job market in aviation at the moment. You know how many desperate out of work pilots there are. You would rather be working at Cathay then be out of a job. Yet STILL you support the ban which says these very same out of work pilots cannot join Cathay and have the job you are so glad to have!!

Please answer one simple question:-

DO YOU BELIEVE THE BAN WILL ACHIEVE THE AIM OF GETTING THE 49ERS THEIR JOBS BACK???

If the answer is no then SURLEY there is no point in continuing it!!

[Wizofoz]

Frankg,

I didn't ask if you thought it was justified, I asked if you thought it would work. Is it?

[The Messiah]

Have bitten my tongue long enough, here goes.

When this latest dung fight started I remember hearing the war cry "rostering, remuneration and benefits". Never was 49er part of the song. Unfortunately it is now the only song I hear. The 49er's are merely a casualty of war and should be treated as such. They are now however the major stumbling block which we continue to stumble on. Yes I have discussed this with several '49er's' as anonymous forums are generally a waste of time.

Before anyone votes for the next president ask him this. 'Dear Captain X, how are WE going to fund your plan for a resolution?'

Sadly by mistake, sacking 49 of my fellow workmates was a masterstroke by CX as my union lost focus immediately.

Please get back to the issues.

[6feetunder]

Oh chosen one! If you are a member of the AOA then you will be able to visit the members area of the website and view the video presentations from each of the three candidates. Notice the incumbent focusses completely on the contract. Your Committee hasn't lost focus, maybe some of the members have. Time to get it back.

[whistlingdixy]

frankg..... for someone who often claims to have his fingers on the AOA/cathay pulse, you sure scare easy!
DE skippers are for Air hkg, A300's...... due to start ops in a fortnight.

good thing too; if they had been mainline the AOA might have had that sinking feeling. rats from a sinking ship etc....nails, coffins etc sadly for the 49ers.......mostly fine chaps letdown by the failure of the union to drop the ban and negotiate.

still 1/7 rolls on, contract remains the same, no payrise, no change in allowances, no change in rostering....... no re-employed 49ers........................remind me again what we have achieved this last year???? oh, thats right, dilute our membership by 13%.

ps. you call everyone you dislike "nr", "nick" etc... dont bother, i'm sure at 0450 he is tucked up in bed laughing at us.

vote for reconciliation.... vote for mediation, vote for action.

[realitycx]

Feedback from recruitment is that the ban is having a big effect - few good people turning up for interviews nevermind accepting jobs.

Has anyone actually been recruited since the initial baker's dozen?

The intimidation - most of the time low key - is not going away. Not sure it ever will. Even if it means being completely ignored for 4 days apart from the odd check list, this has a telling effect on people. Understand the first few are ready to walk. Bit late now if they want to work for another IFALPA company.

Sad.

[The Fan Man]

Nice one realitycx!!!

Who's leg are you pulling? or better ...what are you pulling?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!

You really are good at employing boogie man techniques to try and deter new hires with your tales of cold shoulder treatment.

Again another mature one minded comment from you.

Ansett employee's
Kendell employee's
Hazelton employee's

Yep a real bad bunch to recruit from - ha ha ha ha ha ha ha NOT!!

This just keeps on getting better!!!!

FAN MAN

[6feetunder]

The common thread, them being from Oz. Someday they will learn, always seems to be the hard way though.

[realitycx]

I currently have an application for employment as aircrew on file with Cathay Pacific. I would like to be notified when the recruitment Ban is lifted.

Sincerely, ___________________

Based USA


Lots more too.

[pilotabroad]

Nicely written post from the AOA, pitty about all the lies:

I have not yet spoken to a CX pilot who supports the ban. It was instigated by the AOA committee (the 49ers) without going to the membership. Perhaps the committee (the 49ers) should leave the AOA officers and meet some line pilots instead of spending all their time in mutual support b*ll!!!!! sessions.

The AOA DOES support intimidation. They host/ control/administer a site (cprune)which listed the so-called scabs. They have put in place the ban which is all about intimidation.

CX pilots have replaced the sacked a long time ago. We have taken upgrades to F/O and Command. We have taken the basings of the overseas sacked pilots.

Each and every one of the 49ers were sacked for very good reasons. The company did not follow the D&G procedures or make the reasons public for legal reasons. The 49ers will NOT get their jobs back via the courts (nor by the current AOA policies). The 49ers we carefully chosen. The are NOT victims.

This is a great airline - it makes $. The more $ers any company makes, the better your future. There are very few (if any) other airlines which make the return on investment that CX does, and this is without government support - CX is VERY well managed - just ask anyone what it is like to work for any company which loses $.

Come and join us (but don't expect to start before next March - the courses are already full). Don't let the AOA lies and intimidation put you off.

[6feetunder]

So pilotabroad, how many of the AOA Committee are 49ers? You seem to know it all, please tell us. Are you a member of the union?

[realitycx]

I've just finished reading about the "49ers" (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Public%20Newsletters/BTLs/49er%20Special.pdf) on your website, and am very moved.
I am a 7X7 First Officer, and have been interested in coming to work for Cathay for some time. I was excited to read on the Cathay website that the airline would be hiring pilots again soon.

Upon learning of Cathay's intent to hire, I contacted a friend who flies for Cathay. He let me know about the can of worms management has created there, and told me about the
Recruitment Ban. A few days later I got my copy of Airline Pilot (US-ALPA member magazine), and read about the trouble you all are having.

You should know that the ALPA pilots around the world are talking about your plight, and we support you. I will, of course, honour the Ban. You must win this battle, or Cathay will not be a place any pilot will want to work.


Edited to protect the innocent.

Many many more like this have been received by the AOA

[Alpha Leader]

realitycx:

Are you for real? There are thousands of professional pilots out there looking for a decent job, and you are flogging altruism?:confused:

[Wizofoz]

realitycx et al,

The point is not how many pilots support you. I support the intent of your action (Though I TOTALLY disagree with it's form e.g the ban).

But if only a small percentage of pilots DON'T support you (and evidently, by the fact that CX is employing sufficient pilots and judging by responses on this forum, it is more than a small percentage,) your strategy will simply fail, while having the adverse effects on your situation that have been well thrashed out here.

I simply can't understand why you would persist with a path that just won't work. Is it simply to express some form of moral outrage? Or is it, as I sometimes fear, to provide yourselves with a group of scapegoats you can blame for your problems?

Ultimatley it doesn't matter who's morally right or wrong, what matters is who wins. Because the HKAOA was not willing to take sufficiently strong action and posibbly risk their professtional future, but rather put the onus on young incumbents to fight on their behalf, you are losing.

Why flog a dead horse that does nothing but create more victims? Drop the ban, regroup, and try something that might work!!

[borg]

For those of us lucky enough to be employed by a decent company I can see why one would think twice before applying or accepting a position with CX.

However, it is perhaps foolish to think that those employed around the world in general aviation or by other less than professional organisations to refuse an offer from CX.

While those lower on the food chain, (in this case those in positions in the industry I have just mentioned above) are continued to be treated like dirt, CX will have a steady flow of applicants.

Remember also people, generally most pilots are a selfish, money hungry species who will usually do almost anything to jump the fence to greener pastures. No doubt these are traits which have been developed as a sort of survival mechanism after years of abuse in this wonderful industry.

A ban of this sort I feel will never work due to some of the factors I have mentioned in this post.

For those who wish to persist at applying pressure to management perhaps it is time for a change in tactics ??

[kellykelpie]

sounds like Frankg, Kubota and 6feetunder were lucky to keep
their jobs. I wonder how long they will last?????

[Airport Train]

Regardless of what people think of the IFALPA ban, it exists.As someone who has ignored the ban your life in HK will be awful and I'm not talking about intimidation or bully tactics. You will always be "one of them". Given the history of management in dealing with it's workforce no special privileges will be afforded you. The check and trainers who are strong union members will move up the ranks and you'll have them to deal with. This is a fact of life.

The pilots who have accepted the jobs have been blacklisted by IFALPA. Now they may say "I don't care". But the fact remains they have been blacklisted. Cathay is not a long term job and moving somewhere else in the medium to long term is a certainty. Being blacklisted will do you no good at all. Look at all the Ansett Scabs now that can't get jobs.

Like I said, it doesn't matter if you don't agree with or like it. It exists.

Before anyone gets on my case I just want to point out that the Pilots at CX should have done a lot more for themselves and refused upgrades etc. I agree completely. Just say the word and I'm on a picket line. I'm just trying to point out that you ignore the ban at your peril.

Finally, after this !!!!fight is over there will be jobs galore at CX. The FOPS management will recruit everyone and anyone regardless of whether you honored the ban or not.

It will be worth the wait.

FYI The ban is close to 100% effective in N America. Thanks people.

[Wizofoz]

Easy to say frankg, but wil you accept the consequences of this strategy if they are to your detriment, or blame everyone else for the results of your actions?

[reliefer]

i believe many check/training captains, if not most, are not union members.

just to clarify this means nothing in terms of my views on the ban.

[BlueEagle]

Well now, a C & T is employed to check and train on behalf of the company is he not? The Company that pays him.
I certainly hope you don't have people in the C & T pipeline or out there now who would be sufficiently unprofessional as to allow union matters to influence their judgement of an individual?
Do you?

If suggesting that someones career might be cut short by C & T for totally unrelated matters is not a threat then I wouldn't know a threat if it got up and bit me!

[Airport Train]

I am absolutely certain that not a single pilot in CX will let the fact that the person sitting next to him joined in contravention of the recruitment ban colour his judgment.

:rolleyes:

The majority of the C&T department are union members. The Airbus trainers are particularly on side.

[Shot messenger]

There were a number of C&T captains that made life hell for ASL recruits. For a number of reasons the failure rate amongst the DE captains ran at 60-70% at one stage. Having said that the majority of C&T captains always played fair although that did not mean they had to be friendly or socialise with you if you get what I mean!

Things are different now as there is a formal IFALPA ban on recruitment. Although individual AOA C&T captains will be courteous and correct I would think they will be less forgiving in their write-ups.

On balance I would strongly caution against the acceptance of a position until such time as this is mess sorted out. This could be sooner rather than later. It could also be tied up with a new contract ( source: Street rumors) if things don't go the way the company want. If that happens all sorts of options may manifest themselves - not necessarily to the advantage of individual crew members. CX is NOT the CX of old. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

In short - enjoy the summer. Watch baseball/cricket/World Cup/Wimbledon/golf. Wait until Autumn before you start decision making.

As an ASL crew member I do not condone the firing of the 49. A proper D&G process should have been followed if the company felt strongly about the individuals concerned.

A third party from outside the SAR, without connection to either CX or the AOA, ought to be brought in to mediate a face saving, practical solution.

As and when this is resolved there will indeed be jobs galore to feed the expansion.

<retreats back into shell>

[6feetunder]

Well that's the point isn't it kelly? Join CX and wonder how long your job will last, sounds like a good career to me.

[Airport Train]

Well said 6FU.
Kellykelpie has summed up in a simple sentence what we've all been trying to point out for years. A great job....NOT.

[pilotabroad]

Frankg & 6feetunder

Since you asked...

It does not matter how many of the committee are 49ers - what matters is that the committee and direction of the AOA is curently driven by the 49ers. The real issue is if we have a binding contract or not. This will only be decided by a court of law (and I won't put $ on the AOA ever winning a thing in a HKG court).

I am a member of the militant bunch of fools called the AOA. If the current direction is maintained after the elections, I'll leave. As I have said before, I wish we had a professional body to look after our interests.

Perhaps someone could tell me why I should keep on paying my 4% when a 49er (aussi ex airbus f/o) feels it is ok to take holidays all over the world and has just brought himself an Audi convertable for 30,000 pounds?

[realitycx]

Pilotabroad, you wrote:

Come and join us (but don't expect to start before next March - the courses are already full).

I am not aware of any new joiners since the original baker's dozen. If there are some more, they are keeping a very low profile and the company are keeping them well hidden (ie away from flightdecks).

There have been some cadet courses start - but they are exempt the ban.

[Alpha Leader]

realitycx:

Why would a cadet course be exempt from the ban? Any rational explanation behind this?

Together with the "no ban" on upgrades, there appear to be more exemptions than bans out there!

[The Fan Man]

Direction , Unity and Co-operation is what’s needed from the pilots in order to achieve your goals over the coming months.

The company have clearly shown that they will not negotiate under present circumstances , the majority of you know this all to well. Don’t let the anger and “Hold Face” stubbornness of the AOA jeopardise the future for the majority of the pilots.

The ban is not working , it has been implemented at the worst possible time in aviation history i.e.: Post 9/11 Attacks. The abundance of qualified workers will continue to join regardless of the demands of the AOA.

Change tactics , get a grip move forward and get back to the negotiation table. For now put the 49’ers a side for a few weeks , concentrate on getting the best possible outcome for the people who are still happy to continue their career’s with Cathay , this is the most important task at hand.

Once you have secured contracts and conditions that everyone is happy with and have established a line of communication with management , then work towards assisting the 49’ers for reinstatement.

FAN MAN

[ironbutt57]

why not a post...."Just say no to Kaptin M and FrankG":) :D

[Daxon]

Two more reasons not to bother.

In early 1997 I stepped up another increment in salary and five years later the total salary is now about HKD 35 000 less. That’s correct, five more increments but the salary has gone down about USD 4 500 or GBP 3 000 per year

How about the guy who will have completed about two and a half years and will be leaving with a provident fund worth about HKD 30 000.

[cadence]

You know you guys are getting me depressed. I think I'll go donw to Wan Chai and have a few beers tonight.

[6feetunder]

ironass, what does he know? He's a friggen FE!! he's lucky to still be working, and if he isn't, GET A LIFE!!

[Alpha Leader]

6FU:

If "ironbutt" is "just a friggen FE", I'd hate to explore your IQ:o

[ironbutt57]

goodness....ever notice all the venemous posts are by the "die hard union boys"? frankg, kaptin M, 6 feet under? really fun to read and laugh at.....just an fe?.....nope.......but an fe is the best thing u can have on an airplane anyway.....757s are 2-crew...:D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Freehills]

Uhm, Daxon, leave any airline after 2.5 years and you get sod all pension/ pfund/ whatever...

[Daxon]

Freehills


One of the points that the HKAOA has been trying to make is that the retirement benefits are far from satisfactory these days.

You may well be right about leaving an airline so soon but this has not always been the case.

After one year, my fund was worth in excess of HKD 30 000 and after four was worth over HKD 200 000. Now, I’m not suggesting that we should all go back to the really good old days but I do think the scheme that you are probably on, falls a long way short of the mark.

The scheme that the two and a half year guy is on certainly is.

[realitycx]

It would seem that adherence to the Ban is 100% in N America.

[Brenoch]

What in God's green earth are you absolute tossers trying to accomplish??

Pilot starvation at Cathay??

Not BL@@dy likely..

Can't you realize that the IFALPA is comletely overrun and it´s only a matter of time before you all be displayed at museums..

One of your arguments in the circulare is that you will never after accepting employment with CX could be considered for a position with any other airline in the world..

Aren't we dodging the truth just a wee bit now..

[shortly]

Realitycx. What absolute rubbish. All US course slots are full to the end of the year and another round of initial interviews has just been completed with a very high turn up rate. For a lie to be successful it has to have a smidgin of truth.

[6feetunder]

How would you know?

[shortly]

Because this is the second time I have seen this dribble posted and so went over to recruiting and checked myself. I also am friends with the CT captain who conducted the interviews in good old US of A.

[6feetunder]

Not a member of the AOA then? And recruiting is going to tell you the truth because...

You really seem to enjoy watching your colleagues get screwed over, must be in line for management I would guess.

[shortly]

What a nasty person you are 6feetunder, not interested in the truth only in proliferating b.lls..t. Perhaps if you took your head away from where your backside is, I mean from 6 feet under you would get a better view of life. Recruiting have no reason to lie to me or you and the facts are the facts.

[6feetunder]

Of course they don't, no reason at all.

[realitycx]

A more reliable indicator is the number of temp frtr bases required in USA to fill the slots there.

The Ban will never be 100%. But it is very close to that in USA. Overall it is effective - who would come half way around the world and take such a risk?

FOP Mngt are very worried about the changing pilot culture - CAD are too. The IFALPA ban is a huge headache for management - fact. Whether it is preserving a good pilot culture or simply putting bums on seats, it is a major concern.

[realitycx]

Below is a copy of a recent press release, which you can find at the HKAOA home page here, under the press release 09 July 2002. (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/)

Information about the ban is here (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/ban.htm) and is copied at the top of this thread.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE 9 July 2002
Cathay Pacific No Longer a Career Airline

Contract Abuse Must Stop To End Nine-Year Dispute

HONG KONG

The Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA), the representative body for Cathay Pacific’s 1,600 pilots, today said that Cathay Pacific’s continuing abuse of its pilots’ contracts has turned the airline from a career airline into a contract airline. It also called for an end to contract abuse by the airline if the management wants to end the dispute.

Contract airlines, mostly the low cost carriers, function with short-term contracts for its pilots. Career airlines follow a different model with a seniority system to encourage the world’s best pilots to join for ‘lifetime’ careers. Through its mass sacking last year, pilots at Cathay Pacific are now effectively on a three-month contract.

“It is a tremendous shame that Cathay Pacific is only paying lip service to being a career airline,” said John Findlay, General Secretary of the HKAOA. “Its unilateral change to contract terms, continued intimidation of pilots and the mass sackings quite clearly show that they do not want to maintain their reputation for hiring the world’s best pilots.”

“If Cathay stops this contractual abuse, this dispute can end tomorrow. It is entirely up to Mr Turnbull and his colleagues,” continued Mr Findlay. “We are willing to meet at any time to discuss these issues in an open and transparent manner. We are willing to abide by the findings of an independent mediator.”

“We urge Mr Turnbull to consider this proposition and not to reject our request again,” he said.

Mr Findlay was commenting today at the end of the HKAOA’s Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM), held on the first anniversary of Cathay Pacific’s unjustified mass sacking of 49 pilots on 9th July 2001.

The sacking of the 49ers, who were fired by Cathay Pacific in an attempt to bust the union and intimidate its employees into submission, marked a new low in the nine year long dispute between the pilots and Cathay Pacific management.

Today at the EGM, the HKAOA’s members again voted to continue their support of the 49ers and their two colleagues who were sacked by Cathay Pacific one year ago. Despite statements last year by Cathay Pacific’s senior managers that the dispute was
over, it continues into its ninth year and support for the 49ers remains strong.

“This vote is a message to David Turnbull and his colleagues, that their union busting tactics failed a year ago, and they are still failing today,” added John Findlay.

Cathay Pacific’s management has rejected repeated requests by the HKAOA to meet to resolve the dispute, including recently a request to introduce an independent mediator.

The 49ers include four of the union’s seven negotiators, and a disproportionately large number of current and past union committee members.

[Cypher]

Does this sound familiar????


Flight crew go slow affects flights

The Fiji Aviation Workers Association has begun partial industrial action at the national airline, Air Pacific, following a breakdown in talks over issues in dispute.

The action consists of a work to rule, overtime ban, go slow and withdrawl of goodwill and co-operation by nearly 400 members of the association.

It follows individual action by members, up to 80% of whom earlier reported sick, forcing the cancellation and rescheduling of flights.

The Manager of Air Pacific, John Campbell says the campaign of ringing in sick resulted in the cancellation of two flights out of Suva to Christchurch and Auckland. He says contingency plans formed in anticipation of industrial action by the Fiji Aviation Workers Association were quickly put in place.

Campbell says ex-pilots, cabin staff and engineers as well as non-union workers were called in to fill the worker shortfall.

He says all international flights will leave out of Nadi and there will be some delays.

The association has agreed not to disrupt flights carrying the returning leaders taking part in the summit of the African, Caribbean and Pacific countries in Nadi, but says it has not been given relevant information.

The European Union aid commissioner, Pascal Lamy, who was in Fiji for the ACP summit and talks on the sugar industry, cut short his visit and left the country early to avoid being held up.

Meanwhile the government says it is considering referring the dispute to compulsory arbitration.

www.nzoom.com

Lets hope management and union haven't been taking lessons in how to handle contract disputes from Hong Kong....

:rolleyes:

[shortly]

Does anyone proof read what they intend to post before posting? Gott in Himmel, do the AOA really think CX management gives a toss what happens at Air Pathetic? I imagine they (CX) have their own well funded contingency plans for any actions that might come. Realitycx, thank you for posting that jingoistic pile of rubbish which the AOA purported as truth. Question, if CX is no longer a career airline and has placed everyone on a three month contract what is the attraction in staying? Sure you lose seniority, above average pay and conditions and operating great equipment. But isn't that whole burst about job security and longevity in career? What about if the AOA want to stop the dispute they stop all industrial action as an act of sacrifice. The ban close to 100% effective in the good old US of A, of course it is lmao. CAD worried about changing pilot culture, rather a subjective throw away line don't you think. I work with senior CAD officers in a number of areas and they have never expressed any such thought, wishful thinking I am sorry to say. Cmon people there is a way forward but now it is the hard way, we passed up opportunities for the easy out. By hard way I certainly am not alluding to increased industrial action but rather to a humbling step down and sea change in strategy. Moderation and negotiation rule ok.

[411A]

shortly

Don't hold your breath waiting....blue color might result.
It would appear that at least a small number in the AOA, which seemingly have control over the majority, want nothing less than total capitulation by CX management.
Certainly won't happen in their collective lifetimes, IMHO.

[Cpt. Underpants]

You...411? Humble?

Overopinionated, arrogant, loud, less than honest...yes.

Humble...never.

[Kubota]

Humble?

BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

[jumpseat]

411A,
Again, ignorance of the issues and situation lead to a post which quite frankly is utter rubbish. IMHO of course.

[Seriph]

My experience would suggest that Cathay are having no problems recruiting. Looks like the HKAOA are just like all other unions, a class war to fight.

[411A]

The original "49+" are cannon fodder...gone forever, like WW I recruits...whether the AOA like it or not. In addition, CX management has "NO incentive" to even talk to the AOA, let alone make ammends. So, a stalemate continues...:p

[bengi25]

411A

Opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. It will ramp up again in two years but with a lot more militant guys in the left seat. Settle the issues now and everybody will get on with life. But believe me it is far from over. Patience's my friend.

Remember we are all pilots and want a contract. I does not matter what is in it, but we want a contract. We can't live on a 3-month rolling contract. We need something on paper where we can plan our lives. I don't think that is too much to ask.

I would like to buy a house and have a secure income two-five years down the road so I know I will make the payments. Yes I know you think we are all paid too much, but you get what you pay for.

Don't get me wrong, CX can be a great company to work for, BUT for very little money/rostering it can be great. I myself have a lot of ideas that will help out the company and cost nothing which will improve rosters and help the company with productivity.

Hey I don't mind working (I worked a hell of a lot harder not doing Pilot jobs), but when you put me to work, do it efficiently. I have a life too. I don't mind working hard.

You are so anti pilot, I wonder if you are a pilot (or an accountant).

Help your employees and they will do a hell of a lot of work for you.

IMHO of course.

Regards,
B25

[shortly]

Bengi, good post couldn't agree more. This skirmish is about played out but the issues behind can be kept for a better day. 411A, my goodness man you really try hard to stir the pot don't you. There have been permanent tragedies already amongst the 49ers, let alone the pain, anguish and sadness among the 49ers and their families. A childish comparison between the WW I recruits and the 49ers is no analogy at all and a miserably pathetic example of your twisted and convoluted logic. The election is soon, how about you do us a favour and leave us alone for a bit. There are for and against opinions expressed here, and usually quite reasonably too. We don't need your ill thought out, short sighted, racist, sexist, ageist and nonsensical opinion. But thank you for posting anyway, we all hope you'll fly again soon. And, careful, Bengi remember which body part won the I rule the body contest, lol.

[411A]

bengi25

Yes, would agree that the CX guys need a contract (three years would be reasonable)...and no they are not paid too much, they just do not deserve more. And, rostering could be improved, for both the pilots and the company.
However, the CX pilots I have met (mostly in FRA & NRT) have had the inflated opinion that they are "the best", no other airline can compare to the "most experienced, best trained, most talented" flight crew that CX has. Of course this is a load of BS, and can be accounted for by the amount of beer consumed by the "most experienced, best trained etc...)
Inflated egos do not present much of an impression to airline management and indeed the AOA has now found this out...much to their collective dismay, i'm sure. Attitude is most important, and the AOA guys just do not measure up in this department...or perhaps they have far to much "attitude". And the "ban" nonsense makes their whole cause look ridiculous.

shortly

Don't stir the pot....just the facts. Lets hope that the upcoming "elections" will bring better results.

[Alpha Leader]

Bengi:

Your points well taken, BUT:

Everybody wants a secure income 2 - 5 years down the road, and you can look at any industry/profession and end up realizing that uncertainty is the name of the game.

What is preferable: a three-month rolling contract or one where you can be fired at one month's notice (not unheard of in many parts of the world)?

Given current economic circumstances and market value of airline pilots, the deal at CX appears to be sufficiently attractive to not only retain pilots but, moreover, to attract new recruits.

You cannot argue with the market in the long run. This is a core value the HKAOA has yet to absorb.

[bengi25]

Pilots are incredible loyal people. Only just a Very Very few people get fired on one months notice. Even if you screw up, it is better to keep you on staff because you have learned from your mistakes. Been there. I think the only people that get fired on one month's notice are guys that can't fly the airplane. Agreed, if you can't fly it, you should not hold the position. Not for throwing peanuts.

Economics or not, as an employee you deserve some respect. You work for an employer and give your utmost and you should get something back (whether a good roster, etc). This is not a sweatshop, yet.

Cathay Pilots are not unreasonable people. A guy with 20 years at the company should be able to get his Sons Graduation off. I don't think that is unreasonable. Yes I know we are all paid too much. Tell me that when we are over the Pacific with a cargo fire. I'm sure you know.

Cathay Pilots going around saying they are the best, are IDIOTS. Yes there are some around. I know i.e. Give me direct, don't you know who I am. Complete tossers.
411A, I got through grade six because I drove the teacher to school, but I found something I was good at both physically and mentally. Just like every other Pilot out there. All Pilots should be Proud of what they do. It is a skill that continuously needs nurturing and can have dire consequences if not nurtured properly.

Cathay makes lots of money on our backs, we are just looking for some kind of life style.

I don't think that is too much to ask. We are not bad people.

Regards,
BG25

[Setright]

I have been flying for 24 years, 19with a major airline.

I remember how excited I was when I went for the interviews,simulator etc. On the line everyday was enjoyable , I cant say I ever met another crew member I didnt like.

50% of the job is skill/flying , the other 50 are the friendships and socialising that go with the job.

Having seen a steady decline in conditions and renumeration over the years, its the friendships that have kept me going.
The point being the job aint worth doing without the later 50%.

Those of you considering ignoring the ban will have your own reasons for doing so, but please do not be disappointed if the people you will fly with have their own reasons for not accepting you with open arms.

[bengi25]

Setright:

I hear you. When I was flying a twin piston a long time ago, they were the days. We slept in the airplane all day and flew in the evening. All our flights arrived at basically the same time. We waited for each other to go out on the ****. I was BROKE ($795 per month), but you know what made up for it, it was the guys I flew with. We now have gone our separate ways but I know exactly where everybody is.

We don't email much, because it is not the same. Just having a beer with them in person speaks volumes. Christ they were the days. I have made new friends at CX and it is the latter 50% that keep me going.

I agree, flying is only half the job. The other half is making friendships.

All we are looking for at CX is a contract. Whether it is crap or not, at least it is a contract.

We are all pilots trying to do our best. Some of my friends will never know that.

Regards,
BG25
Pro Pilot, whoever you may be.
I think I am getting old.

[realitycx]

You wrote:

Realitycx, thank you for posting

You are most welcome.

[realitycx]

Below is a copy of a the information, which you can find here (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/ban.htm)

The Cathay Pacific Recruitment Ban

Thank you for taking the time to find out more about the International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) Recruitment Ban that has been enacted on recruitment into Cathay Pacific, and its subsidiaries VETA and USAB. Details of the ban are shown below. Please remember that joining Cathay while this ban is in place will not only affect your career with Cathay but also your ability to secure employment in other IFALPA affiliated airlines when you leave Cathay.

A New Career in New Surroundings

Joining a company like Cathay is an important step for you and your family. Every member of the HKAOA (Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association) has taken this step and we understand many of the factors you may now be weighing up in deciding whether to join Cathay. We understand that it is a difficult decision, moving half way around the world to start a new career and what is bound to be a new sort of life in Hong Kong. As a direct entry Second Officer you will be based in Hong Kong from your date of joining. As a direct entry Freighter First Officer, you will be faced with the same prospect of a move to Hong Kong at some stage very early on in your career. New friends, new schools, new surroundings - change all round. Try as we do, as expatriates, to escape into our own space in Hong Kong, it is not always possible to do so. Hong Kong is a small place and the expatriate community is close knit.

Is a move to Cathay one that is likely to lead to happiness for you and your family? Is this a step you should sensibly take now? Are there alternatives? Only you can really judge. But we hope that you will make these judgments carefully and that your decision will be an informed one.

Intimidation of Replacement Workers

First of all, you should be assured that the HKAOA does not condone the intimidation of any employee. However, if you do decide to join, you need to appreciate that in the eyes of most Cathay Pacific employees, you will be taking the job of a pilot that was unfairly sacked; even the best efforts of the company and the HKAOA may not be able to prevent incidents of this nature. Indeed, Cathay Pacific’s Chief Executive recently wrote to all crewmembers on this subject. This is the first time he has communicated with us since 1999, and is an indication as to the seriousness of this problem.

Unfortunately, the very nature of our job means that close cooperation in the form of Crew Resource Management (CRM) is required to perform our job. With the best will in the world and any number of rules written by the company, it is going to be difficult to operate effectively with someone who views you as a ‘replacement worker’. Would you be happy to operate in this sort of environment? Never mind the tension that might exist outside of the operation. Most trips involve social time together with other crew members, even if it is conversation in the cruise or a meal together on a layover. For many people this aspect of the job is necessary relief from the long duty hours and separation from family that define a flying career with Cathay.

In the past, most pilots joining Cathay have done so after much research and many conversations with friends already in the airline. This has helped people make good decisions for themselves. Most people knew that they were going to fit in to the Cathay Pilot group. Given the requirement to move half way across the globe for a job, this was useful! How easy is it going to be to fit in now?

Putting the ban aside for a moment...

Regardless of the IFALPA ban, you should ask yourself if you want to join a company that has such a dreadful track record of employee relations. Amongst many other issues, you should know that:


Those sacked were given no reasons for their dismissal. No effort was made to establish the good conduct or otherwise of those affected. This despite an agreed Disciplinary and Grievance Process. It is probable that this action would have been illegal in your home country.

No demographic was safe from the recent terminations; victims ranged from the most junior first officer to senior check captains and even former managers

There are many outstanding flight safety issues that remain unresolved, due to management’s refusal to talk to the HKAOA.

Management is attempting to terminate the most basic agreements on housing, medical, education and basings. These are vitally important aspects of our members’ conditions of service, which affect all pilots working for Cathay, whether based in their home country or based in Hong Kong. Fundamental to any decision whether or not to join Cathay, management now believe that these items are no longer contractual and can be varied at their sole discretion.
Click here (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/Timeline.htm/)for further information on the history of the current dispute.

There is little doubt that Cathay can progress towards a good future when the current dispute is amicably resolved. However, while the contribution of our members is little recognised and less and less rewarded, we urge you to consider carefully your decision to join Cathay with the IFALPA Recruitment Ban in force.

For more information, please contact us at the addresses and numbers below. Better still, call a friend at Cathay. You can also download a special report on our sacked colleagues entitled The 49ers (http://bbs.hkalpa.org/public/information/Public%20Newsletters/BTLs/49er%20Special.pdf) in Adobe Acrobat format (.pdf).

Please be fully informed before making this important decision.

The HKAOA is doing all it can to resolve this difficult issue as quickly as possible. Please register with us at the email address below and we will advise you when the IFALPA Recruitment Ban is lifted. Once the Ban is lifted, you will be welcomed as a colleague and we can, together, look forward to a brighter future.

HKAOA Contact Information

HKAOA
5/F, Daily House
Haiphong Road
Tsim Sha Tsui
HONG KONG

Fax: +852 2736 0903
[email protected]

IFALPA Recruitment Ban

The International Federation of Air Line Pilots Associations (IFALPA) has enacted a ban on recruitment into Cathay Pacific Airways Ltd., Veta Ltd. and USAB Ltd. on behalf of the member pilots of the Hong Kong Aircrew Officers Association (HKAOA).

The Recruitment Ban comes into effect for any pilot who accepts employment commencing on or after 9th October 2001. The recruitment ban has been enacted in response to Cathay Pacific management’s firing 51 Union pilots in July 2001. These pilots were terminated for no reason and they were denied the ability to appeal the decision through the contractual Disciplinary and Grievance procedure. The intention of the ban is to maximise the pressure to re-employ our pilots whilst the dispute continues. Recruitment of replacement pilots delays a successful resolution to the dispute.

The HKAOA will not provide support for replacement pilots in any circumstances whereby it would normally act on behalf of a member pilot. Such support is a major ingredient of a pilot’s airline career and includes assistance in case of accident or incident, discipline and grievance, legal representation in foreign countries, personal insurance, family support, salary negotiation and contract protection.

Should any pilot have questions relating to this ban, please contact the HKAOA.

[BlueEagle]

Just one post in two weeks on this thread and the last one a repeat.

The CX ban is open for discussion on several threads here on Fragrant Harbour and as this one seems to have run it's course I am going to close it now.

BlueEagle - Moderator.