View Full Version : Is the IFALPA/HKAOA Cathay recuitment ban fair?
Wizofoz
8th May 2002, 03:28
Have your say! Union bans only work if most pepople support them. Do you?
Brae_Cwynd
8th May 2002, 09:29
You only have to look at the very long history of this dispute to see that the actions by Cathay management are all part of a classic 'union busting' campaign. The dice are all loaded in the managements favour. The recruitment ban is one of the very few weapons that the guys have and we should support it and the '49 ers' as much as we possibly can.
Remember, it could be you and your company next!
ironbutt57
8th May 2002, 13:53
that union SHOULD be busted flushed more appropriate...what a bunch of selfish whingeing self-centered tossers.
ironbutt57
Another eloquent reply from someone not fully abreast of the situation.
Thank you
Of course it's classic union busting, and nearly always possible in HKG due to the local laws.....a management paradise from a labor relations standpoint.
And, the AOA will never learn......it is (more or less) a contract airline, like it or not.:rolleyes:
Tough beans.
Al E. Vator
9th May 2002, 03:25
Jeeeeeeez Ironbutt and 411......whaddya you guys do all day?
Do you sit foaming at the mouth over the computer, rabidly waiting for someone else to post something on Fragrant Harbour so you can hop in and tell the AoA they are finished.
A little manic don't you think?
sand dune
9th May 2002, 05:57
Yes the ban is fair, but…
The management is laughing because they are presently attracting the same king of spineless “yes men” as themselves. The "stand up" guys are knocking it back, but they can always go to Emirates.
Did I hear: “But I don’t have a job and I have a mortgage”
Just do as you would if you were to accept the CX job. Sell your house and move to a 700 Sq. foot flat (like one that you would get on a CX S/O housing allowance), only do it in your home country instead. You will be able to work and live as comfortably as most people do while you wait for the dust to settle at CX. More importantly you will be able to keep your professional reputation intact. Once you lose it, it’s for life. Someone I know is a Lorenzo Continental Scab from the eighties and he still pays for his mistake.
RadioFlyer
9th May 2002, 08:28
:D :D :D
Al, that is so funny because it is so true!
ironbutt57
9th May 2002, 21:48
True story..two blokes in '89 walk the walk of the dispute....the younger fellow gets hired at cx mainline because he "fits the mould"...later the old skipper who trained him gets hired at ASL because, while he's a pilot, he's "freighter quality"...the young bloke now labels the old skipper a "scab"...the old skipper quits cx in disgust(got quitted by a fellow 89'er)....I had the priviledge of serving as the "old skipper's" f.o. for many hours..the quintessential professional he was..what have we come to here folks? what a sad situation indeed?!?....we are our own worst enemy.....for sure.
hvy 18 wheeler
10th May 2002, 06:26
Have a look over the old vcd's and tell me if you heard the same thing said about the 49'ers that i have heard. They will not stand in the way of any negotiation in the future. Well funny that we have so far had one serious offer put to the committee and yet it was not passed on to the membership, is this not only immoral and unjust but bordering on illegal. If it were 1st degree murder and the D.A was offering manslaughter, would you want to be told that the offer was made or just be told they offered us ZERO!
food for thought.
Whiskery
10th May 2002, 10:31
ironbutt
If the old skipper quits in disgust that's his perogative, but if he quits because the young guy calls him a scab, he's never played aussie rules!
Keep the faith:]
Pontius Pilot
11th May 2002, 11:27
'Union Busting', looks like it.....
But if you are going to talk about support?
Then what about all the people that have shown their support by accepting promotions etc etc etc.....
Seems odd doesnt it...
If you accept a position with this airline as a S/O, then you are a 'SCAB' because you have taken the position of a sacked Captain, which is NOT OK!
BUT if you are an existing F/O, it is ok to fill the vacant slot left by the sacked captain by filling the vacant slot and in turn helping out the company! which is OK!
Union busting tactics or not by the company, I cant help but think that the hire freeze is ' a tad hypocritical'!!!!!
..."a tad hypocritical"...as in keep the new guys out while the upgraders scoop up the gravy.
As this vignette plays out expect the AOA to look even more foolish than they already do, if this is indeed possible.:rolleyes:
shortly
12th May 2002, 02:35
No 411A it's not possible it's most certainly very probable.
ToTheMoon
13th May 2002, 17:46
All this talk of union busting is laughable. The company doesn't have to employ any union busting tactics ... the union members are doing it all by themselves!
Hopefully, the upcoming election will result in someone with common sense and objectivity providing some 'reasoned' leadership to this diminishing group.
Union busting ... right!!!!!
:D :D :D
BuzzyBee
13th May 2002, 21:59
Isn't the definition of a scab a person (or more accurately, a spinless bit of scum) who takes another mans (or womans) job while that other person is either locked out or on strike?
Are the Cathay pilots on strike? No.
Are they locked out? No.
How then can people who join Cathay now be regarded as scabs? They are not taking the jobs of locked out or striking workers.
The hiring ban is doing little to deter people from joining Cathay and those that it does deter are the kind of people that the Union needs on its side, while the less scrupulous will join anyway.
I sympathise with the sacked Cathay pilots, but I think the fact that other Cathay pilots have accepted upgrades to fill the slots has now made the sacked pilots' fight to get their jobs back next to impossible. Good luck.
Well put BuzzyBee. For a complex issue I think you have summed it up perfectly. Now if there was a ban on upgrades however................
Onya:(
Unfortunately for those concerned it is naive to think that pilots will be discouraged from joining CX.
In my experience most Pilots would just about sell their own mothers for a dollar, it's all about me, me, me.
Perhaps we should accept the fact that all vacancies will be filled and concentrate on trying to gain the support of the new recruits.
Calling people disgusting names is counterproductive and unprofessional.
The new hires will come soon enough and badmouthing them will only erode support from them and even from currrent employees
Kaptin M
16th May 2002, 20:53
The question has to be asked, "Which group is seen as the greater of the two threats?" The unemployed ex-airline pilot, or G.A. pilot getting (perhaps) his only shot at airlines, both with young families to support - OR, the Training Captains at CX who process these guys, and later the crews who fly with them?
The "Recruitment Ban" would have some meaning if CX were trying to replace existing crews with direct entry Captains (and perhaps, F/O's capable of being upgraded in a short period) - again, the training would need to be done by current CX TC's.
I don't see Second Officers, nor brand new F/O's for that matter, as a threat to the incumbent pilots - EXCEPT, as has been pointed out by others, as a dilution to the percentage of pilots represented by the AOA.
Like it or not, the spotlight DOES fall directly onto the Training Captains simply because the Second Officer positions WILL be filled.
If the Training Captains are not willing to take some action (or INaction), then are the crews rostered to fly with these newly trained S/O's willing to refuse to fly with them?
The "Recruitment Ban" has been issued - are the CX pilots willing to follow that ban and its further implications RIGHT THROUGH?
If not, then a review is in order, I believe, to stop any erosion of the AOA, and to effectively "check" the company's move by ENLARGING the membership of the HKAOA with the new hires.
shortly
17th May 2002, 09:20
Gott in himmel, donner und blitzen (all I remember from my comic reading days). Kaptin M that part of your post which I understood I agree with! It is completely unreasonable that the focus should be on the training captains. Until this ban is either complete, no upgrades etc, or dispensed with completely then two things: one, the AOA members look like hypocrites and, two there is no way forward. The training captains are in an untenable position and THEIR union should do the right thing.
shortly
18th May 2002, 02:19
Yup the same dinosaur, ostrich etc who feels that video comeras will never and should never be allowed in cockpits to aid accident/incident investigation. Oops, I think I hear the paranoia train approaching. Remember you are not paranoid if everybody really does hate you. Anyway back to what's his name. Doing a great job protecting conditions in the States, now wants to become world policeman. Bit like those Southern Baptist missionaries preaching in Oz - not enough sin at home for them lol.
Aussiefly
21st May 2002, 11:30
Well it does seem to be two sides to each story.
The basic facts remain, CX has shown itself to be a airline to now aspire to if you are only there to take the money and shut up or else well ask now over 70 guys what happens! Or more likely there is a large group of drivers who are dedicated to seeing a stable and fair contract which rewards loyalty and being professional.They are a group that has from 10 to 30 years left in the company and only seek a resolution that will prosper the company as a whole. The biggest worry is why does the company do such despicable underhanded things to a workforce that is so to speak at the sharp end of the buisiness? Ok enough ranting.
It is a fact that if a upgrade ban was put in place the company would immediately bypass the contractual seniority rules and hire direct entry commands(say from the freighter division to start with) combined with a more corrupt selection of "suitable F/Os". They would justify this by the militant HKAOA being out of step with reality. By the time it went to court (years as witnessed by the RP 2001 case) the damage would have already have been done.
Well the reality is ladies and gents is the union remains commited to a fair and just contract for all members, remains commited to the welfare of the 49ers and most importantly will remain commited to keeping a viable union opposing unilateral changes to its members contracts.
I have really tried to keep out of the vile posts from both sides of the coin here but lets face reality, we all have a choice the information is out there please stay informed, support one another and recognise that this is truly an attempt at busting the union.
shortly
21st May 2002, 12:13
A sensible and reasonably fair post. Probably Deified one group and Demonised the other though, pity. I still don't understand the rationale behind the ban, you are willing to take the positions of the 49ers by accepting upgrades etc because the Company would only bypass the union and employ DE captains/FO's or use those despicable freighter low lives to do the same thing. But, you expect young folk on the lowest rung of the ladder to NOT take what would be to them the same thing ie an improvement in their conditions? It doesn't compute and is horribly unfair and selfish, let alone hypocritical. The ban will end up biting the AOA very hard.
hvy 18 wheeler
25th May 2002, 02:03
I have just a few questions myself for all of you!!!!!
Which if any of you are already employed by CX, and in the AOA?
If the answer is any at all then you are helping to disable the situation even further by putting all this caviar in the public arena!
If the answer is none, then i am deeply suspicious, however if it is truly a think tank for non employees of CX trying to either justify what they are about to do or not about to do then you guys are spending a hell of alot of time talking around the same subject!
It is this easy: If you have applied to Cx in the last year or so and they ring you up for an interview and you decline then that is YOUR DOING!
If they ring you up and you accept the interview and you get in, then that is YOUR DOING!
If you join CX under the AOA recruitment ban, then that is YOUR DOING!
If you are already employed in CX and take an upgrade then that is YOUR DOING!
I am sure you could use a little lateral thinking for a second and understand that in any union there is hardly ever a show of 100% confidence in the votes it recieves for a motion of such magnitude as strike etc etc etc......
I believe there is alot of confusion, discontent, missunderstanding etc etc etc out there, for those of you who don't have the CX job yet you are quite happy to slam the ones who do, and for those of you that may have missed out in the past you might still feel a little resentment of the ones who got in and now to you seem to be earning the BIG BUCKS.
If you all spent this much time sending resume's instead of bitching to each other whom most of you will not know, then you would probably be placed in other airlines by now........
Oh but then i forgot..........
If you don't have mates in Virgin Blue then you probably won't get in, and if you don't have mates in most airlines then you won't get in, and if you had any mates in CX then ask them for their opinions and leave it at that!
:confused:
jumpseat
26th May 2002, 06:35
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