Female Pilots

[TDR]

Apparently I posted this on the "Wrong Forum"! IT WAS NOT INTENDED AS A WIND_UP. Well, here goes....

It's nice to see so many female pilots entering into a traditionally male environment.

[DownIn3Green]

What's your point?

PS-why are you shouting...do I detect anger at the moderator or is "Red" coming to visit?

[Southwest]

Yes TDR. It is nice to see more female pilots.

I am glad to hear this is not a windup. Those of us who do sincerely welcome female pilots should feel free to express it.

I make a point of complimenting female pilots when they do a nice job. I think some of them have been the recipients of harsh treatment from closed-minded individuals. I want female pilots to know they are accepted and welcome.

:)

[McD]

TDR - I'm the one who closed your thread on R&N ... sorry if it caused you any offense (none intended). Although it may seem a bit "anal" to distinguish R&N postings from Aircrew Notices, the vast majority of the readership apparently want it that way.

I'm glad to see that your post was not a windup. (There have been many similar threads in the past which were definite wind-ups.)

It's always nice to hear positive comments on this subject. Thank you for re-opening your thread in this forum.


[This message has been edited by McD (edited 18 June 2001).]

[TDR]

Thanks for your comments. I was being as genuine as I could be. It was like having a breath of fresh air in the flight deck this weekend.

[This message has been edited by TDR (edited 18 June 2001).]

[mutt]

I could add to the wind up and say that my employer doesn't employ ANY female pilots, never has and never will...........


Although the wonderful McD was allowed to risk HER arse to save theirs!

Have a good day now....

Mutt :)

[Mr moto]

Empty kitchens, starving children but if it keeps your politically correct conscience clear or pleases the leacherous old dogs, whatever.

If it was an even playing field, I'm sure everyone would be happy but I wonder if Southwest congratulates male pilots when they do a good job. Or is the point that its that rare a female pilot to make a good job?

Surely the hangar rat who finally makes it after 10 years of slogging is more worthy of praise than some Nigella who's had just 'a little' help from daddy!

(Thinks,"I'm going to get a handbagging for this!")

[Southwest]

Mr moto,

Do you really want to talk about an even playing field? I think you are forgetting how long women have been kept off the playing field. Have you given that any consideration? Is equality only an issue for you when you feel it is being denied you and unimportant when you deny it to others?

I do compliment male pilots when they do a nice job. But as I said, I make a point of complimenting female pilots because of the bad treatment they get from some people. I think the majority accepts female pilots but they are a silent majority.

I came up the hard way. I’ve sold my blood for $8 to get a meal and I’ve gone hungry. I know all about being a “hangar rat”, slogging it up for 10 years and some. I don’t begrudge anyone who gets help. I especially don’t begrudge it for females because they have to overcome gender discrimination. When the number of female pilots who get help from daddy exceeds the number of male pilots who’ve gotten the same help let me know.

Maybe I see this differently because my wife works in a male dominated field. I’ve seen the things she has to put up with for twenty-two years. And I don’t think my daughter should have to go through her life like that.

Maybe it was seeing a male passenger loudly complain and refuse to get on the flight when he saw a female pilot. How would you like that if the shoe was on the other foot. And she was every bit as good as the males I fly with.

I’ll leave you with what my 17-year-old son says when he sees gender discrimination, “Do you think he’s compensating for something?”

[McD]

Mutt - your post brought back some hilarious memories of my time in that particular country, especially the experiences with ATC. Most of the time, things went along just fine, but on occasion, I would get one of these two reactions: 1) "calling XXX, say again", or 2) dead silence. The first type of response was because (according to a friend of mine who worked with the local controllers) some of them liked hearing a woman's voice so much that they made us repeat everything, even if they had heard it clearly the first time! And of course we all know the reason for the second type of response.

To be fair, though, most of the people (military and civilian) were very professional, and nice to me as well, and I wouldn't trade the experience for anything. However, it certainly opened my eyes!

TDR - Your thread has made me realize something ... even though female pilot issues have become "old news" to me, I see now that for other people, it may not be old news at all.

It's sad when people assume the worst in someone, based on their own misguided stereotypes. Thankfully, though, the vast majority of pilots I've ever worked with are people who are much more level-headed, and their only concern is job performance, not gender.

[This message has been edited by McD (edited 19 June 2001).]

[TDR]

Mr Moto.
You mentioned kitchens and starving children. What's wrong with the male partner carrying out these roles? My wife and I share the house-hold chores.

Why do we have to stereotype gender into positions in life? If someone is capable of doing as job they should be given as much encouragement as possible.

I noticed a couple of comments about "Daddy helping his little girl"! I'd put money on the fact that Daddy also helps his little boy!

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

In my years of flying (and being a hangar rat) I have never been treated any differently from the boys by colleagues, employers, students etc. Maybe I've just been lucky, (or incredibly insensitive!)Passengers occasionally, I've been asked to "make coffee luv while we wait for the real pilot to arrive", but a bit of humour is all that's needed to sort out misunderstandings there. No need to prove anything just get the job done right.

But I must confess to finding people (usually from outside aviation)saying "you've done so well..for a girl" rather patronising. I haven't done anything spectacular, just got on with it like all the other guys and girls. It's not as if it's heavy physical work, so what's the big deal?

Having said all that I have come across some women who were treated with contempt and/or ridicule but sorry sisters, that's what happens if you act like a prima donna.



[This message has been edited by Charlie Foxtrot India (edited 19 June 2001).]

[I'd rather]

I'm concerned to hear that men are incapable of cleaning a kitchen or feeding children. If that is indeed the case, should we trust them with a complicated task like flying an aircraft?

[Mr moto]

Charlie Fox India made the point I wanted to hear. "What's the big deal?"

Making a point of the difference between men and women does nothing for the cause of equality. Political correctness so often results in the ridiculing of the groups it sets out to protect.

Qualifications, ability, suitability.

All my respect goes out to a female colleague who turned down a press event featuring the company's first all female crew.

And if anyone has me down as a chauvinistic tyrant, I'm with Kipling. "The female of HER species is more deadly than the male!"

[Doctor Cruces]

You know, a thread like this really brings out the dinosaurs, does it not?

Most women are not as strong as most men.

Therin ends the difference professionally speaking.

When men in every industry (not just ours) accept this we will be getting somewhere.

Doc C.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

One thing that surprises me is that "female pilots" should be an issue at all. The whole world was male dominated in all professions until WW2 changed everything, but even before that we had the likes of Amy Johnson, Amelia Earhart, Beryl Markham and co doing what most people wouldn't dream of doing these days without all the latest GPS technology. During WW2 the (often forgotten) Air Transport Auxiliary ladies were out there positioning the RAF fighter planes, which were often in a very sorry state of repair.
So nowadays there is no reason why women doing any job at all should surprise people.

[Pandora]

If you read Beryl Markham's biography it says that until the WW2 one third of all licence holders were women, it makes you wonder why only 6% of PPL and 2% of CPL/ATPL holders today are women.
In a professional caqpacity have only ever had one derogatory comment and that was from a passenger.
Oh, and Dr Cruces, it is a well known fact that women have greater stamina than men and until we all realise that there probably won't be enough women on the long haul flight deck. Go back to your cave doc, in the modern airliner strength is not an issue.

[Mr moto]

Pandora.
I think you misunderstood the docs' meaning, that being that not ALL men are stronger than ALL women. And that was his only comment on the issue.

Refresh my mind, would you. How long did those three women last on the Royal Marine commando course with their greater stamina?

And then there is the genetics to be discussed. It is suspected that the price men pay for a better mechanical understanding is autism. That's why 9 out of 10 autistic children are male.

[NoseGear]

Mr Moto, I have just read your comments, are you for real? Or are you just winding others up? Suspect it might be the latter or you suffer severely from an inferiority complex. My wife and I both fly, she is a CCQ First Officer with Cathay Pacific, has been flying for 10 years prior to getting on with CX, and she has done it alot harder than I ever did prior to getting her break. I suggest you talk to her if you want your attitude sorted out about female pilots. She constantly amazes me with her ability, and her technical knowlegde. By the way, CCQ means Cross-Crew Qaulification, on the A340 and A330, just in case your autisim gets in the way of understanding what that means.

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To an F16 with engine trouble, "You're number 2 behind the B52 with one engine shut down." Reply "Oh no, not the dreaded 7 engine approach!"

[TowerDog]

Been there, done that:
Married a female pilot 16 years ago, then divorced her 4 years later.

Not very impressed.

Some of the girls I have met in the cockpit has certainly impressed, but some have not.
(Like male ones I guess)

Worked for a female chief pilot in Alaska many years ago, she did get my attention:
Pretty AND smart...

Are ya out there on PPRuNe Kim Goodman?
Give me a shout.

[email protected]



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Men, this is no drill...

[mwashi]

It is indeed good to see more female pilots.

Unfortunately, it is not very easy for us. So many of us have admired the blue skies but only the few of us has made it.
Most women who act like tomb boys or dykes seems to be treated better and easely accepted as well. For the rest of us, we have to work twice as hard to prove ourselves.
I learned my lessons early enough. I was an FAA certified Airframe and Powerplant technician before I got my pilot certificates. At first, nobody wanted to hire me as an aircraft maintenance engineer, even when I finally got hired, my workmates didn't want me there, and they bet I wasn't going to last 90 days. I was the first female tech they ever have, and I still do share locker room with the men.
They said and did discouraging things to me. I am only 5'7" weigh 125 Lbs but I had to lift a 200 lbs main landing gear tire by myself just because I choose that proffesion. I would go home after work and cry for hours but I couldn't afford to complain or quit because this job paid good enough to fund my flight training.
I knew if I wanted to keep my job, I had to turn every negative situation into a learning experience.
And now, 2 years later, not only that I own a set of pink screw drivers but I am also one of the fastest, efficient, and I train new hires on various aircraft maintenance. All that weight lifting has given me the best lean body, and the guys are my best friends. They even invite me on their social gatherings. They have also just reveal to me that some of the guys had bet on who was going to bed me first. So far, none of them yet. I joke with them that they can look but they can't touch.I also deal with pilots on daily basis, they also respect me as well. This December I will be graduating with my bachelor degree in Airline Administration and enough flying hours to switch from maintenance to flight. In short, we have to work hard at first but at the end we will be happy campers. I wouldn't trade my experience for anything because they made me a strong individual that I am today. I am sure dealing with one male co-pilot would be nothing compare to 12 Michigan rednecks at once.

[windsock7]

The great thing about female pilots is,
Once we are established in the cruise autopilot engaged.
The little lovelies can get their dusters out and clean up a bit. Nice!!

[Basil]

I don't really care whether I'm flying with a female, ethnic minority or whatever other non-WASP one can think of.
What matters is:
a) Can they do the job and be reasonably agreeable on the flight deck?
b) Do they go out for a beer afterwards? (secondary consideration subject to their personal wishes, of course) Had one lass regale me with her gyno probs http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif as I fervently wished for CC female or gay male to field the Ahhh sympathy bit http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/confused.gif

[mad_jock]

The other advantage of female pilots is they don't stink half as bad as blokes do after a sweaty 10hrs. And generally they don't think it's amusing to fart and don't do it so often either.

MJ

[airforcenone]

Having been trained with female pilots from the beginning and not knowing any different, it has been pretty clear that you get good ones and useless ones, exactly the same as the blokes!!

Not entirely sure what all the fuss is about considering the history (Amy Johnson et al)!

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Helpmyspacebarisbust....

[fly4fud]

Ok, sensing how steep this slope is, I didn't want to join in. But, I found a grain of salt in my way and here it goes:

Girls in the cockpit? Well, for a starter, I feel most of them have a problem. They know they are judged and observed. Therefore the first attitude of a women pilot is to be defensive or even agressive. I have yet to find a women that "acts" normaly when seated in a flying machine ;)

In my >20 years of private or professional flying, I have met quite a few male pilots that impressed me. Their decision making, situation awareness, leadership or handling were really outstanding. I have yet to meet a flying gal leaving me in awe, at least flyinwise :)

Oh well, it is probably ME that has a negative attitude towards the gender :)

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... cut my wings and I'll die ...

[Pandora]

Fly4fud,
poor little boy! What are you doing to make all of those lovely girls aggressive? I can only speak for myself (I don't fly with other girls, there is only one on my fleet who sits in the other seat and our paths have not yet crossed,) but each time I have been sim checked/route checked etc, there is one word that is always mentioned - supportive. Aggressive and defensive have not yet popped up. I do know the occassional aggressive woman pilot, but most of them are out there to enjoy their careers doing something they love with others who appreciate their enthusiasm for flying, and I have known a greater number of aggressive men pilots.
I have found that the only things that can dampen a great desire to fly for a living are people in the other seat who are on a mission to make your life hell. Like the ones who say you are only here because you've got tits, for example. Turning to them and saying, no I'm only here because I passed the written exams, the flying exams, the job interview, the medical and the type rating course seems to do no good. You still get people who say women are defensive witches taking mens' jobs by fluttering their eyelashes at the examiner/interviewer, and that we are only there to fill the quota anyway.
It makes me sad. It also makes me look forward to flying with the pilots who are true professionals, and make my job a job I look forward to doing each day. Fly4 fud, if I ever fly with you, don't put up your anti-harridan shields. If you do I won't get out the little screen wipe thingies to clean your instruments, and I certainly won't get out my sweetie box to share my choccies with you.

[TowerDog]

Pandora:

Uh, yeah: You are pretty much right, but there are some of your sisters out there that got the job because of great performance
flapping their eye lashes and such.

Remember: "Good girls go to Heaven, bad girls go Places".

To change that, lets have 50 percent of the airlines operated and crewed by females:
It is up to ya girls: Go and do it, no restrictions...Hire all the bimbos.


Some old captain I flew with years ago said: Girl pilots can be good and they can be bad, but if they are bad, they are really bad.

Before ya jump on my conservative bones:

I have as much experience with girl pilots as any other guy out there: Do enjoy most of them, and most work hard and and do a good job.
(If things went to sh......t, I would like to have a competent female in the right seat, or the back seat, sure enough.
But if she got the job because she had nice
mamal glands, I would rather have Mr. Ugly over there....


And oh, how many female flyers got the job these days because the slept with the boss or because they were a "Minority"?


Not many, but even if a few did: Way too many.

Cheers

Dino TowerDog.


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Men, this is no drill...

[Line Abreast]

Ever notice how women are called 'female pilots', yet men are just called 'pilots'?!

[Pandora]

Line Abreast,
read my post again.

[fly4fud]

Pandora, no hard feelings. Rest assured that despite my writings, I will continue to give a clean sheet of paper to every women pilot I am gonna fly with. And I'm still ready to believe I was just plain unlucky.

Take care ;)

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... cut my wings and I'll die ...

[Mr moto]

Nose gear.
Calling me autistic is fighting talk where I come from! You're lucky though, I've moved.

If you read (and understood) my comments you will find they actually are respectful of women.

I,unfortunately, can find neither the thread with male/female accident types nor the report on autism and was hoping someone else would have some knowledge of them.

Shame that, it could have been a fun debate but not with all the PC around!

[Pandora]

Mr Moto,

any debate you wish to start on the genetic aspects of the human mind versus human body is welcome.

At this point in my post I apologise for getting a bit serious and anyone who just wanted to have a dig at anyone else on the basis of what the keep in their trousers should probably just ignore my rant.

Back to Mr Moto. I suspect that you are already reasonably familiar with the weaknesses of the XY chromosome arrangement in comparison to the stronger XX chromosome. True, it means that the female brain is constructed in a slightly different way to the male brain, resulting in a slight initial spatial disadvantage. However the differences between the male and female brain are not that much greater than the differences between left-handed and right-handed brains. It has been conclusively shown that differences in spatial ability btween men and women (and indeed left and right-handed people) can be minimised with practise. After all right-handed people who have their right arm amputated can learn to write with their left hand. So women will have to work harder to start with at technical subjects, and men will have to work harder in the topics that women have a natural advantage in, such as communication skills. With training and practise, however, both sexes should be able to function quite competently in the same environment.
So there is the psychology bit over and done with. Next onto genetics, a subject I studied at university but, alas, not to as high a level as neuroscience. You mentioned that the incidence of autism is higher in men than in women. This is true for many genetic abnormalities including cystic fibrosis, autism, colour blindness and a whole stack of other really weird and wonderful diseases. the reason for this is that men have their extra little dangly bits on the outside of their bodies, whereas women have theirs where they can't be seen - on their sex chromosomes. In the male sex chromosome Y, any abnormalities present are not masked by the X chromosome and manifest themselves as physical symptoms. In womens' sex chromosomes, each X is masked by another dominant X and this makes it impossible for the symptoms to manifest themselves. However women can be carriers of a defective gene which when paired with a defective gene from a male carrier can result in female babies being born with congenital conditions such as autism.
In the grand scheme of things it is not important if nature loses a few males along the way because the important job of getting pregnant and giving birth is done by the female of the species. It was intended that in evolutionary terms the females would require the extra lifespan, stamina and resistance to disease to ensure that their offspring reached an age where they could exist on their own. Of course now we all live longer, and have started to find other things to do with our time. Men have stopped building nests, catching food and shagging till they dropped down dead, and women have stopped popping babies out till they are shrivelled-up little prunes. We have the extra life time to do other things, like getting jobs, and then arguing about who's jobs they were to start with, and who is better at them and why.
So there is some background info to the good old male/female argument. Do with it what you will.

[TowerDog]

Pandora:

Yes, the X and Y hormones and all that is great.

Lack of common sense is however an occasional problem with some female pilots I have known:

Remember the Cessan Caravan (C-208): When them machines first came out there was a great PR thing about Fed-Ex buying the lot, and they were big time utility planes made for the over-night freight business, etc.

Wrong: A small firm I worked for bought the first Caravan: A woman pilot who cried on my shoulder a few months earlier, as she had crashed a C-207 attempting a down wind take- off on a short dirt strip with a pay-load onboard, did crash that first Caravan: Killed herself and a couple of pax as the motor stopped after T/O due to fuel starvation.

Sad story and for sure, but one of the reasons this female pilot was employed in the first place was that we had a female chief pilot, and she of course hired one of the sisters.

My ex-wife was also a pilot and she did some stuff that surprised me: She was busy flying the book, as she was thought, not the airplane. (The book is always right, therefore ya shall need no talents or instincts as to what is right or wrong.)

As I stated in the first posting: Not too impressed, yet some are good and motived from a proffesional stand point, and not out there to write history books and prove the gender.

Just don't come out and make belive that all them females are not only just as good, but had to work twice as hard to get there.

Uh, what is my point: Bad apples out there as far as both sexes for sure, yet percentage-wise, perhaps the males are not
looking too bad:

Just remember Ms. Female Eastern scab Value Jet Captain in the Everglades.
She did not impress this male TowerDog, regardless of her Y or X hormones being in the right or wrong place.

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Men, this is no drill...

[Steepclimb]

I've said this before, there is no such thing a male or female pilots. On the flight deck there are only pilots.
You can't escape society's attitudes, but on the flight deck professionalism should be the key.
It's obvious that one or two men on this thread, the obvious characters,simply do not like womem flying. They are careful in what they say but their emphasis is on the negative aspects of the women they knew and flew with.
It's men like that who cause women to appear defensive and causes untold anguish.
I wonder how you manage to live in this world, where half the population is female. It must be tough for you.
You're pathetic.


[This message has been edited by Steepclimb (edited 28 June 2001).]

[noportopen]

Last week, a B757 arrived in Boston. -Nothing unusual about that, except the combination of the crew. Two young, good looking and smart girls in the front and the entire cabin crew of five were males...

[Mr moto]

Thanks Pandora, excellent post. Kipling is hereby proved correct.

Just wanted to move the debate along from us paying for our ancestors' injustices as Southwest seems to be.

The problem as you've pointed out is the training out of the initial disadvantage. It is also illustrated in the report, it here on ACN a couple of weeks ago, about accidents versus gender.
If memory serves, men take risks and get caught pushing their luck whilst women screw up mostly with fairly basic handling type accidents but without taking the same chances. The worrying thing is that only a tiny fraction of the licence holders were women!

The solution would perhaps, rather controversially, be a flight deck crew of mixed gender. A woman to make sure no risks are taken and a man to do the flying.

Seriously though, it does go back to the interest and effort put in by the individual and by the training they receive regardless of gender.
It's the difference between drivers, pilots and artists.

And back to the even playing field from the other perspective. Must feel awfully hollow, getting a job to fill up the numbers rather than being the best applicant!

[Pandora]

Towerdog,
I think we will have to agree to differ on the whole subject of gender. A little common sense and the ability to read, understand and mentally digest an intelligent scientific debate would of course made you realise that the first sentence of you post is tosh. I was discussing the X and Y chromosomes, not hormones. I did not even mention hormones, as that is a subject that is too often misinterpreted by men, although I can give you a lesson on endocrinology next, having got the genetics and psychology out of the way.
As for pilots crashing aircraft and killing themselves and their pax, I could go on all day about the daft things men have done which result in bent metal and dead people.

Mr Moto,

I read the same article, but I can't remember where. One of the points that was brought up was that although with women the major problem was handling (as opposed to bad decision making, which was male pilots' major fault), the study was not conclusive enough to prove that women have worse handling skills than men. Due to the fact that women have only been flying jets for the airlines in any number recently, it was postulated that the relative inexperience of the women flight crew may have played a part in the accidents they were involved in. I believe one of the conclusions was that a comparison should be made of accidents caused by men and women of a similar experience level in order to establish whether the original conclusion was true.

Next I'll learn to spell...

[This message has been edited by Pandora (edited 29 June 2001).]

[con-pilot]

Tower Dog, I was not going to enter into this thread but you have forced me into it.

Your comment about "Ms. Female Eastern scab Value Jet Captain" is uncalled for and shows pure ignorance. I guess the two male AA pilots that flew into the mountains in Columbia really impressed you?

Why don't you read the accident report and listen to the CVR tape? There is doubt in my mind, or any other professional pilot that I have talked to, that the airplane was doomed. No honest pro-pilot really believes that if they were flying the airplane the results would be any different. She turned around as soon as she realized how serious the situation was and if you would read accident reports on similar accidents, she did it quicker than most. They even tried to divert to the closest runway, not go all the way back to MIA. Which wasn't that far by the way. No, you stuck your foot in your mouth on this one.

You can ask McD how I feel about female pilots. I've flown with them and I've hired them.

By the way, I am not PC, never have been never will be. I just give everybody a square shake (even chance).

[TowerDog]

Con Pilot:

Not really impressed with the 2 male pilots that met the mountain in Cali...Duh..

As for the Value-Jet crash: Not wanting to play Monday Morning quarterback, but uh, the first thing you do if faced with a cockpit or cabin fire/smoke situation: Put the oxygen mask on. If the plane was doomed or not, you don't know till the last minute and ya don't ignore the mask. Or do you Con Pilot?

If you still don't understand: Try to read a Check List, then call me back.

I don't think gender was involved in the decision to ignore the procedures and common sense, but if the captain was hired because of no quals: (Eastern scab, then VJ Pay for Training, then the female factor: Less hours and experience needed than any male, etc: Perhaps the whole mix was/is bad news?)

Pandora:

Yup, I screwed up as far as hormones and X/Y
chromosones.
(Not stupid, just drunken sailor)
Mea culpa.

Female pilots are as good or as bad as any males....Duh..
If SC or whoever does not understand, uh just read the postings over again and try not to move your lips: It is really simple:

I ain't bashing no girl pilots: They as a group are good, have less time and get better jobs than white males.

(It is called preferrential hiring or politically correct or Goverment Mandated and all that, fine, but uh I don't think they are better, or wiser or any worse: Just lucky to be the right sex in the flying business these days: Heck if ya were a Black Female Pilot, ya really had it made: Bullet proof, Fire Proof, etc..)

And again: I have worked with some fine gals:
One B-747 captain with Evergreen. She sure got the job because of heavy quals and hard work: My hat off.
Way to go Linda and others like you.

Those gals that got an easy ride, rich daddy and all that, and said they had to work twice as hard to be twice as good, hmm, I flew with some of ya, and was not very impressed....
Other gals however were great, just don't glorify because of gender.



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Men, this is no drill...

[This message has been edited by TowerDog (edited 30 June 2001).]

[Metro man]

Heard a case of PMT from a controller the other day.You could tell from her voice that things were getting to her , when some insensitive male pilot complained about her transmissions ,to which she snapped back "YOU ARE OVERHEAD THE TRANSMITTER AT THE MOMENT ,IT WILL IMPROOOOVE ! " How do you cope with this for 10 hours ?

I will say though that I have been impressed with most of the female pilots I have flown with ,and admire their determination.

Prehaps CRM should include sensitivity training.

[Avman]

Personally, as long as they don't have to reverse into the gate/stand, I don't see any problems with lady aeroplane drivers :). Must say that we have lots of very good lady controllers where I work.

[pulse1]

Article in "Todays Pilot" refers to a report published by John Hopkins University - male and female pilots crash for different reasons.

Civil and military accidents between 1983 and 1997 involving 144 female and 287 male pilots showed that "Males tend to trade accuracy for speed... they would rather do something faster even if they don't do it accurately. Women tend to be more cautious and pay greater attention to the rules". According to the report, crashes involving female pilots are mostly due to mishandling of the aircraft while male pilots are more likely to crash because of flawed decision making.

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"If you keep doing what you've always done, you will keep getting what you've always got"

[Final 3 Greens]

I don't believe some of the postings on this thread.

Let's get some clarity....

All of us, male or female come with our own cocktail of "human factors" that give us an individual profile.

Hopefully the training, certification and ongoing check system ensures that the unique package we each bring falls within the boundaries of safe aviating.

As the social scientist Jaspars once concluded, the more experimentation with groups of people, the less certain the outcome, so basically you can take the stats and make any argument work to a large extent - SO WHY BOTHER?

Male or female, so long as the flight deck crew are well qualified, current and motivated they will make me feel safe.

[This message has been edited by Final 3 Greens (edited 05 July 2001).]

[BEagle]

A while ago I used to train ab-initio pilots and came to the conclusion that there were no such things as 'average' lady pilots. Why? Because if you told one that her flight had rated an average assessment, then she'd usually try to do better - whereas if you told a bloke his trip was 'average' then he'd settle for 'good enough' and slope off to the pub with his mates! And the ladies would help eachother when it came to learning checklists etc.

Very, very few lady students were truly awful - but they'd had the strength of character to give it a go. Whereas the equivalent bloke would have never bothered even trying to do better.

I have found, however, that lady student pilots were rather more prone to struggle if they had an unreasonable instructor. I inherited at least a couple who had been flying with an insructor who didn't believe in lady aircrew - but given a chance to show that they could do the job, they both did OK!

Still remember a lady DanDare pilot getting her pax home during a Spanish ATC strike by calling their bluff and accepting a cruise level of FL 170 for her '707!!

[keep_pushing]

Someone mentioned earlier that the female percentage of Professional Pilots in the UK was around 3%. Will someone please explain why it is that with all of the (illegal) positive discrimination, favourable treatment, extra training, etc that well have all seen go on, the percentage still so low?
Incidentally, examples from the US are worthless, as anyone with even a basic knowledge of affirmative action programmes will testify.

[Buffy Summers]

Wow! So many views, yet another thread about female pilots (why?).
Pandora, I have to say that I agree with pretty much everything you have said.
There are a number of things which have come up over the last 3 pages to which I might throw in a few comments.
c3% of ATPL holders are women. c2% of pilots in UK airlines are female. So if all these airlines are giving preference to women applicants, why isn't this percentage higher?
Can anyone name a single UK airline that gives unfair preference to female applicants?
The airline I work for still rarely recognises its female pilots. They have yet to introduce uniforms for female pilots (we wear the men's fit), and I still get memos, e-mails etc. addressed "dear gentlemen". I guess I should assume they don't apply to me then :)
It has been shown that women are better at multi tasking than men (probably comes from all that cooking practice, eh? :) )
As for accidents, well let's see, there was an example quoted saying that women always go by the rules not common sense. Recently I was reading about one of the early Comet crashes, the pilot could have got airborne had he thought, but he stuck rigidly to the rules and ran off the runway.
Just one example maybe, but there are loads more.
One recent one that springs to mind - two male pilots take off and discover they cannot raise the gear. They decide to continue to another airport, some distance away. Part way through the flight they realise they are using quite a bit of fuel. Instead of landing at the airport that they are close to they decide to fly over a mountainous area to another airport. The aircraft runs out of fuel, the pilots just manage, by luck, to glide it to an airport and by some miracle no one is killed. The two pilots sat there, watching the fuel flow out, and didn't think that maybe the aircraft would use more fuel with gear down than without. Now, imagine if that had been two female pilots. They would have been seriously bombarded with insults from the general public, newspapers and pilot community in general. But of course they were male. It didn't even make the papers.
It is difficult to compare women pilots against male pilots. Everyone is different. Everyone has different strengths and weaknesses. Some men are particularly good at communication. Some women are particularly good at flying.
The only time rubbish like hormones, strength, women drivers, etc. comes up is when men bring it up in forums like this one.
Maybe I am lucky but 99% of the Captains I fly with are great, we get on really well, they have no qualms about letting me get on with flying the airplane and making decisions and they tell me that they like to fly with me.
I also fly as part of an all female crew fairly regularly and we get no end of !!!!! from passengers. We put up with this on a daily basis. Considering I am as qualified as a male pilot, I went through a selection process, in which I beat 96 male applicants, purely on my own ability, I pass my 6 monthly checks with no problems, and did my training in the minimum time, I think it is unfair that passengers constantly question my ability and my "right" to be in the flightdeck based on my gender.
That is the one thing you chaps out there are lucky to not have to deal with every day at work.
Of course, I am always diplomatic and polite, even when they are being downright rude to me. I feel it is their ignorance that is the problem, not mine.
We don't have it any easier or any harder than men.
So why do we need threads like this one?

[stagger]

Pandora wrote...

"It has been conclusively shown that differences in spatial ability between men and women (and indeed left and right-handed people) can be minimised with practise."

It is indeed true that the magnitude of the sex difference in average performance on certain tests of spatial ability can be reduced by practice. However, generally the difference cannot be totally eliminated - and there's the whole issue of differential sensitivity to practice effects as well.

The bottom line is that there are robust and well-documented sex differences in performance on certain tests of spatial ability - some favouring men (e.g. mental rotation), some favouring women (e.g. location memory). However, it’s not clear what implications these differences have for modern aviation.

One thing that’s very important to bear in mind is that for most tests the performance distributions for males and female overlap considerably. For example, for mental rotation a substantial proportion of women perform better than the male average – often about 30%. I would expect that the majority of female pilots would fall into this group.

I’ve actually done some research in this area myself (I’m a psychologist) and found an extraordinary amount of variation among females in performance on a 3D mental rotation tests. Females were more variable in their performance than males – which is unusual since males are the more variable sex in most other cognitive domains.

[Capt EFIS]

I must say that I do not care if I am sitting next to a Male or Female on the flight deck. As long as they are qualified and meet the standards that are required for the position.

If they do not meet these standards (male or female) then they should not be there.

I do get a little annoyed with companies that have a quota system and require a certain percentage of their pilots to be a specific gender. This is causing companies to lower their standards just to meet numbers, this should not happen.

[Max Angle]

I seems amazing that in 2001 we are even having this debate, I would have thought that by now it is not even an issue. It is quite correct that are very few women compared to men in airline flightdecks, there are I think two reasons for this.

Firstly it is only in the last 10-15 years that women have started to overcome the prejudice, built up over many years, that certain jobs are only suitable for men. As far as flying is concerned this has probably never been true but society takes a long time to change and to accept new ideas.

Secondly, it may be that flying is a job that not very many women WANT to do. We are different after all. There are lots of jobs that more women prefer to do than men and vice versa, nothing sexist about that, as I said we are different.

We have a lot of lady pilots in our company now and I really don't give it a second thought anymore. Some of the women I have flown with are first rate pilots in every way, most are very good and one or two are pretty poor. In other words EXACTLY the same as the cross section of male pilots, there is no difference.

So come on, the debate is over, women on the flightdeck are here to stay and quite right to. Lets just get on with the job!.

[ 15 July 2001: Message edited by: Max Angle ]

[ScottishBurd]

Well said,Max,well said.At the end of the day we're all here because we love flying.I also love to be with people who love flying,whether they're male/female/whatever.They ALL have something to contribute.Never had 'spatial ability' problems personally,although I'd admit to being crap at starting up fuel bowsers & being so short I've needed a booster cushion on occasion..Oh and been slightly distracted by the beauty of handsome fellow flyers,but that's another thing...
Keep safe. y'all!
Ali (NOT Alastair,Alan,Alex or Albert as usually presumed..)

[Harry Wragg]

So how many pilots, male or female have a male au pair or child minder? Would you be comfortable with that?

Horses for courses, the debate will never end until there is only one sex!. Just a thought.

Harry

[How's it Hanging]

As others have said ,I don't care who I fly with, as I have flown with quite a few females who are more efficient at their occupation than some of the males I have flown with.(not to mention easier on the optic nerve!)
In the past a female pilot may have been a novelty,and having spoken to pilots who flew many of the older airline aicraft, this may have been that a certain amount of physical strength was required in certain situations. This is not much of a requirement today.
What I do object to is the attitudes of some airlines, through political correctness/ minority views on equal opportunity, or whatever you want to call it, not giving the best candidates, regardless of gender, positions available.
They try to deny this happens, but I know at least one Australian airline (with white and red aircraft), that used to contact female pilots who had not applied to them, and ask them why they had not applied and when they were going to apply. This comes from pilots who have been contacted.
Male pilots have never been contacted and asked the same questions! :rolleyes:

[Mr Benn]

Given that the only airline I know of in the UK that has at least 3% women amongst its pilots (3%of ATPLers are female so lets say thats the figure) is British Airways, why are so many people harping on about this favouritism to women? There may be one or two per country but I think it more than balances out when you consider that there are more than one or two airlines per country who discriminate against women.
So anyway, as someone asked previously, lets have a list of those airlines who favour women and therefore, by definition, must have more than 3% of its pilots who are female.

[Whirlybird]

I just don't believe this! Every couple of months or so, we have a thread on PPRuNe called women pilots, female pilots, or something similar. Every time, the same old arguments get trotted out, the same old prejudices get aired. What is all this crap? Women have been flying since 1912. Flying requires hands, feet, eyes, co-ordination, and an ability to make decisions, not a willy and a particular set of chromosomes. (I sometimes wonder if an extra appendage might be useful in a helicopter, mind you, but I think it's a third hand I need really :D ). This just shouldn't even be a subject that needs discussing.

[ScottishBurd]

ME TOO!SICK AND BLOODY TIRED OF IT.YES,I HAVE T*TS.NO THEY DON'T GET IN THE WAY OF'FULL & FREE MOVEMENT OF THE CONTROL COLUMN'.YES,I CAN PARK AN AIRCRAFT & NO I DON'T NEED ANY HELP TO DO IT.YES WE DO FLY WHEN WE'VE GOT A PERIOD (HOW ANYONE CAN BE SO RUDE AS TO EVEN ASK THIS DEFIES BELIEF).NO,WE DON'T HAVE REAR VIEW MIRRORS TO PUT OUR MAKEUP ON WITH.NO,WE DON'T HAVE A SPACE IN THE COCKPIT TO PUT OUR HANDBAGS IN.NO,I'M NOT HERE TO 'MAKE UP THE NUMBERS'.I'M HERE BECAUSE I LOVE FLYING & BECAUSE I DAMN WELL CAN !!!AND I'D BE A HELL OF A LOT HAPPIER IF I COULD DO IT IN PEACE FROM IDIOTS WHO THINK I ONLY DO IT SO I CAN MEET A NICE PILOT HUSBAND!!!BUGGER OFF & LEAVE US ALONE!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:
Aaaah....that's better.. :p

[McD]

I'm glad you feel better, ScottishBurd ;) :D

Just remember ... TDR initially started this thread to express genuine support of women pilots.

Of course, no matter the intent, these types of threads bring out the worst in some people.

Don't let the goofballs get to you, because they are in fact the ignorant ones. Just let your own performance and professionalism take precedence, and you will soon find that the silly comments stop (or you can at least laugh at them) without going on a crusade.

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: McD ]

[mwashi]

Good job ScottishBurd :)

I have few words to add to those who give us a hard time.

I FELL IN LOVE WITH FLYING EVER SINCE I WAS 4 YEARS OLD. AND YES, WHEN I TOLD MY FATHER ABOUT IT, HE GAVE ME A 737 TOY FOR MY 5TH BIRTHDAY. I HAD NO IDEA OF MAKING NUMBERS FOR WOMEN PILOTS THEN.
AND NO, I DON'T PREFER A PILOT HUSBAND ALTHOUGH SOME OF THEM MAKE MY MOUTH WATERLY.
IN SHORT, IT'S NOT ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE BUT THE LOVE OF FLYING.
SO ALL OF YOU FEMALE PILOT BASHERS, PLEASE LEAVE US ALONE :mad:

[Metro man]

Yes dear ,of course you are right ,anything you say dear.I think I'll just go and take the dog for a walk .I'll be back in an hour or two.(when you've calmed down a bit)

[TDR]

McD (And others)
You are correct. I did originally post this in support of female pilots.
This has stimulated a heated debate with positive and negative comments. I am, however suprised in todays society that so amny people have a problem with this issue.

Imagine this..if I had changed the wording slightly..how about "Isn't it nice to see so many "Ethnic" pilots flying aircraft"

Would I now be branded a rasist for even daring to have such thoughts? (I don't have a problem with race, colour, creed or sexual orientation.

Note to the administrators; feel free to close this thread, I feel it's run it's course.

[Pilot Barbie]

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

.... Awwwwwwwwww, it just aint the same without Captain Ed :(

[DX Wombat]

Comment from a passenger's point of view: Best landing experienced so far was at MAN. BA flight from FRA 8/1/01, the pilot was (I think I have the name right, sorry if I haven't but you know who you are) Cathy MacDonald who was also the captain. A grotty, wet, windy day and a wonderfully smooth landing.Long may she continue to fly. Worst, a flying kangaroo at SIN, I won't say when. A lovely dry day, no wind worth mentioning (I was looking out of the window and none of the vegetation was so much as waving gently in the breeze) and HE fairly planted it on the runway followed, it seemed, by a tour of every single pot hole in the runway and the creation of a few new ones. Even the cabin crew were a little startled. Guess who I would rather fly with? :rolleyes: It certainly isn't him. Keep up the good work girls and boys. I'm happy with pilots of either gender just as long as they get me safely to my destination. I wonder if the lads are feeling a little nervous in case, once the proportions of M:F pilots evens out, they find that, just as in driving, the girls are actually better than the boys? ;) :D :D

[DX Wombat]

I've just had another thought (I must be sickening for something) Not too long ago, but before the advent of computers, we had the same crazy carry-on about lady doctors and now look at things. Most Doctors practices wouldn't be without their female partners and see them as a real assett. Keep going girls, you're in good company. :D :D :D Hey, look at that! Ive just made the century! It must be becoming an addicted PPRuNer that has affected me. I'L have to watch it!
:D

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: DX Wombat ]

[Pilot Barbie]

Thanks for those erudite insights Mr Wombat: everyone knows that pax can easily judge the safety and efficency of the whole flight by the bump upon landing.

Hey, and doctors practices happily putting up with their female colleagues... yup, we sure have a lot to be grateful for. :rolleyes:

[DX Wombat]

Mr Pliot Barbie,my comments on the landings were really only meant to convey the fact that I am very happy to be flown by a pilot of either gender rather than as a comment on the safety of the flight as a whole. Both of them got me there safely and that is all that really matters but I do know I prefer a nice smooth landing to one where I am thrown around somewhat and that one at MAN after a long, and for once, sleepless flight, was a pleasant note to finish on. :)

[Whirlybird]

TDR,

I think we all know you meant well, and no-one's branding you as sexist (at least I'm not). But I sighed inwardly on reading your first post; I knew exactly what would happen - and it did. I'm NOT surprised; I've seen it so often on PPRuNe. I too didn't realise how much prejudice was around until I started flying - and that's without even doing it professionally yet. But that's another story. Last time I tried telling it on PPRuNe I got accused of being "obsessed with gender". Sad, isn't it?

I doubt if the moderators will bother closing this thread, but since you started it, you can delete it if you want to.

And thanks for what you were attempting to do - not your fault that it got sabotaged.

[Tinstaafl]

I like people who are competant at their jobs. I don't care what gender they are.

I also like women. Don't care what they do for a living. :D

[ScottishBurd]

Wish there were more Tinnys & TDRs....
Thank you :) :) :) :) :)

[McD]

TDR, since you originated this thread and feel it has run its course, I will close it now. I'm glad you didn't delete it.

Although some of the "typical and predictable" comments have shown up, it's still a good thread. There have been some excellent points of view presented, and perhaps some education has taken place (on all "sides" of the argument, if you will ..).

By the way, TDR, good point regarding the "ethnic" substitution for "female"...

Just because this particular thread is being closed, there is no implied prohibition :eek: of this topic being re-opened in the future. Some people can find these topics boring and/or unnecessary, but others can find them very informative.

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: McD ]