VA - no more pilot group, we want pilots and CC together

[PammyAnderson]

V Australia is aggressively asking the small number of initial pilots who have joined on individual contracts to sign a new 5 year EBA that yes get this .... includes the Cabin Crew. Under the new agreement all pilots current and future to be employed will be in a joint EBA with cabin crew, where any conditions for pilots will be jointly voted on. So even if all pilots voted no for something, at a ratio of approx 6:1 nothing will every be achieved if half the CC vote yes. I don't know any other airline where pilots and CC are under a joint EBA. Imagine leaving your wages, days off, duty limits, super, penalty, career progression etc be in the hands of 20 y/o + something flighties on 35G. (no offense to CC by the way). I seriously hope the guys/girls don't get fooled into this. Vote will be as early as next week.
...Doctors aren't included with nurses. Lawyers aren't under court reporter ebas. .... Dont do it guys. !!!!!!

PS i would post the AFAP letter if I knew how. Anyone who can, it may be a good idea.

[wobble2plank]

Welcome to the top of a very slippery slope!

Cabin Crew require no professional qualifications, they need no license, they do SEP exams once a year, not a route check, LPC, OPC medical and IR every year. They do not, physically, have the safety of the aircraft, passengers and crew in their hands. They do not need to judge, collate and rationalise the myriad of variables that an international or domestic flight takes.

Finally, CC do not sign for the aircraft and do not have the Captains laid down legal responsibilities.

Ever seen an incident/accident report with a cause of Cabin Crew error?

This takes our PROFESSION to an all time low.

Sadly I think there are many other companies looking at the same.

[V-Australia Union]

I know that this section is a Flight Crew forum, but cabin crew still read it, so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us, particularly when such an important matter is potentially to be decided by us purely because we are a larger group!

VA Cabin Crew trainees, including a large number who have never flown before, so have now idea what airlines can sometimes be like, are being given lengthy brain washing sessions on how wonderfull the new collective agreement is, and how we should all simply trust the company and that they have our interests and wellbeing at heart! :yuk:

Anyone who has some spare time, and seriously cares about this, please get down to the training centres and try to speak to some of the crew! Make sure they understand your concerns about the agreement, not just that it is combined.

If you are unable to get to a training centre, please email me at [email protected] and I will endeavour to pass on your thoughts and opinions.

[wobble2plank]

V-Australia Union

so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us

I wasn't trying to alienate you or be less than tactful. My post above simply points out the primary differences between CC and pilots.

Simply put Piloting is a profession, CC is not. Why should we be on the same contract? Culpability dictates that those driving deserve better T&C's than those required to shepherd the pax out of the doors in an emergency.

[411A]

I know that this section is a Flight Crew forum, but cabin crew still read it, so please be a bit tactfull, try not to alienate us, particularly when such an important matter is potentially to be decided by us purely because we are a larger group!


CC have always been a problem at most airlines.
Lets face facts here.
These folks are a dime a dozen, have no professional qualifications, and in fact are actually responsible for....nothing
And, are easily replaced.

Pilots and CC...nothing in common, and it should be kept firmly that way.

[boardingpass]

Wobbleplank, you're attitude is the worst I've seen in a very very long time. Actually, most pilots know that cabin crew play a vital part in safety and we usually need to work together as a team with pilots when things go pear-shaped.

Cabin Crew are on a look out for safety and security concerns in the cabin, deal with passengers who are angry about delays, trained in first aid (we might even save your life one day!) and are the one's who'll be fighting the in-flight fire. Not to mention we'll prepare your refreshments and might be the only smile you'll see for 14 hours.

Meanwhile, some people might think that pilots are essentially machine operators with a big pay-packet plus plenty of benefits and can easily be made redundant when computer technology advances enough (such as driver-less trains) and we'll see less Pilot-error incidents when this happens. (see the SLF forums for examples of this mentality).

So, instead of belittling cabin crew, why not show us some of your professionalism and try to reinforce the good job you folk actually do do!

And on the note of it being a profession, not all cabin crew are 20 doing it as their GAP year. Just look at some of the old battle-axes (sorry, senior professionals) pushing that trolley up and down the aisle in BA (sorry BA, couldn't resist). :ok:

[Rananim]

411A,
It really depends.Ive seen some FA's who are excellent and their role can really determine level of customer loyalty.I would say a good lead FA(say 35-40+) is NOT easy to replace at all.
As for safety,I always remember the case of the lead FA saving the skipper at Tenerife and saving many of her passengers lives as well.
So there are some good ones left... the lead FA is a crucial role in a legacy carrier and should be paid accordingly.

[Re-Heat]

the lead FA is a crucial role in a legacy carrier and should be paid accordingly
No matter if it is legacy or not - what you mean is a carrier who aims to provide a quality, high customer service, and competes on service rather than on price.

Otherwise it matters not a jot (have you flown Ryanair?)

[Johnny767]

Many years ago, in Canada, the AME "Aeronautical Maintenance Engineer" and the Ramp Staff "Baggage" joined the same union, the IAM.

It has been a disaster for the AME's.

They are a highly skilled trade together with an unskilled trade. The raw numbers are largely in favor of the Ramp staff which saw HUGE gains in their salary.

Decades later we now have AME's grossly underpaid, and Rampies grossly overpaid.

Pilots and F/A's in the same union..please say NEVER in a million years.

[bowly]

Boarding Pass,

You are missing W2P's point entirely.

[Shaka Zulu]

Boarding Pass you've missed W2P point entirely....
Suggest you re-read what he has stated because unfortunately it is true.

(bowly beat me to it)

[PammyAnderson]

WHY? Because it will keep pilots from having any power to negotiate there own conditions as they are a minority in numbers with what is unskilled labour. By doing this they can avoid pretty much any pay increase or better conditions for potentially ever!

WHO WOULD BENEFIT? The company of coarse! not the pilots.

WHO DREAMT IT UP? Tanner and co (HR) from V australia.

I say again. Imagine letting flight attendants have complete control in all your work conditions in future negotiations. PAY, Lifestyle, Promotion, Super, Duty Limits... Everything. Utterly rediculous.

The flight attendants here who find this a hit on them. Sorry its not. Its nothing against you all personally. But the facts are, CC are NOT pilots, you DO NOT have the qualifications or responsibility. These are facts! and therefore you should have NO SAY in the conditions or negotiations of a pilot group. THis is all fact. I am very certain CC would NOT want the pilot group saying what is fair for them. We dont and we dont want to.

ANYWAY please all V australia Pilots DO NOT vote yes for this. Your future will be in others peoples hands forever.

[wobble2plank]

Boardingpass,

As some of the more capable readers on this thread have pointed out you have missed my point entirely.

Cabin Crew do do a very good job. I personally get on extremely well with the cabin crew. The point to make is that under the FAA and CAA guidance the 1 member of Cabin Crew is required for each 50 pax in order to achieve a swift, co-ordinated evacuation if required.

Judges don't get the same T&C's as the court usher and neither do Doctors, Surgeons and Dentists get the same T's & C's as their nurses.

Professional qualifications demand professional pay and conditions. Simple as that. The airline management are at fault if they can't see that and bullying new entrants, who let's face it are still somewhat star struck whichever side of the door they work on, is plainly wrong.

As to let the computer do it. Would the computers have reacted immediately to the CAT in the QUANTAS case? Can computers judge poor weather conditions in a human sypathetic way and decide the path of least resistance through storms? Can the computers modify flight routes visually to achieve last minute emergency changes in ATC instructions. Unmanned aerial vehicles controlled from the ground have a spectacular accident rate as there is no jeopardy. Build a flight control computer that NEVER goes wrong and maybe, just maybe don't hold your breath though.

Just because a car has cruise control doesn't mean it can drive itself! :ugh:

[boardingpass]

wobbleplank, bowly, et al, I haven't missed the point at all. I agree with you that CC and Pilots shouldn't be voting together on T&C. We are a different kettle of fish altogether.

All I was saying was that it would be better you promoted the work pilots do, rather than belittling the work cc do. We get enough belittling from pax and management as it is, and your support would be much appreciated.

As for the ruffling of feathers I caused about replacing pilots with computers... this is certainly not an opinion of mine and am by no means suggesting it should be done if it even could be. I was merely pointing out there are some people (pax/managers) who think that way.

On a side note, there might be certain areas where cc/pilot joint action may be useful, such as fatigue, OHS standards, minimum rest, etc, but generally I would say this scheme would benefit the company more than anyone else...

P.S. I know Qantas has been having problems lately, but no ewes, please. We're not Air New Zealand.

[Johnny767]

F/A mistake number one! There is zero common interest for Pilots and F/A's.

Fatigue:

Pilot landing a widebody jet, after a max duty day, in bad weather, minimum fuel, alternate weather deteriorating.

F/A doing the last meal service.

Who's fatigue should we be the most worried about?

[wobble2plank]

Sorry,

Queensland And New Territories Air Service (QANTAS) :}

There was, and I point it out again, NO belittling of Cabin Crew intended or even posted. Purely a point in case of the differences that those who fly the aircraft deal with every day.

Back to the point, do not ever,ever agree to such a ridiculous deal!

[PammyAnderson]

If anyone wants to read the whole contract here is the link.
It in another thread. Really worth a read
cheers
PA

http://www.pprune.org/4448276-post55.html

and

http://www.pprune.org/4448285-post56.html

Some of the best bits though:

REMUNERATION
18. SALARY
18.1 If you are a full-time Employee, your starting salary will be no less than the applicable
salary set out below:

Classification Salary

Check and Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 16% of this
amount for time spent performing check and/or training duties.
Training Captain $175,000 per year plus an additional 10% of this amount for time spent performing training duties.
Captain $175,000 per year.
8.
First Officer $114,000 per year.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Airline Transport Pilot’s Licence)
$42,800 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $53,500 per year thereafter.
Cruise Relief First Officer (with Commercial Pilot’s Licence)
$38,220 per year up to the successful completion of simulator checks and then $47,775 per year thereafter.

Flight Manager $59,000 per year.
Cabin Leader $49,000 per year.
Cabin Crew (Level 2) $40,000 per year (following satisfactory performance in Level 1 after 12 months service).
Cabin Crew (Level 1) $37,500 per year.


And yes thats in AU dollars..

Imagine having Cabin Crew vote in the majority in your future negotiations if you take a pay cut even.... ??? the mind boggles :{

[PammyAnderson]

1) Unclear if pilots and cc will vote together, or separately?
Currently both groups are on individual contracts, and this document is being put to a vote. Both groups are being asked to agree to go onto this one joint EBA. If this happens then YES all future negotiations and votes on conditions for pilots will include all CC. The pilots will be out numbered approx 6-1. So even if the company for example said we want all the pilots to give up a day off, work an extra 50 hours a year or even take a pay cut. A 100% no vote from the entire pilot group wouldnt matter if half the CC voted yes. Very Very scary thought.

Quote:
(2) Will you be able to post the results of the vote on this thread after the vote?
YES, I will soon as I hear anything.

Lets hope the pilot group dont agree to this. Once its in, its in forever.

[Aussie]

THose T&C are shocking! WHo accepts that crap? Minus Aussie tax and your not left with much at all!

[V-Australia Union]

CC and Flight Crew must be on seperate contracts. As must baggage handlers and engineers.

Pilots are highly trained individuals and have received their qualifications through hard work, long hours and large somes of money. Your salaries are therefore paid proportionately.

Pilots are only more important when part of the onboard hierarchy. Once away from the airport, they are simply fellow employees. Pilots do not deserve better standards of accommodation, higher allowances, first room allocation, better crew meals, higher priority staff travel, seperate crew transport, extra hotel freebies such as wi-fi or dry cleaning...

[Johnny767]

Pilots are only more important when part of the onboard hierarchy. Once away from the airport, they are simply fellow employees. Pilots do not deserve better standards of accommodation, higher allowances, first room allocation, better crew meals, higher priority staff travel, seperate crew transport, extra hotel freebies such as wi-fi or dry cleaning...

Pilots absolutely deserve some of the above. That will be the day I wait in the lobby while the F/A's get their rooms.

"Command Authority" is the order for hotel check-in.

It wasn't that long ago the Skipper got a Suite. Thanks to the F/A's (and the Airline capitulating) we are into the "...we are all equal" B.S.

Give them an inch..and they take a mile.

We are NOT equal, F/A's just have to get over it.

[boardingpass]

Wow, what a can of worms you've just opened up! Should captains get the suite and f/as share the twin? I guess it depends on the culture of the company/place. Being from egalitarian Australia, I was shocked recently when I saw a crew manager with a swipe card being able to park his car in a different car-park closer to the terminal when we all have to walk the extra 30 metres to the employees' car park.

[V-Australia Union]

Pilots are highly skilled individuals, and deserve as much as they can squeeze out of a company! But does that mean that CC do not deserve the right to get as much as they can too.

Perhaps doing it as a collective isn't such a bad thing... If you guys fight for free wi-fi or dry cleaning, then we'll get it too on the VA agreement. Woo Hoo!

Johnny767:
I am not trying to say that pilots and crew are equals!
We're much better! Pilots just need to Get over it!

On the whole, we are less arrogant, less condescending, less sleazy, and don't drink $100 bottles of wine at dinner and try to make the whole crew split the bill! Oh and many of the guys have more hair too!

If you don't like working with CC, go to a cargo airline!

[AirborneSoon]

Wow! Great CRM going on here...:yuk:

Maybe it's time we all grew up kids and leave the dead horse alone.

[wobble2plank]

Goes back around to what I said at the start,

Piloting is a profession, Cabin attendant is a job.

Simple.

Oh, and interestingly, the Captain IS still responsible for the actions of the crew 'down route'.

Also, whilst I have never drunk $100 bottles of wine, especially when a good cold beer is available, it has been my experience over the last 22 years that many, although not all by a long way, of the CC have deep pockets and short arms when it comes to getting the round in. :}

[boardingpass]

Oldtora,
you forgot to mention the dangerous situation that middle managers find themselves in and need to be on constant alert for paper-cuts.

[tested satis]

Hell of a thread!!

As a Senior Engineer with an International carrier, I have to say that the attitude shown by the pilots(professionals!) to the Cabin-crew(non-professionals!) is not surprising.
Most of my Engineers experience the same attitude from the pilots as has been shown here. We have the final say on an aircraft's technical state. We are fully accountable for the work done on the aircraft and are qualified to Bsc(IEng) level. We are supervisory staff, having up to 20 direct reports at any 1 time and have to oversee their work and certify it. Now do we fall into the heady role of PROFESSIONAL as stated by pilots. Or (as I suspect), do pilots deem themselves to be the only professionals in the Airline.
I dont have a chip on my shoulder about flight crew as I earn more than most of them(perhaps due to my 7-8 years of study!!). What gets me most is that the people that deem themselves to be the most professional seem to act the worst to their work colleagues.:=:=:=:=

Minor rant!

[wobble2plank]

Tested Satis,

You would be happy to be on the same contract as the Cabin Crew, 3 week induction course, after your 7-8 years of study then?

That is entirely the point.

As I also have engineering qualifications I am always happy to see the engineers and enjoy the light hearted banter that exists between our two professions. Same as I am the Cabin Crew. Personally I sadly miss the halcyon days of 3 man crews.

I just don't want to be on the same contract as the Cabin Crew.

[cal777]

I thought clowns like you were extinct. Dinosaurs I believe you're called. Sorry pal, let me just get you a coffee and your steak. If you're not trying to alienate crew, some of us who have been doing our "hobby" not of course our profession for 10 years or more, you're doing a p-ss poor job.

Pilot Incapacitation........what a tragedy:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::ma d::mad::mad::mad::mad:

[wobble2plank]

Cal777

Well that puerile load of drivel certainly does your point some good.

Oddly enough non of this thread has been about 'alienating' anybody. Ironically the entire thrust of the thread was purely to differentiate the two roles that the respective bodies play on the aircraft hence the requirement to have separate contracts.

The most people who post such vehement objections based on 'alienation' obviously have their own axe to grind. Feel free.

Welcome to the PROFESSIONAL PILOTS rumour network. If you don't like it then form the PCCRuNe.

Go peddle your childish rants there and let the adults 'discuss' the points here.

Different roles, different contracts. Get over it.

[Johnny767]

Hell of a thread!!

As a Senior Engineer with an International carrier, I have to say that the attitude shown by the pilots(professionals!) to the Cabin-crew(non-professionals!) is not surprising.
Most of my Engineers experience the same attitude from the pilots as has been shown here. We have the final say on an aircraft's technical state. We are fully accountable for the work done on the aircraft and are qualified to Bsc(IEng) level. We are supervisory staff, having up to 20 direct reports at any 1 time and have to oversee their work and certify it. Now do we fall into the heady role of PROFESSIONAL as stated by pilots. Or (as I suspect), do pilots deem themselves to be the only professionals in the Airline.
I dont have a chip on my shoulder about flight crew as I earn more than most of them(perhaps due to my 7-8 years of study!!). What gets me most is that the people that deem themselves to be the most professional seem to act the worst to their work colleagues.:=:=:=:=

Minor rant!

tested statis:

Where I "live and work," (Canada) the Engineers made the fatal mistake of joining the same Union as the ramp rats.

They have paid an incredible price, ever since!

Here in Canada, the F/A Union (CUPE) has an outstanding court case with the Federal Government for "Work of Equal Value" to Pilots.

It is one twisted, screwed up mind, that would think that getting hired for a job, with ZERO prerequisites, is equal to a Pilot.

So please forgive a little tension toward, "dick-in-the-rear F/A" that figures he is worth the same pay as Pilots.

To a person, the Pilots I know have the highest respect for the Engineers.

Unfortunately, in Canada they are grossly underpaid.

V -Australia Union:

Thanks for the tip on Cargo, I would have never thought of that.

Problem is, having spent 30 years working for a Major Overseas carrier... it is to late.

1st 20 or so were awesome, unfortunately the monkeys are running the zoo these days.

Time To Take It Back!

Trying to be mister nice guy hasn't worked. Give them an inch, they take a mile.

...trust me.

[Mr. Hat]

Also, whilst I have never drunk $100 bottles of wine, especially when a good cold beer is available, it has been my experience over the last 22 years that many, although not all by a long way, of the CC have deep pockets and short arms when it comes to getting the round in.

sounds very familiar....

We have the final say on an aircraft's technical state.

err no thats also the captains call.

[cal777]

What a loser or as we say in Australia, a wank-r. You're a dinosaur pal and the sooner aviation is rid of clowns like you the better for pax, fellow flight crew and cc and lastly SAFETY, I can imagine your attitude to CRM. Don't you watch the DVDs where the Cpt won't listen........f-ck I'd love to be doing my security/self defence course with you.


What a goose

[cal777]

Gee wobbly,

looks like your missing the point. for all your p-ssing and moaning you aint changing a thing other than proving how much a bunch of a-seholes SOME tech crew can be. i don't mind people who do a different job that requires more training and qualifications getting paid a lot more, I do take exception when the same f-ckwit thinks he better than anyone else. if you want a collective agreement all they're offering at the moment is a joint one. You may have to be the one who gets over it.

and yeah I'm a kid and your the grown up, what an ignoramus u are Pilots like you give cabbies a bad name.

[wobble2plank]

cal777,

Once again the purile rantings of a child do nothing to get your point across. In fact the contents of your posts provide no points whatsoever except to show that you have a well balanced 'chip on both shoulders' approach to your colleagues.

Do you feel that, during a possibly highly complex malfunction, after you have secured the cabin and prepared for a possible emergency landing you are working at the same level as the flight crew? Or possibly the engineers who could be assisting the flight crew over the radio? Why is it that Flight Crew, as well as completing their own bi annual flight simulator checks, line checks, OPC checks and medicals, still complete the same Safety Equipment Procedures the Cabin Crew have to complete annually?

The role of the cabin crew, as stated by the JAA and the CAA is that one is required for every 50 pax to assist in the expeditious and safe evacuation of the cabin in an emergency and to report any disruption to the Captain. All the other roles on board are fluff, as required by the company. All of the CC I fly with are extremely good at their job and very competent. I enjoy an extremely good working relationship with the Cabin Crew based upon mutual respect for each others job. There are, unfortunately, a minute amount who will think we deserve equal footing. You seem to be one of them wanting the same as flight crew without the need to put in the years of hard work and study required, the annual clutch of checks or the innate responsibility inherent with flying hundreds of passengers around the sky safely and expeditiously.

If you have relevant, factual information to bring to the debate then please post it. If all you can do is show how prejudiced, childish and venomous you are then you are doing all of your colleagues worldwide a serious dis-favor.

Waiting for the next post of contrived wisdom.

ps. Swearing is the preserve of the weak minded.

Also CRM doesn't mean we are all cuddly and equal and I have to ask pretty please for everything, it means effective communication leading to the best use of available crew resources.

Oh, I forgot to add, if this is to be an even debate then please, let the Cabin Crew inform us as to why they think they deserve parity in T's & C's. What makes the cabin crew fraternity believe they should have a level playing field. Should make the debate interesting! :ok:

[tested satis]

Jonny767

Don't worry, I too would not want to be on the same contract as the CC. But I also would not want my contract merged with anyones contract.
My main point is that the Flight Deck dont really seem to make any effort in understanding anybody else's job, but expect(demand) that EVERYBODY knows just how hard theirs is. I have been referred to as many things by flight deck and so have my staff(oily rag/if I wanted a real job in the airline I should have tried harder in school etc). How many Flight deck have bothered to find out about the qualifications reqd to sign out an Aircraft, about the diff between a Mechanic/Technician/Engineer??. I would want to know if I was going to accecpt somebodies word on the state of my aircraft!
I have many close Flight deck friends ( the more mature kind !) and they too are shocked at their colleagues actions and attitudes.
Just look back through this thread and view the comments about the CC and tell me that they are made by people who are mature ,responsible and Professional. The comments made are about people that work in the same Airline as these people, that cannot be viewed as the correct attitude towards fellow staff, even if you view their role as minor.

The main thing I seem to have a problem with is some of the FD attitude- Maybe I have just met a bad lot, If so then I stand corrected. But I may need some convincing!
Oh Yes- and when It comes to fixing an aircraft-only a type rated Licensed Engineer can deem the Aircraft Airworthy and sign the Tech Log to state that. Sorry -have to hold up our end!!

[cal777]

Gee you go on........... "Working at the same level" I'm not sure what you mean by working.
If you mean, work n 1. employment, effort for which one is paid money. 2. task. 3. toil. 6. labour. 7. exert oneself. 8. be employed........than yes I do believe we are working at the same level.

Nowhere has anyone including myself ever made any inference that we do the same type of work, we might infer that we work as hard as you at what we do, but never have we said the same type.

That's why you receive considerably larger remuneration from a wages perspective, because to get the job you needed x amount of training, flying hours, annual medicals and all the other things that are mentioned.
So feel free to jump down from that soapbox!

I and other cc take exception that you feel superior as a human being purely because of what job you do in our common workplace. You comment on your good working relationship with cc and it's only the minute few "who will think we deserve equal footing "

Equal footing in what???
It's quite easy to say, as I already have how I enjoy a good working relationship with the majority of Tech Crew I've worked with, it's only the minute few who belong in different era who think they are better and deserve better conditions. I'll say it again. You do receive recognition for your more challenging and more qualified position/job/work/task/career.........it's called your wages.........

anything apart from that
( besides perhaps, rest periods and other things in the workplace that are germane to what you do e.g to keep current ie study allowances)

is all about a grab for prestige and privilege, so, sorry mate.

Here's something I'll put to you, would you object to daily breath testing before you get behind the "wheel"?

I'd feel a whole lot safer....and if you don't believe there are pilots somewhere in commercial aviation on a daily basis over the legal limit (even to drive a car) then you are extremely naive or a fool.......I'll suspend my judgment.

2 more things.....

Are you employed by VAustralia?

re your comment, "swearing is the preserve........

you really come across as someone intelligent, but those who use fancy words and high browed perception, well you just come across as stuck up a-seholes who think they're better than the dumb plebs in the back of the plane.............



hmmmmmmm, common thread there with pilots aint it......oops sorry, isn't it

[mona lot]

Who cares which union you are in, Cabin crew/Flight crew. The airline unions are so toothless it really makes no difference.

[wobble2plank]

Cal777,

Fabulous, that made me laugh at least.

Wages, terms and conditions all come from responsibility. I never made the point about working hard, once again you dragged up your own mud to sling, my point was purely at what level mentally and professionally we were working. My bin men work hard removing the bins and I am sure they are 'working', to use your terminology, very hard but I don't see any reason to be on the same contract.

The safe conduct of a flight is the preserve delegated by the company to the Captain and through him/her to the First Officer. Working for the Captain is the Senior Cabin Crew Member who is responsible TO THE CAPTAIN for the cabin.

Management have terms and conditions that befit their role within companies, the higher the role the greater the responsibility/risk and hence the better the 'package'. The same works for us in charge of the aircraft, crew and passengers.

I would whole heartedly agree that a well planned, briefed and conducted flight carries, for me personally, a low workload. It is the 'insurance' that is the vital part here, I earn my stripes when things don't go to plan, the weather isn't playing fair or systems that Airbus state 'can never go wrong in that way' go wrong in that way i.e. QANTAS A330 unserviceable ADIRU units feeding into the elevator/ Boeing 777 engine failure/ A319 total electrical failure etc.. That is when we in the front earn our T's & C's and, if we do it well, you in the back don't even notice. Wages are fees for services provided, conditions are there to entice the best people into the job. One goes hand in hand with the other and all top management jobs come with a package including both.

I fail even to see what your 'soap box' is? You still haven't seen fit to explain under what circumstances you feel we require the same contracts?

As to breath testing, yes I am for it, I have been breath tested down route and don't see, as a responsible adult, anything against it. However, if we are to see breath testing it must be for the WHOLE CREW, as your primary purpose is for the evacuation of the pax in and emergency, nothing else. That is the 'responsibility' that dictates your T's & C's. Big one isn't it.

To sum up, I don't consider myself better than most of the hard working, courteous, diligent people working down the back. I think they do a fantastic job. I just do not feel that we should degrade our position as a professional body by accepting common contracts that benefit no one but the companies that force them onto the work force. The cabin crew, usually the union reps with the loudest voices, that spout rubbish from a font of ill informed knowledge however, I will let you figure that one out.

Sorry I don't do l33t speak to help you with the long words.

(At least it helps to pass a rainy afternoon :} )

[Capt Pit Bull]

Professionalism is an attitude, not a job title.

The issue here is nothing to do with who is higher up the totem poll, but rather the demographic of the workforce. Quite simply, pilots generally stay around to retirement, Cabin Crew generally don't (yes, of course some do, but CC does hold a large number of people who do it only for a part - and generally the first part - of a career).

Consequently whats important in a set of T & Cs is totally different, and it spells disaster for the minority group.

A small example, lets say the issue is medical insurance, whether it is or is not to be part of the standard employment package. For a working group with average age in their mid twenties, a sizeable majority won't see this is critically important. For a group with average age 40 something its a big deal.


pb

[wobble2plank]

This from:

Australian Council of Professions

Interesting:

'A disciplined group of individuals who adhere to high ethical standards and uphold themselves to, and are accepted by, the public as possessing special knowledge and skills in a widely recognised, organised body of learning derived from education and training at a high level, and who are prepared to exercise this knowledge and these skills in the interest of others.

Inherent in this definition is the concept that the responsibility for the welfare, health and safety of the community shall take precedence over other considerations.'

Hmmmmm? possessing special knowledge and skills in a widely recognised, organised body of learning derived from education and training at a high level ring any bells?

Not my quote, simply passing it along but as piloting falls into a recognised professional group though it might be worth posting :-)

[JennyB]

"and who are prepared to exercise this knowledge and these skills in the interest of others."

Probably where your argument falls down, a more self-interested bunch than pilots would be hard to find, even within their own ranks.

[wobble2plank]

It's a bit ironic then, that our 'self interest' revolves around getting the entire aircraft, crew and passengers safely from A to B expeditiously often in less than ideal weathers and, in some cases, circumstances. I don't generally wish to go to many of the places I fly to, same as a surgeon probably doesn't want to do yet another breast op or a dentist is fed up of filling teeth. But it still gets done.

Do I want to protect the terms and conditions I have worked so hard over the years to achieve? Yes. Do I want to allow another 'department' within a company to have a majority vote over my future, benefits and working conditions? Ones that many from this thread have made patently clear, have no interest in what pilots actually do and just demean their efforts without giving concrete facts, examples or reasons for such a deal? Nope.

CC and pilots will be moaning about each other until long after we are all dead and buried. God forbid that CC ever have a voting right over my terms and conditions.

[blow.n.gasket]

Wasn't there a high court decision on this very topic about the working conditions of pilots being so unique ,the Court deemed pilot's conditions to be SUI GENERIS>

Legal applications
In law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law), it is a term of art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_art) used to identify a legal classification that exists independently of other categorizations because of its uniqueness or due to the specific creation of an entitlement or obligation. Courts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Supreme_Court) have used the term in describing cooperative apartment corporations, mostly because this form of housing is considered real property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_property) for some purposes and personal property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property) for other purposes. In intellectual property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intellectual_property) there are rights which are known as being sui generis to owners of a small class of works, such as intellectual property rights in mask works (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mask_work), ship hull designs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hull_(ship)), databases (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Database_right), or plant varieties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(plant)). When referring to case citations and authorities, lawyers (and Judges) may refer to an authority cited as being 'sui generis', meaning in that context, it is one confined (or special) to its own facts, and therefore may not be of broader application. This is also the modern view that courts are holding when deciding judgments based on Oil and Gas leases.


Why are these clowns in HR even going down this path????:confused:

[Johnny767]

Any news on how this is going?

[flying cat]

johnny767 you are well overdue a course in crm. in the company i work for, pilots and cabin crew are in the same union. however we each negotiate our own terms and conditions and i must say, to date, the cabin crew union section have being doing a much better job. we are treated with respect and courtesy by our pilots and as a result the inflight dymamic works extremely well. cabin crew appreciate that you have trained long and expensively to achieve your flight crew position. we are aware that you have much responsiblity for the lives of pax and crew. you on the otherhand, seem to have 0 awareness of how cabin crew contribute to the safety of a flight for everyone. we respect your role and would like you to equally respect ours.

[Spunky Monkey]

Sadly there is too much Willy waving going on in this thread and it has gone completely off topic.

The intolerance and arrogance demonstrated by both parties shows why the company would want you all to join together.

You lot wouldn't be able to organise a p*ss up in a brewery, as you would be argueing about who is first to be served, who can drink the most and who should be the designated driver.

Very purile...and that is very rich comming from me.

Divided we stand...divided we fall...