Unions to kick down door at FR

[CaptKremin]

The Irish Government has just finished brokering a new National Wage Deal between the countries unions and employers. The unions realised that pay increases are problematic at present (though they acheived 6% over 3 years:E) and concentrated instead on changes to workers rights legislation.

As a result, from next March, new legislation will be in place making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union. This legislation was demanded by the unions specifically to deal with the bullying and blackguarding that goes on in Ryanair.

From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail.

Pack your bags Micko!:D

[AltFlaps]

Firstly, I loathe the likes of O'Leary.
He makes lawyers and estate agents look like descent charitable human beings.

However, O'Leary is not stupid, and anyone covered in so much slimy scum will always wriggle free.

[CaptKremin]

Not this time.
The Irish Government needs industrial peace, so the legislation better work, or they'll have Armageddon on their hands next year.

O'Learys bullyboy days are numbered.

[Just a spotter]

CaptKremin

I think you are getting ahead of yourself a little.

The official line from The Department of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) on the points of agreement on Union membership in the agreement are;

Setting up a time-bound process in which the issue of employee representation and the appropriate legislative framework will be addressed;

The introduction of a statutory prohibition on the victimisation of employees based on their membership or non-membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, and on incentivising non-membership of trade unions;

JAS

[GlueBall]

For the life of me, I still can't comprehend how all of you guys [pilots] put up with having to pay for your coffee. You do need a union. :rolleyes:

[Taildragger67]

For the life of me, I still can't comprehend how all of you guys [pilots] put up with having to pay for your coffee

... or pens, or teabags, or lunch. It ain't just the pilots who have to pay mill owner for permission to come to work.

[rubik101]

Cpt Kremin
O'Leary will be cold in hell before any union darkens his doorway in Dublin.
He has ignored the EU laws for the past ten years so what makes you think that the Irish Gov't will have any more effect on him?

Arranging a vote at any base will be nigh on impossible.
Any base that votes for a union will be closed.

Next base please........Oh, you don't want to vote.....OK

End of story.

[CaptKremin]

Setting up a time-bound process in which the issue of employee representation and the appropriate legislative framework will be addressed;
The Irish Times version includes the timeframe - March 2009.
D-Day!

The introduction of a statutory prohibition on the victimisation of employees based on their membership or non-membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, and on incentivising non-membership of trade unions;

Sounds excellent. Whats your problem?

Cpt Kremin
O'Leary will be cold in hell before any union darkens his doorway in Dublin.
He has ignored the EU laws for the past ten years so what makes you think that the Irish Gov't will have any more effect on him?

Arranging a vote at any base will be nigh on impossible.
Any base that votes for a union will be closed.

Next base please........Oh, you don't want to vote.....OK

End of story.

Oh, I know he'll wriggle. But closing the Dublin base is not an option. He likes to spin the myth that he's an 'Irish Airline'. I think the Irish public would feel terribly abandoned and let down. :{

Besides which - if FR bucks off, there's always ALT. They'll gladly fill his boots! I'm sure the FR guys would be happy to work for a unionised airline with decent salaries and conditions, and a bit of respect.

He'd be more likely to try some delaying tactics in the Courts, but the new legislation also has a built in review incorporated in it. If it is wallowing - the NWA falls.

The government hate Ducksy anyhow - I don't see them sticking their necks out to save his. Not with the whole country sliding down the pan as a result.

[bia botal]

He'd be more likely to try some delaying tactics in the Courts, but the new legislation also has a built in review incorporated in it. If it is wallowing - the NWA falls.

oh great does that mean that we in dublin have to go through more years of !!!!e so that the rest can provail. dream F$%ken on captkremin. it is never going to happen.

[bear11]

Fantasy - how do you manage to connect "making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union" with "From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail"? Where does it say that MOL has to recognise any union, even if he can be slapped for trying to intimidate or punish his employees who are in one?

Any decision to make union recognition compulsory has been fobbed off to a review process in 2009, despite it being a SIPTU "deal breaker" in the talks process. The unions have pushed very hard for years to make recognition compulsory - like it or not, the fact is that Irish Government did a deal with the many multinational employers in this country which does not allow collective bargaining, giving that away now to keep you happy would lose other jobs in Ireland, and effectively wipe out future investment in that sector. You don't live in a vacuum - build a bridge and get over it.

[v6g]

MOL has proved himself to be a very astute businessman, partly by always being one step ahead of government regulation.

I find it hard to believe that union recognition will soon be on the way given that the lack of collective bargaining of his work force is a supporting pillar of his business plan.

[sweeper]

are all you guys new?
nothing in the pretty rhetoric from the recent "agreement" will inhibit the implentation of any hard nosed business "adjustment" in the airline business, even if actioned by (deleted) mol. (deletion in reference to basic common manners, not business ability)
get real people......:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Just a spotter]

Folks,

before any of you get all excited about the prospect of any new legislation from the Dáil, have a quick read of the Irish Constitution, in particular Article 40, section 6. (and no I'm not a lawyer, but did have some legal studies when I was in college)

This might be a double edged sword to CaptainK's expectations.

It is already a right enshrined in the Constitution to form and join a trade union. It is also a right to express an opinion (within reason) and to assemble/associate. However, on this last one, the assembly and association, the courts some time back ruled that the corollary to the right to assemble/associate was the right to not assemble/associate, (can't remember the case but, funnily enough IIRC it was do to with union membership) hence you can't have a law to force you to turn up and vote in Ireland, nor can you force people to become a member of a union (making it a condition of joining a company before you start your employment is a different thing), nor can you force an organisation to deal with a union.

Any legislation would, in my non legal professional opinion, undoubtedly face a constitutional challenge.

JAS

[rubik101]

Kremin, you live in a dream world of the power of the unions.
I repeat, Ryanair will never recognise a union for the reasons stated earlier. Just which Union is it that you envisage 'kicking down the door'?

BALPA......................forget it.
IFALPA.....................not again.

Ryanair will fold before a union rep gets through the door.

And next week, a new airline will arise from the ashes with all freelance contracts/Brookfield and unions will be as much use as fire lighters in hell.

or union members in Ryanair.......................

dream on

[merlinxx]

You gonna get every base unionised? I doubt it, but do try. We have hope for you.

[CaptKremin]

- how do you manage to connect "making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union" with "From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail"? How? Can't you figure it out for yourself smartarse?
O'Leary has been faced with imprisonment before - didn't you know? There are pictures in the public domain of a very worried looking Ducksy arriving at the Four Courts in Dublin with his overnight bag.
It was that close.
Contempt of Court is one way to get yourself thrown in the clink double-quick, and since O'Leary has contempt for EVERYONE he is inevitably doomed to repeating his contempt.

Where does it say that MOL has to recognise any union, even if he can be slapped for trying to intimidate or punish his employees who are in one?Extract from the new National Wage Agreement:

(4) Collective Bargaining:

The Government will enact legislation, in June of 2009, to enable the mechanisms which were established in the “2004 Act” to operate as originally intended prior to the Supreme Court decision in the Ryanair case. (and if that ain't a hint - you're a cretin) This will be preceded by a review process which will consider the legal and other steps involved. This will be concluded by the end of March 2009.


Here is the 2004 Act:

http://www.entemp.ie/publications/employment/2004/indrelmiscprivact.pdf

I draw your attention to S.8, Industrial Relations Act 2004, Miscellaneous Provisions. This is the section of the Act which the new agreement will affect. The intent is merely to rectify the flaws in the original to make it fully binding - and to prevent worms like O'Leary wriggling out.

Any decision to make union recognition compulsory has been fobbed off to a review process in 2009, despite it being a SIPTU "deal breaker" in the talks process.You have your wires crossed old pal. You're referring to a different element of the agreement, and 2009 is just 3 months away.
My, how time flies!

(5) Anti-Victimisation Legislation:

Legislation to prohibit victimisation, including dismissal and incentivisation, and to provide effective protection and means of redress to employees when engaged in the proper and legitimate exercise of their rights to trade union membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, or non-membership, or a manager discharging his or her managerial functions, will be brought forward with a view to its enactment by March 2009.

That seems clear enough to me!

I find it hard to believe that union recognition will soon be on the way given that the lack of collective bargaining of his work force is a supporting pillar of his business plan.Heck - what's he gonna do now? Now that that 'pillar' is about to be kicked away.

....the courts some time back ruled that the corollary to the right to assemble/associate was the right to not assemble/associate ....you can't have a law to force you to turn up and vote in Ireland, nor can you force people to become a member of a union (??:rolleyes:??)

Where do you get this idea about anyone being forced to JOIN a union?
The only force being used is by O'Leary.
When the union gets up and running in FR - no force will be necessary to find recruits. They'll come running. Especially after the slashing O'Leary is preparing for this winter.

...... nor can you force an organisation to deal with a union.

So, in your unqualified opinion - the 2004 Act is unconstitutional, and all the preparatory work done by the AG, the Government, The Unions, IBEC and their respective legal advisors - is also wrong. Because you know better.

Well, good luck making that one stick.

[rubik101]

Kremin, you miss the point; O'Leary will never have to deal with a union in Ryanair because there never will be a union in Ryanair. You don't seem to read the posts thoroughly.
Pilots voting for a union in Ryanair is like signing your own P45 or turkeys for more Christmas days!
It just won't happen.
All your posturing about the power of the union and EU laws etc. amount for nothing if there is no union to use them.
I'll tell you what; you go and kick his door in and let us all know how you got on. OK?

[Just a spotter]

CaptK,

here is a legal professionals opinion, prior to the determination of the "Ryanair case", from a well respected legal firm.

Trade union recognition - mandatory? - William Fry, Solicitors, Ireland's Leading Business Law Firm (http://www.williamfry.ie/article.asp?categoryID=252&articleID=1508)

JAS

[bear11]

JAS, don't waste your breath - despite Ryanair being in business over 23 years without a union, having a constitutional right not to have to recognise unions, Kremin's own union walking away from court on the issue which disillusioned most of his comrades completely, and despite the fact that SIPTU attempting to force the government allow union recognition would lead to a loss of jobs and job development in other multinational industries in Ireland (not that Kremin obviously gives a !!!!!e), Kremin should be allowed keep his head stuck up his empennage and ignore reality.

And no Kremin, I'm not anti-union, I simply have a real problem in this case with SIPTU/IALPA who are being irresponsible by insisting on something that can't be done which would have a knock-on effect on workers and jobs in other areas of the economy here - not that SIPTU give a monkey's about the other workers under pressure in HP/Dell/INTEL etc as they ain't in a union.

[CaptKremin]

CaptK,

here is a legal professionals opinion, prior to the determination of the "Ryanair case", from a well respected legal firm.

Trade union recognition - mandatory? - William Fry, Solicitors, Ireland's Leading Business Law Firm (http://www.williamfry.ie/article.asp?categoryID=252&articleID=1508)

JAS


Interesting article JAS, as far as it goes. But all it does is relate the history of how we got to where we are. The new legislation will write another paragraph on that article. The history of how the previous legislation was modified to actually work.

As for a Constitutional challenge - it may be a possibility. Who knows what mad Mick would try. I'd call that grasping at straws.
There is a new mood abroad in the land. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs and livelihoods in the next 2 years. I think its sinking in that the rampant capitalism championed by O'Leary and the PD's has brought us to these dire straits.
If its constitutionality was ever tested, I have the feeling the action would be kicked out of court, just like the PD's have been kicked out of office, and out of existence.

And no Kremin, I'm not anti-union, I simply have a real problem in this case with SIPTU/IALPA who are being irresponsible by insisting on something that can't be done which would have a knock-on effect on workers and jobs in other areas of the economy here - not that SIPTU give a monkey's about the other workers under pressure in HP/Dell/INTEL etc as they ain't in a union.

As to the HP/Dell/INTEL workers who aren't in a union - the question is WHY NOT? You have me confused - on the one hand you condemn the unions for 'doing nothing' for non-union workers, while at the same time you seem to be opposing the introduction of legislation that would allow their unionisation.
I'm pretty sure the reason Intel workers are not unionised is THATS THEIR OWN CHOICE. Intel have traditionally been one of the best employers in the state, and I'm quite sure Dell and HP have been equally good to work for. If those workers are happy - let them stay out of unions.

I said it before, no union is FORCING membership on anyone. This is about the RIGHT to form a union and have it RECOGNISED by your employer.


attempting to force the government allow union recognition would lead to a loss of jobs and job development in other multinational industries in Ireland
I challenge you to provide a single shred of evidence to substantiate that claim.

not that Kremin obviously gives a !!!!!e

On the contrary, it is patently you who doesn't 'give a !!!!!e' about the employees of those companies.
If they feel they need a union, why do you wish to stop them?
'For their own good' you seem to say! How arrogant!

Are you going to stand as judge and jury over others as to 'whats good for them'? It's a blatant 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.
You seek to deny others the job satisfaction you seem to have!
Get off your high horse.

[Mach trim]

Spanish law is very much on the workers side,more so.

Just look at the Spanish Estatutos re Trabajadores

Why dont the guys at Ryanair form a SEPLA union section in Girona ?

Or am I out of the loop here ?

Why not A SEPLA union section in Girona ( Easyjet has one ) guess it depends where they pay tax too ??

[captplaystation]

Pilots in Girona are either on a Irish contract if full time, and therefore paying tax and operating under Irish employment law or, in the case of contractors ,employed by an agency nominally based in the UK and left to pay tax (or not) in whichever country they feel like. All of this makes the involvement of a Spanish union impractical, and given the strength of the union ( SEPLA) I can't see that RYR would exactly welcome their involvement. All RYR contracts have a clause that you accept to be moved ( at the companies discretion) to another base, this clause has ( and would again be ) used for reasons other than simple operational requirements if any "uprising" and it's instigators were identified. Ryanair will do anything ,no matter how draconian, to keep unions out, anyone failing to believe this is deceiving themselves and their colleagues, and grossly underestimating what an uphill task orchestrating any recognition attempt would entail.
If anything has become clear these last few years, it is that it is impossible to find "unity" in such a disparate group of individuals, and that ,even with only 2 Unions involved( IALPA & BALPA ), the strategy required to mount a recognition campaign could not be coordinated between them, never mind involving SEPLA et al.
That , unfortunately, is the situation and the pilots have only themselves ( collectively ) to blame. MOL has, over the years ,been allowed to go too far, and the train is too far off the rails to get it back on.
Edited to say, Easy achieved union recognition a while back in the UK, so therein lies the reason that they have a little SEPLA enclave in MAD I suppose.

[rubik101]

Captplaystation, you and I have posted the reality of the situation on here many times but posters such as Kremin refuse to take any notice.
I think we are wasting our time pointing out such 'facts' to those who believe that the power of the unions will overcome all odds and send MOL packing to his farm in Dublin. The union is only powerful if all the pilots become members.

Sadly and not without some of the blame being squarely on the pilots shoulders, the unions will never exist in Ryanair for all the very valid reasons which have been posted on here on numerous occasions.

Citing EU directives and spurious laws and rulings will not alter the fact that the pilot group will never be in a position to vote for a union. As mentioned earlier, they will be moved, sacked and railroaded, as they have been in the past such that any voting will simply trigger base closures and loss of jobs. Said base soon to be reopened with all the newly recruited, non union, pilots, on lower scales, from the holding pool of the unemployed.

Just pray that you don't become one of them.

Reality sucks, but it still remains the reality.

Kremin, how did your door kicking get on btw? Any luck?

[CaptKremin]

What a pair of defeatists.

If O'Leary wins its only because people like you haven't enough backbone to stand up to him.

The new legislation specifically addresses victimisation and 'incentivisation'. It simply requires the determination to bring it to Court.
I won't hold my breath for either of you two to try it.

(5) Anti-Victimisation Legislation:

Legislation to prohibit victimisation, including dismissal and incentivisation, and to provide effective protection and means of redress to employees when engaged in the proper and legitimate exercise of their rights to trade union membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, or non-membership, or a manager discharging his or her managerial functions, will be brought forward with a view to its enactment by March 2009.

[FlyDreamliner]

O'Leary knows what he's doing.
Many staff complain about working conditions at Ryanair but they fail to realise that Ryanair offers them the most competitive wages, a secure position and don' t necessarily care about their looks.
If you' re not happy working for Ryanair, the best thing to do is to look for another airline to work at. With your experience at Ryanair, you will surely find a new job at another airline.

[CaptKremin]

Ryanair offers them the most competitive wages

You joined tonight - to make this - your first post?
Another of O'Learys lackies.:hmm:

[captplaystation]

CaptKremin,
Nothing whatsoever to do with backbone. As rubik101 & I have suggested open your eyes.
Look around you at what you have at your disposal for ( as a colleague put to me ) an "army". You, my friend, are an army of 1, along with anyone else who is still harbouring this idea of finding " unity" amongst our colleagues.
It isn't defeatism, it is accepting reality.

Look , at the different factions you have at your disposal.
1 - Brand new cadets, deeply in debt, very very grateful that their first job is on a shiny Boeing totally unable to participate in any industrial action, and ,until they are screwed over, many blissfully unaware of why anyone would even want to.
2 - the same guy a couple of years later. A marketable commodity, he is either in a base he likes, applying to Emirates, or looking at taking a Sim job at EMA to further his career.
3 -two years later he has either gone, or is looking at a command upgrade soon. He won't rock the boat.
4 - another year or two, he has accepted to be LTC followed by IRE/TRE ( all available rather too fast in reality, but great for him whether he stays or moves) or, yet again he has gone to pastures new
5 - if he is still around after all this he either thinks it's OK, realises that the grass elsewhere is in many cases just a different shade of brown,or he becomes bitter & twisted and wastes half his spare time frequenting PPRuNe & REPAweb. He also realises by speaking to his colleagues, that, whilst they are more than willing to have a good old winge in the cruise, when you actually ask them to do anything ( even join a union) they fade away.

This company is populated with bods who have either always from Day1 cared only about self interest, and see a very ripe environment for self promotion around them as long as they just forget the big picture, and others, who used to feel like you, but have just become dissillusioned by the lack of any progress by BALPA/IALPA culminating last year in the failure of BALPA to press for recognition at a time when the numbers were ( for once and probably only just this once ) enough for it to work, and the failure of the Irish courts to make a logical judgement on the labour court case. To this we can add cultural and geographical disparity, which makes even harder the task of any coordinated response, and even easier the task of those who would wish to quell it.
The army is decimated,not entirely due to lack ( as you would have it ) of backbone. It is fed up of promises unfulfilled, of seeing people turning coat either because a carrot was dangled or they simply got fed up of waiting for the promised land which never came.
In the current job situation very few people will even contemplate rocking the boat, particularly a new guy with big debts and few hours, and all the time the company experience levels go down, and the proportion of newbees goes up.
Is this really the scenario to take a fight to Ryanair ?
Do you really think the Irish government are really gonna stick it up Micky who brings so much income into Ireland and is employing so many people in a defunct industry at a difficult time.
For chrissakes man, GET REAL.

[N14HK]

Ryanair and some of it's pilots obviously lack integrity, and in the case of many of it's pilots lack any sense of professional pride.

For these reasons I will not book any flights with said airline and will refuse any duty travel on Ryanair at my company's behest until such time as union recognition is achieved.

I think it may well be a long time before I set foot on a Ryanair aircraft.

[bia botal]

well N14HK, the way other airlines are failing, it maybe ryanair or the boat. oh watch out though, not many sailors in the union these days. get the bus so!!!

[the grim repa]

look folks,if you do not have the bottle for fight and if you have given up hope.step to one side and let those of us who still wish to fight for our futures and livelihoods get on with it.i find it nauseating to hear such downtrodden,we can never stand up for ourselves bull!!!!.nauseating because it is not true and also because it comes from the mouths of those who have most to lose.maybe instead of wonderful diatribes about why and how we are doomed.we might start to look the difference we can make.if you think in your mind that all is lost.then for you it is lost.for me,it is not and fight on i will.

better an army of one with head held high than a multitude of defeated!!!be leaders not sheep.

[captplaystation]

Defeatist or Realist ?

the jury is out on that one, and why ? in the last 6 years, because that is all I have personal experience of ( although I do know the history involving Mr Duffy etc don't worry) what have we achieved in RYR ?
We have REPA, which has been useful as a vehicle of communication.
We have seen some fairly high profile court cases won for individuals, but lost in the case of the one that mattered to all of us i.e. the labour court.
A colleague who has been here 10 years tells me his real take-home income has decreased by 40% in that time.
Most other companies have copied all or some of our methods for "rewarding" their workforce, making it all seem quite "normal" to a wider audience.
Union membership is where exactly in comparison to 6 or 10 years ago ?
A far higher %ge of our pilot work-force than ever, are brand new, uneducated in aviation ,familiar only with the ways of RYR , and frankly don't want to do anything to upset the apple cart, in part because of their financial position, many with enormous debt.
Ask yourself again, I don't need to because I am pretty convinced,

Defeatist or Realist ?

I didn't, like rubik101 said too, say I liked the situation, I just don't think YOU want to see it as it is, instead of as you would wish it to be.
And until you see it, and the limitations it forces on any action you think will happen ,you just come across as a loose cannon blinkered to the fact that the enemy is not just RYR but also the situation that has been allowed to develop unchecked this past 10 years. They are greedy ruthless people, but finally who let them walk all over us unchecked, do you think the self same people are suddenly going to see the light and rise up to defend themselves. It is nice to have a dream, but for your own mental well being and blood pressure keep things in perspective, it ain't going to be anytime soon that the mouse roars. . . regretably. I very much doubt that any legislation that is going to be enacted won't place the onus on the workers organising and fighting their corner. I admire your determination to achieve that, but I can't help feeling that too many of the other 1800 (?) are going to let you down for it to be realised, sorry but that is how it looks if you open your eyes to your colleagues current and past commitment to the cause.

[cockney steve]

That's it, REPA!!!:D you tell 'em!


The way forward, folks, is band together, stand fast, stick out for better wages and conditions and MAKE MOL put up his fares to pay for it all......What? the greedy pax won't pay? MOL is ROLLING in cash! he can AFFORD to keep his airline going through the recession, so he can AFFORD to pay you more NOW.

Whadda you mean, he only makes a fair return on capital? only flies shiny new tin tubes........make the bugger fly older cheaper stuff like other Lo Co operators.

Aorry, It's an open market....If the RYR package was so 5h1tty, he'd have severe staff problems.....I didn't see that when I flew with them!

Smart plane smart staff, did a professional job at a price I could afford. OK so the checkin to boarding experience wasn't "red-carpet" but I got what I paid for.

MOL provides a service which the market demonstrably wants.

enough trained personnel are happy to accept his employment terms.
People have jobs, MOL makes money.

Green-eyed jealousy or resentment will not alter the picture.....poking the government oar in, will mess with the bottom-line...if costs rise, there will be no competitive advantage.

Open your eyes! there's plenty of defunct airlines who treated their staff much more generously......bet all those who are currently twiddling their thumbs, are wondering if they shouldn't have foregone "jam today" for "bread tomorrow." MOL has a well -stocked cupboard, he'll keep a good few mouths fed during the bleak time ahead.

I've no dog in this fight, but maybe some of you are lost among the trees and can't see the forest.

[rubik101]

Kremin, please explain how, after reading this;

(5) Anti-Victimisation Legislation:

Legislation to prohibit victimisation, including dismissal and incentivisation, and to provide effective protection and means of redress to employees when engaged in the proper and legitimate exercise of their rights to trade union membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, or non-membership, or a manager discharging his or her managerial functions, will be brought forward with a view to its enactment by March 2009.

You wrote this?


As a result, from next March, new legislation will be in place making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union. This legislation was demanded by the unions specifically to deal with the bullying and blackguarding that goes on in Ryanair.

From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail.

Pack your bags Micko

What a leap of fantasy that encourages you to gleefully burst into print.

You still fail, yet again, efter having had this pointed out to you on many, many occasions, that unless there is a union in the company, the above mentioned legislation becomes moot, useless, inapproriate, just so much hot air.

N14HK writes;

Ryanair and some of it's pilots obviously lack integrity, and in the case of many of it's pilots lack any sense of professional pride.

For these reasons I will not book any flights with said airline and will refuse any duty travel on Ryanair at my company's behest until such time as union recognition is achieved.

I think it may well be a long time before I set foot on a Ryanair aircraft.

Please tell me which airline you work for? My shredded and insignificant integrity would shudder at the thought that such a bigotted, narrow-minded, overbearingly pompous ass as you so obviously are might have your greasy but oh so professional palms on the controls.

Sad individuals...

[CaptKremin]

Go back and read the quotes from the agreement. I posted two clauses.

Clause 4 will secure the principal of Collective Bargaining.
Clause 5 will set out the sanctions against delinquent employers.

By the way, you pair seem to infer that the moment this legislation is in place I expect you all to go on strike. No such thing! Small steps first. If Micko won't meet the IALPA President to discuss the Collective Bargaining procedures he's straight into default under clause 5. You won't even have to peep out from under your shell. Others will do your dirty work. I'm sure you'll be happy to collect the benefits they gain for you.:hmm:

[captplaystation]

The level of audience participation is so high that the last post on REPAweb was 24th @1300 i.e. 50hrs ago.
Must be great to be so apathetic, I am not & never have been ,but be aware how many are before you count on them.
CaptK, I truly hope that your faith in this legislation is well founded, ways have been found in the past to dilute/circumvent issues like this, don't be too shocked if they are "allowed" to yet again by the powers that be in government.

[bear11]

OK, one last attempt at spelling it out for the fantasists with selective amnesia, and also to help explain context to those outside of Ireland why this won't happen...

We have a constitution here - it allows workers to join a union, but (and this has been tested on more than one accasion in our supreme court) employers have a constitutional right not to recognise the union.

Over half of our manufacturing employees in Ireland work for foreign-owned industry, including a large list of US multinationals in the IT and pharma business - Ireland Inc has actively looked for this business over the last 30 years. The vast majority of these companies do not have or want any unions involved - that was the deal when they started up. Many of these jobs are under serious pressure currently as companies move on to other lower-wage economies, eg; Dell are within a whisker of shutting a very large manufacturing plant in Limerick.

Irish unions have lost significant ground as a result, to the extent that as of last year, only 35% of full-time and only 19% of part-timer workers are members of a union (numbers are relatively stable, but very few of the new jobs made add to the union count). To add to this, Ryanair as usual has taken full advantage and went out of its way to aggravate SIPTU/IALPA over the years. The government was pressured as a result to bring in new legislation which would allow collective bargaining (if not union recognition) by the back door in using our labour court - to a certain extent, Ryanair brought this on themselves. Despite an initial win in the high court by SIPTU/IALPA, this new legislation was blown out by the supreme court as they saw it as de facto union recognition. SIPTU/IALPA subsequently walked away from a court case without informing their members first, which, as others have pointed out, has led to mass disillusionment with the exception of a few die-hards who you frequently read on prune.

Cue the recent pay talks here, and our friends in SIPTU made it a "deal breaker" that there must be union recognition as part of the deal. Instead of doing something concrete which can't be done (we all know a nod is as good as a wink to a blind man), we now have clause 4 and clause 5. At the risk of boring you to death, 4 says:

The Government will enact legislation, in June of 2009, to enable the mechanisms which were established in the “2004 Act” to operate as originally intended prior to the Supreme Court decision in the Ryanair case. This will be preceded by a review process which will consider the legal and other steps involved. This will be concluded by the end of March 2009.

Note the "review process", and the "consider the legal and other steps involved" - if that doesn't get your bull!!!! meter off the scale, check your pulse. Apart from that, trying to operate the 2004 act as originally intended means de facto collective bargaining (but NOT union recognition) by the back door, and we've already seen what the supreme court thinks of that. Clause 5 tries to make up for it by bringing in anti-victimisation legislation, it's about all they can do to put some manners on Ryanair.

So, we have pilots in Ryanair who were led up the garden path by IALPA, who themselves were led up the Swanee by a bunch of lawyers, who choose to interpret this as meaning that Ryanair will have to recognise IALPA sometime in 2009. Plus, we have SIPTU and other unions who are desperate to get more membership using the "result" of the recent pay talks to go on a recruitment drive, in an economy already in recession that now depends hugely on non-unionised foreign investment.

Up the workers, indeed.

[Tooloose]

I know I am at risk of being accused of being pedantic, bear11, but would you mind explaining for the uninitiated what you mean by SIPTU/IALPA?

[Bose Wave]

I agree wil rubik101 sadly, this is how it will be:hmm:

[Murray_NN]

My tupence worth...
Easy=union recognition=company losing
Ryanair=no union=still making money

My point is that in current climate I feel lucky to have a job and my company making a profit rather than union recognition. But I would welcome a union once the industry is in a stable situation.

[CaptKremin]

If FR is your best and only option - maybe you should feel lucky you have a job. Its your fate.

24 hours later Bear still hasn't figured out the answer to the SIPTU question. Perhaps he's more confused than he realises.

Bear - I see UNITE has recommended its members reject the Draft NWA on the grounds of insufficient guarentees on Union recognition and collective bargaining. Perhaps they've been reading PPRuNe and you've convinced them that the deal really isn't gonna do what it says on the tin!

Fair enough then - back to the drawing board. We'll just keep kicking until that door is bust wide open. Its gonna happen - or the country will be on its knees by next summer, I promise you that. Sense will prevail.