Unions to kick down door at FR

[CaptKremin]

The Irish Government has just finished brokering a new National Wage Deal between the countries unions and employers. The unions realised that pay increases are problematic at present (though they acheived 6% over 3 years) and concentrated instead on changes to workers rights legislation.

As a result, from next March, new legislation will be in place making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union. This legislation was demanded by the unions specifically to deal with the bullying and blackguarding that goes on in Ryanair.

From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail.

Pack your bags Micko!

[AltFlaps]

Firstly, I loathe the likes of O'Leary.
He makes lawyers and estate agents look like descent charitable human beings.

However, O'Leary is not stupid, and anyone covered in so much slimy scum will always wriggle free.

[CaptKremin]

Not this time.
The Irish Government needs industrial peace, so the legislation better work, or they'll have Armageddon on their hands next year.

O'Learys bullyboy days are numbered.

[Just a spotter]

CaptKremin

I think you are getting ahead of yourself a little.

The official line from The Department of the Taoiseach (Prime Minister) on the points of agreement on Union membership in the agreement are;

Setting up a time-bound process in which the issue of employee representation and the appropriate legislative framework will be addressed;

The introduction of a statutory prohibition on the victimisation of employees based on their membership or non-membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, and on incentivising non-membership of trade unions;

JAS

[GlueBall]

For the life of me, I still can't comprehend how all of you guys [pilots] put up with having to pay for your coffee. You do need a union.

[Taildragger67]

For the life of me, I still can't comprehend how all of you guys [pilots] put up with having to pay for your coffee

... or pens, or teabags, or lunch. It ain't just the pilots who have to pay mill owner for permission to come to work.

[rubik101]

Cpt Kremin
O'Leary will be cold in hell before any union darkens his doorway in Dublin.
He has ignored the EU laws for the past ten years so what makes you think that the Irish Gov't will have any more effect on him?

Arranging a vote at any base will be nigh on impossible.
Any base that votes for a union will be closed.

Next base please........Oh, you don't want to vote.....OK

End of story.

[CaptKremin]

Setting up a time-bound process in which the issue of employee representation and the appropriate legislative framework will be addressed;

The Irish Times version includes the timeframe - March 2009.
D-Day!

The introduction of a statutory prohibition on the victimisation of employees based on their membership or non-membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, and on incentivising non-membership of trade unions;

Sounds excellent. Whats your problem?

Cpt Kremin
O'Leary will be cold in hell before any union darkens his doorway in Dublin.
He has ignored the EU laws for the past ten years so what makes you think that the Irish Gov't will have any more effect on him?

Arranging a vote at any base will be nigh on impossible.
Any base that votes for a union will be closed.

Next base please........Oh, you don't want to vote.....OK

End of story.

Oh, I know he'll wriggle. But closing the Dublin base is not an option. He likes to spin the myth that he's an 'Irish Airline'. I think the Irish public would feel terribly abandoned and let down.

Besides which - if FR bucks off, there's always ALT. They'll gladly fill his boots! I'm sure the FR guys would be happy to work for a unionised airline with decent salaries and conditions, and a bit of respect.

He'd be more likely to try some delaying tactics in the Courts, but the new legislation also has a built in review incorporated in it. If it is wallowing - the NWA falls.

The government hate Ducksy anyhow - I don't see them sticking their necks out to save his. Not with the whole country sliding down the pan as a result.

[bia botal]

He'd be more likely to try some delaying tactics in the Courts, but the new legislation also has a built in review incorporated in it. If it is wallowing - the NWA falls.

oh great does that mean that we in dublin have to go through more years of ****e so that the rest can provail. dream F$%ken on captkremin. it is never going to happen.

[bear11]

Fantasy - how do you manage to connect "making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union" with "From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail"? Where does it say that MOL has to recognise any union, even if he can be slapped for trying to intimidate or punish his employees who are in one?

Any decision to make union recognition compulsory has been fobbed off to a review process in 2009, despite it being a SIPTU "deal breaker" in the talks process. The unions have pushed very hard for years to make recognition compulsory - like it or not, the fact is that Irish Government did a deal with the many multinational employers in this country which does not allow collective bargaining, giving that away now to keep you happy would lose other jobs in Ireland, and effectively wipe out future investment in that sector. You don't live in a vacuum - build a bridge and get over it.

[v6g]

MOL has proved himself to be a very astute businessman, partly by always being one step ahead of government regulation.

I find it hard to believe that union recognition will soon be on the way given that the lack of collective bargaining of his work force is a supporting pillar of his business plan.

[sweeper]

are all you guys new?
nothing in the pretty rhetoric from the recent "agreement" will inhibit the implentation of any hard nosed business "adjustment" in the airline business, even if actioned by (deleted) mol. (deletion in reference to basic common manners, not business ability)
get real people......

[Just a spotter]

Folks,

before any of you get all excited about the prospect of any new legislation from the Dáil, have a quick read of the Irish Constitution, in particular Article 40, section 6. (and no I'm not a lawyer, but did have some legal studies when I was in college)

This might be a double edged sword to CaptainK's expectations.

It is already a right enshrined in the Constitution to form and join a trade union. It is also a right to express an opinion (within reason) and to assemble/associate. However, on this last one, the assembly and association, the courts some time back ruled that the corollary to the right to assemble/associate was the right to not assemble/associate, (can't remember the case but, funnily enough IIRC it was do to with union membership) hence you can't have a law to force you to turn up and vote in Ireland, nor can you force people to become a member of a union (making it a condition of joining a company before you start your employment is a different thing), nor can you force an organisation to deal with a union.

Any legislation would, in my non legal professional opinion, undoubtedly face a constitutional challenge.

JAS

[rubik101]

Kremin, you live in a dream world of the power of the unions.
I repeat, Ryanair will never recognise a union for the reasons stated earlier. Just which Union is it that you envisage 'kicking down the door'?

BALPA......................forget it.
IFALPA.....................not again.

Ryanair will fold before a union rep gets through the door.

And next week, a new airline will arise from the ashes with all freelance contracts/Brookfield and unions will be as much use as fire lighters in hell.

or union members in Ryanair.......................

dream on

[merlinxx]

How are going to unite Europe?

You gonna get every base unionised? I doubt it, but do try. We have hope for you.

[CaptKremin]

- how do you manage to connect "making it illegal to intimidate or punish employees wishing to set up a union" with "From next March O'Leary will find himself faced with recognising IALPA or spending time in Mountjoy Jail"?

How? Can't you figure it out for yourself smartarse?
O'Leary has been faced with imprisonment before - didn't you know? There are pictures in the public domain of a very worried looking Ducksy arriving at the Four Courts in Dublin with his overnight bag.
It was that close.
Contempt of Court is one way to get yourself thrown in the clink double-quick, and since O'Leary has contempt for EVERYONE he is inevitably doomed to repeating his contempt.

Where does it say that MOL has to recognise any union, even if he can be slapped for trying to intimidate or punish his employees who are in one?

Extract from the new National Wage Agreement:

(4) Collective Bargaining:

The Government will enact legislation, in June of 2009, to enable the mechanisms which were established in the “2004 Act” to operate as originally intended prior to the Supreme Court decision in the Ryanair case. (and if that ain't a hint - you're a cretin) This will be preceded by a review process which will consider the legal and other steps involved. This will be concluded by the end of March 2009.


Here is the 2004 Act:

http://www.entemp.ie/publications/em...iscprivact.pdf

I draw your attention to S.8, Industrial Relations Act 2004, Miscellaneous Provisions. This is the section of the Act which the new agreement will affect. The intent is merely to rectify the flaws in the original to make it fully binding - and to prevent worms like O'Leary wriggling out.

Any decision to make union recognition compulsory has been fobbed off to a review process in 2009, despite it being a SIPTU "deal breaker" in the talks process.

You have your wires crossed old pal. You're referring to a different element of the agreement, and 2009 is just 3 months away.
My, how time flies!

(5) Anti-Victimisation Legislation:

Legislation to prohibit victimisation, including dismissal and incentivisation, and to provide effective protection and means of redress to employees when engaged in the proper and legitimate exercise of their rights to trade union membership or activity on behalf of a trade union, or non-membership, or a manager discharging his or her managerial functions, will be brought forward with a view to its enactment by March 2009.

That seems clear enough to me!

I find it hard to believe that union recognition will soon be on the way given that the lack of collective bargaining of his work force is a supporting pillar of his business plan.

Heck - what's he gonna do now? Now that that 'pillar' is about to be kicked away.

....the courts some time back ruled that the corollary to the right to assemble/associate was the right to not assemble/associate ....you can't have a law to force you to turn up and vote in Ireland, nor can you force people to become a member of a union (????)

Where do you get this idea about anyone being forced to JOIN a union?
The only force being used is by O'Leary.
When the union gets up and running in FR - no force will be necessary to find recruits. They'll come running. Especially after the slashing O'Leary is preparing for this winter.

...... nor can you force an organisation to deal with a union.

So, in your unqualified opinion - the 2004 Act is unconstitutional, and all the preparatory work done by the AG, the Government, The Unions, IBEC and their respective legal advisors - is also wrong. Because you know better.

Well, good luck making that one stick.

[rubik101]

Kremin, you miss the point; O'Leary will never have to deal with a union in Ryanair because there never will be a union in Ryanair. You don't seem to read the posts thoroughly.
Pilots voting for a union in Ryanair is like signing your own P45 or turkeys for more Christmas days!
It just won't happen.
All your posturing about the power of the union and EU laws etc. amount for nothing if there is no union to use them.
I'll tell you what; you go and kick his door in and let us all know how you got on. OK?

[Just a spotter]

CaptK,

here is a legal professionals opinion, prior to the determination of the "Ryanair case", from a well respected legal firm.

Trade union recognition - mandatory? - William Fry, Solicitors, Ireland's Leading Business Law Firm

JAS

[bear11]

JAS, don't waste your breath - despite Ryanair being in business over 23 years without a union, having a constitutional right not to have to recognise unions, Kremin's own union walking away from court on the issue which disillusioned most of his comrades completely, and despite the fact that SIPTU attempting to force the government allow union recognition would lead to a loss of jobs and job development in other multinational industries in Ireland (not that Kremin obviously gives a sh*te), Kremin should be allowed keep his head stuck up his empennage and ignore reality.

And no Kremin, I'm not anti-union, I simply have a real problem in this case with SIPTU/IALPA who are being irresponsible by insisting on something that can't be done which would have a knock-on effect on workers and jobs in other areas of the economy here - not that SIPTU give a monkey's about the other workers under pressure in HP/Dell/INTEL etc as they ain't in a union.

[CaptKremin]

CaptK,

here is a legal professionals opinion, prior to the determination of the "Ryanair case", from a well respected legal firm.

Trade union recognition - mandatory? - William Fry, Solicitors, Ireland's Leading Business Law Firm

JAS

Interesting article JAS, as far as it goes. But all it does is relate the history of how we got to where we are. The new legislation will write another paragraph on that article. The history of how the previous legislation was modified to actually work.

As for a Constitutional challenge - it may be a possibility. Who knows what mad Mick would try. I'd call that grasping at straws.
There is a new mood abroad in the land. Lots of people are going to lose their jobs and livelihoods in the next 2 years. I think its sinking in that the rampant capitalism championed by O'Leary and the PD's has brought us to these dire straits.
If its constitutionality was ever tested, I have the feeling the action would be kicked out of court, just like the PD's have been kicked out of office, and out of existence.

And no Kremin, I'm not anti-union, I simply have a real problem in this case with SIPTU/IALPA who are being irresponsible by insisting on something that can't be done which would have a knock-on effect on workers and jobs in other areas of the economy here - not that SIPTU give a monkey's about the other workers under pressure in HP/Dell/INTEL etc as they ain't in a union.

As to the HP/Dell/INTEL workers who aren't in a union - the question is WHY NOT? You have me confused - on the one hand you condemn the unions for 'doing nothing' for non-union workers, while at the same time you seem to be opposing the introduction of legislation that would allow their unionisation.
I'm pretty sure the reason Intel workers are not unionised is THATS THEIR OWN CHOICE. Intel have traditionally been one of the best employers in the state, and I'm quite sure Dell and HP have been equally good to work for. If those workers are happy - let them stay out of unions.

I said it before, no union is FORCING membership on anyone. This is about the RIGHT to form a union and have it RECOGNISED by your employer.

attempting to force the government allow union recognition would lead to a loss of jobs and job development in other multinational industries in Ireland

I challenge you to provide a single shred of evidence to substantiate that claim.

not that Kremin obviously gives a sh*te

On the contrary, it is patently you who doesn't 'give a sh*te' about the employees of those companies.
If they feel they need a union, why do you wish to stop them?
'For their own good' you seem to say! How arrogant!

Are you going to stand as judge and jury over others as to 'whats good for them'? It's a blatant 'I'm alright Jack' attitude.
You seek to deny others the job satisfaction you seem to have!
Get off your high horse.