Forced unpaid leave at ryanair

[whatthehellwasthat]

To: All Pilots

Date: 15th September 2008
Re: Recruitment Freeze
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,
We have recently been inundated with applications from pilots whose employers (such as Zoom, Futura and XL) have gone bust in the past few weeks. We are also receiving applications from pilots who fear that their airline may go bankrupt shortly.

Since we already have more than treble the applications we require for our possible future needs we have decided to impose a recruitment freeze with immediate effect (from 15th September) until further notice. This freeze will be reviewed again in early January 2009. Training courses already scheduled for October will be run as planned, however no further recruits will be added
to these courses.

Delayed aircraft deliveries due to the Boeing strike and a close to zero pilot attrition rate in recent months means that we are currently overstaffed in our pilot/flight operations department.We will continue to seek unpaid winter leave applications, particularly at our largest bases,Dublin and Stansted, where our winter base aircraft numbers have been reduced. If we do not receive sufficient applications on/before the end of September, then we will allocate unpaid leave to some Dublin and Stansted based pilots from November onwards.

If you wish to apply for unpaid leave, please contact ***** *****
before the end of September.

As always, even during these extremely difficult times, our focus will be upon maintaining jobs and the security of employment of all our pilots and people.

Best regards

[Viking101]

:confused: Well interesting to go out with a public announcement on Pprune :eek:

Anyway, thanks for info. Just one thing- how do we know this is a real post, and not someone at home with too much spare time and wannabe attitude?

Reference please :suspect:

[SD.]

It's a real post, although I'm not too sure why someone would post up a company internal memo.

[Bat Fastard]

Because it's very interesting to almost all of us.

[ICEHOUSES]

Because its a pilot rumour network..what do you expect on these pages.. sport news? :confused:

[rubik101]

And quite what is the point of posting the item in the first place?
Trying to intimate that Ryanair is about to go bust?
Trying to convince us that pilots are getting it in the neck in Ryanair?
I am at a loss as to why you would wish to publicise the fact that Ryanair is doing what any sensible airline would do in the quieter winter months.
For heaven's sake, get some perspective here.
As you obviously work for the company, then pray tell me what you hope to achieve by putting this post here in the first place?

[Tandemrotor]

Ryanair is doing what any sensible airline would do in the quieter winter months.

I'm not aware of any other airline imposing 'unpaid leave' on pilots?

That doesn't mean nobody else is, just that I haven't heard of it.

It certainly doesn't sound like the actions of a 'caring' employer!:rolleyes: After all, I thought this was a company with massive cash reserves???:suspect:

Sounds like a number of pilots are going to to be using some 'cash reserves', in order to excuse MOL from using his! :D

[KENNEDY TOWER]

Rubic 101,

Excellent post, thank you for putting things in perspective.:cool:

Well done from someone obviously knows what he is talking about---for a change!

[Der absolute Hammer]

rubik 101

Perhaps just to keep Ryan e mail box and postal box a little clearer?
Makes room for all the Christmas cards they get for keeping pilots in work?

[merlinxx]

Why not call it 'being furloughed'? Happens enough in the Western Cousin's land.

[Der absolute Hammer]

Study leave?
One company I worked for.....
All first officers have unpaid study leave for ATPL exam.
Captains double up in cockpit.
No problems, probably could not do this now in Europe.
Ha! But sometimes there is one Captain that really does not like being in First Officer seat !

[Sir Richard]

Different companies have different methods of reducing costs when times are hard.

Some years ago the majority of BA Pilots accepted a near 5% annual paycut so that a minority of volunteer pilots could take half pay leave for a few months. (As negotiated by BALPA). A little pain for everyone saves a lot of pain for a few. I don't recall if other groups in BA had the same "deal".

[spinnaker]

Assuming the OP is genuine, why does the memo mention job applications and bankrupt airlines in the first paragraph, when the whole thing is about taking leave?

Unless if missed something, it looks to me like a thinly veiled threat. OK late deliveries and a downturn means the company has to do something, so they need the co-operation of the workforce. The tone of the memo seems abrasive.

[angels]

Rubik - I don't get it. The post is interesting, even to SLF such as myself. If it's a wind-up then FR's lawyers will have been onto Pprune like a shot as they have in the past.

In fairness to FR they're warning the pilots that something may (or may not) happen. The letter explains why. If you reckon the publication of the letter here is trying to intimate that FR is going bust then your logic baffles me. If anything I would say it was the reverse.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Rubik,

I don't get it either. FR are going to lay off pilots - so all of a sudden no job with no pay (and you have no choice), and this is not of interest?

It is of interest, to pilots considering FR and pilots who work for other airlines whose management may look to FR as some kind of grim role model.

Good luck to those pilots at DUB and STN who may find themselves bereft of any income at Christmas.

[Der absolute Hammer]

It is no job and no pay but you get job back when good times roll again.
It is not the same as no job, end of saga. As merlinxx said, it is a furlough.
Try to dig up short term contract work in the sun over winter?

[kick the tires]

Look on the bright side - Ryanair can lay off Rubik with no pay for a few months and he will THANK THEM for the priviledge!!!!!

[HundredPercentPlease]

It is not the same as no job, end of saga. As merlinxx said, it is a furlough.

Yes - in the UK we call it being laid off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Layoff#United_Kingdom).

[Callsign Kilo]

I wouldn't be suprised that measures like these will be unique to the likes of FR in the coming weeks/months. Winter has always been a particularly lean time for many operators, however recent occurences will mean that this winter becomes a quest for survival for many. You can see what some airlines are doing by just visiting a few of their websites "Summer Sale 2009"
"Pay no taxes or charges" It smacks of an effort in attempting to get money into the bank ASAP.

No one likes to be told that they face unpaid leave, however this will have been nothing new to pilots at both DUB and STN as capacity cuts have been on the cards for quite a while now. As a result the company has asked people to volunteer for a month off. Contractors have had no choice, as this is part and parcel of their contract. I sympathise with everyone in these difficult times, especially my piers in the likes of XL, Zoom, Silverjet and Futura who no longer have their jobs to go to. Unfortunately these guys were offered no alternative, and while I reiterate that the possibility of unpaid leave is hardly favorable, at least it doesn't have a P45 attached to it.

[lgw_warrior]

Is the leave going to be forced on contract pilots only,ie brookfield guys, or pilots who work for Ryanair? if so is this allowed? surely somebody who works for an agency ie brookfield must be made to take leave first, if pilots who work for the actual company are available for work? surely there must be some legal ruling in favour of actual company employe's ,or indeed a breach of contract?

LGwarrior

[Der absolute Hammer]

This is unpaid leave.
So any paid leave already there carries on until back on line flying?
Or first cut of unpaid leave becomes paid leave owing from company?

[autobrake3]

If this a genuine post, I find it ironic and rather presumptuous that Ryanair should use pprune as communication medium with its pilots, especially in light of its previous aggressive dealings with this website.

[ItsAjob]

It's funny how they keep crying about the strike at the Boeing plant causing aircraft shortage. What about the parking of aircraft and route cuts?

[spinnaker]

All explained here (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Employment/RedundancyAndLeavingYourJob/DG_10026693)

[the grim repa]

this is the truth and now the pilots get screwed over again.The amazing thing is that the pilots of ryanair cannot see the reality of their situation and we are now reaping the downside of our colleagues inability to get off their asses and fight for their cause.what a bunch of complete idiots!!!

[BitMoreRightRudder]

So do FR guys have contracts that state they can be laid-off for an unspecified amount of time and be paid absolutely nothing?

[Der absolute Hammer]

If you are Ryanair and laid off you will....

Get your job back?
Have the opportunity to work some where else or have fun. Who knws, perhaps both?
If enough people do not volunteer for laid off then some will be forced to lay off?
If you do not lay off, you will be fired?
If not enough lay off, some will be fired?
If that all is correct, then put affairs in order and prepare for unpaid holiday. Get towel in first for crew on dive boat live aboard in Red Sea.
For sure the company can do this. They give you a chance to keep the job through a bad time.

[captplaystation]

lgw warrior, that indeed is the $20,000 question.

[ICEHOUSES]

Hang on a minute, why would FR want to give pilots unpaid leave when there is xx amount of new aircraft arriving each month and big expansion plans in europe, or is it really the case this business model is failing in current economic climate??

[plain-plane]

The memo is true enough… send out on the company intranet…

Remember it is UNPAID LEAVE, you have not been fired, and you are still employed by the company… FR contracts stipulate that you are not allowed to work for other employers while still an FR employee… and now they will be sending drivers home without pay!!

If you don’t pay.... you don’t get to make the rules…:=

[lgw_warrior]

If this is the case,all training courses should be suspended immediatly!not next month,why even take guys through base training (££££) and line training (££££) when fully qualifed guys are sat at home getting paid squat! again, there has to be some kind of employment law against this,training new guys for your job, whilst not allowing you to work, i think those guys would have potential legal issues with the company.good to see that ryan look after there own !??!! :mad:


LGwarrior

[plain-plane]

This is FR, why, and where, do you think the LAW would come into play:mad:

[littco]

I think you'll find that most of the people taking the training in the next few months, including base and line training will all be contractors, IE new FATPL's on brookfield contracts. Being contractors they are not offically employees of the company and therefore training new guys for your job doesn't count..

These trainees are just a figure on a balance sheet...Sad but true...

[Redline]

Geez... I remember seeing something about most households in the UK being 3 months away from bankruptcy... So these poor guys that are going to be dumped for an unspecified length of time when there is going to be very little opportunity to find a viable alternative income will be totally screwed.

It not sound business, it's ruthless capitalism. All the nutters that keep boasting about however many billions of Euros are in RYR's bank...perhaps it would be nice to use a fraction of it in support of the loyal crews that work for RYR rather than supporting MOL's share options.

Filth, total filth

[captplaystation]

Surprised ? . . . . thought not.
I guess as they are only on unpaid leave not unemployed they can't claim any unemployment benefit, and , as has been said before ,are not "allowed" to work for someone else as they are still employed by Ryanair, although for the ones who are contractors I doubt that would stick.
For the new F/O's struggling to pay off their training debts this is going to be a very tough time, many will also have less than 500 hrs on type which makes them less attractive to potential contract agencies. Hang in there guys there is always Macdonalds. . . again.

[bfisk]

This makes me glad i chose the career route i did -- was offered to pay €30k for a FR course, but declined, and got a B200 job. Doing the TR now, very friendly company and excellent terms and benefits. Paid during rating and a very stable job for years to come...

No work, no money? Call it what you like, being laid off, on unpaid leave, or temporarily fired... stinks anyway. Don't know about you guys but I enjoy money.

[SID PLATE]

C'mon Whatthehellwasthat .... If you're trying to get yourself dismissed for Gross Misconduct, posting an internal RYR memo on here, in full, is a bit feeble. Why not go out in style, and stick one on the Chief Pilot?
Standby for the RYR management backlash, as they try to find the culprit!
Fifty one years old? Based in Essex? .... should narrow it down a bit...

[the_stranger]

Isn't this unpaid leave stuff something which every brookfielder has to go through each year? As far as I know, they have to take 1 unpaid month a year. Maybe that's what the memo is referring to?

[lgw_warrior]

Is this refering to just brookfield contractors? i cant imagine a situation where an employed ryanair pilot is sat at home on unpaid leave,yet a contractor is in operating his flights?it doesnt make any sense and i cant imagine any company willing to suffer the backlash from its pilot employees with such an idea.if so,then its the start of something bad for all of us, ryanair or not , as a pilot community we should stick together on this, if a floating happy go lucky contractor can take our permanent jobs then its the end of the line for this industry, family?job security? doesnt matter, its over fellas!

LGwarrior

[littco]

Next FR will be asking pilots to take a pay cut as American airlines did..Forced unpaid holiday, paycuts all adds upto the same thing!!

[jasonjdr]

LGW,

"if a floating happy go lucky contractor can take our permanent jobs then its the end of the line for this industry"

I'm sorry but what makes you think there has been job security in any industry since Maggie moved into no 10?:rolleyes:

FYI all new pilots to RYR are Brookfields, there is no choice. Once you get the offered command then you can buy out of the contract for a full time position within RYR as an option. So, as far as coming in and taking your jobs are concerned, its tosh mate. We are just newbies trying to get in and have to take the new options or consider another more long winded (and more expensive, when you consider the reduced salaries etc of instructing etc for years, route). Got no desire to rid you of a job (if you are a pilot, or even work for RYR).

BTW whoever posted a confidential internal memo := Naughty boy :=

[Rednex]

Guys calm down!! The reason that memo came with regards to unpaid leave is that the new aircraft are not coming off the factory line in Seattle. There is a strike right now at Boeing and has caused delays in opening new bases and putting more aircraft in existing bases. Because of this the company is trying to save money by first offering unpaid leave and then as he last resort, assigning unpaid leave. Unfortunate but it does say so in your contract since 2002.

[Ali589]

Looks like the Daily Express are keen readers of PPRuNe:

Daily Express | UK News :: Ryanair threatens pilots with unpaid winter leave (http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/62033/Ryanair-threatens-pilots-with-unpaid-winter-leave)

[Happy Wanderer]

Littco - I've heard form a number of different sourses that FR were in the process of instigating paycuts for all employed and Brookfield jocks, but this has been repeatedly denied by those in the know on this forum.

When all is said and done, isn't it better to take a temporary paycut than be laid off?

HW

[RB311]

hi hi implies that FR pilots are unlucky because they don't have a union...

Precisely what would being a union achieve in this situation???

If FR pilots threatened to withdraw their labour, (whatelse would the union suggest??) isn't that precisely what FR want them to do?

[lgw_warrior]

I see the memo made it into the papers today,not very re-assuring for the pax reading that!

[Philip Jones]

What newspaper was it in?

[lgw_warrior]

daily express,sept 18,page 24.

[in my last airline]

I still dont understand how the company can force unpaid leave to full time employees when even a single contractor is working within that base on the day (or days) you have been allocated unpaid leave. Are there any legal flying eagles that can clarify UK employment law in this regard. I have a UK addressed contract and it doesnt say anything about unpaid leave. If I was forced to, BALPA would be called in, I guess that's why I pay them £50 per month. Any thoughts or am I a hopeless dreamer?

[curser]

Regards to all those effected by this, RB311 makes a good point but misses the reason for having a union. Unions don't just threaten to walk out as a default position. A union of Ryan Air Pilots could negotiate at number of unpaid leave positions based on aircraft to remain in service, it might then be in a position to offer this across the FR network, ultimately it might then put in place an exit mechanism for the furloughed pilots that was fair and transparent. less stress, better communication and a nicer place to be. Sadly I suspect this won't happen and with a combination of fear and manipulation those remaining will be a little worse off when its all over, but thats direct negotiation for you.
Rednex, I'm confused perhaps you can help, Ryan Air are parking up airplanes in EGSS and elsewhere but can't open bases because of a Boeing strike? Somewhere, someones not telling the truth.

[curser]

Thanks pressman, I had previously been informed aircraft were already parked up. good luck to all.

[atr209]

pressman.



News (http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/News_1/index.shtml) : International Last Updated: Sep 17, 2008 - 1:21:19 PM
Ryanair to provide aircraft to secure the return of stranded holidaymakers after collapse of XL Airways; Low-fares giant warns about booking "flaky, financially stretched airlines

seems ryanair do have spare aircraft available before november. dont be fooled.

[the grim repa]

are we the dumbest bunch of pilots in the whole world.i cannot believe that some of my colleagues think this is acceptable.i thought this place was low,but i have just seen a pilot assisted new low.accepting unpaid leave and not allowed to work elsewhere.what a bunch of absolute muppets!!!

by the by pressman you are incorrect.there are already planes laid up which could be used for the new bases.the inability to open edinburgh or reus base is an economic decision conveniently blamed on the boeing strike.

[curser]

Grim thanks for clearing that up. Pressman where did you get your information? Grim, what is that about not being able to work elsewhere? I'm not FR staff and so am aghast at the concept, please tell what brilliant new idea they have come up with. regards C.

[potkettleblack]

No doubt MOL is trying to screw Boeing down on price further hence why there is so much noise about the strike and how it is "supposedly" impacting on his new bases. I would hazard an educated guess and say that the economics of the new bases aren't stacking up so delaying them and potentially screwing a better deal from the operators could be on the cards as well. Either way he isn't short of aircraft hence his ability to miracle aircraft out of thin air to "rescue" the XL punters.

[akerosid]

Given that AZ is likely to go under and perhaps one or two others, surely this gives FR opportunities to expand into their markets; can they not ask pilots to transfer to other bases for a certain period, rather than furloughing them over the Winter?

[captplaystation]

"ask" ? not required as all full time contracts state you can be moved to another base at the companies discretion, and contractors are in same boat.
If you don't want to go wherever that may be. . . . there is the door,available to exit.

[jiffajaffa]

Im new enough to Ryanair finished line training a while back and im sick of reading utter nonsense on this page by mostly people who dont fly for FR or who are just part of the USUAL bunch of bashers associated with this site.. RYR pilots and brookfield contractors are still flying and still have a job and a month or 2 unpaid leave is better than having no work at all... think of all the pilots who are out of jobs at this time.. now i wonder what they would prefer?? a month off or no job at all!? The letter states RYR are innundated with other pilots from other airlines fearing for there jobs and im wondering how many are in here bashing?? im wondering (not hoping) if your airline goes bust will you apply for RYR then??? or would you prefer to sit at home all day talking crap about RYR ..no doubt ill fly alot less this winter but who cares once im in a job and im flying every week that i possibly can!!

:ok:

[the grim repa]

well if that does not sum up the entirety of how far the situation has deteriorated in ryanair!for your info newbee,i have over 10 years experience flying in ryanair and i must recommend jiffajaffa for the most brainwashed post of all time.you may be happy to take any old !!!! you are doled out freshmeat,i am not!what a :mad: dodo!!!the mind boggles.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

who cares once im in a job and im flying every week that i possibly can!!


We are all screwed.

[Magh3]

I Totally agree with the above 2 gentlemen..if this is the attitude of the newbees we are f...............................:yuk:

[Gnirren]

Hehe.. sounds like a prime candidate for an upgrade to me, by the time he gets his chance the offer will be pay your own command course, no sector pay for 12 months and a 30% reduction in basic :D

Lube up and push the go-button :ok:

[atr209]

jiffajaffa, its that attitude that is dragging this profession down. dont accept threats like this, know your rights. 2 billion in the bank. you shouldnt be made to pay. I feel for your colleagues who have fought for your terms and conditions and protection...............:ugh: wake up.

[Magh3]

After a good night's sleep I read that post again and I'm thinking we the more senior guys in Fr are failing big time if these wow look an airplane kids are presenting us with this attitude..and believe me this guy is not the only one. Time to wake up

[ShortfinalFred]

Wow! How low can you go? I used to be proud of the career I have choosen, proud to have the responsibility for the lives of others and the capital of my company in my charge, proud of keeping up the standards that my predecessors had set.

Now, well, this is a race "into the sewer", as someone else has posted.

This thread should be posted in the wannabe's forum so that every kid who thought that being a professional pilot was, as it ought to be, a respected, responsible, stable and satisfying career where you have responsibility for the lives of others and millions of dollars worth of investment can see the truth - which is that even the Bus drivers at the depot get better treatment than this.

So RYR are saying that you take unpaid leave and therefore are:

a) unable to draw unemployment benefit
b) still on contract so contractually barred from accepting alternative employment
c) losing recency and experience viz. others all the time you accept it
d) more likely to be replaced by contractors on non-renewable contracts

This makes you an indentured slave!

Who can afford do this? Why would they?

Better still, wannabes take note, even when you come back, your base can be changed at RYR whim at any time. Try telling your spouse that, and the kids.

Madness. RYR have dragged this industry to the depths. They force every one else to follow them down.

I am glad I am where I am in my career because I would never go into this now, and if you are smart enough to pass all the CAA exams, self-motivated and self-disciplined enough to pass the flying tests and driven enough to earn the money to pay RYR to train you to make them money then you are surely smart enough to get a career that has a shred of a chance of being more rewarding financially, more stable socially and for your family, and more secure.

Unbelievable.

[leeds 65]

I think the brookfield guys can draw the dole as the contract states 11 months of work only.small conselation obviously but ill fight it and make sure i at least get money for playing golf everyday:ugh:

[Kempus]

Having commitments the thought of another months unpaid leave scares me!

Are there any other f/o's out there getting extra days leave right now? So far this month I've had an extra 6 days which I didn't ask for or want.
I've averaged 70 hours per month since April so I'm not too high on hours.

Any others getting this?

kempus

[curser]

Jiffajaffa, go immediately and talk to BALPA or IALPA, if you stay in aviation your post and the sentiment it contained will haunt you. You must educate yourself. You owe it to yourself after the money I assume you have spent. Your lack of worldly knowledge is being taken advantage of and thats OK, if you learn from the experience. Your colleagues have expressed some robust views on your post, you may dismiss them all as malcontents if you wish but consider the level of experience they have brought to this discussion. You might think me patronizing, but we have all been where you are now and I wish only to hasten your awakening to the rest of your life.

[45989]

jiffajaffa. Truly a prat. It's spineless morons like you that has this profession where it is.
No morals,ethics or savvy.
You are well suited to your "employer"
.

[Aerospace101]

I dont think jiffajaffa can be to blame for that attitude. Unfortunatley all the people criticising him are pilots who entered the industry years ago, long before the days of having to pay for typeratings and even your own line training. BLAME the SYSTEM or even the AIRLINES and recruiters for this situation with new wannabes.

Most wannabes have to get into ~£100K of debt to get a job nowadays. And for most people finishing with their fATPLS cant even get any jobs now, so quite rightly he/she feels happy JUST TO HAVE A JOB!

So to all those fat cat pilots having a dig at jiffajaffa, its partly your fault we are in this mess by allowing T&Cs to be slowly degraded, not doing your bit with the unions and the cost of airline pilot training to be as high as it is.

It Pi$$es me off seeing some airline leaders who had their pilot training all paid for free and job handed on a plate, sitting back now and watching all the wannabes getting in massive debt for jobs which dont exist.... rant over.

[HundredPercentPlease]

Unfortunatley all the people criticising him are pilots who entered the industry years ago, long before the days of having to pay for typeratings

Wrong.

I paid for my training, and my type rating.

But I still think it's a disgrace for an employee to shout that it's absolutely fine to have salaries stopped for months, at the whim of the employer.

[Aerospace101]

Hundredpercentplease; Ok so not everyone is in that situation. But the majority are, and im not just talking about ryanair. Just about every operator is now.

But I still think it's a disgrace for an employee to shout that it's absolutely fine to have salaries stopped for months, at the whim of the employer.

Reading their post, i dont think they are shouting about its ok to stop salaries for months. Theyre just making the point that its better to have a job, where you might atleast do some flying, than have nothing (like most wannabes today)..

[Gnirren]

I dont think jiffajaffa can be to blame for that attitude. Unfortunatley all the people criticising him are pilots who entered the industry years ago, long before the days of having to pay for typeratings and even your own line training. BLAME the SYSTEM or even the AIRLINES and recruiters for this situation with new wannabes.

Most wannabes have to get into ~£100K of debt to get a job nowadays. And for most people finishing with their fATPLS cant even get any jobs now, so quite rightly he/she feels happy JUST TO HAVE A JOB!

So to all those fat cat pilots having a dig at jiffajaffa, its partly your fault we are in this mess by allowing T&Cs to be slowly degraded, not doing your bit with the unions and the cost of airline pilot training to be as high as it is.

It Pi$$es me off seeing some airline leaders who had their pilot training all paid for free and job handed on a plate, sitting back now and watching all the wannabes getting in massive debt for jobs which dont exist.... rant over.

This is the common argument regarding self-funding of course and I agree. Now I'd bet my medical that 10 years from now our dear jiffajaffa will be enjoying pressure to receive worse terms for his duties as new pilots are standing in line to join the company, willing to accept contracts that to him seem completely mental. So the hamsterwheel turns. Those who benefit from this erosion are companies hiring and the traveling public. Just remember boys and girls that by paying our way in we have no right to gripe when others do the same behind us and we end up being beaten with the stick that landed us employment in the first place. Of course the bridge is burnt already as you say, jobs are harder and harder to find unless you have a rating so we can point the finger until it turns blue but the chicken and egg question will remain I'd say.

Whatever you choose just realize that just as you are prepared to sell yourself for a job, so will there be thousands behind you willing to do the same as you sit snug and happy on the flightdeck, and that will lead to worse pay for you too eventually only this time you didn't ask for it.

[The Real Slim Shady]

i have over 10 years experience flying in ryanair

And still hanging in there moaning so it can't be all that bad!!

Unpaid leave?

Anyone with any sense who is given unpaid leave is simply going to take a 3 month/ 6 month contract elsewhere.

"Can't work for anyone else" ? Get a life!!

Incidentally, I learned a long time ago that when the chips are down pilots will look after #1 and :mad: anyone else. There is no unity: and I mean zero unity. It is everyone for themselves, regardless of whether you work for Ryanair, Globespan, VS,Easy, Monarch, Thomson, bmi or BA.

Take your union and their "support" and shove it.

[Magh3]

I'm afraid the man has a point :D

[FRying]

Ryanair has hundreds of millions of cash in reserve. How vital to the airline is the pressure on the pilots' shoulders ? You don't HAVE to do that to keep FR healthy ! MOL is a multimillionnaire. Isn't he ashame to have to request from people to sign up for such a desperate position ??? He's putting people and families at risk and for this reason he should be taken to court.

[the grim repa]

10 years and maybe foolishly still fighting for change.surrounded by people like slim shady and jiffajaffa.just willing to wave goodbye to their future.what a sorry pathetic bunch of so called pilots,who would let their rights be trodden on for a few quid.console yourselves in the fact that you earn a few thousand quid a month but do not call yourself a professional because you have sold that birthright long back.grow some backbone and some balls.better late than never.

[SD.]

From what I can see, it's mainly FO's that are surplus to requirements and those that do have forced unpaid leave, what exactly are their options?

a) Throw the toys out of the pram and tell MOL to politely stick his job. There's not a great deal of operators hiring around the world right now.
- Jet Air have plenty of 738's but I'm led to believe they won't hire non-Indian FO's now.
- Flydubai is not a viable option right now and may have too high minimums for recent RYR new joiners.
- Closer to home, XL was a bigish 73 operator and have put a load of experienced 738 drivers on the market.

The problem is that inexperienced FO's are like pebbles on a beach and MOL knows that. 100 FO's could quit in the morning, and he knows that there will be 4 times that amount waiting to fill their position.

b) Sit tight and ride out the winter and wait for the 'Boeing strikes' (tongue firmly placed in cheek) to end and wait for the flying to pick up.

IF I was told to go home and come back in 3 months time, there is no way that I would keep my feet on terra firma. Either a 152 or 738 I need to earn a living, contract or no contract.

[Tripitaka]

In some posters opinion Ryanair are doing something completely unacceptable, so what are they prepared to do about it? Will they strike on behalf of the RYN pilots?

There's an attitude out there of "well they joined the place, they deserve whatever they get". So RYN pilots are on their own, F/O's knowing there's a queue of people willing to take their place if they step out of line. I'm not just talking about new guys straight out of flight school, I personally know 2 ex-XL guys who are trying their best to get into RYN even though in the past they held the same views as the posters I mentioned. We've been told that RYN have received masses of applications since XL, Zoom, and Futura went under and I fully believe it. If YOU were sacked with a mortgage to pay and a family to support, would you take RYN's euro if it was the only one on offer?

I used to work for a small, well thought of lowcost and still keep in touch with some of the folks there. I've heard some of the schemes management have and will be introducing, and if RYN did it there'd be outrage. The RYN required fuel policy...happened there first and with less leeway. I won't divulge the other policies as they're not public knowledge and do not affect safety, however because it's friendly little "x" airline then it's things that have to be endured if they're to survive :o0

So, hundreds of people behind them waiting to snap up their job, and the knowledge that the rest of the pilot community (rightly or wrongly) won't support them, what do you suggest the RYN pilots do? I'm expecting a lot of "they made their own beds/dug their own graves" and that's the point. I think it instils the old Millwall attitude...everyone hates us and we don't care.

Good on ya Grim, keep fighting the good fight but understand that the new guys there have a lot fewer (zero) job opportunities than yourself outside RYN.

Oh, and if there's a moderator reading do you really think that "In a word, filth. You make me sick." is acceptable, or only when people are responding to RYN posters? :=

[the grim repa]

well razor,that may well be the case.it doesn't detract from what i say being true.i do not assume everyone is an idiot,but when presented continously with evidence to support an assumption that most of ryanair pilots are idiots,then it is difficult to draw any other conclusion.good first post though!!!

[curser]

Slim what a sad and disparaging perspective on life and your colleagues you have. Because you have never had any support and more importantly never had the courage to support your fellow does not mean it does not exist. Kudos to the likes of Grim who sees that a problem exists and works to change the system. Why are Jiffajaffa and his ilk going to suffer now? Not because of any union but because some of his colleagues have rationalized an avaricious,conniving and twisted mind set into a dog eat dog scenario in which only by keeping him down will they get theirs.

[Callsign Kilo]

Wannabees go in to this profession knowing two things: It's going to cost them a lot and it's going to be difficult to get a job. From day dot when they turn up at whatever FTO it may be the main topic is 'how much is it going to cost me to gain employment.' When it became the industry standard for people to 'pay their way' then, in my opinion, it just became a free for all. Bang - the SSTR arrives, Pay for Line Training Schemes are set up, FTOs and Airlines affiliating themselves with certain TRTOs in order to make a quick buck and squeeze Joe Bloggs Wannabee a bit further. I remember starting flight training in 2005 when the industry was booming. Easyjet and Ryanair were desperate to put arses in the seats of their shiney new Boeings and Buses. But not at cost to themselves, and certainly not with massive salaries and attractive terms and conditions. We were all told that such and such are hiring and this is what you need to do. At no point does any FTO or TRTO say hey 'stand up for your positions and join BALPA and fight your case.' No one mutters, 'You shouldn't have to pay for that, stand your ground.' Unfortunately the majority of wannabees now believe that paying their way along with the current levels of T&Cs are now the norm and have accepted it. I too must be guilty and therefore also have no backbone as I paid for the SSTR. On the other side, I know guys who didn't (and I am in no way be judgemental here) and they still have no employment, their ratings are lapsing and their currency is fading by the day. I'm not saying this applies to everyone, however it's a pretty standard issue now.

[bia botal]

Jiffajaffa, go immediately and talk to BALPA or IALPA,

Yeah funny thing that, see i did that, joined IALPA, got educated, boy did i, went to all the meetings, fell in line with everyone else, got no pay increase for 2 years,saw the punishment in my sector pay, listen to the bull:mad: from people that are now training captains about strike action, all with a feel of confidence that we had all the cards staked in our favor.

THEN I WATCH IN TOTAL DISBELIEF as they ask MOL to move aside, and took over shafting us. We can all come on here and yell and scream about how :mad: up the situation is, but after seeing how well the union help us in the past i don't see that there is a single thing that we can do about it.

And don't give me any of that bull:mad: about "the union can only help you if you are prepared to go all the way" because i and many many more where, and grim repa if you where sitting in the ALSSA the day that they tried to weasel out of the mess they got us into you will now exactly what i am talking about. it will be in court in may,, it will be in court in nov,, in will be in court jan,, opp's judger's are on holiday, in will be in court in mar,, it will be in court in june,, opp's ryanair can't make it, it will be in court in aug no matter what, this time for sure, nothing will stop it,,,,, sorry guys our lawyer has had a better offer so you are screwed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[the grim repa]

kilo - i and many others have been saying to anyone who will listen for years what is happening and where it is leading if unchecked.the problem is people chose not to listen,believing the likes of leo hairy camel(an individual who has a vested interestin keeping pilots in the !!!!,don't suppose he will advise those on unpaid leave how to address their bills).this is not the end of the "race to the bottom",unpaid leave is just another facet of the degradation of pilots terms and conditions.what of the people who could not afford to pay their type rating.are they any less talented or entitled to positions as pilots?paying for ones rating is not the cause of the horrible situation that now exists,continues to worsen and affects aviaiton in the lower cost sectors.it is just another step in the road to ruining any long term interest for new pilots in pursuing a career in aviation,all to save mega profit companies paying the dues owed for work done.

let's stop burying our head in the sand and think about your future?what will you do if you lose your medical?how will you survive when retirement comes?

let's remember,household bills do not take unpaid leave!!!

[curser]

Bia botal, I can understand your frustration at falling at the first fence. It would have been a great start that first win. but a union is not a white knight that rides over the hill, kills the dragon and then rides off into the sunset.
A union is a living breathing thing, and its executive take direction from the membership about which battles to fight and how to fight them, they also get a feeling for the level of resolve and this they take into the board room/court house. Because you have a union does not mean you will win for ever more, you win, you lose and the exec. who you elect make judgment calls based on their own interpretation of the currant industrial climate but their primary concern is jobs then pay. They will squeeze (with your help) the company to ensure you do not lose one or too much of the other but no union should try to damage the company it works within. Don't give up after one little set back, M'OL is scared of unions (read any of the literature on him)

[rubik101]

If I call Surfer 07 a prat, a moron, an idiot, a scumbag, a filthy braindead Ozzie feckwit, will I get my post deleted?
If so, will the same mod please delete the prattish, moronic, idiotic scumbag's filthy post from this thread? #69 btw
And atr109 whatever is close behind......moron.

jiffajaffa, keep up the good work! Happy landings.

[Aerospace101]

I think people on here are just bitter because "the grass is always greener" elsewhere

[bia botal]

Curser

whilst i respect your opinion, i think i can say quite confidently that you have no idea what you are taking about, we (not i)hardly fell at the first fence, nor the last but we were well on the way, or so we were lead to believe, to getting what we wanted, we were lead to believe by both IALPA and BALPA that membership and support was on the rise and that the setback from the supreme court was just the a setback, and yet with only days to go till the next court day they (IALPA) start playing games with us, without even consulting with us, there members, the very people that pay there wages, they decided to delay the court case that we had all waited so long for, it was then a master stroke by ryanair to offer a new pay deal knowing full well that most of the group had had enough. And hey-presto the whole thing fell apart. It wasn't a case of the ryanair pilots not having the balls to carry on the fight it was a case of the ryanair pilots having bills to pay and no clear sight of when all the !!!! was going to end.

[rubik101]

To all you holier than thou union members in your 'safe' jobs, let me explain something.
O'Leary will never, I mean never, allow a union member to enter his office on union business.
If, and it is a big if, any base or even several bases could organise a ballot and they voted in favour of union recognition, O'Leary would close the base and sack all the pilots. Simple as that. He has effectively banned any union from operating in Ryanair and he will continue so to do as long as he can get away with it. EU and Irish law have meant nothing to him in the past so why will it in the future?
Now, you tell me how I am going to organise a ballot knowing that the result will mean we all lose our jobs?

Go on explain.....................clever clogs.

Go on strike, I hear you say................and to you I say, pathetic twits, all of you. You have no idea of the reality of working for O'Leary and if you did, you would stop using phrases like 'unprofessional' or 'slags' or 'filth'.

We don't like it any more than you do but we have to put up with the !!!!e from the company and the extra !!!!e from you pillocks.

[bia botal]

unfortunately rubik101 you have hit the nail right on the head.

[potkettleblack]

Razor where the hell are you getting your numbers from? FR the best payer my ar*e. You can be a skipper on 60k Euro total can't you? Our first year f/o's are on more than that when you include all the extras - sector pay, pension, uniform, crew meals etc etc. You haven't been seduced by all of MOL's headline figures have you? They are salaries that you will never get unless you do 900 hours a year and are a TRE/ base trainer etc.

[ShortfinalFred]

Wow - this isnt a professional occupation anymore - its a zoo! MoL is a sick man and he's created a sick airline that spreads like a virus among the industry. To say he "copied Southwest Airlines in the United States" is just a sick joke.

SWA Mission Statement:

"We are committed to provide our Employees a stable work environment with equal opportunity for learning and personal growth. Creativity and innovation are encouraged for improving the effectiveness of Southwest Airlines. Above all, Employees will be provided the same concern, respect and caring attitude within the organization that they are expected to share externally with every Southwest Customer".

If MOL keeps his crass ways up, God Forgive Us, but there will be a smoking hole in the ground somewhere with a terrible question arising from it: How Did It Come To This?

[the grim repa]

razor - you are light years off the issue.sorry i cannot indulge you in education as to the ryanair way."live and let live! all you like.i have to get back to dealing with the real issues.i am not wondering if you are a ryanair pilot or not,it is obvious that you are not from the naive posts.no offence buddy!!!

[BALLSOUT]

Pot, I don't know where you get your info from. A first year skipper will be on a lot more than you are talking!

[the grim repa]

think long term not just to next months pay check!!!where is your future?

[potkettleblack]

ppjn states that the captain top rate is EUR85k or STG75k. Hence a first year skipper will no doubt be on a lot less. Out of this you have to pay tax, your own pension contributions, medicals, licence renewals, sim checks, uniforms, crew meals etc etc. I assume the top rates are based on working max hours as well.

We all know that each and every contract is different as its in MOL's interests to keep you all guessing and at each others throats. I am sure there are some lucky ones on the "old rates" that earn a lot more just as sure as I know that there will be people with a whole lot of responsibility gettting lots less.

[Rhodes13]

potkettleblack ppjn numbers are wrong thats a fact so how about you stop posting garbage. Seeing as you don't work for RYR

"Out of this you pay tax" Don't people at other airlines pay tax now? Jesus I better get a job at one of those airlines. Of course figures mentioned are always gross.The figure mentioned are more than likely the basic i.e what you get paid wether you work or not, then add flight pay on top of that and you get the true figure.

Correct me If I'm wrong but On a RYR contract you do get an allowance per year to cover things such as uniform and the like. And for the nth time as a RYR employed pilot you DO NOT pay for sim checks. Only brookfield guys do! You also get pension money from RYR circa 5 grand as a captain!

Is this unpaid leave thing good hell no, and I dont agree with it for one minute. Is it better than loosing my job yes to an extent. Will I look for a contract if Im put onto unpaid leave, you better believe it!

Why are people getting so uptight, no one as yet has been asked to take unpaid leave, lets cross that bridge when we come to it instead of making a storm in a tea cup. Or is it much more fun to have unsubstantiated claims as la potkettleblack?

[jiffajaffa]

I do not want to take unpaid leave!! for all you f:mad: morons who had a go at me, I have bills to pay aswell, im simply making the point i will fly as much as i can and im lucky not to be out of a job at a time like this, how about all the pilots who are out of a job at the moment who would love your position in the right or left seat in RYR now???? I cant believe some of the experienced pilots in ryanair who come on here constantly moaning about absolutely everything!!

Move out of your seat, get a job with a better airline where the grass is greener and let someone else who has a realistic outlook in life and bills to pay who has NO JOB take your position! your not stuck in Ryanair!

redunancy is when an employer hands you your P45 and tells you there is no more work for you.....

Rubik thanks...

[BALLSOUT]

Pot, Rhodes seems to have covered things well. The guys who pay for sims etc are the contractors. a new contract captain can earn up to 155 Euro's per block hour. X 900 seems a bit more than you mention. This depends on how he/she choses to work.
In fact most get paid for near 1000 hours ie 155000 euro per year. I think they can afford the odd meal and sim check out of that.
The UK employed guys are probably nearer £85-£90,000 per annum but don't pay for the sim etc.They also receive an allowance against expenses, and a pension payment. Payscales do vary depending on base. Contractors rates also vary depending on if they choose to be at one base or floating.
now will you please go bother someone else, or at least keep to thread, and the facts.

[adolf hucker]

I am seriously worried that some posters are so gullible as to regurgitate the 'at least unpaid leave is better than no job' propaganda. The unpaid leave is not there to bail out a failing company and save your job from extinction - it is a typically opportunistic move by a ruthless management taking advantage of timid, ill-informed employees. This company will thrive in these times (notwithstanding O'Leary's abysmal hedging record). Ryanair will need all its current pilots and more for its continued expansion.

I speak as someone who has for a number of years tried to assist in the process of union recognition within Ryanair and have now given up because of the prevalence of halfwits within the company who are unable to recognise when they are getting shafted.

[rubik101]

adolf, all the employees, half wits, morons and even imbeciles, know full well that they are being shafted. There is just very little that they can do about it.
Are you a full wit? I thought so.

[lederhosen]

As a 737 Captain in Germany, non Ryanair, I have to say that the money looks fair. Certainly not the best, but far from the worst. What I don't quite understand is BALLSOUT's statement that most contractors get paid for 1000 hours. Surely under eu-ops we are all limited to 900 hours? Are there some additional things you get paid for?

[aerobat]

Pay is per scheduled block hour and the flight invariably takes less time hence fly 900 hrs but get paid for quite a few more.

[adolf hucker]

Have to disagree with you, Rubik. Not all the employees think they are being shafted - I fly with many who are happy to accept their treatment by the company (and only become exercised when their own circumstances are altered).

Your assertion that all pilots are aware of the problem but are totally powerless to do manything about it - THAT attitude is the real problem. There have been many opportunities for pilots to support various initiatives. However, when about 20 out of a possible 500 turn up to a BALPA meeting one might draw the conclusion that either 480 pilots are all flying, happy with their lot or just can't be bothered.

Sorry if I've offended you by being less than complimentary about our mutual colleagues. Individually, there are some very nice guys in the company - but that's the problem. We all act as individuals and have failed to grasp the opportunity to act cohesively. Acting in your own interests is fine right up until your own interests are jeopardised and you have no collective power to act.

So to all our brethren who are currently happy because they are at the right base/tax-dodging/getting a command/getting a job, enjoy your moment of contentment. Your apathy has failed to provide you with the means to respond to Ryanair's latest cost-cutting wheeze.

[lederhosen]

Thanks for the clarification aerobat. We get paid in a similar way, only our block times are not as generous. It also only applies to flight pay.

Well I can see why Ryanair are not going to have trouble recruiting contractors if they need them!

By the way I am not knocking the benefits of a union. Obviously if your terms and conditions are being eroded you need to stand up for yourselves. But your current situation is a lot better than some!

[UK Viking]

As every other airlines, Ryanair is doing their best to save as much work for as many as possible and don´t you think that it is only about 5 days pr. employees at a time, at least that would be fair, I guess everybody can afford 5 days forced leave and it would be fair to share that leave between as many as possible. Ryanair is still concidered as one of the safest job wice in Europe for the time being. :)

[minimany]

I wish to clarify that Ryanair constantly monitors Actual Block times versus Scheduled Block times and it is now very seldom that the combined out and back Actual Block time is more than a few minutes less than the Scheduled. This is often accomplished by lopping 5-10 mins off the Block time so that we find ourselves with 35 minute turnarounds instead of the much vaunted 25 min. turnarounds that Ryanair publicises.

[jasonjdr]

All newbies are contractors now. We did not get the option / choice at sign up. Personally I dont mind, as I was SE previously and value the benefits of now being a ltd co again.

So its no longer 'them and us' as some have narrow mindedly quoted on this thread :oh:, but just 'me and you' brother :cool:

Dont know why your all slating RYR for a "possible" request for 'unpaid leave' when if you have a look EZY are actually asking their pilots for that NOW! Funny how no-one every slates them. :rolleyes: or the companies who dont take this option and run their airlines into the ground and thus forcing the whole workforce back onto the streets :confused:

[ReallyAnnoyed]

Jasondr, Pikey's airline is being slated for FORCED unpaid leave. Not for offering unpaid leave. There is no forced unpaid leave in orange land and actually no more unpaid leave available for the winter now.

[JW411]

As a pilot with 50 years experience in professional aviation (now retired) I try to keep a balanced view about life in aviation.

I notice that there are reports on an another forum (not a million miles from here) that BA have stopped recruiting and are likely to start asking for volunteers to take unpaid leave.

Can we expect that there will now be 50 pages on pprune villifying BA and BALPA if these rumours are found to be true?

Another interpretation could be that BA are just starting to wake up and smell the coffee.

[the_stranger]

Like Reallyannoyed said, it's not about offering it, but forcing it upon the pilots...

[jasonjdr]

I see your point. However, you could be accused of jumping the gun a little.

That sort of detail may or may not have been in the memo asking for unpaid leave applications at EZY (we wont know because no-ones copied it onto PPrune :\), but if it wasn't I bet it was discussed and would be an option with management (and also will have been done at BA, if they are offering the same). Management will allways have a backup if no-one volunteers themselves, otherwise it will be another airline up the swany! (sic)

If I looked at it from the other side of the fence, you could say that at least they have been upfront an warned personel of the potential situation if nothing is done about it. Not saying its a great position to be in, and it certainly wont be if people are suddenly lotteried up to take the leave when they really need the cash. But there is the old saying it is 'better to be forwarned and forarmed.............'

[SD.]

RYR have offered unpaid leave. The original statement came out at least 6 weeks ago. The latest memo stated that they are still looking for volunteers to take unpaid leave, if none are found then it will be forced.

[JW411]

It really is none of my business, but as a retired airline pilot of some 50 years standing I have to say that I was at one time a member of BALPA, the TGWU and the very famous International Brotherhood of the Teamsters.

None of them did me any good when times were hard (they had bigger agendas).

The most useless of the bunch was BALPA.

The trouble with the likes of grimmy is that they have not been around aviation long enough to have an opinion.

[ReallyAnnoyed]

JW411. just remember that management is definitely represented in this thread as well ;)

[rubik101]

Grim seems to read only his own posts; his responses never, but never, addrerss any of the points made by anyone else.
The reality of the situation seems to pass him by and all he can do is tell us what Ryanair pilots should do.
Well, excuse me; if you are so wound up about it, put your name up as the base rep for BALPA and get on with the bloody job of getting them all to vote for a union.
Then watch as the base is closed and you are out of a job.
Ah, stupid of me, I see now; why would you ever want to vote yourself out of a job eh?
Shut up and do something useful, please.

[captplaystation]

Maybe Grim & Leo are the same ( severely schizophrenic) poster.
Christ, that would make a great comedy sketch in the STN crewroom at 5 in the morning, the two halfs cursing and blinding at each other.
Then again, we all recognise Grim on REPA, but the hairy one has never ( to my knowledge) ventured there, perhaps we will have to rethink that. Not the " royal we" you understand, we are not schizo yet AAARGH. . . .

[the grim repa]

oh my little angels!focus on anyone and anything but address the real issues and drag yourselves out of the !!!!.is it possible that you 3 staunch gentlefolk have been duped.the beaten and defeated.sad,very sad!!!!

[apron]

Gentlemen....very sad indeed.....the bashing/the moral/the state of our industry.

Dont get too personal chaps...:ugh:

[jonathan3141]

As Finance Director of a company in a totally different industry... You guys are all bright enough to do equations. But you're lucky, you don't have to do them. It's that Dickens thing - income is 20 shillings and sixpence = happiness, otherwise not. And for the FD, or management, they have to make some ruthless decisions. Which simply put translate into forced unpaid leave or redundancies.

It's not a failed business model, as some have said. Its the combination of high fuel prices, a knackered world economy, banks that suddenly find it difficult to lend, and shareholders who would rather not stump up more money.

It restricts the choices a tad!

[suchiman]

Imminent boner!
You are making my little bonner shrink to little bitts! And it was small enought to start with!!!!!!
Dont be so nice and undestanding, it is really not neccesary, but actually a big kick in the BULLOCKS!
A bit of respect would be good.
Pilots should not be a seasonal bussiness, after all we do have lives, obligations and mortgages.
The price of leasing airplanes doesn't go down seasonaly, why should pilot salaries?
If a company wants to give flights out for free, its not our problem! Everything should reach its fair point and giving out 1p flights while laying people off is definately not the right path!!!!!! PLEASE DONT JUSTIFY IT !!!!

[CaptKremin]

Rubik101 and Captplaystation - I'm new to this thread, but have seen your work on other 'Ryanair threads'. You two boys sure put a helluva lot of effort into convincing your colleagues that their situation is hopeless, and that they are defeated.

You may well feel that way, depression is a common enough illness, and often caused by stress at work. There is treatment available and I would recommend you seek the advice of a psychologist if you feel desperate.

On the other hand, you may simply be working an agenda to demoralise your colleagues. Whose agenda that is - we can only guess at.

My advice to you would be as follows.
Spend less time on the internet. Or at least on PPRuNe in particular. It isn't helping your mental health, and it isn't helping your colleagues work through the problems they face.

Lets be honest though, if you put as much energy into supporting your colleagues as you do into dragging them down, you'd probably do some good, and you might even feel better in yourself.

[captplaystation]

Been there done that, I have been at REPA meetings at a fairly large base where only a handful turned up,and some of those could have been management stoogies sussing it out for all I know. I have never been apathetic to our dilemna, but I sure as hell have not been of a mind to throw myself on the sacrificial sword for a bunch of guys who give every indication of not giving a sh@t.
If you want to step up to the mantle feel free, but don't question the motivation or agenda of those of us who may have tried for a bit longer than you ,but sadly had their eyes opened by how far it got us ( or not).
I am all for rallying the troops, but building up false hopes,only to see it crash and burn is a big demotivator for the future, as was shown by the labour court/victimisation claim saga. Look at what others who were more intimately& financially involved in that saga have posted, many of them have given up / become line trainers / simply left. . why ? because they didn't have the big gonads that you seem to feel you posess? NO, they just got fed up of beating their head against a brick wall and moved on to a less punishing agenda. But keep on as you are, and come back to us in 5 years & let us know if you achieved what you wished. I don't expect to have any real progress/news any sooner, but I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

[CaptKremin]

Been there done that, I have been at REPA meetings at a fairly large base where only a handful turned up,and some of those could have been management stoogies sussing it out for all I know.

Given the terrorism in Ryanair I'm not surprised if meetings are badly attended. The solution is to root out terrorism - not to give up and surrender.

I have never been apathetic to our dilemna, but I sure as hell have not been of a mind to throw myself on the sacrificial sword for a bunch of guys who give every indication of not giving a sh@t.

Negative mindset and negative language is not helpful and won't contribute to the solution.

If you want to step up to the mantle feel free, but don't question the motivation or agenda of those of us who may have tried for a bit longer than you ,but sadly had their eyes opened by how far it got us ( or not).

You don't know me, yet you cast aspertions on my comittment. I can assure you that I'vce been involved in the union movement a lot longer than you've been a member of Ryanair.

I am all for rallying the troops, but building up false hopes,only to see it crash and burn is a big demotivator for the future, as was shown by the labour court/victimisation claim saga.

More despair and defeatism.
What is really your motivation? Why do you feel the need to run your two man crusade against a union if your fellow pilots choose to have one?

If your colleagues don't give a sh@t, about you, as you say, why do you give a sh@t about them, whether they choose to join a union or not?
You seek to portray yourself as altruistic toward them, yet you use abusive language to describe them. Are you simply experiencing personal feelings of rejection? Or do you simply prefer the Status Quo? Would you prefer if the boat doesn't get rocked?

Look at what others who were more intimately& financially involved in that saga have posted, many of them have given up / become line trainers / simply left. . why ? because they didn't have the big gonads that you seem to feel you posess? NO, they just got fed up of beating their head against a brick wall and moved on to a less punishing agenda. But keep on as you are, and come back to us in 5 years & let us know if you achieved what you wished. I don't expect to have any real progress/news any sooner, but I would be delighted to be proved wrong.

The best way for you to assist progress (if thats what you really want) would be to crawl off somewhere and die. Take Rubik with you.

[captplaystation]

You are ,sadly, even more abrasive than Ryanair, and suffer a similar degree of tunnel vision when anyone questions your narrow focussed view of reality. You sound like the kind of chap who is up for a fight, keep looking behind you at regular intervals to see how many are there to reinforce you, lest you enter the fray unaccompanied.
You are obviously unable, or unwilling to read & understand what I write. There is nothing I would like to see better than union involvement in RYR, I just don't believe it's likely to happen any time soon. Instead of shouting, try to read & understand that others may also have valid views. . . . Oh ,and put down those political text books more often and look at how those around you react ( or not in most cases) to what is forced upon them. Try to open your eyes and join the rest of us in the real world as a first step, and once you have assimilated the real situation you can maybe find a way to change it. Just spouting venom & rhetoric in the direction of anyone who questions your view of the world is hardly likely to convince anyone of your capabilities or good intentions.
I assume you did a CRM course at some stage, I strongly suggest you apply for a refund.
I shudder to think what you must be like to share 4 sectors with.

[The Real Slim Shady]

Nothing exemplifies the power and stupidity of unions more than the crisis at Alitalia.

I've been there,seen it, done it, had the baseball bat stuffed up our collective ar*e* by union reps feathering their own nests at the expense of others. Repa and his chums have their own agendas: the rest of us have ours. If they don't follow the same paths, so be it. Just stop shouting off and criticising people for exercising their democratic choice.

[rubik101]

CaptainKretin, how very ignorant, violent and crude to wish a fellow human being to 'crawl off somewhere and die'. Your karma must be shot to !!!! mate.
Some of us are realists, but you, along with a few others, are ranting, ignorant, and bone-headed in the short-sighted pursuit of your own agenda. It is a shame that you never seem to actaully understand what is written, merely attach your own interpretation of the words and then write a fairly pointless piece of rhetoric.

Not once have I or Captplaystation or any others advocated giving up on the unionisation of Ryanair; we have merely pointed out the facts, things that you seem to take very little notice thereof.

You are a sad individual Kremin.

When you lead the Mighty Union over the parapet to ultimate victory over the despised capitalist, the rich and wretched MOL, I will write and congratulate you, until then, just carry on with your moronic and violent rantings, wasting all our time.

[CaptKremin]

Nothing exemplifies the power and stupidity of unions more than the crisis at Alitalia.

I hear the pilots union has accepted the rescue deal. I don't know the details yet, but if we discover that their refusal to take their shafting on day 1 (as you recommend) has resulted in an improvement in their situation - I guess you'll have to eat your words, eh?

And whatever the deal - please notice - Alitalia has not collapsed, folded, failed, or wound up.

Your scare-mongering is self defeatist. There's a lot of it about.

Which reminds me, Playstation - perhaps I was too harsh. Let me re-phrase.

Thank you for your past service, if you have nothing further to offer we regret to see you go, but these times call for Fortitude and Leadership, so allow the new batch to get on with the job - and enjoy your retirement.

[CaptKremin]

Ahh, boobik101, our posts crossed. Don't mean to ignore you.

CaptainKretin, how very ignorant, violent and crude to wish a fellow human being to 'crawl off somewhere and die'. Your karma must be shot to !!!! mate.Oh you scurrilous little hypocrite! :rolleyes:
Recognise these comments?..."a prat, a moron, an idiot, a scumbag, a filthy braindead Ozzie feckwit..." written in post 92 of this very thread, by YOU. Thats a nice way to talk about someone - and then have the gall to censure others? Get off the stage you fool.

Some of us are realists, but you, along with a few others, are ranting, ignorant, and bone-headed in the short-sighted pursuit of your own agenda. It is a shame that you never seem to actaully understand what is written, merely attach your own interpretation of the words and then write a fairly pointless piece of rhetoric. Well we all have agendas around here it seems.
Yours is to look after yourself and fark the rest.

Not once have I or Captplaystation or any others advocated giving up on the unionisation of Ryanair; we have merely pointed out the facts, things that you seem to take very little notice thereof.Things like----"It's a waste of time! You're all doomed, DOOMED I TELL YA!!"
That kind of thing?
Why effin bother matey? Move along.

You are a sad individual Kremin. Actually I'm not sad at all. I'm quite happy. I'm in a union and I'm paid twice what you make, thanks to my union.

Carry on bending over and telling me I'm sad...you eejit! :bored: Maybe it'll make you feel better about yourself.

When you lead the Mighty Union over the parapet to ultimate victory over the despised capitalist, the rich and wretched MOL, I will write and congratulate you, until then, just carry on with your moronic and violent rantings, wasting all our time. I won't be waiting on letters of thanks from a corporate shill like you. You'll be crying in your cornflakes. You are O'Learys second largest lapdog.
Woof Woof!

[Tooloose]

Yes, it looks like the Alitalia pilots have snatched victory from what everyone thought would be the jaws of defeat. They have read the game correctly and they have seen off Berlusconi's little attempt to enrich his friends and ultimately himself at the workers' expense.
What an outstanding demonstration of how much can be achieved if you believe in the power of unity and have the moral strength to resist those who try to convince you that you cannot win. Unity is strength and strength is power.
Lucky for them they didn't have the likes of rubik, captplaystation et el in their ranks.
Kremin has a very good point. If you feel defeated please don't expend your energy trying to persuade others that they are defeated too. It is the most destructive form of self indulgence.
''If you have nothing constructive to say, say nothing".

[captplaystation]

So Kremin, you are in a union and earning twice what rubik makes courtesy of aforesaid union. Well, you quite obviously don't work for our delightful MOL then, so at least we know why you have !!!! all idea of how life is in "planet ryanair", how to fix it, and why it hasn't been fixed. You are therefore excused your ignorance of the subject, if not of your abject inability to be civil to anyone who dares to disagree with your assesment of the situation.
Does having union representation also absolve you from keeping your cool when you don't get your own way, or from having to take other opinions into account in your decision making ?
Edited to say, I see from your previous postings that you appear to work for that little airline down the road that RYR have a large interest in.
Far from asking me, as you did , to respect my colleagues and their right to be in a union ( which I do) perhaps you could let us know what exactly is your interest in this debate about the " useless tossers in Ryanair who shouldn't be getting any of my IALPA money" as you so succintly put it in your posting of 11th Jan.
I know my interest in this discussion, perhaps you would like to explain your somewhat bizarre involvement in it. Or is it just fear that next time Micky makes a play fer ya you will end up in the same sh1t as us, now that could be it, indeed it could.

[the grim repa]

i think it is time to hang up the handbags and agree to disagree on this very emotive issue on this thread.it is just going around in circles.i am a union person and wish to better the lives of myself and my fellow workers.there are fundamental differences between all the posters here.if you have any fight left in you or have not given up hope of a long term future in aviation,then fight on and hold your head up high.if in the other weaker camp,then do what you wish.my advise for what it is worth,is for those pro union/pro future to desist from posting on this thread any longer and devote their energies to the good work that DOES every day progress on our behalf and let those who be run over to their own devices.

to thine own self be true!rock bottom is not just another rung on the ladder downward.

semper fidelis!!!

[lgw_warrior]

Ok,so a union is not going to sort this out,what about your employee rep's? im sure the pilots in FR have one,the same guys who spent so much time and effort negotiating an excellent pay deal ( :rolleyes: ), were are they now,hiding under the covers? these shold be the guys going to the company and getting some clarification on exacly what forced unpaid leave is , 1 day,1 week or 1 month,and then talking to the pilots, they get paid to be a rep, so do some ef'in work.:ugh:

[Capt Hook]

Why don't all the pilots take unpaid leave for 1 week (at the same time), I am sure the effect will result in the sacking of MOL and will be of great benefit to the whole of the aviation community!

Wasn't it behaviour of this very sort that gave birth to the Trade Union movement in the first place!

[CaptKremin]

CP, Did I say 'twice your salary'?
My mistake - I just found out it's thrice your salary.:}

Your 'bigger airline' has a 'big interest' in my company? So what?
Does that put more food on your table? More money in your pocket?

It must make Micko crack up to read that you get a "warm comfortable feeling" just knowing he's getting richer by the day at your expense, and that you are so proud of that fact that you'll forego 200% of your current earnings.

What a twerp.:rolleyes:
Seriously - you deserve to be screwed over.

[Redline]

It makes me so very sad to see MOL's comments in the media today..

When discussing enforced unpaid leave, he was quoted as saying 'if they don't like it, they can leave'... absolutely charming.

So all these people giving their lives to RYR, trying their damnest to look after their families, pay the mortgage/utilities/food bills/car payments etc etc are repaid with such despicable contempt.

Then MOL goes on to state that he's taken a pay cut... He will burn in hell...

[liffy2A]

Not Question you redline, Just wonderig where this was said? What news paper or briefing?

[captplaystation]

Kremin, I ask you again, as I did on the other thread, what is your big interest in all of this anyhow?
Are you perchance frightened that the bogey-man from down the road gets his own way next time, or are you all prepared to shell out again to stop him.
Anyhow, as you earn 2 , sorry now it's 3 times what a Ryanair Capt earns for sure you can afford it, strange how you awarded yourself a 50% pay rise within a few posts. I would say b@llocks, but then you must know how much you earn, and seem to be very confident in your knowledge of how much we don't, but somehow Hmnn I doubt it.

It is great to come on here and start threads titled "union to kick down door at RYR", but really don't you think you are a little premature here?
The legislation hasn't yet been enacted, it hasn't passed it's period for consultation with other parties ( I assume that exists ) you stated that UNITE (whoever they are I am not a union fetishist) have already found it to be less than watertight, it hasn't been tested and won in a court of law, early days to wave the victory flag.
If you look at the recent history of union involvement in RYR, you can maybe see why we could be sceptical about your new all singing/ all dancing solution to our problems.
Traditionally RYR have rode roughshod over any attempt to introduce union representation resulting in the dismissal of the person identified as being the prime mover ( Martin Duffy if my memory is correct) and various forms of skullduggery to make a ballot difficult in any one base. So, pilots being smart ? ? realised that just maybe unions weren't too welcome.
In spite of this many of my colleagues at the DUB base dug their heels in until last year, resisted signing contracts, paid up-front for conversion training, missed command slots etc, all because they were told the labour court would be the solution to everything.
Well, you know the next part I hope. Your wonderful Supreme Court , in my opinion with pressure from your government, decided that No, the labour court decision wasn't binding, and all the hopes were for nought. But you want us to believe of course that the self same government has suddenly got so concerned about the workers ( and not the cash flow from succesful companies ) that they are going to do an about turn & kick RYR's ass.
The second event last year, was that BALPA, contrary to the exortations of IALPA, decided not to go for a union recognition ballot in STN. The numbers were good, very good, but the (since replaced) head honcho in BALPA decided he wanted a dedicated RYR official ( however they were only offering a short term contract to him, so what sort of numpty would that have been ? ) be appointed before making that move. The golden opportunity was lost, and with the dissapointment following on from the labour court fiasco who knows when or if numbers will ever be good enough for it to rematerialise.
The guys who lived through that period in DUB have my utmost respect. They came to work and continued to do a professional job, surrounded by God knows what ambience during the time they spent in the office.Constantly watching their backs, losing money and opportunities, when it would have been so easy to cave in and go with the flow. If so many of them now are not spoiling for a fight , it is more a measure of the dissapointment they felt in the judiciary ( more than IALPA) not upholding what seemed entirely relevant legislation, rather than a lack of balls on their part. Your attitude towards RYR pilots demonstrates a lack of true understanding of the situation this last few years.
For this and many other reasons I think you are ill placed to come on here trumpeting your new legislation and how it will change everything. Save the fanfares for if & when a court case has been won ,appealed ,and still emerges victorious.
BTW, if you are really earning 3 times what we do, no wonder your company is in the sh1t, and how come you have nothing better to do with your time than come on here to discuss a company you don't even work for . . . (YET) Guess money ain't everything.
I guess we should be flattered that you care about your "poor cousins", but can't you do it in a less abrasive more constructive fashion, we might even start to take you seriously.

[CaptKremin]

That was like an extract from 'War and Peace'.

What is my interest?
I'll sum it up for you in a lot less words.

I've seen this profession dragged into the gutter by your boss. I want to see his head on a plate before I retire. If you pussies ever grow a backbone it just might happen. I live in hope.

However - if the worst came to the worst - and if after a hard fight we are outmonied and outmillioned by that w@nker - I'll walk away without a backward glance, and my head held high.

You meanwhile will still be getting shafted a decade on.
Because thats what you have resigned yourself to.

[rubik101]

Captplaystation, forget it; leave the kremin to his overpaid rantings. He wants you dead remember?
The man is a dreamer,delusional and deluded. Leave him to his lordly rantings and watch as his held high head disappears off into the unionised and unemployed darkness.
He's also a fake. He's on £16.500 (net) a month remember! At least he is if he makes 3 times what you and I do.

[CaptKremin]

Heh - your boss is a very rich man! Why aren't YOU earning three times what I make?

I think we all know the answer to that one. Nobody to blame but yerselves.

[the grim repa]

Ryanair pilots set for some unpaid winter leave (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/29/316563/ryanair-pilots-set-for-some-unpaid-winter-leave.html)

MOL " pilots will take forced unpaid leave,if they don't like they can leave".even now the pilots cannot see the reality of their situation.very very sad!

[Redline]

Ryanair pilots set for some unpaid winter leave (http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/09/29/316563/ryanair-pilots-set-for-some-unpaid-winter-leave.html)

[5tarbuck]

" pilots will take forced unpaid leave,if they don't like they can leave".

No mention of numbers, or how the enforced temporary redundancies will be distributed. Inverse order of seniority? Ooops...no such thing in FR.
I imagine it'll be doled out as punishment to the less co-operative. The guys who's names are in some clerks 'little black book of slackers'.The rest will just stand by meekly watching the hangings and thanking God it wasn't them - this time. How pathetic.

[NIMBLE]

I think the issue of contract pilots is very important.Its a very sorry state if full time pilots are forced to take unpaid leave when there are contractors working and still working for the company.They do enjoy telling all how much they earn and hide away and i always believed that s what they were for, earn lots when needed and be the first one s rested when required.
We have to remember that alot of base captains are contractors!!!

[wayupthere]

Rumour has it that the Irish revenue are bring EI and RYR to court as they believe pilots are employees and not contractors.
Would be interesting to see what happens there, but seeing as its the Irish system I doubt it will be in my lifetime :}

[adolf hucker]

While Kremin is right that we at Ryanair have allowed this highly successful company to take major liberties with our terms and conditions, I think his attitude stinks. It's very easy to be critical from the comfort of his unionised, benefit-rich, final-salary pensioned perch. The problem with most pilots in his position is that they enjoy the security of highly unionised employment without having had to fight for it. Well done mate for having the balls to pay your monthly subscription to the union. Come to Ryanair, stick your head above the parapet, organise some meetings and then tell me how easy it is address our problems.

As someone who flies for Ryanair and can recognise the failure of our pilots to pursue a common aim, I have been intensely frustrated with the situation. However, I really don't need smug lectures from a milksop like Kremin who has inherited his position of comfort by dint of working for the right company.

[curser]

Wayupthere, interesting rumour but to my mind EI don't employ any contractors at the moment so it can only be half true.
Adolf et al, you abuse kremin and then take a huff when he dishes it back. Be careful like Biabottle you are new to this game and full of misinformation, you do yourself a disservice. Milksop? I think not. You list his perks and attribute this to an inheritance, not so, He, me and all the others stood and faced down that which one day you will have to fight. In IR issues you are only as strong as your last fight and we could lose it all tomorrow if we allowed ourselves the luxury of throwing our hands in the air and rationalizing reasons to quite.
Good luck to you all, I enjoy a good Barney as much as the next man but we are rooting for you down the road.( some just express it as tough love).

[CIPO]

This is very simply bully boy tactics once again by MOL & his hench men. "If they don't like it they can leave"......... A typical statement from the biggest prick to run an airline in history, not surprised by the words of wisdom though....:yuk:
Unpaid leave will be forced upon pilots on a Ryanair contract only as they get a basic salary so have to be paid irrespective of the work they do. This work will then be done by contractors.
Those most at risk are the SENIOR FO's/Capt's who have the most basic wage. It's very simple!
Time for the Revenue commisioners/Government to step in because an Irish airline is making millions but not paying it's equivalent quota of tax as the contractors either don't pay any or pay tax in their country of residence....

And anyway, they cannot just force unpaid leave on us. You are either made redundant or you aren't. FR making it's own rules AGAIN me thinks!!!:mad:

[bia botal]

Well i would hardly say that i was new to the game there curser, i am in the union, been to all the meetings etc, sure with guys like ned flanders gunning for us we can't loose right :rolleyes:so what now then, what do you and all the others out there suggest, how in the hell are you going to stop this happening when we couldn't last time and the time before that. I am no different than you or anybody else, i don't like the direction that this is headed, but quite frankly i believe it is going to take something extremely dramatic to change its direction, and you can bet leave without pay won't be it, for sure the company knows who the trouble makers are and who will do the least about it, i disagree with 5tarbuck, more than likely the people that will do the least about it will get the longest off and the most unionized will see very little. You can all rant and rave on about the law and what is right and wrong, but i have heard it all before, big long speeches from lawyers that in the end screwed us over because they where concerned that the might lose the case. Even new laws will not stop MOL, for david bonderman is his puppet master and considering the money he has lost lately i would doubt he is going to tell MOL to do anything other than :mad: us and :mad: the irish government. Look at whats happening to the contractors at the moment, under huge pressure from brockfield to show they are paying tax, and if there are not who is going to be the ones facing the rap, for sure it won't be ryr.

[RAFAT]

I've seen this profession dragged into the gutter by your boss. I want to see his head on a plate before I retire. If you pussies ever grow a backbone it just might happen. I live in hope.

Amen to that! :D:D:D

[bia botal]

AND HERE IT IS

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen
I refer to my letter of 15 September 2008.
Since there have been just two Winter unpaid leave applications from pilots at Dublin
and Stansted we will now proceed to allocate unpaid leave in these two bases. We are
considering the allocation of two calendar weeks unpaid leave to all Ryanair pilots in
Dublin and Stansted during the period 3rd November to 14th December and 5th January
to 15th March.
I am holding crisis meetings with Dublin and Stansted ERCs to go through the
programme being considered and to tailor it where possible, while keeping our focus
at all times on our priority which is to preserve the job security of all Ryanair pilots.I will give you an update at the end of this week.
XXXXXX XXXXXX

[Spunky Monkey]

Crisis Meeting?

What Crisis? Shafting people more like.
You have my sympathy.

[Viking101]

Come on guys, time to fire MOL. Fair enough, he built FR and made it sucessfull but he aint the man to run the company- he is a business boy who has an business idea and starts it up. He should stick to that.

MOL has not the capability to keep employees happy. He does not have any CRM skills at all. He is a rude and arrogant president, uses threats during negotiations. Saw him on utube being very sleezy in a meeting with the germans. Could not believe it. Such an idiot. :ugh:

You guys working for FR- get ridd of him and get someone who is interested in keeping you working instead!! :ok:

I would say its the same with all airlines- mostly good guys flying but some in the management are just idiots. I say again, NOT all of them. But some... :yuk:

Good luck.

But really. Try and get ridd of him. For your own sake. And start over.

[rubik101]

I have no love of MOL, as those of you who actually read these posts well know.

Had he said, 'some of the pilots can leave or they can go on unpaid leave for a couple of weeks and then come back to their jobs', then you might just be of the opinion that he actually cares for his workforce!

I realise that he didn't phrase it that way but it amounts to the same thing.

Rather that than, 'Here's your P45.'

Did I note in that 'crisis meeting' mention of preserving pilots' jobs? No, can't be true, RYR don't give a shyte about jobs for anyone, surely.

Viking101, what planet do you live on? Get rid of MOL? Please explain just how we do that? I await with bated breath for your pearls of wisdom.

btw Kremin, just what do you do with your £16500 take home pay every month? (3 times a Ryanair Captains' salary)

[Viking101]

There are different ways, depending on what path you choose.

Might start with "internal affairs". Do you get my point or do you want me to spell it out for you? Rubik101, get some balls and do something actively. You will never accomplish anything by writing wise and theoretical things on this forum. Thats the planet I am from :}

Anyway, its all about my grief for my colleagues. Feel sorry for you having an idiot as CEO.

But if you like him, think he is a good role module, strong leadership etc. be my guest. Whatever floats your boat. Just don´t forget your life jacket.

[JW411]

Viking 101:

I see you are also banging away on an EZY forum. Just to clear up the confusion, can you tell us whether you work for FR, EZY, both or neither of the two?

[Viking101]

I am cool, so how about FREZY?

:}

[JW411]

So can we take it then that you work for neither and are actually employed as a general !!!!! stirrer?

[Maxfli]

Seems like a man who once said I'll only stick it in a little :ouch:

Next winter it'll be 6 weeks and in time it will be 6 months on 6 months off so each man year will generate 1200hrs.

[Viking101]

JW411

yes thats correct. And I get !!!!! loads of money for it too.

Over and out

:rolleyes:

[rubik101]

Ignore these idiots and there lies. People can write what they like in here about the amount of money they make, you only have to look at Kremlins' rants about how he makes 3 times as much as a Ryanair Captain.
Viking101 is simply another shyte stirrer in the same mould with nothing better to do but trawl the threads on pprune.
I'm off on two weeks holiday now, paid for by MOL incidentally.

[inner]

Hang on, ok Ryanair is not popular. I also don't like the company BUT the pay is good. Much better than what you get in most of the other compagnies.

p.s no i do not work for ryanair

[stormin norman]

A few weeks unpaid leave,not fan an of MOL but at least he dosn't wait for the banks to close in and reacts to the market conditions.

[Pilot Pete]

I also don't like the company BUT the pay is good. Much better than what you get in most of the other compagnies. You comparing apples and oranges?:rolleyes: Look at packages not just take home figures. Then take out of your ryanair take home pay all the things that other airlines provide as part of the package, then look at hours worked for the money and also pray you don't go long term sick...............then demonstrate how much better it is than most.

PP

[Redline]

This is from a Permanent Ryanair's Contract of Employment issued in Oct 06

20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.

:mad:

I expect that people signing this contract didn't envisage market conditions as they are today

[Capt Hook]

I initially thought this move by MOL was appalling; if it is indeed in line with the contracts the pilots have signed then that sheds a different light on it entirely!

[easymoney]

We have approx 40 % temporary contract pilots at Ryanair.

We are cutting back less than 40% for the winter routes.

Therefore we do not have "excess capacity".

There's no visible cash saving by telling the contractors that they are not required for x amount of time.

To Ryanair it's a small cash saving by forcing it's loyal permanent employees to take un paid leave. It's not a make or break of the airline.


Negotiations in Ryanair - Take it or Leave

[Fullblast]

A simple question for ryanair pilots, for example, if you send today(1st Oct) a request for an unpaid leave from 3rd October to 23rd October (short notice), it would be reasonable to be granted or they can shift the period at their convenience?

Thanks

FB

[Viking101]

Is FR still not employing anyone after the Oct course?

Speaking of "packages" that is totally correct. Apparently FR pilots does not get any water, crew food, snacks at all during the long working days either. I heard a rumour many years ago that staff was not even aloud to charge their mobile at work due to the elec bill...

Depending on contract, you get a salary incl or excl tax too. No pension payed either. Or social security. So I guess its really up to you how to count and how you want to build up your future. Putting money under your bed has always its risks too though..

[inner]

@pilot pete: Yes every company is different, so you are always comparing apples with oranges. But after reducing taxes and social security im' sure that a RYR F/O has still a nice income. Making loads of money without working or working little every month is just an illusion.

[curser]

Dreadful news biabottle. Just a thought however. With this massive reduction in capacity there is presumably less to manage, I expect therefore that office workers, accountants and mol will also be availing of this leave. Or maybe its just the Pilots powers of rationalization they are relying on.

[stansdead]

Inner,

You live in a dream world.

FR pay and package is poor, when you do as Pilot Pete says and cost things up.

It's not all about just take home pay.

As Pete says, pray you don't get ill at FR, you will be down the road with no help. And believe me, your money will not last long on unemployment benefit.

I know about getting ill. I am 34 and just got diagnosed with Leukaemia. Thank God I work for a decent outfit, where I have been paid full pay for 6 months and will keep getting paid at 75% for a long time.

And if I die? My wife and child are well cared for.

What will your family get?

[jasonjdr]

Standead,

Very sorry to hear about that mate, but am glad to hear you at least dont have to worry financially.

In my 'other' life I own and run an IFA business and constantly come into contact with clients who believe they have adequate cover through their employers, but when in comes down to the crunch long term sick pay can often amount to no more than a year or 2, after which you can often be forced to return to work in a different (lower paid) capacity.

Employers on the whole very rarely offer comprehensive employee benefits packages these days, and tend to only be the very large international organisations (or in this case Flag carriers). Max benefits tend to be 4x salary death in service (not incl bonuses, o/t etc), full sick pay for 6 to 12 months (then at company discretion - see above), some medical (Bupa) cover if you are lucky, company contribution to pension scheme (finally salaries are long gone! - and the contributions tend to be around 6% of salary).

For the self employed / contractors, and those employees who wish top up benefits the cost can be supprisingly low (obviously it depends on age and any existing medical conditions). But as a contractor 37yrs old who wants all of the above I would be looking at no more than £150pm for the all the insurances (and that would include max sick pay benefits 75% of income up until retirement - guaranteed).

That just leaves the pension contribution. As a cadet going into RYR, after line training, I would expect income of around £60k pa. So lets take the 6% pension contribution of that. Which means that I would be on nett £56,400, take off the £150pm for the insurances, means that in order to receive max benefits I would be on £54,600 nett of all costs (let me know if I have missed some benefits out? - oh yeh food and drink at lunch time. Well lets say £7/ day over 20 days per month over 11 months = £1540). So we are down to £53,060.

(I am not going to take the line training cost and cost of uniform £250, and change of License to IAA £300, as this is a career cost. So if I was I would have to spread this cost over the term of my career as a pilot. Which currently is an unknown quantity unless I took the normal retirement age. But if I could find a airline who would pay for the TR then they give you reduced salary anyway.........etc, etc )

Now, can someone show me another airline who is going to pay a low houred cadet (200hrs TT) more than £53,060 (with the benefits above) in the first year after training? Because I cant find one.

Cheers

[SD.]

It's off the subject re: unpaid leave,but just an observation Jason.

After line training (lets say it's 150 hours) the next 350 hours will be paid at €45* pbh. That comes out to €15750, then the remainding 400 hours at €70* per sbh = €28000. So assuming you do 900 hours in your first year from base training (which is highly unlikely at the moment) then from the day you do the 6 circuits, the absolute most you can earn in year one is €43k.

Year 2 is a bit different, 900 hours x €70* per sbh is €63k.

The only way that you'll earn the figures they tell you at the Cadet open day is to fly 900 hrs per annum and on a roaming Brookfield contract. You might expect £60k after line training, but you wont get it. :8

*I've deducted the €5 ph for sim training and this is based on someone who trained with the old Ryanair training contract.

[stansdead]

Jason,

Show me where you will get insurance for that money. I am intrigued !! Not that I could get it anymore.

As for a 6% pension? That will get you a very VERY bad pension from age 37.

See what I mean?

[Lord Lardy]

jasonjdr,


Now, can someone show me another airline who is going to pay a low houred cadet (200hrs TT) more than £53,060 (with the benefits above) in the first year after training? Because I cant find one.

After dusting off the salary scale from the back of the wardrobe I can say that the airline I work for pays in euros a basic salary to a year one cadet (defined as in the past a sponsored airline cadet, or today a 200 hour non rated recently finished flight training pilot) of €60,818 euros to be exact. On top of this the company contributes a further 21% of this salary towards their pension which in this case as a year one pilot is a further €12,771 euros. Net sector pay amounts to €10,000 and a flying perfomance pay agreement, assuming flying 870 annual hours (which is the average amount these days in the company) amounts to a further €18,000 euros. (This amount calculated at a rate of €60 per block hour over 570 annual hours up to a maximum of 900 hours for a First Officer regardless of years of service and €80 per hour as a captain)

To add it all up then it comes to year 1 cadet entry 'package' of €101,589 euros. Salary is paid from the day you join, type rating is paid for and bond only applies if you leave within the first three years. Nothing taken out of your salary towards it. Uniform, medicals, sim sessions and car parking all paid for by the company. These figures are documented on ppjn and are accurate.

So as Pilot Pete said in an earlier post, it can be the package that's important, not alway the direct salary, hence the reason a huge number of Ryanair pilots joined the company last year, giving up their commands to start at the very bottom again. (Bottom being every new pilot regardless of whether you have 20,000 hours or 200 hours start on the same scale and you all move up accordingly through years of service rather than experience)

I must stress however that many of our new colleagues joining from Ryanair had nothing but good things to say about Ryanair and their time there. They opted out because they felt the 'package' was better at our place. Personally I'm not going to make a negative comment towards Ryanair as others in this thread as I have no connection or have never dealt with them.

So in fairness, there are airlines paying reasonable salaries out there, with packages far superior to in this case Ryanair. Not wanting to get involved in this discussion directly as it has no relevance to me I still feel I have to make the point as a comparison to your post.

[jasonjdr]

Sorry, yes I went off topic there. If anyone wants to discuss further pls PM me.

SD,

Your figures are wrong. My new contract states higher hourly rates. But your point is taken re the 900pa. (ntb, max hrs for line training is 120, avg is about 80 to 90)

Stanstead,

Yes 6% will not give you much from age 37, it was not meant to assume someone who had started from scratch at that age! But luckily I started a looooong time ago saving for my retirement. If you want quotes for insurance PM me :) Although, as I mentioned, it does depend on previous medical conditions and unfortunately you would not be eligible for those sort of premiums as they assume a clean medical history, non-smoker, etc.

Lord Lardy.

:eek::eek::eek:

But you did not state the carrier? and this is to a cadet with no TR fresh out of integrated 200tt. PM me if you prefer not to state in front of all.......but I am intrigued.

(its ok, just figured it out for myself. I had no luck at that door unfortunately. Aren't we all going to be working together soon anyway, hehe :ouch:. Thats another thread, I think!)

[Lord Lardy]

Aren't we all going to be working together soon anyway, hehe http://static.pprune.org/images/smilies/shiner.gif. Thats another thread, I think!)


:eek::eek::eek:

[SD.]

Jason,

I think you'll find the average sectors to initial line check are 80, and that the maximum amount of sectors is 120.

Again, I think you'll find that the rates for a Brookfield contractor are

Less than 500 Hours JAR 25 - €50 per sbh
Greater than 500 Hours but less than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €75 per sbh
Greater than 1500 hours JAR 25 - €80 per sbh

All of the above are minus €4.50 per hour for sim

If Brookfield have put the rates up, then I'll happily be made wrong when that old cheque lands on the doormat. :D

Good luck with the type rating.

[kick the tires]

Poose nice idea but how do you get around:

This is from a Permanent Ryanair's Contract of Employment issued in Oct 06

20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.

[JW411]

Poose:

As a PPL holder and Traumahawk captain you certainly have quite a grasp about what it is like in commercial aviation.

I will only give you one bit of advice.

The excessive use of bold type, italics and underlining reduces your argument more than somewhat.

[5tarbuck]

This is from a Permanent Ryanair's Contract of Employment issued in Oct 06

20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment.


If there was a decent union in FR there'd be no such clause in your contract of employment. This alone is an excellent illustration WHY unions are absolutely necessary to prevent abusive employers screwing their employees.

[drnick384]

This is from a Permanent Ryanair's Contract of Employment issued in Oct 06

20. Excess Capacity
20.1 Because of the uncertainty of the airline business circumstances could arise where Ryanair has excess capacity. If required to reduce our activity level for any reason, it is a condition of this job offer that you accept the right of the Company, at its sole discretion, to give you compulsory unpaid leave for the duration of the period of excess capacity or to terminate your employment. A few points

Yes a company can put you on compulsary unpaid leave

Yes you can claim unemployment benefit

No you can't work anywhere else

But
The said company cannot use ( unless they are pilots on permanent contracts ) or employ someone else to do your job so if pilots on permanent contracts are on temporary lay off which is what it's called, no one (unless they are pilots on permanent contracts) can fly ryr planes

After 21 working days you can request redunancy the company must either reinstate you or make you redundant

If the company reinstates you, you can't be put back on compulsary unpaid leave for a period of 3 months

No company can just terminate your employment without good reason ( lack of work is not a good reason ) you have to be made redundant

And lastly if you sign a contract which is found to contradict the employment laws that part of the contract is void :D

I went through this 12 years ago with another company ( non aviation ) to the best of my memory these facts are correct

[tony2F]

A mate of mine is at ryan, he's there, over 2 yrs, i talked to him the other day,he recons he'll earn €50k after tax this year based at dublin, so dont believe the hype.

Dont get me wrong, I need a job myself right now, and would fly just about anything right now. But some of the quoted figures by ryan simply do not happen in reality. I have 4 mates there ,all saying the same thing. But to be honest all of them are reasonably happy.

good luck to all, and heres to better times ahead!!!!

T

[rubik101]

As the first poster almost said, whatthehellwasthat, just about sums up this whole episode.
It turns out now to be one week for each pilot at each of the two bases in question. Taken together with the four days off in nine, it amounts to 13 days off some time between now and April of next year.
As for Poose who suggests the pilots just turn up for work and demand a flight; do you have any idea how an airline actually operates?
The contract might well have been written by shysters for the benefit of rogues and signed by people desperate to pay the bills but I don't see several hundred redundancies, as there have been in other, less profitable airlines.
Enjoy the two weeks holiday. Jump on a Ryanair flight to the sun or the snow somewhere.

[boyo975]

Rubik, most of your posts are accurate I must admit, but you are one brainwashed puppy.

Can you ever see MOL, DO'B or EW ever taking forced unpaid leave in a company that makes millions everyday.

Very sad indeed....shame we missed the chance for union vote in 2004.

[easymoney]

Rubik101..............

Ye, so two weeks this year.

Next year you reach your 900 hours in 11 months so off you go on your 1 months unpaid leave and so on.

It's an attitude like this that's put us in the situation we are in.

The company is not going under, it's just trying to make more profit, and out of your pocket.

[Ryanairpilot]

Isn't it wonderful how big people can be with their big principles, big opinions and big answers hiding behind a little username on a little messageboard. Some of us have to live with this and can reconcile it because life is about priorities and obligations. Charity will ALWAYS begin at home.

[stansdead]

RyanairPilot

Charity will need to begin in your home according to MOL and his relentless drive to screw you all.

He is laughing at you.

You all should be very, very worried indeed. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that the global economy is going to get even worse, and fast.

How about that 2 weeks off becoming 4,6 or even 8??

It could happen. Ryanair are NOT immune from this downturn. In fact, you are probably even worse placed than many, because travelling of FR has been a discretionary thing for many people.

What happens when they decide that the weekend in Spain can wait? Oh, hang on. It has already, hence giving you forced unpaid leave.

And don't forget all those aircraft on order. How are they gonna be filled?

Who would have thought that :

Northern Rock
Wachovia Bank
HBOS
Merrill Lynch
Lehman Brothers
Bear Stearns
Bradford and Bingley.... would all disappear.

They always made more money than FR ever did, and had at one time, very strong balance sheets too.

Times and circumstances can change.

You are not immune. Be warned. It could get ugly. And as the list of business failures shows, the BIG BOYS can fail too.

[davidathomas42]

Wachovia have gone??

I just logged into my online account and it all seemed ok??

[Rhodes13]

Times and circumstances can change.

You are not immune. Be warned. It could get ugly. And as the list of business failures shows, the BIG BOYS can fail too.

Stansdead you hit the nail somewhat on the head. What you should have said is that ALL airline travel is discretionary probably more so if its long haul. If people start loosing their jobs in large numbers I would be worried about the mass lay offs that follow.

You could argue the semantics but safe to say in the current environment no one is safe. The legacies that people keep saying are the safe houses are struggling with decling yields especially up the front. With the current climate jo bloggs doesn't want to go to anywhere at the moment as he's worried about the bills coming in.

Is what RYR doing fair no, is it better than a p45 hell yes. I like it how you say we should take a stand. Would this be the same stand the virgin boys and girls took when they got laid off back in the dark days of 2001? What exactly is a standoff going to achieve, remember management hold the cards right now there isn't exactly a booming market.

MOL is a business man pure and simple. He does what is necessary to achieve a profit for his share holders. The days of looking after employees are long long gone unless you work in government. Be under no doubts I hate the current situation but Im a realist. I took a job in a highly risky environment and I have to be prepared to take the good with the bad.

I find it funny how easy jet is also offering unpaid leave as well as BA but the fact that RYR is doing so generates 11 pages of some of the most venomous stuff there is accusing RYR pilots of bringing the whole profession into disrepute, and for some a certain sense of gloating I told you so. Whatever happened to respecting a fellow professional. We aren't all like MOL you know and I just go to work to pay the bills.

[the_stranger]

@Rhodes13

Is BA forcing unpaid leave or just offering it? I know two more airlines doing the latter, but both not able to do the former because the unions would oppose (for now :oh: )

RYR is just telling people to forget about their income for a week (or more), and not asking anymore..

[Optimus-Prime]

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/984/ryrky4.jpg

[CaptKremin]

MOL is a business man pure and simple. He does what is necessary to achieve a profit for his share holders.

Just a clarification here.
O'Leary does not try to 'acheive a profit for his shareholders'. Ryanair does not share its profits with shareholders! He does not pay a dividend. This is why FR is swimming in cash.

O'Leary's job is to increase the share price for his shareholders.

He is failing in his job spectacularly at present.

[ahwhataloadofsugar]

just wondering but with the new sims coming online for ryan is there not a lot of positions for co-pilot instructors which could help some of ye guys out? heard from mate who is flying there is always requirement for instructors and the money is great? might be option for some of the people worried they might not be flying for a little while?? :ok:

[Gazeem]

A ryanair 73 has been training constantly in the EMA circuit for the last couple of days. Why train more pilots if they are already putting pilots on unpaid leave?

[CaptKremin]

Poose, that was another excellent post, and you are bang to rights again.
Regarding the new joiners at FR....I don't blame them for taking the crummy deal handed to them, they are pawns in the game.
No, the fault lies squarely with those who are already in FR, and who have decided to desert the field of battle, and run for their lives. It is their responsibility to take a stand and defend their professional status - and the contract conditions enforced on themselves and the newbies. They are derelict in their duty, and they are sufferring the consequences as a result.
Sadly the trickle down affects the whole industry.

I hope you succeed in your training. We need guys like you in this industry, people with a bit of self respect and some fortitude.

If you join FR - who knows - you could be the one to make a difference.

Good luck.

[captplaystation]

Poose,
For your own sake I hope you end up somewhere other than RYR.
Your morals, care for your fellow man, and justified pride in your future profession will quickly be swamped by the apathy ,fear, and me me me mentality that is never too far beneath the surface.
With apologies to Kremin, who will now flame me again.
Aim higher, much higher Poose, whilst this sad shadow of its former self that is our current air transport industry offers some decent jobs for the next few years at least.
BTW, I can see exactly why RYR are going to put permanent pilots on unpaid leave whilst still flying contractors, but before anyone suggests otherwise, I think it SHOULD be the straw that broke the camels back ( not the Leo Hairy camel ) but it won't be , and the camel will hobble on, ever dehydrating as it goes.

[RAT 5]

Just heard on BBC business news that Ford are putting one of its plants on a 4 days week for a month. The transit and Freelander/Jaguar plants are affected. There were no reports of unions going to the barricades over it. No doubt others will follow. So what's the difference at RYR? Reduced capacity/productivity = reduced labour force, even if temporary.
What I do find disappointing is that new a/c are being placed at new bases and having to be flown by new or BRK crews. Surely the homespun employees at one base should be offered the chance to operate from another base and so keep their incomes before new comers are employeed within the network? Is that not the moral stance?

[captplaystation]

Stop calling me Shirley. . . . . "moral stance"/ " Ryanair" shum mishtake shurely ( sorry I called you Shirley too)

[Ryanairpilot]

stansdead

I have not a clue what you are on about. If ryanair fails then we are all out of a job whether we have had a week of unpaid leave or not. (BTW banks always look as if they have strong balance sheets - its the stuff that's 'off balance sheet' that brings em down)

poose

My leadership/management/command training... call it whatever you like, stems from time served at the Royal Military Academy Sandhurst and commissioned service

oh dear:rolleyes:....don't tell me... you were just pipped at the post for the sword too.

a bit more than a two week MCC..

For you it sounds as if the MCC would have been the better choice

I currently cannot afford anywhere because all of my cash is tied up in my training for a profession which may be changing for the worst, because naive newbies and ignoramuses are signing away their rights with abhorrent terms and conditions.

Aaah..now we're getting to the nub of the matter.....but wait a minute..

All of the doommongers and companymen derided me as a troublemaker

Could there possibly be a link here?

Some friendly advice - if you are looking to join an industry that has the same pampered life of the mess and all the allowances and benefits you could ever dream of you will be bitterly disappointed. If you are willing to roll with the punches in a wildly cyclical fickle industry then keep going. It is a decent crust but always have an escape plan. If you are getting this stressed at the initial training stage then I would seriously consider something else. I have been working for over 30 years now. In that time I have worked for quite a few companies, mostly airlines but some not and that includes auntie betty, and trust me there is no utopia. Look after yourself and keep your loved ones safe - anything else is a bonus.

[Tooloose]

Ryanairpilot,
You suggest that the alternative to compulsory unpaid leave is that Ryanair will fail (your word) and all will lose their jobs. If that really were the case then a week of unpaid leave for all would indeed be a wise choice. However, nothing could be further from the truth. MOL and his acolytes miss no opportunity to tell anyone who will listen how much free cash it has in the bank (over £2 billion), that there is no possibility that it will fail, that people should not book with other airlines which might fail and that Ryanair will still be there when all other airlines have failed. No, the purpose of this cheap trick is not to protect your job but to soften you up to accept winter layoff as the norm in future years and eventually " sorry, no work for you today, come back tomorrow we might have some for you then". Make no mistake about it this was the way business was done in many industries before the advent of unions and is the standard to which the likes of MOL would like to return. It is a pity to see such naiveity in one so experienced as your good self. Don't believe everything they tell you and don't accept everything they do to you as your due. This industry was not always as harsh as you say. It got like this due to the attitude of certain employers aided by the docility of some of their employees. It doesn't have to keep getting worse but it will if the prevalent attitude of grateful acceptance of mistreatment continues to prevail.

[Ryanairpilot]

Tooloose (et al)

You suggest that the alternative to compulsory unpaid leave is that Ryanair will fail (your word)

RTFP I was responding to stansdead's implication that ryanair would fail.


Since you all seem to blame ryanair pilots for your and others current terms and conditions why dont you join ryanair and continue your principled crusade from within? Nah, thought not. (cue multiple posts "I'd never work for them..."). Quite happy to hurl insults from the safety of anonymity.

No, the purpose of this cheap trick is not to protect your job but to soften you up to accept winter layoff as the norm in future years

There you go - if you worked for ryanair you would know that everybody knows how he works. Believe me I'm no fan of oleary's methods but he has created such a disparate workforce that united action is nigh on impossible.

Make no mistake about it this was the way business was done in many industries before the advent of unions

Again if you worked for ryanair you would know that there is a significant feeling of being led up the garden path by the unions about a year ago. I'm afraid they share 50% of the blame for the current malaise.

Everybody should go and read all the posts by Rubik101 (who I do not know) and captplaystation (who I do know and is a very experienced and respected pilot) and accept those as a general indication of the attitude of the main pilot body in ryanair. If you cannot accept that then this message board is not the place for you.

Please do not respond with "My mate says that......".

If you do not know first hand, then you do not know.

[stansdead]

Ryanairpilot,

I never said would fail.... more like could fail. Just like anyone else.

However, you are one misguided, angry, foolish :mad: .

Enjoy your week off.:mad:

[jupilair]

Hey Poose,

I hope for you the best and I hope that straight after your training you will get your dream job, but I am afraid that nowadays, you will have to join the queue and most probably before joining FR or others well known companies you will have to take already some weeks or perhaps months of unpaid leave.
I don't wish you this way but it's the way of 90% of ab initio's.
You begin full of hope sending cv everywhere, sure that within a week you will receive a positive answer...weeks pass...before you received your first negative answer, after some more weeks and negative answers you begin to think to do instruction flights, towing gliders flights.... but the problem is that even for those flights the queue is really long.
More time, less money, more time, less money, more time, less money... after the first year you begin to consider"Oh my god" to pay for a TR, you use the bottom of your pocket to pay it but even there you discover that the selection is not easy and willing to pay don't open directly all the doors.
Let's say after all, that you secure a TR and a contract with FR, most probably in debt, you will just want to fly the max hours to secure a good future for you...and your family( if you succeed to create one or even harder to kept the one you had before your training).
By then if you have the balls to stand-up, to open your mouth with the risk to loose everything, You will become, for sure, my hero...

Happy landing

[Diamond_Dog]

SPEECH! & alas well said!

[gatbusdriver]

It is very difficult to put myself in the position of a FR pilot. It is very easy to say how I would behave, what I would do, from the sidelines and with the comfort of working for a company that has union recognition. I certainly don't envy you guys (unless I become unemployed!).

I don't know the in's and out's of what has gone on before with Balpa and Ialpa. What I do know is that I have better T's and C's working for my lot because of our CC and membership (since 2001). We don't win all of our battles by any stretch of the imagination, but we do win some, and find a lot of middle ground on others, and of course lose the rest.

Maybe the opportunity for recognition for you guys is totally lost, as Ryanairpilot says I do not know first hand. But surely it is worth giving them another chance (even if they did drop you in it first time around), keeping the hope alive that there is a possibility of recognition.

[ballyboley]

Jupilair - Couldn't agree more.

On a different note, could any current FR pilots possibly give me the contacts of a good accountant/tax advisor. The one I have hasn't been working out. Ideally someone who's had experience of reclaiming the VAT on type rating etc. I'm on brookfield.
PM me if its easier.

Many thanks

[Ryanairpilot]

:rolleyes:

There stansdead, is that better, got that off your chest?

Easy isn't it this anonymity malarkey?

34 you say? Very mature.

[Tooloose]

It is being suggested that " the union" has in some way led Ryanair pilots up the garden path. I think it is worth giving the other side of the story and while I do not have full information a little background might be helpful. Over the past couple of years a number of successful court cases were brought by IALPA and its parent union IMPACT (yes, that joke has been made already, thank you) on behalf of individual Ryanair pilots. For the most part these achieved satisfactory results. The issue to which reference is being made in this thread seems to be the case which was brought under the Industrial Relations Act as amended in 2004. This new legislation allowed the Labour Court to make a ruling in disputes which arose in companies which refused to recognise unions and where the Court was satisfied on the basis of testimony and evidence provided by both sides that the company did not provide any real, as opposed to pretended, internal means of dispute resolution. Such a case was brought on behalf of a number of very courageous Ryanair pilots and the Labour Court found in their favour. The intent of the legislation was that such a finding would be legally enforceable. Ryanair appealed this finding to the High Court but the union won again. Ryanair then appealed the High Court finding to the Supreme Court and the result of that was that the Supreme Court found that the Legislation did not comply with the constitution in that in infringed the rights of employers. In oher words, Ryanair won. Costs were awarded against the union. The only option for further legal action was to start again at the beginning. The legal advice was that the result would be the same, that the union would be liable for costs again and, given that the first round cost the union a seven figure sum, that the best course of action would be to seek to have the legislation changed so that it would be more watertight. This is the new legislation to which reference has been made in another thread by CaptKremin. As has been mentioned by another poster, it is unrealistic to expect a union to win every battle. In this case, the union put in enormous efoort over several years and incurred enormous expence on behalf of Ryanair pilots. They won every round except, sadly, the last one. Many Ryanair pilots made enormous sacrifices during this action and their efforts were unsuccessful. However, even though that battle was lost, their are some who feel that this cause is still worth fighting for. I can understand how some of the posters here feel disappointed but it is grossly incorrect to suggest that the union somehow sought to let down the pilots in Ryanair. What is most disappointing is to see the enormous lengths some people are prepared to go to to persuade their colleagues that their position is hopelss and that any effort to organise and protect themselves is doomed. Whose agenda do you think they are working to?

[the grim repa]

i am one of many pilots who believe this cause is still worth fighting for and will do so until my dying breath.much great work has been done and gone unacknowledged,largely without support from the main pilot group in the past number of years by certain brave individuals and the unions up to and including worldwide pilot associations.because it is not readily apparent or shouted about by some egomaniac ceo,then people assume incorrectly that nothing has been done.the sad fact though is that until the pilot group is educated enough to see what is happening,then the struggle is difficult.the pilots are the fulcrum to topple the balance for change.when that happens?maybe a factor og how far they are pushed.i know for a fact that action by the pilots as a group would bring about change fairly swiftly.i keep working to and aiming for that day.it will come,when is the decision of the pilot group.

[UK Viking]

What is wrong with you guys, why are you so angry ? It seems you have done something stupid and got a kick in the ass but did'nt have the balls to stand it even though it might have been deserved !! Ryanair is a very strong business company, they provide good and safe positions if YOU follow their way of doing this business, I am Scandinavian, used to be working for a very well known and respected company there, found the future a little "dangerous" in that company (they just sacked 86 pilots !!)and decided to try Ryanair. I tell you, the way Ryanair is doing their best to save jobs is exact the way my former union in Scandinavia would have come to as a solution, sharing the unpaid leave between the whole base is absolutely the best way for everyone, and further more, how come i actually LIKE to work for Ryanair, roster is good, pay is good, pension is good etc. ? Don't tell me to dislike my company, I do like to work for Ryanair, they do tough business, but they survive the crises and I still got my GOOD paycheck every month, even without a union. I perfectly understand if you have trouble with Ryanair, they dont want you lazy union guys at all, you guys just think that you should be nursed through the life following rules that kills all airline business these days, just to make you big fat and happy, grow up and be realistic, with that attitude forget it and find another way of living.

Rgds UK Viking

[the grim repa]

very good,simplistic view uk viking - what about next year when you reach your 900 hours in 10 months and then you are put on 2 months unpaid leave.you must be a simpleton to think that is about saving jobs.i do not know what ryanair you work for but the one i work for took our pensions away in 2003.if we were lazy,the last thing we would be doing is trying to educate pilots as to the history of industrial relations and their impact on your future.especially for people who could not give a hoot about their fellow workers or in some cases themselves.keep your head in the sand and do a bit of research on your future during your week off WITHOUT pay.by the by,one does not have to dislike their company to try and make changes for their best interests.should we hand over the total running of our lives to the ceo.so good a job he does,not!

[zuz]

Uk Viking: I think you will find that the issue here is not that unpaid leave is being shared around both bases but the fact that permanent staff are getting the leave and contract staff are not!!!!

[qzsedrftg]

UK Viking, you've got some groing up to do mate, and fast! Smell the coffee, BA will also weather the crisis, so is Virgin and Lufthansa... good companies make profits most of the time and exceptionnaly lose money, generally stay on their feet. This is one of the deepest of crisis, we all agree, and every single company is in it. Ryanair's management should just take it on the chin and take the hit like men, there is no shame in those circumstances to not do so well, but it is a disgrace to jump on the occasion to screw us more. They DO NOT save money by forcing us on unpaid leave, this is a myth. The contractors will fly for us and they cost money as well. Just to point you the right direction, this is a paycut and nothing to do with saving jobs. btw, what's this business of us "getting what we deserve"?? Weirdo.

[UK Viking]

Grim, I don't know which Ryanair you work for ? Those days are gone, most pilots do just about a little more than 800 hours and since Ryanair introduced the 5/4 roster they also are making an effort to do an average to every month of the year, long time since I have heard of anyone being laid off for a month or two in the winter. If any Ryanair pilot should reach the 900 hours, the pay would still be the same, and you certainly need the months off anyway. Myself, I am doing at the most about 600 hours a year for the time being, that affects on the other hand my sector pay so no matter what situation you might be in, you can always find something that doesn't work exactly as you want it to. Nobody has been forced to join Ryanair, I choosed them because the majority if not all of my former colleges from Scandinavia who joined Ryanair in the last few years, was speaking very well for the company. The terms and condition you are expecting doesn't exist anymore, I even do believe you are to young to ever have experienced those glorious days of aviation ? Be a little more positive and the world would probably not be so mean to you. :)

Rgds UK Viking

[UK Viking]

Yes contractors don't get unpaid leave, they get less hours a month and it only takes a few less flying hours to make the same loss as one week of unpaid leave for the Ryanair pilots.

Rgds UK Vilking

[the grim repa]

all due respect cock,but you are living in cloud cuckoo land.i am amazed at your naivety.i can tell you now for a fact that the majority of the scandinavian pilots who joined ryanair have left the company and i can pm you their names,should you need education on that count also.the reason being in my experience that they were astute pilots and respectful people who shared a view of the common good.which makes your stance even more alien to how i know the majority of scandinavian pilots.

"those days are gone",maybe you can remind me of what actually took place in those days.i have been in ryanair over 12 years now and with all the positivity in the world old bean,i think you are in denial,just joined,just got command or are a bullshooter!

mathematics i learned at school tells me that if,you make x amount per hour for 900 hours sector pay,and work for 10 months salary you earn less than if you earn 900 hours sector pay and work for 12 months salary.but you may very well be a contractor and not give a hoot if permanent pilots are given unpaid leave to accomodate your continued self betterment.

the glorious days of aviation/those terms and conditions do not exist anymore,symptomatic of many working in ryanair is the phenomenon whereby the individuals self worth deteriorates and they even begin to believe that what management does and the way they are treated is normal.it is not,and in time you will well understand that.

i have no problem with positivity/live and let live.However i will not stand idly by and let my future/prospects/career be rode roughshod over by some mega millionaire egomaniac.but you know all this in the back of your mind and that is why you come on here with half arsed naive attempt to justify a management who has over 2 billion in the bank,who up until this year was making a half a billion after tax profit per year and look to be one of the only companies who will make any profit this year,whose ceo choose not to hedge fuel at 70 to 80 dollars per barrel,waited for oil to peak and then hedged at the mid 120 dollars per barrel and who is not hedged from december 31st this year.some would say you are very understanding,i would call it otherwise.

thanks for the regards though.i believe it is important to maintain our respect for each other despite fr managements best efforts to demean us.good luck to you and when the truth hits you,i hope you can roll with it.

[UK Viking]

qzsedrftg, what a temper, relax and please use a civilized language !! You surtanly have a problem, guys like you are not the types you want to handle any machines. Someone definitely have pissed on you. You mentioned all the companies in your favour, what about SAS, the former Scandinavian pride trying to survive by being sold to Lufthansa, already sacking pilots. I tell you, if you dont want the Ryanair job, leave it, you act as a "spoiled child", what did Ryanair do to you ? Or did they just not do it your way or your fathers ?

UK Viking

[UK Viking]

Grim, what keeps you in Ryanair, 12 years ? Thanks for your thoughts about my status. I do not want to print my thoughts of you but I have my ideas. If you really do respect others on this forum at least you could use decent language as well ? Do you know that it is not healthy to stay so many years in the same position/Company ? Stress kills !! I'll bet you have applyed to lots of jobs, but your personality is your greatest enemy, it shines from your posts on this forum.

UK Viking

[the grim repa]

wrong on all counts baby.why should i leave?where did i address you with indecent language?you know nothing about me so best leave your theories for another day?however you are free to voice your opinion on me or any other matters.freedom of speech is the essence of civilisation,you will not find the same sentiment evident within fr management.answer me this,is it true that you are a contractor and as such will not be directly affected by the forced unpaid leave?tell the truth now.you alredy gave the game away.how much will you bet that i have applied for other jobs?why is it not healthy?does stress kill?

off the topic,why do you sign all your posts "uk viking"?just curious.

at your leisure you can address any of my points at post 20:46.should you feel the need stoke up debate.cheers cock.regards.

[CaptKremin]

The intent of the legislation was that such a finding would be legally enforceable. Ryanair appealed this finding to the High Court but the union won again. Ryanair then appealed the High Court finding to the Supreme Court and the result of that was that the Supreme Court found that the Legislation did not comply with the constitution in that in infringed the rights of employers.Good potted history Tooloose, I hope it has enlightened a few benighted brows here.

Meanwhile, after a short absence, I decided to log on again to bring you lot the next bit of news coming down the wires about this faulty 2004 legislation (the bit Ryanair exploited).

More history required for the uninitiated.....

This summer the Irish people were the only europeans given the opportunity to vote on the Lisbon Treaty. Much to the chagrin of our ruling party, and their friends in europe, the Irish people rejected the treaty, thus stalling the european Super-State project.
It is widely rumoured that the mandarins of the EU are leaning heavily on the Irish government to re-run the vote as soon as possible (...or else!).

This afternoon, the leader of SIPTU (the largest Union in Ireland) warned the government that they would actively campaign AGAINST a "Lisbon Treaty Mark2" if the forthcoming legislation on Collective Bargaining is not solid and effective. Last time round SIPTU made no recommendation either way to its membership. A NO campaign will guarentee a second defeat. Such a scenario would almost certainly result in the fall of the government.

So, lads, just let this play out. We'll see who's right.
As I forecast before - O'Bleary will get his comeuppance this time, because when the chips are down for the ruling party - they'll sell him down the river before letting power slip from their fingers. They hate the b'stard more than I do. He's a thorn in every politicians side, which makes him a liability in this scenario. I'd lay odds now he'll be gone by next summer.

Bye Bye Micko!!

PS Keep an ear open for the 'softening up' language from low ranking politicians which will likely talk about the necessity to protect workers from 'unscrupulous and expoitatative employers'. It'll be especially interesting to hear the 'unofficial' and 'off record' responses to this SIPTU threat.

[jupilair]

There is something I don't really understand. If all the FR pilots with Fr contract are rostered during the winter time without unpaid leave, most of them will end up every month with a lot of stanby's and most probably with an average of let's say 40-50 hours, so really a low flight pay but for sure with a full basic salary. Now with the plan of everyone receiving one week of unpaid leave it will mean a reduction of basic salary but a lot less stby's so most probably an average of 70-80 hrs an month with a big flight cheque? So what's the best no reduction on the basic salary but a continuous reduction on the flight pay every winter months or a reduction of 2 % of the basic salary(on a 12 months basis) and a good average flight cheque???? I know the best would be no reductions at all but if there is less flights it's one or the other....

[jupilair]

Yeah ok that's true they could give 7 days of stby to every body without unpaid leave but in that case they pay you knowing that they will not call you and you will do nothing, hmmm, I guess not really the style of FR...

[leeds 65]

Michael is leaving soon anyway,he wont be pushed out and your extremely naive and thick if you think he will be.he will go out when HE chooses simple as that.fr management are great at what they do (from a business perspective) and the business model wont change much for his successor.

Although there is a constitutional right to join a trade union, there is no right to have a union recognised. This has been confirmed by the courts many times.

Never ever expect greatness from any govt especially the irish govt.extremely inefficient and tedious in every respect.everybody should know this already.this so called 'wonderful legislation that will kill micko' is quite frankly laughable.refer to my second paragraph.

im pretty sure all the xl pilots would like unpaid leave rather then no job.

having a unionised company im sure would be great however unions are like govts.slow to react and inefficient.there advantages outway there disadvantages but only slightly.unions wipe there hands when the !!!! hits the fan very rapidly(as was previously evidenced),unfortunately.:{

[westie]

So who's going to test this enforced leave in a court?? Any takers??

[limagolf]

People don't get it. This is not about preserving jobs, it is part of the long term
strategy of Ryanair to renegotiate contracts during bad times, when people feel
the most unseccure. They do it with Boeing, the airport operators and of course their own staff.:eek:

[captplaystation]

I wish I could disagree, but . . . . . . ;)

[simba1]

O' Leary will never leave..he is a one trick pony. Having discovered the low cost airline model from Southwest he just capitalised on that and (unlike Southwest) decided to screw the employees in the process. Unless you are talking about some low cost carrier in Burma, Sudan or such places (where abuse is encouraged), he wouldn't make it in any other industry. He continues to abuse all Ryanair employees. His Modus Operandi is greed and fear and sadly it is quite effective. The Aviation Authorities, particulalry the Irish one, don't challenge him, as they get some serious money from Ryanair. Goverments, up to now have been accepting of his bullying approach, knowing full well that he is riding roughshod over industrial relations legislation. Nevertheless there are still brave and principled people in Ryanair who are willing to take a stand and challenge this abuse. The latest issue of forced unpaid leave is only one in a long list of employee and industrial relations abuses and there are more to come. Bullies (and that's all O'Leary is) only stop when stood up to. Ultimately it is the principled opposition of united employees that will resolve this issue.

[RYR-738-JOCKEY]

Ultimately it is the principled opposition of united employees that will resolve this issue.
Which will never happen. Make no mistake, Ryanair is not a typical airline. Our pilot group is so diverse and split. Every new joiner has his own reasons to join. Some come from longhaul to be able to get home every night, some come for command upgrade, cadets join for the "glory" of flying shiny jets and some join as contractors for the (tax free :eek:) salary.
50 nationalities I believe we have. Do you really think that a Russian CP making three times more with FR than he used to, an Italian based in Ciampino living at home, an Irish FO getting command within 3 years or a cadet owing 130 k's all have the same common goal. I don't think so. Ryanair will cease to exist by that time.
About the forced annual leave which should start in Nov, it has actually already started. I've talked to a few whom suddenly without notice have two weeks A/L on their roster. :{

[jupilair]

Yes but annual leave is pay 76 € a day, that's what make the difference....

[the grim repa]

leeds 65.what an absolute load of twaddle.you obviously know sugar all about what is going on here.you must be one oft graduate who has no clue whatsoever they are talking about.did you amass all this knowledge about "micheal",unions,the courts and the irish governent in your 21 years or in your 1 year since leaving flight school(joined ryanair 26th may,2008).let me guess ryanair allow you to pay for your rating(first job 200 hours) and you think you are buddies with mol.i would pick your post asunder but it is so blatantly absolute rubbish,i think i will give it a miss.get your head out of your ass,norbert.

for all you posters who say we cannot change,this will never happen.those who generally feel defeated,blah,blah,blah,get lost and let those who have backbone to get on with it.pussies.

[heli_port]

Four hundred Ryanair pilots and cabin crew will be forced to take one week of unpaid leave this year as the budget airline cuts back flights from Dublin and Stansted.

Michael O’Leary, the chief executive of Ryanair, said the airline’s executives would also receive a pay cut of at least 10 per cent because of the financial difficulties facing the sector.

Ryanair crews must take unpaid leave, says Michael O'Leary - Times Online (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/transport/article4901947.ece)

http://img2.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/angel/pray.gif (http://www.mysmiley.net/free-aim-smileys.php)

[spinnaker]

This isn't leave, this is 'LAY OFFS' in which case doesnt this make Ryanair the number one airline for loss of employment?

[the grim repa]

the executives are not taking any pay cut and this is only an illusion of team balance.it is absolute rubbish.

[TolTol]

Great post RYR-738-JOCKEY, you summed it up perfectly.:D

[the grim repa]

not so!again it may be easier to believe you are defeated and do nothing about it rather than stand up and face your demons.738 your post is full of assumptions and generalisations.believe in your fellow pilots not belittle them as groups,whom you know little of.look at the individual not what management wish you to believe.

[BongleBear]

for all you posters who say we cannot change,this will never happen.those who generally feel defeated,blah,blah,blah,get lost and let those who have backbone to get on with it.pussies.

grim repa, i'm always reading your posts, reading how you give all your colleagues abuse about not having backbone. when i first joined ryanair i heard all about repa and over the following 6 months got quite excited about how repa would change the company through winning the court cases and finally getting that union recognition.
three years on and what has happened? ryanair constantly win the battles, i don't care how, and the negotiations over pay deals always go the way of the company.
when will repa do something about it? i know you'll say it's not upto repa, it's upto the pilots, but aren't repa supposed to be the organisation behind it all?
have you all admitted defeat now aswell? have you finally realised that we're going to have to take this !!!! because believe it or not we are lucky to have jobs in this climate?
i suppose it's just not the right time to fight, let's wait another few years hey, then we'll do something about it.

[CaptKremin]

BongleBear, the largest union in Ireland - SIPTU - is today deliberating on whether or not to recommend its members vote for the new National Wage Agreement. This agreement contains legislative changes which are designed to blow O'Leary and his bullying tactics right out of the water.

There is no guarentee the NWA will be recommended by SIPTU, especially after a very harsh budget yesterday, but I believe it will pass, on the proviso that the government makes the promised legal changes. I believe they will indeed happen because the country is teetering on the of economic collapse and does not need the chaos of wage strikes.

Thus the writing is on the wall for O'Leary. Give it a few more months - the acts are due in June I believe. Read the thread again, esp my earlier posts.

[the grim repa]

bonglebear - what would you have me do for you?honestly if you have something to suggest,let me know!

in the interim,i will correct you on a few items.ryanair do not win all cases,that is the impression that they would have you believe.to keep you from attempting change.in 3 years a lot has happened and there is a lot to be positive about,it is just not readily apparent on a daily basis but have a good sniff around.one can only build a house on a solid foundation.what these foundation components are,you will find much discussion on these topics on REPA - Ryanair European Pilots' Association (http://www.repaweb.org)
i know only too well how frustrating this situation is,but change is possible and i have far from accepted defeat.i see the way forward is in ryanair pilots deciding what they want with their lives and not being treated as idiots by an oppressive management.pilots have to believe that they are worth more as a united group and then strive to achieve that status.

why are you lucky to have a job in this climate?again i hark back to the degradation of self esteem when working at ryanair.continued attack by management at ryanair leads people to believe that they are less worthy.look at yourself and what you have achieved.i believe you and other pilots are worth much more than you believe you are.

[CIPO]

Bongle Bear, have a think about this. Repa has of course not had much sucess to date tackling the issue of the Ryanair pilots getting gang raped by the management. However you miss the point that its up to the PILOTS themselves under guidance/direction from REPA to address the t & c's spiral dive. Don't you think a group of say 100 Capts who come to the conclusion 'You know what, :mad: this. We've had enough so lets sit at home today rather than fly our shiney new 738 about........' would perk up the ears of MOL, PB, EW, DOB etc......
FO's are 2 a penny, Capt's have the ability to hurt the rapists.........

[qzsedrftg]

even just the threat of it.. in the mean time: work-to-rule! maybe we'll get rid of that unsafe fuel supervising for starters.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

I thought I'd caught a whiff of low tide. What an unsavoury little gathering! Didimus, Kretin and CIPO all on the same page.

What they forget to point out in their union recruiting drive, Leeds 65 and 738 Jockey, is that they've wasted a small fortune of other people's money taking on Ryanair over the years and lost miserably every time. They've wasted literally millions of €uro shoving their canary down the Ryanair coal mine and the poor little creature came up dead as a dodo, broke as a badger, and plucked of all his tail feathers.....yet they persist. The Black Knight (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eMkth8FWno&feature=related) would be proud.

Never mind that Ryanair pilots have demonstrated repeatedly that they don't want a union, most knowing full well just how feckless and self-interested they are (and those that didn't certainly do now thanks to the REPA comedy hour) but evidently most pilots would rather spend their thousand quid in annual membership fees on something that lingers more favourably upon the imagination than a bunch of failed, malajusted nincompoops who won't take no for an answer.

[Temet_Nosce]

Meanwhile:

"Ryanair exercise option for 10 Boeing aircraft"

FORBES (http://www.forbes.com/afxnewslimited/feeds/afx/2008/10/16/afx5565177.html)

[Noxegon]

I have images of Michael O'Leary at a card table, pushing forward all his chips and saying "All in!".

[stansdead]

Ryanairpilot

Yes, I am 34. I don't like what you stand for, I don't like your attitude and I don't like your smartarse know it all way of talking.

Your terms and conditions are terrible, and are getting worse. Enjoy.

[curser]

Ay, Leo never let the facts get in the way of a good rant. Spent a fortune, possibly, but money well spent. Lost every time, you wish, I can think of a number of victories.Self interest groups, you got me there, give me an example of one Unionized pilot body of comparable size paid less than the poor old Ryan Air lads and lassies, no; we're very self interested and determined to remain so. Ps that bad smell, its your own mate, stop talking through your arse.

[CaptKremin]

I thought I'd caught a whiff of low tide.
Leo, although I expect your proboscis is indeed of Pinnochio-like dimensions by now, don't overestimate your olfactory prowess. The fragrance you detect is merely that of the brimming bull!!!! trickling down your own trouser leg.

[CaptKremin]

BongleBear, the largest union in Ireland - SIPTU - is today deliberating on whether or not to recommend its members vote for the new National Wage Agreement. This agreement contains legislative changes which are designed to blow O'Leary and his bullying tactics right out of the water.

There is no guarentee the NWA will be recommended by SIPTU, especially after a very harsh budget yesterday, but I believe it will pass, on the proviso that the government makes the promised legal changes. I believe they will indeed happen because the country is teetering on the of economic collapse and does not need the chaos of wage strikes.

Thus the writing is on the wall for O'Leary. Give it a few more months - the acts are due in June I believe. Read the thread again, esp my earlier posts.And now - as I predicted....................

SIPTU recommends Yes Vote

Date Released: 22 Oct 2008

The proposal for a “Transitional Agreement” to extend for 21 months from the end of last March should be considered against the background of a sustained assault on the quality of employment in Ireland and the circumstances prevailing today.
Basic conditions, which many would have taken for granted until recently, have been under attack through outsourcing, etc. Accordingly, in addition to trying to secure a pay increase for workers across the board, we have to win better employment protection legislation to combat exploitation and prohibit victimisation of workers trying to organise to defend their rights. If we do not remain focussed on this, the unscrupulous element among the employers will enjoy an increasing competitive advantage over organised workers, ultimately undermining security and quality of employment generally. Winning this legislation is an uphill struggle. However, we have made a certain degree of progress in the original ‘Towards 2016 Agreement’ and further advances in this proposal.

Welcome to SIPTU - The Union For All Workers - 2008 (http://www.siptu.ie/PressRoom/NewsReleases/2008/Name,10435,en.html)
Thats the FIRST nail securely hammered into O'BLeary.
More will follow.