NATS Banding

[Data Dad]

I am starting this thread to try and separate Banding from the current NATS Payrise/Pensions one even though, IMHO there are inextricably linked lessons from the past between them.

I will start with a history lesson prompted by a recent post by GT3 on the payrise thread and aimed squarely at those NATS ATCOs who have joined in the last 15 years. I make no apologies if this gets rather long!

Prior to 1987, anyone lucky enough to be selected for a CAA Cadetship (as it was then) started at the College of knowledge as an ATCO Cadet. This “status” lasted for 9 months whilst you did your basic, unit famil, licence & tech and Aerodrome Control courses followed by a FULL PPL course. Subject to successful progress through those you gained the grade of ATCO IV. Even back then there was constant tinkering with the course content BUT at the start you knew whether you were doing an Airport or Area Course. As I was “Airport” I am somewhat hazy as to what happened to the “Area” people on becoming ATCO IV but for Airport people we were then posted to a unit to validate our ADC ratings.



Approx. 10 months later you returned to the college to do Approach (procedural) then Approach (Radar) courses before retunring to your unit to validate those. Some 2.5 years after starting your Cadetship you Graduated and if you were at that point valid in all ratings you became an ATCO II pre-PPR (Performance and Progression Review) – a status that lasted for 5 years.

IRRESPECTIVE of where you worked ALL ATCOs of the same grade/seniority earned the SAME PAY because we were (still are theoretically) a mobile grade. When the 5 years were up, you had the PPR and then moved to the ATCO II Post PPR scale which again was the same at ALL UNITS.

In 1987 the first WPP agreement came into being which recognised the differences between working at Heathrow and Cardiff (purely for example – no disrespect meant to my colleagues there!) – new ATCOs posted to some units (Heathrow/Gatwick/Manchester/LATCC/SCOATC) would be ATCO 2 elsewhere they would be ATCO 3.



The ATCO II’s at ATCO 3 units would become “Retained Rights ATCO II’s” and stay on the higher pay scales, whilst their newer colleagues would be on a lower pay scale – at that time the difference between ATCO 3 top of scale and ATCO 2 was about £5K.

(See the connection with two-tier pensions here?).



It was said that this would not affect ATCO II’s as natural progression would see them (retained rights ATCOs) gradually move on/retire.

Jump forward to 1993 and in an effort to speed up the process, CAA/NATS offered to “buy-out” the retained rights ATCOs for sums that varied depending on length of service from about £3K to a maximum of £20k for those in the roughly 50-55yo bracket. Many took the dosh, others elected for a “posting of your choice to a an ATCO 2 unit”.

(Again, see the possible link to two-tier pensions and the “it’s ok you can keep your current one, it will only affect new joiners”?)

Having opted for the posting, I personally spent the next 8 years trying to get just that – every 6 months I would get a letter saying Posting Delayed until xxx and it caused me personally a huge amount of external (home wise) aggro – growing family, never knowing where we would be in x-months time. Eventually I got so fed up, I took a revised offer to buy-out my retained rights and reverted to ATCO 3.

Fast forward to 200? and we get banding which just compounds the problem for those of us who have already been through the process before. The difference between ATCO 2 Band 5 and ATCO 3 Band 2 is now over £20K pa – and we all used to be one happy family being paid the same rates – perhaps that explains some of the strong feelings often expressed on these forums.

Personally I do believe that there should be Unit Banding/grading call it what you will but the difference has become too big. As to those who say “get a posting” well tried that – got nowhere, everwhere is short of people (at one point in the late 1990’s my unit had only 15 fully valid Airport ATCO’s on a requirement of 25!) – and I am now not a youngster anymore J

Final iniquity in the current system – if I did manage to get a move to a say Heathrow – (Band 2 ATCO 3 to Band 5 ATCO 2) – NATS do NOT consider that a promotion! So initially there is absolutely no financial gain for at least a year.

If you have got this far – well done! ( Happy to accept corrections on dates etc as it’s a long time ago )

Standing back waiting for incoming

DD

[BAND4ALL]

Nice post DD flak jackets and hats on!!:ok:

[mr.777]

Separate thread was a good idea, and your post was very informative for those of us who have ,as you say, joined in the last 15 years.

[anotherthing]

DD

Good, informative post - but would you have had the time to write it if you worked at a band 5 unit? (That was so a joke).

I agree there should be a differential in pay, but strongly believe that the gulf top and bottom far too huge.

[GT3]

DD thanks for that info :ok:

[chevvron]

DD; I too tried to get posted from an 'ATCO 3' unit to an 'ATCO 2' unit for eight years without success, eventually I applied for a vacant post at my then present unit thus stayed an ATCO 2. Others were not so lucky; one who refused to accept a downgrade was compulsorily transferred to another unit, failed to validate and ended up at the college, so he won out in the salary scales in the end!!
I agree there should be a differential between units, but NOT as large a differential as presently exists, as it causes people (and we have one at the moment) to want to move on elsewhere as soon as they validate sorry achieve unit competency, thus there is always a heavy training workload and we're always short of dual valid controllers (ADI and APS)

By the way, I did the original ATCO cadet course; 3 years including PPL training with aerodrome, approach, approach radar, area and area radar ratings at the end. We also did a two week course with BEA (BA nowadays) learning how to fly a Trident (sims only of course) plus actual airways navigation at a flying school which taught CPL courses.

[pikman]

And the gap will only get bigger year on year with pay rises being the same percentage across the board. Don't know if it's still the case, but when I was in the forces they gave differing levels of percentage pay rises from bottom of pay scale to top of scale to prevent the gap between "rich" and "poor" from expanding. So maybe this year us band 2s could get maybe 10%, and you band 5s out there could get, let's say, 0.5%. :rolleyes:

[Data Dad]

anotherthing - I accept your jest! I only had time to write it because I am temporarily partially incapacitated and medicated and therefore not working.

Chevvron, I did the BA Trident course too - great fun and on my flight in the real thing got to sit in the right hand seat in the cruise both ways using my newly acquired knowledge to occasionally twiddle the autopilot (under strict supervision of course). How times have changed.

[NC86]

Band 5's get 0.5%... the way things are looking we should be so lucky!!!!!

[Vlad the Impaler]

Band 2 ATCO 3 to Band 5 ATCO 2 IS a promotion as I am off to Heathrow in the new year and although I am a Band 3 ATCO 2 I get my 2 points for promotion as I am going to a higher banded unit even though I am staying an ATCO 2.

[Gonzo]

Chevvers.....

I agree there should be a differential between units, but NOT as large a differential as presently exists, as it causes people (and we have one at the moment) to want to move on elsewhere as soon as they validate sorry achieve unit competency, thus there is always a heavy training workload

How ironic that the same is also true of my band five unit; many put their posting request in very soon after validation.

[throw a dyce]

DD,
Incoming.It's quite clear that when our fantasmigorical union stitched up the Atco 3 units at the time,then management must have thought this is wonderful.The union is doing our dirty work for us.
The Banding formula only confirmed this again.I burst out laughing when the union were explaining how they had spent so much time,stabbing us in the back again.
I cannot see how anything will ever change with this issue.The damage is done,and the pay differential will only increase every year.The answer is look after your own interest.If people leave for the sandpit then excellent.They are looking after themselves.If people stay put,then you only get what you pay for.The ones that are doing extra this,or free that are only doing managements job for them.If people did nothing else than what they are contracted to,and that includes stopping AVAA then we might just get somewhere.If people want to leave the union,then why not.I pay the same as a Band5 Atco,but what do we get in return? A magazine.:D
As far as I'm concerned,my ''career'' ended in Nats in 1991.Since then I am a freelancing contract Atco,who works there because of personal circumstances.I care about Nats as little as they care or have cared about me.:suspect:

[Data Dad]

Vlad,

I maybe mis-stated the promotion thing. I should have made clear I was referring to the pre-banding state of affairs - an ATCO 3 (operational) Posted to an ATCO 2 (operational) post. We were told quite categorically that it did not qualify as a promotion. That has obviously changed.

TAD - can't remember the last time I did an operational AAVA and I am unlikely to do any more. However, for now I doubt there will be little difficulty getting others to do them. (Check PM's)

DD

[Tower Ranger]

Throw A dyce,

That is the most realistic post i have seen on this forum in years!

[Standard Noise]

Realistic enough to get you back here earning a pittance like the rest of us?:}

[Caesartheboogeyman]

of course you pay the same union fees. You would expect the same help/representation in any dispute wouldnt you? or would you expect halfway through some meeting ofr them to up and leave and go represent a band 5 unit atco as they had paid more and needed help?

[throw a dyce]

As a percentage of my pay,I pay a higher rate than a top of the scale Band 5 Atco.This unit has in the past had a very raw deal from Nats and the unions.Many people have left the union ,at the disgusting treatment that has happened.I'm still in the union for some strange reason.Perhaps it's more in hope than anything else.:uhoh:

[The Fat Controller]

Doesn't Prospect have banded fees according to your salary?
I expect all experienced NATS ATCOs fall into the highest band, just goes to show you where our salaries are in relation to other people in the union who have "professional" jobs.

[throw a dyce]

Yes,From their web site over £33K it's £15.30 a month.That's the top rate.Point is what do I get for £183.60 p.a. when my union has spent the last 17 years doing exactly the opposite,for what I pay it for.Well at this unit anyway.:}

[250 kts]

Yes,From their web site over £33K it's £15.30 a month.That's the top rate.Point is what do I get for £183.60 p.a. when my union has spent the last 17 years doing exactly the opposite,for what I pay it for.Well at this unit anyway.

Suggest you just leave NATS and Prospect and let us all head off into the tunnel of doom. Plenty of jobs in the "sandpit" I believe. And a few at Heathrow now as a few more have apparently resigned.

I'm sure NATS will bite your hand off if you volunteer to get out of your shafted unit and join the big boys. I'm sure your local rep will be more than delighted to help you with your transfer request.

[Hootin an a roarin]

This quote has been posted in the payrise debate but I feel it is relevant here.

"Must say that I agree completely with the above statement. It appears to me that those at the top of the food chain be it MP's or corporate heads still get cracking pay rises when those further down have to split whats left between them. Besides, why the hell are MP's so well off??? all they do is represent us (supposedly!), its not as if they do anything useful.."

Sounds like the payrise a Band 5 Atco receives compared to a Band1/2.
Unfortunately I believe that Banding does play a major part in the Pension debate.

Without nailing figures down a same % rise across the Bands could mean in monetary terms a huge rise at the top but a relatively poor one at the bottom. Maybe taking a Band 5 top of scale Atco into a six figure salary but oppositely a Band 1 Atco to just over 60 grand. The money divided around comes out of the same pot so again purely in monetary terms if the guys at the top get a large rise then there is little money left for the rest.

I must stress again that I do not believe we should all receive the same salaries but if this carries on in the next 10 years or so the guys at the top will be close to doubling the salaries of the bottom Band Atcos. Not really fair and also, as is true now, retiring on a pension that is worth more than a current Atco1/2's actual salary for continuing to risk their licence.

All we seek is a fairer playing field and a narrowing of this divisive Banding system.

[Gonzo]

TAD, using the example of ATCOs leaving lower band units to go to the 'sandpit' as an illustration of the inequity of banding is spurious.

I would imagine my own unit has lost the most ATCOs, percentage wise, to the ME than any other NATS unit, in the past year.

[250 kts]

Sorry position is that NSL just can't afford much higher salaries and also keep,what are in many cases, loss making contracts. It's a fact.

I guess the real supply v demand issue is at the major centres whether we like it or not.

retiring on a pension that is worth more than a current Atco1/2's actual salary for continuing to risk their licence.

A band 5 will only retire on more than a Band 1/2 provided that no lump sum is taken-unlikely I would suggest so a totally ingenuous comment.

[throw a dyce]

Gonzo,
If people want to leave for any other unit,then that's great for them.I have worked abroad,and people ask me all the time.I always say go for it,because we will always be amongst the lowest paid in Nats.Doesn't matter how much the traffic increases,or extra work that we are required to do.
Staff must be leaving LL for a reason as well.Maybe they want to dust off their radar rating.It gets a bit boring saying cleared to land all the time.I did it for 3 years,and was eager to get back to radar.:zzz:

[Data Dad]

Gonzo, (at the risk of thread creep) in the last five years or so, what age was the oldest posted-in from elsewhere ATCO to gain ULE's at Heathrow? Supplementary - what percentage of over 45's are successful?

Just asking out of interest :ok:

DD

[ZOOKER]

Gonzo,
A sad indictment of NATS indeed if people are leaving what must surely be a top posting in a "World Leader" in ATC. Is Heathrow not what every UK controller aspires to do?

[Gonzo]

Oldest experienced ATCO to validate with no previous LL Tower experience in the last 5 years?....errr, early 40s (might be younger than that, bit vague on guessing age!:} ).

I don't know of any over 45s to validate without considerable previous LL Tower experience.

[vespasia]

Is Heathrow not what every UK controller aspires to do?

Errr, No!;)

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Really vesp?

One of the ex-LGW boys validated a few month's ago at NATS flagship airport, and another Gatwick Girlie is desperately tunneling her way towards us in the New Year.

I don't see many wanting to go the other way....

[Hootin an a roarin]

From 250 kts "A band 5 will only retire on more than a Band 1/2 provided that no lump sum is taken-unlikely I would suggest so a totally ingenuous comment. "

Actually i've just put a current top of scale Band5 atco's salary through the CAAPS website's benefit projector for my retirement. Comes out with a monthly salary close to my current salary PLUS a lump sum of over a quarter of a million! 250 kts check your facts first.

This will only get worse with a same percentage payrise.

Spunkfarter

You allowed back on Pprune now you've ditched the management bo**ocks?

[heathrow, easy life]

Within the last 6 months an older (56) controller validated at Heathrow but had previous experience before the APC/TWR split. If you ask him though I am sure that he will tell you it was not a "walk in the park".

[vespasia]

I don't see many wanting to go the other way....



Not denying that, but "aspires to" suggests something more than "wants more cash", or am I being old fashioned!:ok: (before return flak, I'm also not suggesting that some folks really do aspire to go to LL for better reasons, I'm just saying that it's not what everyone wants to do.)

[Caesartheboogeyman]

people saying they cant vget out of their unit doesnt really wash.
go to the college (band 5)
do a few years then pick your posting.

[Hootin an a roarin]

"people saying they cant vget out of their unit doesnt really wash.
go to the college (band 5)
do a few years then pick your posting."

That sounds really easy.

However where are we getting the people from to release us to go to the college?

We have been waiting for a guy to come to us from Aberdeen for a good number of years now but his release date has gone back yet again because people are fed up and have left there to go to the sand pit. I'm surprised he still wants to come after being fannyed around so much, he may join us at some point next year but I wouldn't bet on it. And I know there are numerous other examples.

[Lookatthesky]

On a lighter note, how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller? :}

[Traffic is...]

Can of worms....;)

[throw a dyce]

Lookatthesky,
Can of worms indeed.It's the building the counts,not necessarily the job that is done.Good example Luton radar,Band 5 v Aberdeen Radar,Band 2.
Aberdeen is as busy,if not busier.It has more airspace,a much larger variety of traffic,work departures and work in Class G all the time.Now the Band 5 boys will leap up and down saying they have to do another sector.Well we have to do the Tower.Probably one of the more complex I can think of.
I would be interested if someone can explain the logic,because I've been waiting for an answer for 17 years.:hmm:

[vintage ATCO]

how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller?oooh . . . controversial :)

[anotherthing]

Quote:
how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller?


Banding is not just about levels of traffic, it's also about complexity...

Don't you know how difficult it can be keeping abreast of current affairs through reading the Daily Star whilst on console, when a meddlesome aircraft calls you? :}

[Captain Spunkfarter]

Hootin an a roarin

Thanks for checking the CAAPS figures for me; is that one of the non-operational tasks given to you lower banded guys to 'beef-up' the workload in between inbounds?

A lump sum of over £250,000 you say? Great. Anyway, better dash, the fire's about to go out.

http://www.obligation.org/image/money%20burning.jpg

[Hootin an a roarin]

Spunky

No worries mate, the Daily Record crossword was getting pretty tedious.

Being a DINKI (Dual Income No Kids) let me know if you need any more wads to burn, I'm running out of places to store my cash!

[250 kts]

how can a Luton radar controller justify the same salary as a Heathrow radar controller or a TMA controller?

I remember asking my union guy just this question when banding was being proposed.

Apparently at that years' conference a motion was put to the members by the BEC. It was about the possibility of having different bands within the same unit. The members gave a categorical "no" despite all of the potential pit falls being pointed out.

Whatever our thoughts on banding, it is the members who pushed for it in the first place and obviously didn't heed the BEC advice when asked the question.

I think that most of the Thames/ Luton guys are valid on at least 2 positions now, although I stand to be corrected.

[anotherthing]

I think that most of the Thames/ Luton guys are valid on at least 2 positions now, although I stand to be corrected.


Correct - some are valid Thames and Luton.... doesn't compare to say North or South and A.N. Other sector which the majority of the TMA controllers do... but them's the rules

[ZOOKER]

I bet TMA N,S plus A.N. Other ATCOs don't work many VFR Noddyboxes, and are totally unfamiliar with the meteorological phenomenon known as '8 oktas of Cessnas'. Both of these can generate the same workload/complexity as a stream of 'Nigels' in Boeings and on Buses.

[Standard Noise]

But therein lies the problem....8 oktas of Cessnas don't pay the 'rock of ages', so regardless of the fact that we can be doing our one armed paper hanger trick on any given day, it matters not where banding is concerned.

[BOBBLEHAT]

Luton approach on it's own does not constitute minimum unit competency, you must do one of the other approaches or Thames Radar. They are demanding environments and difficult to validate on.

.... and no I don't do any of them.

[NeoDude]

We have been waiting for a guy to come to us from Aberdeen for a good number of years now but his release date has gone back yet again

That doesn't bode well for lil ole me who's got 8 weeks left at the college and desperate for an EDI posting. Oh well, Aberdeen wont be that bad I suppose :(

[ayrprox]

neodude,

worry only about getting your first validation. once you have that its a different ball game. your options become infinitely more attractive:ok:

[Lookatthesky]

I bet TMA N,S plus A.N. Other ATCOs don't work many VFR Noddyboxes, and are totally unfamiliar with the meteorological phenomenon known as '8 oktas of Cessnas'. Both of these can generate the same workload/complexity as a stream of 'Nigels' in Boeings and on Buses

Yep, I bet all those limited FIS's are a real menace!! ;)

[Hootin an a roarin]

Neodude

I believe we have one person earmarked to come from the college around Christmas. That could be you if all goes well. We also have a couple of guys trying to remuster within the company and one possibly to the sandpit. The boss needs to replace them now and also overbear for the impending EFPS training next year as it sounds like the times of goodwill and fudging things (helping management when they run deliberately short) are happily coming to an end!
You may be lucky but we need you in asap to get you trained up.

[NeoDude]

mmm, that sounds promising I suppose. Have to make sure I pass first :ok:

[Data Dad]

Hootin an a Roarin wrote:

The boss needs to replace them now and also overbear for the impending EFPS training next yearAre you sure about the overbearing? The Ice Station is first (of the regional airports) to be going EFPS - we are not going to have any overbearing of staff, indeed with the way things are going at present we will be "underborn" ...... how we are going to be able to release staff for EFPS training I know not.

DD

[Hootin an a roarin]

Data Dad.

He is talking about overbearing by one I think. The training will still be tight however as was proven by the recent primary only sim runs we had to do. Some guys did the sim runs whilst officially the radar 2 controller which should not have happened but again fudged things and helped management out.

We down here have also heard a rumour that your impending EFPS has been delayed which obviously will put us back as well as I think we follow you.

Anyway we are about to enter WP negotiations which would only benefit management as any outcome means working longer hours. So I hope the rest of my colleagues stop bailing out management with good will when we do not get much in return. It is not our problem that the previous Manager ATC signed a WP agreement not advantagious to the Managers, were we work shortish day shifts. If we were LHR we would be offered a large bung so lets stick together and not give in for nothing.

Rant over :ok:

[Gonzo]

If we were LHR we would be offered a large bung so lets stick together and not give in for nothing.

Sadly mistaken, I'm afraid. :}

[Yellow Snow]

Hootin'

how marvelous to see you on these boards again, knew it'd be a banding debate to get you away from JD Wetherpoons;)

To any lowly band 1/2/3/4 ATCOs if you can't get away from your unit because you can't get released but want a bigger challenge with bigger bucks, then the adventure of a lifetime awaits at DXB. Recruiting like crazy now for the new JXB and current DXB airports, everyone earns approx £5200 per month with an extra £3k per month for accommodation, schooling, health and travel home. All tax free.

What you got to lose? The Barron's gonna take your pension anyhow. Get out now, and your pension becomes ringfenced!!!

Tick Tock Tick Tock....

Eid Mubarrak

[Hootin an a roarin]

Yellow Snow

Hope you and the missus are doing well matey. I need to give you a bell.

There are a few around considering making the move and to Abu Dhabi as well.

Have you heard the rumour about Baron doing a deal with Dubai not to take any more LHR controllers?

P.S. Does Skippy still wear his scarf out there?

[Yellow Snow]

Hootin'

Life's magic buddy, really pleased with things. Give us a call.

The rumour about a deal was knocking about before I left.

On arrival here I asked the main boss about it. No such deal exists.

The position here was that they would take no more than the 4 LHR controllers in 2008 (4th starts in November) reason being so as not to completely mess up LHR's numbers and be friendly. 2009 however, is open season. They want as many NATS trained controllers as possible for both airports. Two more start in January, they see it as supply and demand, they'll pay one of the best ATCO's salaries in the world, come and get it if you want it. (Their words not mine)

Scarf not needed here!:)

[Buster the Bear]

Last time I looked at the figures, Luton was handling over 10m pax per year and then add in all the Biz Jets!

In order of passengers per year:

1 Heathrow
2 Gatwick
3 Stansted
4 Manchester
5 Luton

But then again, Luton is a quiet regional airport!

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport_data/200807/Table_01_Size_of_UK_Airports.pdf

[Hootin an a roarin]

It's movements that count. If I move 3 747's but you move 6 737's then you would be busier.

1 Heathrow
2 Gatwick
3 Manchester
4 Stansted
5 Edinburgh
6 Luton

....last time I looked.

[barstewards]

Figures taken from: UK Airport Statistics: 2007 - annual | Data | Economic Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=80&pagetype=88&sglid=3&fld=2007Annual)


1. Heathrow - 481476
2. Gatwick - 266550
3. Manchester - 222703
4. Stansted - 208462
5. Edinburgh - 128172
6. Aberdeen - 121927
7. Luton - 120238
8. Birmingham - 114679
9. Glasgow - 108305
10. East Midlands - 93989

Figures do not include overflights worked by the airport controllers

[radar707]

If you do include the overflights and the GA worked outside CAS then the stats for the likes of EGPF, EGPD, EGBB, EGNX etc are significantly higher, but that's another unquantifiable argument!!!!!:ugh::ugh:

[slink]

but that's another unquantifiable argument
Why? We have strips (you remember, those funny little paper things!) for all the aircraft worked outside CAS, plus anything worked inside CAS doing multiple trips (i.e. the local heli doing city tours etc)., so it should be able to be accounted for. Unfortunately, it appears to have been overlooked in the last count up, as I believe we had precisely 0 overflights...funny seeing as I had at least 4 today during my 1 session in air, and the weather was shi*! :ugh:

[radar707]

Slink, you're right but I was merely quoting the union line when banding was done i.e all the sh!t outside CAS isd "unquantifiable"