FAA operators in the UK? [Archive]

youngskywalker

17th September 2008, 09:27

Also, maybe because EASA is promising to find a way to stop Pilot's with FAA only tickets operating full time in European airspace. They were proposing to force dual FAA and JAA licences for N reg ops.

Before you all say 'they can't do that or else how can American Airlines fly into Heathrow?'...they have thought of that one and are proposing something like a 90 day limit.

It is possible though that the new Isle of Man register may still be okay as they validate JAA and FAA tickets.

Also I managed to find an N reg job in the UK with relatively low hours, except it didnt last! It's down to who you know.

It's jobs for the boys industry.

Vanpilot

17th September 2008, 09:56

HI

I have both FAA and JAA and I really don't like the idea that people are going around with just an FAA ticket, and flying, while the rest of us have jumped through the CAA exam mine field to get our first job in the uk.

Like some pilots and operators (EGNX):oh:

It is also very hard for small AOC ops to compete against the FAA rules which tend to be less limiting. I feel if its based in europe for more than 30days it needs to have a JAA crew on board.

Upslope

17th September 2008, 10:14

Well at the risk of opening a can of worms, at least two of the operators I have spoken to in the past have said that part of the reason they insist on the JAA license as well is that they at least know that the candidate has passed a tough process in obtaining such as opposed to the not so rigorous FAA ticket.
I have both and it does annoy me a little when I see someone who went to the states for a month sitting making up the numbers in an interview waiting room in the UK.
Like I said........Head down awaiting incoming.....

youngskywalker

17th September 2008, 11:29

Well, what can I say?! Thats not even worthy of a reply!

Although the thread starter can see from this what sort of attitudes you will come acrross in the UK!:\

The best of luck to you!

LRdriver III

17th September 2008, 11:37

Lets be honest here.. the JAA ticket is a whole lot of over complicated guff and we should try to average out the requirements so we can have a joint ICAO one. Having excessively deep going theory that you will forget as soon as the written is done is a waste of brain power and does not make you a better pilot. I have both FAA and JAA and have seen weak aviators on both sides. Paperwork and redtape does not equate safety..

To keep this thread on track, be aware that you can fly VP registered aircraft as well with an FAA-based validation. All the usual suspects fly these (small operators as well as the big players) . But like somebody said, usually the insurance co's dictate hour requirements.

Kengineer-130

17th September 2008, 22:59

Not wishing to get into the JAA / FAA battle as it will never go away ( and as someone on another thread said, who are we to question the USA when it was the birthplace of powered flight?...) , I was merely asking what sort of potential employment possibilities I had on a FAA licence in europe, preferably the uk..

I fail to see (no pun intended!) why the FAA are quite happy to issue a class one medical for visual limits with a statement of demonstrated ability, where the JAA staunchly refuse to even consider it :ugh:... We all operate in the same skys, so are the JAA saying an FAA pilot with a medical deviation is LESS safe than a JAA pilot on the limits of the class one JAA eyesight regs? :ugh:

Pace

17th September 2008, 23:16

I have never read such a load of protectionism and arogance in a thread like this.

If you hold those views then forget 90 days! Ban any N reg aircraft with any FAA licenced crew from invading our airspace for one day or one hour as they are all a load of untrained idiots endangering our skies?

Statistically an FAA ATP is as safe as a JAA ATP and the rest is a load of mungo jumbo.

If anything is wrong its the system and its self protectionism and I am holier than thou attitude.

Aviation knows no boundaries an FAA pilot should be as good as a JAA pilot if anyone can point out a statistic showing otherwise then its easy then ban all FAA airliners from European Airspace if not then we should all be accepted and forget this self protectionism and arrogance because thats all its about.

The same goes for aircraft certification and licencing, medical requirements the lot. Its all about huge costs for the boys and jobs for the boys not backed up by any statistics showing safety issues between the two.

And there will be some regulator paid for a job he needs to justify running around trying to ban this or that to fill his unproductive week with something to do other than creating work for himself and loading an industry with extra costs it can ill afford to take.

The only thing that could be morally justified between the two is a requirement for FAA pilots to take Air Law exams to comply with diffrerences in Europe but then even that should be universely compatable.
Pace

youngskywalker

18th September 2008, 09:13

Unfortunatly Kengineer, whenever FAA vs JAA gets mentioned it usually degenerates into a willy waving contest! It's a funny thing really but this arrogant attitude only seems to prevail in the UK, I've never witnessed it anywhere else in Europe or further afield.

I would never dream of coming on here and telling somebody that the licence they worked hard to earn is inferior, what breath taking arrogance. If any of you can prove that the FAA system is unsafe for operating worldwide then let's either see the evidence or finally put this one to bed.

I wonder if Doctors or Lawyers behave the same way, critisising each others qualifications or which university they studied at etc...

To answer the question, yes it is possible to find work in the UK using a professional FAA certificate, not easy but still possible.

It would still be worthwhile you checking the medical standards with the CAA again as I'm pretty sure things are changing for the better.

Good luck.

Pace

18th September 2008, 09:51

>I would never dream of coming on here and telling somebody that the licence they worked hard to earn is inferior, what breath taking arrogance. If any of you can prove that the FAA system is unsafe for operating worldwide then let's either see the evidence or finally put this one to bed.<

YoungSkyWalker

There was a study which I read and the conclusion was that there was NO evidence to show that JAA ATPS had a better safety record than FAA ATPS.
They acknowledged a difference in training but came to the conclusion that although there was a difference in training they both lead to the same standard at the end albeit by different routes.

But then look at whats required to convert an FAA to a JAA The FAA ATP is treated as if he/she knows nothing and has to almost start from ground zero.
You are either safe to be there or your not! the numbers painted on the side of the aircraft are irrelevant! So it can only be about jobs for the boys and pure arrogance.

Van pilot
>It is also very hard for small AOC ops to compete against the FAA rules which tend to be less limiting. I feel if its based in europe for more than 30days it needs to have a JAA crew on board.<

Why 30 days ?are they safe up to 30 days then a danger after? Ban all FAA or non JAA aircraft from European skies if you can show statistics which say your safer with your JAA ATP than the FAA guy. Less limiting to me means less expensive and we have far to many expensive Beaurocrats and rule makers in Europe who need to be paid for. Their big brother state approach and the results of their Beaurocrats and regulators have to be paid for too by an industry bent at the knees.

Pace

Vanpilot

18th September 2008, 10:20

"Pace"

My point is that we need a level field to play on, and 30 days would allow someone who wants to fly from the usa and have a few weeks holiday in a N reg jet to do so. " But not steal work from the rest of us.

As for the FAA v JAA. I've only one point on that......you don't get guy's with 250 hrs flying a large jet in the states.

As for skills........come on its not that hard is it, we just tell everyone that so it makes our job sound more interesting :}

:ok::ok:

Flintstone

18th September 2008, 10:41

*THREAD DRIFT ALERT*

As the holder of several licences (there, that's the willy waving done with) I feel qualified to comment.

My FAA licence was far easier to obtain being based upon a conversion from my (then) UK one so subconsciously, and I know this shouldn't be the case, it feels inferior. I just don't value it as much as my other licences because it didn't cost me as much financially or in any other way to obtain and I've only used it in anger a couple of times. That's my psychobabble theory anyway. Maybe that's the way some operators/pilots feel too?

When I first researched obtaining a licence I was naturally attracted by the cheap(er) training in the US but knew that if I were to be taken seriously by UK operators I would have to convert it anyway so what was the point? Rightly or wrongly 'they' looked down their noses at an FAA ticket. I knew that from the beginning so didn't go that route. Had I done so I could hardly now complain about not being eligible for work on 'G' registered aircraft could I? We could draw parallels with many countries in the world, JAA-land isn't an anomaly. Is it right? Perhaps not but read on MacDuff.

When I was studying for my UK licence I too thought it was a load of over-complicated, there-for-the-sake-of-it bull!!!! but once I'd passed.....ahhh, that was different. It sorts the sheep from the goats, see? Keeps the numbers down and all that.

Which in a purely selfish way is a good thing. We're always moaning about lack of work, imagine how it would be if your average school drop-out could get a licence? Oh, hang on, I did :O But, if the JAA standards were lowered we'd ALL be whinging and bitching because the work would be spread even more thinly. It's bad enough with the likes of Michael O'Leary cheapening our profession (and some of our own colleagues doing the same by paying to fly or whatever) so surely anything that edges toward retaining a degree of exclusivity is a good thing?

In summary, do I really believe the FAA licence to be inferior? No. Am I glad it's seen that way? Yes, it makes me more employable and justifies in my little head the fortune I spent on my career. If you'd asked me this question seventeen years ago when I was getting started though my response might have been different.

Regards

Flinty (in a selfish and contentious mood today)

Edited to quote As for the FAA v JAA. I've only one point on that......you don't get guy's with 250 hrs flying a large jet in the states.

Australia and New Zealand neither (probably other countries too but I'm confining myself to places of which I have first hand knowledge here) so why is this? It's well documented that a licence is easier/cheaper to obtain in those countries which means there are more pilots ergo the airlines can be more demanding and people have to work their way up through the piston-turboprop-jet route.

This would suggest that you can have either the FAA system whereby you compete for scraps with hordes of others as you claw your way up or the JAA system where numbers are kept low BUT there's always the chance of a Boeingbus upon qualification.

Which do we want?

Upslope

18th September 2008, 11:05

Flinty in my opinion has hit the nail squarely on the head.
My original point, and I do apologize if it was taken in the wrong context, was that what's the point in spending all that money and learning all that largely useless information, if you could just go to the US and get a FAA ticket for the price of a good holiday come back to the UK and fly here??
Its not a level playing field and it never will be until there is a standard ICAO ATPL. Until then.................I'm afraid there will always be an us and them.
Its not in my opinion about who makes the better pilot. The aeroplane has no idea who's flying it and I have also seen terrible pilots on both sides of the fence.
Pace I'm sorry but you are taking the high ground on a completely different issue and for the wrong reasons, at least with me.

cldrvr

18th September 2008, 11:19

Luckily the EU allows N-reg aircraft to be operated here and luckily the FAA makes it very easy to convert our JAA license. This means that there are more aircraft in Europe and since you have to be an EU citizen to work in the EU it means more employment for us. If one would make it harder to fly a N-reg in the EU, a lot of them, could even be the majority of them, will not be replaced by EU registered aircraft. Having a N-reg is cheaper for the owner and allows more of them to own their own aircraft. For some there are significant tax advantages in owning an N-reg.

The current situation is good for employment, good for the owners, good for the economy.

Just to be clear I am against offering free cabottage to N-reg or for that matter all
non EU reg.

And to get back on topic, yes there are loads of N-reg, M-reg and VP-reg aircraft in the EU. All of them operated privately, some as a one man band some by management companies.

Pace

18th September 2008, 11:35

>Pace I'm sorry but you are taking the high ground on a completely different issue and for the wrong reasons, at least with me.<

I am not taking the high ground but defending a principal which should be that we are all on one standard whatever that may be.

I recently ferried a business jet from Florida to South Africa Via Canada iceland Uk and then on down through Africa, in total 35 jets hours for the trip.
I flew across many areas starting in FAA airspace then crossing JAA airspace and then into the weird airspace of Africa.

I am considered legal and safe to do this and that is backed up by statistics.
Because aviation as described above knows no boundaries as we flip from one continent to another we should have one set of standards across the board from aircraft licencing to pilot licencing to medicals.

Anything else is a nonsense and stinks of nothing more than protectionism and arrogance of various parts of the world.

It probably will not change because of the fact that it is all based on a nonsense and an expensive one at that. I personally hate hypocrosy in anyrhing and aviation is full of it.

At most there should be differences courses to change one ATP to another not treating one ATP like a basic PPL.

But things will probably not change even though they should for purely political reasons and as stated protectionism.

So it should not be a case of you can fly through our airspace for 30 days that is a nonsense which is NOT based on safety issues which should be the driving force on any legislation or licencing requiremnts.

In my eyes we do tend to forget a large portion of what we learn in ground studies. Any licence is a licence to start learning and that learning comes through practical experience which probably levels out both ATPs JAA and FAA in the fullness of time in the safety stats which show NO difference.

Pace

1Bingo

18th September 2008, 14:27

It appears to me that CAA is full of jobs worth, bureaucacy, and excessive fees. I would like to see ICAO standards that fit somewhere between the JAA/FAA rift discussed above, and all participants adhere.

1 Bingo

mad2fly

17th August 2009, 20:50

This is an interesting thread. I am a US citizen flying an N reg and recently an M reg aircraft. I only have an FAA ATP. My wife is an EU citizen so I have the right to work as a family member of a European Economic Area citizen.

The company I fly for is in Europe but not the EU. I do fly throughout the EU but the plane's home is outside the EU. The company gave me study material on aspects of air law that were different to Europe and tested me on the material.

I fly with pilots that have both JAA and FAA tickets and I think they are just as competent as the FAA ATP's I've flown with. I believe they feel the same about me (I always have been a little naive though).

As for Americans coming over here to take jobs, I hear way more pilots with European accents on the radio in N reg airplanes in the US than I hear Americans in airplanes of any registration over here. This excludes American airlines.

Time wise, perhaps pilots who went to the US to train and have not yet received there JAA ticket are lower time but an established American pilot I think is quite often higher time than a pilot who just got his FAA ticket as a stepping stone to a JAA ticket.

I've run flight departments in the US and the insurance requirements there were much higher than they are here. I came over to fly the same type I was flying in the US. If I'd gone to the insurance company with the times required over here, I'd have been laughed at.

I guess my main reason for coming out of my usual lurking mode was because I didn't know the attitude towards FAA ATP's was so negative with so many.

I have found nothing but politeness and mutual respect everywhere I've been in the last year and a half. I do get a few people using words like howdy and speaking with a southern drawl but that's just comical since I'm from Washington State.

Empty Cruise

17th August 2009, 21:39

Nothing to do with dissing one license over another - both the FAA & JAA tickets are proven pieces of paper. One is slightly harder to obtain than the other, but the end result is the same.

A problem would only arise if commercial charters were allowed on the N-reg aircraft. That's not the case - so should not be an issue. However, we all know that where people operate an aircraft, there is the temptation to make a bit of money on the side, flying first friends, then friends of friends, then remote acuantencies of said friend's friends... This puts commercial operators under a lot of pressure - mostly in the "small" end of the market. This again makes these operators trying to undercut echother, turn every dime and maybe - just maybe - put crews under pressure to do something that isn't quite by the book. Have seen trips sold as 1 leg when they clearly needed 2, mass, balance an performance not as much being forged as conveniently overlooked etc etc...

...and that, mes amis, is the real probem created by some N-reg operators :ouch: Ain't got a thing to do with license - it's the work being carried out that counts.

helldog

17th August 2009, 22:15

I have done Australian, South African and JAA exams in the UK. I can tell you that the Aussie exams are by far the hardest. Flight planning is a killer. There are no easy gift questions like the JAA, your doing x speed how long to go x miles? Easy crap. I reckon you could take a person of the street with no interest in aviation, make them read the Bristol database and they could pass all the exams in a week or two. Ok they would have to get lucky but its possibe. When I did my exams I would say I had seen about 70% of the questions word for word before and just about all of the other 30% in a similar form. The comms exams were a joke, I think between the two exams I spent about 7 minutes in the exam room, how can that be a test of your knowledge? Lets not kid ourselves here......JAA exams are not hard at all.

Flintstone

17th August 2009, 22:33

They must have changed the Aussie format then because my ATPL subjects were done after a two week course (good old Nathan Higgins, he still going?) and we pretty much knew the questions in advance. CASA ATPL the hardest? Not in my experience.

The easiest by far was the FAA. One day in front of a computer screen followed by the 'exam', bit of a joke really.

The conversion of my Aussie ATPL to a UK CAA one was fourteen written exams and two flight tests. It was also the most expensive of course and although we'd had feedback the question database was ever changing. They let me off morse code :rolleyes:

NuName

18th August 2009, 03:47

Ahh, off it goes again, I've got a better licence than you. You are stealing my job. Ban anything that I can't do. Why is it that all this seems to come from peeps that can still remember all the questions in their exam's? Fact, as already mentioned, no matter what the reg you still have to have residency or permission to work in Europe. Fact, non European reg aircraft based in Europe equate to more aircraft which equates to more jobs. And the best fact of all, if you have a JAA ATPL, insted of bitching and moaning, you could go and get the "inexpensive, worthless, on the back of a cornflake packet, I could do it with my eye's gouged out" FAA ATPL and take the job that might have been "stolen" by someone else. If it generates that much emotion this would be the easy answer.;)

411A

18th August 2009, 04:35

When I joined SaudiArabian many years ago to fly the L1011, the requirement was to have (or have applied, IE the written test completed) the US ATPL prior to being accepted for employment.
I noticed, almost without exception, that when Captains went for their FAA type check in the L1011 (and indeed other types as well) the failures were mostly those with European licenses.
Why?
Number one, they could not pass the very detailed oral examination with an FAA Inspector, prior to going on to simulator training, number two, they could not pass simulator training, or...number three, they did not pass their type check, with an FAA Inspector, in the airplane.
The reason, in my opinion?
European/UK pilot licensing authorities place a lot of value on detailed theory (much of it completely useless in todays operational theatre) and much less value in actually being able to fly the airplane, accurately and precisely, to FAA exacting standards.

Look down your nose at the FAA ATPL all you want, however I have noticed this time and again, during training on a new type.
And yes, I have been an instructor on big iron for a very long time.

With the FAA, can't fly the airplane to exacting standards...no license.
Period.

733driver

18th August 2009, 05:10

Oh 411A, do you really believe that? Ever done a type rating at Flight Safety?

I have. more than one. Some in Europe, some in the US. All we ever heard from the instructors in the States was "great job", even if we knew we could have done better at times.

My combined oral exam for my US ATP and a FAR25 type rating took about 30 minutes.

The written was a joke (both for the ATP and the T/R) and the check ride was the same as here in Europe with the addition of a circle to land.

The FSI instructors in Europe seemed a liitle tougher to be honest, but still not to the same standard as in the airline I worked for before going G/A.

I can't judge in-house airline training in te US and it may well be to a higher standars than what I have seen at FSI. There however, the "client" very rarely fails a check ride. In fact, I don't know of anyone who did. Now, does that mean the FAA's "exacting standards", aren't that hard to achieve or maybe not always checked for consistently?

Anyway, the truth is, both in the US and the EU there are pilots who get through the training and checking system without demonstrating FAA/JAR licencing standards on every check-ride. We have all seen it, haven't we?

Both are good licences and do the trick. The EU ATPL could use a little less theory and the FAA ATP a bit "more" (not in terms of numbers of questions in the bank, but check for a true understanding rather than checking that the applicant can recognize the correct answer because he/she has seen it an hour ago....)

But what really makes us good pilots (hopefully) is the experience we gain over the years-

411A

18th August 2009, 05:47

Ever done a type rating at Flight Safety?

Just one question, 733Driver....does Flight Safety use FAA Inspectors, or designated examiners, paid by FSI?
All of my FAA type ratings were issued by FAA Inspectors, without exception.
There is a difference versus designated (in house) examiners, make no mistake.

And yes, I have extensive experience in both exec flying (corporate international aviation department manager) and airline flying....all overseas.
But what really makes us good pilots (hopefully) is the experience we gain over the years-
On this, we can absolutely agree.

Triple Nickel 8 Ball

18th August 2009, 11:27

I saw this thread and felt compelled to read through it....the subject is ALWAYS causing a great divide!!! Wow....how this subject gets peoples backs up is startling really isnt it??

I wonder, for example how many EU pilots look down their noses at the FAA jockeys, who have never sat the illustrious 14 writtens? Or how many managed to get their hours in quick enough to be given the Brit Commercial, who before it was phased out, had only the Basic Commercial??

Ask yourself, who is better, the BA 747 jockey who has been trained the JAA way, or the Cathay 747 jockey who may well have his licence off the back of his FAA, or CASA ticket?? I would argue [and so would my ex BA and now, ex Cathay until retirement 747 training Captain friend who has flown with people with almost every type of licence] that there is nothing to choose between them. Some things may be done differently, but they are equally as professional and competent.

The effect of ¨banning¨ Foreign Reg aircraft in Europe would be felt very deeply. Jeez, how many maintenance and handling companies to name but 2 industries, would go belly up if all these registrations were banned? To agree with a point I read earlier, do people really believe that all these aircraft owners would just lie down, take it up the proverbial and put their aircraft onto a JAA reg?? Yeah....course they all would....NOT!

Eventually, the EASA jobsworths will, surely, have to come to realise that they will have to recognise the FAA licences. Do people believe that there is a safety concern as EASA would have us believe, without a shred of evidence, or believe that this is a money generating exercise....just think of the cash EASA COULD get if all the foreign registrations had to re-register?? Regulating the FAA registered aircraft based in the EU for example, is a different matter, especially for the FAA and best left for a different thread altogether.

As I write this, I thought I would look out of the window onto the apron of the airfield I am sat at in France to see what is registered where. I can clearly read the registrations of about 10 private/hired Jets. 1 is on the G registration, 1 the LX, 4 on the N reg, 3 on the A6 reg and 1 on the P4. So, lets ban the Foreign Reg here right now and we have just lost 80 per cent of the business generated, not even including the fact that the foreign stuff is ALL bigger than the EASA stuff.

Anyway....I digress. Let us agree though, that recognising FAA peeps that have been flying in Europe for years, or making their honest living whilst flying Foreign Reg in Europe for hundreds, or thousands of hours, is the best way forward. Let us issue them with a JAA licence based on their current FAA one if Foreign Reg ¨has¨ to be banned, so that we dont prematurely ground some top notch, incredibly talented pilots if they measure up to the flying standard. The important thing here is FLIGHT safety. I would rather share the sky with an FAA pilot with thousands of hours, than with a 200 hour newbie fresh out of Oxford. It is experience, skill, real World understanding and common sense that matters, not classroom ability.....I for one only hope that jobsworths the World over see that before it is too late!

:mad:......did I really just write all that???? Ooops! :O

Yes, you did. Enjoy your thread ban.

Duck

Flintstone

18th August 2009, 19:23

NuName.

Who's bitching? A few people expressing their opinions on the difficulty of obtaining their licences. Sorry if you only have the one and can't join in ;)

733driver. Spot on with the FSI (US) comments, tick in the box every time and of course a great job. I'd comment further on 411A's posts but I can't see him these days, he's on my ignore list. I'm guessing though that it'll be along the lines of FAA licenced pilots are the best in the world, the L1011 makes him moist and is the best aircraft ever built etc etc.

Was I close? :E

PicMas

18th August 2009, 20:11

I have both, while the JAR-FCL is heavy on the theoretical side, the FAA equivalent is still a fine edumacation

FalconPilotSpain

18th August 2009, 22:58

So.........On another tangent....anyone know of jobs in Europe on N-Registered aircraft?

Living in Spain and already applied with TAG as someone previously had said. Have been trying to cross-reference LAAS foreign registered aircraft with the FAA registry, and use airlines.net to grab the photo in anticipation that someon knows the company name.. :ugh: Doing that for more then 10 minutes will drive you mad!

So would anyone happen to know of something available?

ATP
5,800 TT
4,500 Jet
Falcon 20, Citation 650

Please PM me :)

THANKS EVERYONE!

NuName

19th August 2009, 03:50

Dont be so quick to assume that my post was directed at you, it was not. I am not in the situation where I only have one licence, I happen to like private op's much more that AOC and get a little bored with the constant derisory comments aimed at N reg ops, especialy when the comments come from folks who obviously fancy a particular job, dont have the licence and instead of doing something about the licence bad mouth those that are doing it. Now that is not you is it.

B200Drvr

19th August 2009, 07:51

Luckily the EU allows N-reg aircraft to be operated here and luckily the FAA makes it very easy to convert our JAA license. This means that there are more aircraft in Europe and since you have to be an EU citizen to work in the EU it means more employment for us. If one would make it harder to fly a N-reg in the EU, a lot of them, could even be the majority of them, will not be replaced by EU registered aircraft. Having a N-reg is cheaper for the owner and allows more of them to own their own aircraft. For some there are significant tax advantages in owning an N-reg.

Finally a good answer, so if all you elitist JAR boys want to chew that over for a bit:rolleyes:
Letting an EU citizen fly an N reg aeroplane based in the EU on an FAA ticket is not taking your jobs away Chances are, if the EU/ JAR bring in some lame restrictions, the owners will then just change to VP or M reg. then what are you going to complain about?
Clearly the owners do not want to register their aeroplanes G or F or whatever for a reason (financial, maybe)
Come on people, wake up and smell the coffee.

G-SPOTs Lost

19th August 2009, 09:20

My 0.02p's worth.....

Done three types at FSI all in America, all combined JAA & FAA rides as I have both ATP's.

I would like to add that its the FAA rides that concern me, none of this "lets see that again please" on the JAA. Cock up your checkride on the FAA and you will feel the motion coming off and the beep of the gantry fairly quick followed by pink slips and coffee.

Not one of the Orals was less than an hour, some were 2 hours long. And I did know my stuff. My ATP additional oral included the filed ICAO differences by the USA on runway markings!

I have never known the aircraft systems better than that day, I can hoinestly say the extra effort deployed to sail through that oral has served me well operationally on numerous occasions. Would I honestly know my aircraft as well now if I hadn't done the FAA?........No.

The exams are irrelevant, the only beneficial hoop that JAA has over the FAA is that the initial IR has to be done with an authoritative examiner in the UK in the US thats not the case. Going forward the training and checking on the FAA is very thorough especially on 135, none of these 25minute pad it out to an hour OPC's that small AOC operators over here get away with especially when times are hard.

Lets have a little respect for our fellow aviators - not for which piece of paper he's carrying around in his flight bag.....but for where he/she has been in what type and for how long he/shes been doing it!