Are We All Providing Same Standard Of ATC Worldwide ???

[ATCO94]

ARE WE ALL PROVIDING SAME STANDARD OF ATC WORLDWIDE ?

Well I was thinking this as ICAO strives to maintain same ATC standard worldwide & I think more or less it is same everywhere.

Then why is it that the ATCOS cannot get a job into any other country freely & it is surprising me that some countries do not recognise the qualifications & experience of few others. There are many examples.

If some countries do not take anybody else than their own by birth citizens then it is understandable (due to security or other reasons) but taking somebody from outside their country & not taking the other due to his not being born in that region is quite baffling for me to understand.

Let the ATCOS express their viewpoints.

This discussion is obviously for the experienced ATCOS.

[ZOOKER]

ATCO94,
Apparently not.
I recently attended a presentation on 'aerodrome standards' and was appalled by some of the things I saw. I dread to think what the ATC service provided from some of the featured airfields is like.

[criss]

Each individual controller is working differently, so its difficult to reach standarization inside one unit, let alone whole ICAO world.

[Tarq57]

I believe this (http://www.dilbert.com/strips/comic/2008-09-03/) is the way we are currently achieving standardization.
Works a treat.:E

[choclit runway]

Are We All Providing Same Standard Of ATC Worldwide ???

No.

[OneIn60rule]

No.

ATC standard is NOT the same everywhere. Even in the UK it's not 100% same as place A to place B.

1/60

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Then why is it that the ATCOS cannot get a job into any other country freely & it is surprising me that some countries do not recognise the qualifications & experience of few others. There are many examples.
The Best jobs for our best sons and daughters.:ok:
[QUOTE][If some countries do not take anybody else than their own by birth citizens then it is understandable (due to security or other reasons)/QUOTE]
Simply I do not understand that kind of security problems.
Could you or someone else explain me what is the secret in next instruction:
Air force 1 is clear to destination (LAX) via SID 1 A,FL 110,Squawk 4321.:ugh:
I believed that only communistic countries had believed that it was possible to hide HEAVY a/c,airport or similar "sensitive" infrastructure objects. Twenty years later it seems that communism was transition between Imperialism and Big Brother era.

Some ANSPs will even close sectors/airports/declare TIBA or anything else rather than to give reasonable offer to foreigners. WHY? Ask them not me,please.
Where are the biggest differences from standard ICAO docs?
USA,UK,Russia,... Bigger country bigger protection...
finally,are we all equal?
Yes,but some are more equal....

[aluminium persuader]

Absolutelydefinitelywithoutfearofcontradiction

NO!

[vector4fun]

Can't speak for other countries, but in the U.S., knowing what, when, and to where large groups of military aircraft are headed is a security issue. The controllers in my unit, (for example) figured out we were invading Panama the day before it happened. I've also worked some very sensitive law enforcement operations as well.

Personally, it would be very interesting to work with some folks with different backrounds, I just don't see it happening.

[SINGAPURCANAC]

[QUOTE][knowing what, when, and to where large groups of military aircraft are headed is a security issue./QUOTE]

Do you really believe that "enemy" is waiting to hear combat formation on frequency?
on frequency it will be:
PIC:Good morning(attacks usually happens early morning) ACC, TOMCAT 01 speaking. We are large attack formation followed with 2nd fighter squadron. Overhead VOR,heading 345,maintaining 6000' , next reporting point is OBJECT,
ATCO: TOMCAT 01, Good morning,ACC radar, Set squawk 3421
PIC: TOMCAT 01 squawk 4321
ATCO: TOMCAT 01 negative,squawk 3421
PIC: TOMCAT01 squawk 3421 coming down
ATCO: Identified, turn left heading 320 ,vectoring for separation
PIC: TOMCAT 01 turning left heading 320, could you give us QNH
ATCO: TOMCAT 01,QNH is 1013
PIC: TOMCAT 01 QNH is 1013
ATCO: Correct,now clear of traffic,radar vectoring for separation is terminated,position 10 Nm north east of VOR ,own navigation direct to OBJECT!

Solid air force background plus 10+ years of experience as civil ATCOs at different places ,different countries, during difficult times lead me to one conclusion:
There is no REAL connections between National security and bloody TWR job at some airport! :=

[undervaluedATC]

No.

and I would like to repeat that TIBA is not native for "welcome to Australia" :{

[Use the Force]

Paranoid Yanks,

Why don't you stop invading countries, then there might not be a security issue. :E:E:E

How can an ATCO that has passed security checks in a country that happens to support your country in the wars it faces, still not have the right to work in the USA?

I hear housing is cheap.:}

[ATCO94]

Standardization :
It is what an average controller can adhere to or provide services almost always.<Though I also believe that some are definitely better & few excellent ones & particularly He/She(may be Me or myself) is always the best controller( that is the saddest part of ATC profession).>

as singapurcanac says about security isuues :
when the airlines of one country can fly in another country or the flight/ground crews can move about freely between diverse national carriers without any problem(security or otherwise) then I belive it is not the issue.But it is quite possible that it is may be my "issues"?

Though traffic density at different places might be different but as most of us will agree ATCOs are the most flexible at their work & can really adapt to a new situation quickly & efficiently.

[Dupre]

Lusaka International is definately not the same standard as Auckland International. :eek:

[SINGAPURCANAC]

Certanly not,
But I saw in Africa ,not(SA) ,2.5 or 3 Nm separation .
At the same time we have been informed that major airports in very developed country declare TIBA in approach.
So my question is who is really providing reliable service.
Some has been doing it for ages,others just making good marketing. And they declares yourselves as World best practice.
Short story:
A few years ago I was watching movie about Juventus(famous Italian football club).
there were stated that Juve has never been placed below 6th place at the end of season. I was pretty surprised with that statistical data and shared info with my friend.
His comment was : Have you ever seen that referee was against Juve?
His sentece was excellent forecast. Next year Juve was moved to serie C,due to some illegal combinations with referees.

I think that list of eligible or recognized units and countries will change very soon.

[pare]

I come from the Philippines and I can't tell you much about our standards over there except that it has been recently downgraded by ICAO to Category 2. When I moved to the ME I really have to prove to everybody that I am as capable as them eventhough I come from the Philippines. After 3 years in the ME, I now work in NZ where the standard is really high and my english is not that good but somehow I am surviving.
I guess, if you really wanna work abroad, its not about standards, security or citizenship...go and prove yourself. Forget the US, there are many other opportunities out there.

pare

[radar information]

Tarq57 - That is fantastic, extremely funny.

[QWERTY9]

Vector, time for Team America 2 me thinks :E:E

Team America F:mad:K Yea !

[SINGAPURCANAC]

@pare,
Agree,

Why don't you stop invading countries

If they do this than they will close 90% of their companies. One more downturn will be too much. :E
Lusaka International is definately not the same standard

having in mind next story personally I will be satisfied with any level of service if they provide:
Shortly afterwards Zambia gained independence they realized that they need ATC. They signed big contract with ex-YU where among many other issues was written that YU CAA would help them to make a ATC system. YU CAA asked a lot of money to do this. Than president of Zambia called HM TITO(president of ex-YU) and explained him that they needed ATC but they didn't have money for such expert consultancy. TITO said OK. Than he called Army chief and told him: Zambia needs ATC. Solve it. Than he called one single guy, and transfered order.
That guy took seven (7) "field" radio stations,very old, probably some written/off examples from military warehouse,packed them into Cargo and flew to Zambia.
Once he arrived there he said: My country promised and I brought to you whole ATC system. For free. It is our help to young country.
So if Zambia's ATC system has anything else after those seven radio stations you may consider that their improvement was FAST and SIGNIFICANT! :D

[The Wraith]

No, Dupre, you are right, it isn't. Lusaka ATC is better!!!:E:E:E:E

[vector4fun]

Do you really believe that "enemy" is waiting to hear combat formation on frequency?


Not at all. That's certainly not the only way to gather useful information either.


ATCO: TOMCAT 01, Good morning,ACC radar, Set squawk 3421
PIC: TOMCAT 01 squawk 4321
ATCO: TOMCAT 01 negative,squawk 3421
PIC: TOMCAT01 squawk 3421 coming down
ATCO: Identified, turn left heading 320 ,vectoring for separation
PIC: TOMCAT 01 turning left heading 320, could you give us QNH
ATCO: TOMCAT 01,QNH is 1013
PIC: TOMCAT 01 QNH is 1013
ATCO: Correct,now clear of traffic,radar vectoring for separation is terminated,position 10 Nm north east of VOR ,own navigation direct to OBJECT!

10 years of foreign habits and phraseology to un-learn. (Sigh) You would be a project.

Solid air force background plus 10+ years of experience as civil ATCOs at different places ,different countries, during difficult times

(yawn) You'd be pretty low on the senority list at my facility. MY EOD date is 1979.

Paranoid Yanks,

Why don't you stop invading countries, then there might not be a security issue.

How can an ATCO that has passed security checks in a country that happens to support your country in the wars it faces, still not have the right to work in the USA?


Well, I didn't intend to debate the neocons' fantasy of installing a peaceful Starbucks franchise in hundreds of foreign villages. But you might consider that those same neocons are presently in charge of deciding who's a security risk, and who's not.

In any event, disregarding our obvious difference of professional opinion about security, it seems a moot point. Anyone with that much distaste for the U.S. Govt would obviously never be a good fit as an employee of same. And it wouldn't take a Major Burns to figure that out.

"Cheers".

[Use the Force]

Mr Vector,

Maybe the wrong day to discuss this however what does a belief in a government have to do with controlling airplanes? Governments come and go, policies change, but at the end of the day we do the same job. I could not care a less where a military aircraft is going, he has a job to do and that is that.
I don't know how much you know out side quite an insular country but terrorism is not new and most of us have lived with it all our lives. If we let it control us, then they will win.

God bless, we will remember September 11th.

[vector4fun]

Force,

I understand your point, and while I have only had the pleasure of visiting Europe once for two weeks, and Mexico once or twice too often, your point is well taken. All I'm trying to point out is that most U.S. Controllers are Federal Government employees, and some of us work quite closely with our military units over here. In fact, the U.S. military seems to slowly be getting out of the ATC business, and turning it over to civilian DOD and FAA controllers. As such, the Federal Govt is, for better or worse, very picky about who they hire, or even let visit our facilities nowadays. Paranoid is probably not too strong of a word. I just don't see that changing soon in our present political environment, that's all.

As I said in my original post, Personally, it would be very interesting to work with some folks with different backrounds.

Thanks for your sentiments. :ok:

[missy]

ATCO94 asked Are We All Providing Same Standard Of ATC Worldwide ???

Well, I volunteer to travel the world to investigate this although it may take a while. Just need someone to fund this investigation... ICAO, IATA, Boeing, Airbus, NASA, UN, any takers!!

[Dee Mac]

I'm rather happy that Terry Taleban from Terrorstan can't get a job on the adjacent sector. Long may it remain that way.

[5miles]

Anyone with that much distaste for the U.S. Govt would obviously never be a good fit as an employee of same.

So no avid Democrat voters or conscientious objectors currently employed by the U.S. govt.

[veloo maniam]

Hi all..can someone clarify how did HJ came about? Is it a code derived from a foreign language?thnxs for replies

[Moira]

@ veloo maniam

Like various other aviation words/abbreviations: French!

HJ : horaire de jour
HN : horaire de nuit

[veloo maniam]

Hello Moira..many thnxs.:ok:

[grizzled]

Though the comments and subterranean political issues are interesting, I would find it interesting if this thread could creep back to discussing the original question – though I do wish I could’ve joined Verc in his short recess from the Sand Box.

So, in terms of providing the same standard worldwide, my comment is, “Not even close.” Of course there are observable differences twixt each controller, and sometimes what appear to be significant differences in standards between otherwise similar ATC units, even in countries or jurisdictions with “mature” aviation systems, philosophies and infrastructure.

Having said that, the pressing issue in terms of worldwide ATC is levels of safety in certain geographic areas. The situation is entirely comparable to that of aircrew and air operator safety levels in those same areas. I.E. In those parts of the world where the resources and the culture (meaning corporate and regulatory cultures) are weak or non-existent, the situation is dire. In fact in those places where the problems associated with luck of funds, corruption, training, equipment, etc exist, they are usually worse in terms of ATC than flight ops. Why? ATC expertise in the regulatory realm is less available; ATC audits and auditors are far fewer; and ATC is most often a lesser priority than air carriers and pilots, regardless of resources.

As someone who has been involved in ATC on four continents I can tell you the levels of ATC provided at each end of the scale are as far apart as Venice Beach and Jeddah.

Grizz