Norwegain

[OriginalNick]

Does anyone know if they are hiring F/Os at the moment? If they are, do they still require you to provide a 73 rating at own cost? I have tried to get a hold of them several times lately but it seems hard to get to the right person.

Regards

Nick:ok:

[Guttn]

Don`t know, but I`m pretty sure that if they decided they can no longer have the 737 rating as a requirement for employment, then you`ll probably hear it here first. :ok:

Thought all their info was through their website...? If they`re hiring, then there should be an ad there for F/Os and the current requirements.

[OriginalNick]

Knowing the industry, the info on the websites are often out of date. Just wondering if anyone in the company or someone who has attended interiews recently knew anything.

Regards

Nick

[highdownwind]

I believe a few courses are planned for in the fall sometime. Right now there are a lot of F/O's in respect to the number of aircraft currently in the fleet. Of course the amount of aircraft will increase substantially from now and until 2014.
Anyway, word is, a few courses after the summer, a few next year and a bunch in 2010.

[OriginalNick]

Thanks:ok:

Do you know if new F/Os have to sponsor their own TR?

Regards

Nick

[Crossunder]

"Have to"? No. But yes.
There is a § in the OM with a table showing pay scales and bonding times for new-hires without type rating. However - you´ll just end up losing money in the long run, since those starting salaries are rather low. The plans, and the documentation for a TRTO are in place. I do not know whether the training dept. have closed all findings and/or concerns after the first inspection by NCAA in january. These things usually takes quite some time. With the expansion and all, the training dept. have more than enough problems to sink their teeth into, so I suspect arranging type rating courses will not be prioritized...

1) You need to check the box "I will pay for my own t/r" on the app.form.
2) You need to have someone - preferrably several - inside DY recommend you to the Company.

...then maybe you´ll get called in for an interview. On very short notice.

Hope this fogged things up a bit more! ;)

[Kingsnake]

Norwegian will go bankrupt at the end of this year.

Read their quarterly report for first quarter 2008.

The negative result is 5 times greater than last year. Norwegian has an accumulated result of minus 350 million nkr since 2004. They are not making money nor is there any reason to believe they ever will. They certainly will not in 2008 - that year is busted already.

You read it here first :ok:

brgds Kingsnake

[empati]

If you grab the Kingsnake by the tail, he might not be able to bite.:}

NORWEGIAN:uhoh:

1. Larger and more costly operation, than before.
2. Restarting flights to LYR! Mistake! Costly!
3. Starting BDU against public interest. Mistake! Costly!
4. SAS starting Leisure in direct competition with NAS. BIG problem for NAS! Costly!
5. Fuel price! NAS paying full price! Very costly for a low cost company.
6. World economy indirectly affecting peoples pockets. People travel less on vacation, while NAS is getting more seats to fill. Costly!
7. The difference in ticket price between the legacy airlines and the low cost airlines smaller. Costly.
8. NAS raising the ticket price, less pax. Costly!
9. Few pilots willing to pay for T/R.
10. SAS might hire next year. Loss of pilots. Costly!
11. Diff. training from classic to NG. Costly!

The list goes on.....

Maybe not bankruptcy, but a changed NAS perhaps!?

Empati, (Black Mamba:p)

[Crossunder]

Well, the "net loss" so far also includes the purchasing of new aircraft and establishing a new base at Rygge. This net loss was forcast by analysts, more or less on the mark. It´s not exactly as if SAS have made any money either, and 350MNOK in the red (as Kingsnake claims) really isn´t all that much...
SAS have already decided to add a fuel surcharge, and DY is bound to follow. This will offset the increasing fuel costs. IF SAS decides to hire new pilots next year, they will have to take back the x-hundred they fired a while back - very few of which work for DY today. And why the hell would anyone want to leave DY to work for SAS, with the new crap pay scales and all? Also - look at the overhead costs for the two companies. Guess which one is the cheaper?
My guess (because that´s all we can do) is that DY will continue to expand as planned, reach the peak with 40-something new 738s, then cut back some, and eventually stabilise somewhere between today´s operation and planned "peak". There will always be room for the two companies in Norway. SAS will fire even more people now, and if they don´t get swallowed by LH or anither large carrier - they´re also likely to vanish within a couple of years if they don´t start making money.
Bottom line; I agree with empati: A changed NAS, but alive.

[Dovregubben]

f you grab the Kingsnake by the tail, he might not be able to bite.:ugh:

NORWEGIAN:cool:

1. Larger and more efficient operation, huge increase on numbers of aircrafts over numbers in administration.
2. Restarting flights to LYR! Very good pax numbers on top of good cargo revenue.
3. Starting BDU after winning contract with The Armed Forces.
4. SAS starting Leisure in direct competition with NAS. No problem for NAS, SAS has a cost factor double what NAS has!!
5. Fuel price! NAS paying full price! As Ryanair does.
6. World economy indirectly affecting peoples pockets. Passenger choose NAS when they want cheap flights.
7. The difference in ticket price between the legacy airlines and the low cost airlines smaller. Brings SAS to an end, either by bankruptcy or takeover by large group like Lufthansa.
8. SAS raising the ticket price, less pax. NAS sitting on the fence with same ticket price and welcoming paxnumbers skyrocketing.
9. 1306 pilots willing to pay for T/R. (from the updated application list)
10. SAS laying off pilots as scheduled in their downsizing plan.
11. Diff. training from classic to NG, taking place on sceduled PC/OPC basis at almost no extra cost.
12. Fixed price on new NG's down by NOK 800 mio. due low USD currency.

The list goes on.....:D

NAS strengthening their position, SAS dramatic weakened.

:sad:Empati, (Black Mamba:p)???????????????:sad:

[BestGlide]

Det eneste som er sikkert, er at det er veldig bra at ingen av dere er økonomer, men kun synsere :) Uten økonomisk dybdekunnskap om noen av selskapene, så blir dette en meningsløs diskusjon. DY kan overleve eller gå konkurs. SAS kan overleve eller gå konkurs. Og mest sannsynlig så ender begge selskapene opp et sted mellom overlevelse og konkurs. :8

[Guttn]

Just wondering a bit... There was a press release earlier this winter, from Kjos himself, that there would be a big announcement in April of this year. Anyone heard what it was? That they`re losing a lot of money perhaps? Rumor had it that there were plans for a longhaul expension with 777 or 787 orders... But that`s all trough the grapevine:ugh:

But sadly, the company doesn`t inform its pax about changes in carry-on allowances, new, higher fees and fees for baggage transfer between flights:=. And how are the CCs doing? Still working the BS "training" contracts they were given, or have things worked out and there are no more subsidaries from the county office?

Hope they do well though, since any other competition in Norway would probably wreak havoc on the market. At the same time, I wouldn`t sleep well if I were at the bottom of the seniority list there. Glad I`m not:}:zzz:

[Scarebusa345]

At the bottom and sleeping like a baby.

If the ship goes down: Emirates, Etihad, Quatar, Jet Airways, Singapore, and the list goes on. As long as it doesn't have Well connected with SAS written on it....

[empati]

Dovregubben! Excellent defensive answer's!:ok:


However, I think you got them from VG! :}


Bestglide is right! This is pure speculations! :8


Empati

[Hanguren]

Scaryabuse: So you have been accepted by all off them...? Not bad! :ok:

Their conditions suck (and unions are illegal, so they wont improve), but good luck in the arabians anyway...! :cool:

[empati]

I think you would be surprised about how many would leave NAS for SAS!:ooh:

Even to fly a brand new CRJ 900, on RJ payscale.

SAS provides an excellent package, far better than Norwegian. Most FP at SAS today makes more than most FC at NAS. Better pension, roster, insurance, travel benefits, etc.

Some of the 300, hopefully, will be back!:ok: But those will be a drop in the water, compared to the need. Besides, many of them are doing too good were they are! They won't accept starting at the bottom again.:ugh:

SAS Norge is on the ball! Which airline has the best ontime performance in Europe right now?:E

Wait and see.. Rome wasn't built in a day! THIS SAS is improving, every day!;)

[Anonymus6]

I wouldn't be surprise to see SAS hiring in the next economic up cycle, which is predicted to be 2009-2010 by many economists. But how knows!!!!

[TheFatMan]

Empati quote:

"SAS provides an excellent package, far better than Norwegian. Most FP at SAS today makes more than most FC at NAS. Better pension, roster, insurance, travel benefits, etc." unquote.

That is a very unvalid comparison, because how many CMD do SAS have who have been in the company just 2-4 years? Come to think of it, how many CMDs have been in SAS only 5-6 years? None! What do you need for your upgrade in SAS, 15+ years?

So you have to look at pay after 2-5 years not regarding seat but just pay, and those in NAS who upgraded early (lets say 3 years) quite surely make more money than they would have after 3 years in SAS, because they sure wouldn´t have upgraded in SAS. And we can´t compare salaries as well, because there are no pilots in SAS with only 3 years service, they were all laid off.

I´m happy that you enjoy SAS terms, but life over here isn´t that bad. Roster? not better at SAS from what I´ve been told, no fixed roster? Many at NAS joined because of the fixed 5453. Maybe some will leave, but if they do NAS will surely up their terms to keep them.

Happy firm landings, TFM

[Dovregubben]

Easy mathematics: Compare T/C's on entire career and you will find NAS on the top of SAS. And why is that? Because your starting salary is far better in NAS of course.

And when it comes to ex. SAS pilots leaving NAS for SAS, don't think so. Who will leave a Commander job in NAS for a FO job i SAS with the perspective of several years in the R/H seat again.

:cool:

[Dovregubben]

And when it comes to hiring: No courses planned for the fall whatsoever. Large overcapacity on FO's. Shortage on captains, some contract captains hired for the summer. Shortage of experienced FO's for possible upgrade.

[empati]

Naahh!!:= Your logic makes no sense! Soon NAS will have the pilots it need for the aircraft ordered. The 60+ will leave, and the avg age will come down. I did not say that I expect new NAS CP's to go to SAS. But new FP's. Eventually the upgradetime at NAS will increase to normal, and the picture for new FP's will be different. And how do you estimate upgradetime to 15, when avg pilot age now is 50. In 10, over half of the pilot group is retired.:ugh:

By the way, have you all seen our new payscales!! And we have a roster bidding system at SAS! Several options on roster, incl fixed. Several types of vacation, too. Very lucrative sell of days off - you make Gesillions! :E(Unforunately in my opinion.):(

NAS is a very good employer, I'm sure, but as in Braathens SAFE, there will be a leak on the bottom, going to SAS.

Empati (not recruiting!):O

[TheFatMan]

First - is it the rest of the world who is wrong calling pilots CPTs and FOs and SAS doing it the correct way by calling them CPs anf FPs? Or vice versa.. :)What is FP short for?

No. I haven´t seen SAS new payscales because SAS pilots are generally very keen on not spilling the beans. But please go ahead and either post them here, with every yearly increment up to end salary, or update www.ppjn.com. NAS salaries have been discussed here before but we are in the process of negotiating at the moment, we might get a big rise as well...:ok:

With regards to 15+ years for upgrade at SAS I was refering to what is the norm right now. Is it not true that FOs (FPs) at SAS have served 14-16 years and still are far away from upgrading? Who knows what the future will bring? If I knew I would have made a furtune from lotto and gambling...

Of course it will most likely change at NAS from having DEC to become 5-8 years in the future, but that is most likely still some years away. We do have a lot of 58-64 years old pilots retiring within the next years.

I also find this discussion a bit funny. I am very pro SAS pilots being paid properly, in fact I hope you get an even better raise next year. Because if SAS is getting payrises, we are bound to get them at NAS as well. Demand and supply.

[Dovregubben]

Lot's of pilots 58-64, don't think so: 17 is the number including the the ones that leave now. . . .

[TheFatMan]

Don´t know where you are looking at, but from the seniority list that I have we have 23 pilots who are aged 58-64. Maybe not as many as I suspected but considering that 20 of them are CPTs that is 20 upgrades only replacing them and not considering the expansion which will require a lot more upgrading. We also have a lot of pilots born in the 1950ies.
Not everyone will stay onboard until reaching 65... but ofcourse as I said before I can´t read the future!

[empati]

FC - captain/commander
FP - flight officer:confused:

I have been beaten with a stick until I gave up CPT and FO, and admitting to SAS inventing the wheel! SORRY!:ouch:

Payraise! Another point to my list of increased cost for NAS.:p

Empati

[Dovregubben]

The 23 pilots are including non-active CPT's and Captains that already has left. . . . . .

[Guttn]

This is a very funny discussion:}. You simply cannot compare the two airlines since they stand on totally different hills regarding T&Cs. Mr. Empati says something about total package and benefits being better than NAS`. So true. All the benefits that come along with the employment are, as far as I understand, not existing at NAS. On the other hand, Mr Fatman argues that NAS pays better from year 1 and time to upgrade is significantly shorter than at SAS. This is also true. So it`s really all up to what you prefer:ok:.

But Fatman, I sincerely hope you guys get a nice raise, as it keeps Norway`s level on the higher end:ok:. It benefits all pilots when the grass seems to be greener on the other side, even though when you sum it all up it`s pretty much the same.

[TheFatMan]

@ Dovregubben - maybe you know a lot more than me but the way I look at it there are quite a few pilots who will retire the coming years. Especially considering the impact it will have since one leaving will need 2 upgrading with expansion.

@ Empati - thanks for sorting out the FP / CP thing!

I´m curious about the roster issue though. How many days off/on per year do a SAS pilot have? We are just being told it is better than NAS, but not being told in which way it is better. Know you got a very good Loss of Lic. insurance.

@ Guttn, thanks, let´s hope we at least get the % you WF got.

TFM

[empati]

I don't know at the moment. New contract, new numbers. In general we work 5 on, 4 off. We have fixed, flex and variable, each with it's adv/disadvantages. 4 week vacation. On top of this we have some extra days off, to complex to cover here. I think aprox 300 pilots are working reduced LOA.

BU pay used to be 10% below SK, except the last few years before the merger/takeover. This should be the goal of NAS pilot union too. The regional commuter pay is different from the main line pay at SAS. Well known, and common around the world. However, NAS fly the same size equipment as SAS main line, and pay should be compatible.

Empati

[witchiepoo]

...Sterling watches from the Gardemoen sidelines, while SAS and DY battle it out...safe in the knowledge that the Danish base can cover the losses sustained in the outstations....gotta give it to those Danes.

[Crossunder]

Huh? Sterling cover the losses with what? I thought they're still up the famous creek without a paddle...

[Guttn]

At the same time Streling has to ask the Icelandics for more cash to keep the ship from sinking up said creek? Yup, gotta give it to those Danes:confused:

[witchiepoo]

Yep.... Icelandic cash flow and market share in Denmark....gotta have a plan B during these hard economic times...what is the plan B for Norwegian after those spectacular (predicted) losses and no cash injection in sight. Kastrup bases perhaps...(ahhh no all those spots are taken)...Aarlan...no wait..Billund...theres gold in them thar hills boys...Rest easy kids, with the best business mind in Norway behind you its sure to be plain sailing from now on....so grab your life jackets and brush up on your wet ditching skills.....

[empati]

And your point is?? You are refering to?? :confused:

[Guttn]

SPeaking of unions... How is the NAS pilot union doing these days? How are the negotiations coming along and such?

[Crossunder]

Icelandic cash flow? Are you kidding me? What cash flow? That little island hasn't got that many keen investors willing to throw money at a sinking ship, and I cannot see any more injections coming Sterlings way... I suppose someone up there will have to step up their illegal fishing in Norwegian waters to fund the injections then :E