Retirement at 55, 65, 75....

[cxlinedriver]

" Retirement Age

I am receiving a number of enquiries about talks with the AOA on Retirement Age – understandably there are individuals who need to make plans based on the outcome of the talks.

Unfortunately I can only say that talks are ongoing – it is inappropriate to release details of the various proposals and counter-proposals as they happen.

I can confirm, however, that the Company is not "going through any motions." I am very keen to introduce age 65 into the contract of all crews as I believe that it is, inherently, the right thing to do -for both the Company and individual crew alike. You should all be able to plan your own careers and choose when you wish to stop working. It should not be left to chance based on the phase of the economic cycle when you turn 55 or the discretion of the management team of the day. I’ll let you know as soon as we reach agreement. "

The above is from CX management.


From a non-A Scale Capt (me)...

We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this.

Anyone who works past 55 is STEALING four promotions (off the street to SO, SO to JFO, JFO to FO & FO to Capt). You STEAL their extra income, you STEAL their professional development, you STEAL their chance to retire before they are too old for a life. SO DON'T DO IT!

F**K OFF as you agreed to when you joined.

A-Scalers have a long history of selling out all others for their own interests. If you are C&T past 55, F**K OFF. The CX line that you are needed to train for the expansion is crap - others can easily take your place. New blood would also bring C&T into the modern world.

The ONLY fair way of getting retirement at 65 is to sign new joiners to this.

[ACMS]

Very subjective thing this retirement age question.

Lets start a poll on who wants to retire at 55.

[Mr. Bloggs]

NR said I will have x amount of dollars in my PF when I retire and I would make z% per year. Not even close, Tosser.:mad:

As most will vote to suit themselves and not the greater good of the group.:*

NR and some others (closes to 55 group) will want 65 implemented immediately but a more sensible way to do it is phase it in over a 10-15 year period.:ok:

I am sure the AOA will look out for our better interests, they have done so in the past.:}:D

Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?:confused:

I would retire tomorrow if I had the money, but NR is making sure that is later rather than sooner.:mad:

[iceman50]

Funny how people like you "cxlinedriver" etc think pilots on extension are "stealing" other peoples jobs - what bollards. As well as We have all planned on a career progression and retirement at 55. This has been known to all as a fact of life at CX since we signed on the bottom line. We all have had to plan for this. - well the contract that most people signed is not the contract they now enjoy - so some would like to work longer, especially as their "plans" were messed up by the company and it is the only way they will recoup their losses. As for your other comments - must be great sitting next to you "oh wonderful captain":D, you sound even worse than the "A scale" captains you are deriding. :ugh:

[ACMS]

he may be cool as ice but he's hit the nail on the head.:ok:

[Cpt. Underpants]

I am an "A" scaler. Like NC and others, I joined in the early 90's on a payscale that is unrecognizable to what I have today.

I have haven't had a pay rise since 1994.

I have had my pay CUT significantly, without my consent, several times, in one form or another since my DOJ. The stock that we were given in partial compensation has underperformed from day one.

My career progression has been NOTHING like what I was assured. I had to endure years when we had almost no advancement (10 or 15 commands a YEAR), ASL, 9/11 and SARS.

Am I where I thought I would be when I joined? NO, not even close.

If I am offered a career in CX beyond 55, I'm taking it.

YES to 65 (I won't stay that long, my body wouldn't take it) but that's another issue.

[ACMS]

I just crapped in your underpants you Goose

Now tell me about those Share options you got at $7.47

yeah, we remember that little bonus from NR.


NC has already established a long time back that if you'd left it in the market it would have almost OFFSET the WHOLE pay cut.

SO DON'T COME CRYING POOR TO MOMMA OK

A scale is still pretty damn better than B.

Sorry to say, but HE STARTED IT, NOT ME.:D

[ACMS]

"yes I took out that money a long time ago" I hear you wine

Well maybe you should have left it alone, to grow like your PF. Shares will generally grow over time, especially 10 years. Anyone that took them out was a silly fool and only have themselves to blame for being greedy early on.

NEXT..........

What was the CX share price yesterday?

A LOT MORE THAN $7.47 that's for damn sure.

OUCH

[raven11]

Cxlinedriver
I am getting a little tired of the cheap shots people like you take against A scale pilots. You can’t keep blaming them for all your shortcomings. There are only about 200 or so A scale pilots left. The vast majority of the pilot group today are B scale! How have you and your mates been on selling out?

It’s a little rich having to be lectured about abiding by my contract by a loud mouth like you (what were the words you used.. "F**k Off"?). I take it you eagerly agreed to the B scale contract when you joined, and that you’ve never complained about any aspect of your contract. In fact, you have been very happy with all its provisions. Is that correct? Hypocrite!
I’d even venture to guess that the vast majority of pilots today nearing age 55 are B Scale! Have you thought of that?

You’re telling me that I should quit after 20 years to make room for a new S/O joining the Company? Why don’t you follow your own logic then and quit, that way a new S/O can join, another S/O can be promoted…and so on. Or is it, as I suspect, that you’re all mouth and don’t have the courage of your own convictions!

ACMS. Do you really think that the few share options we got in return for a 29% pay cut offset the paycut? Are you kidding me!!! We had our pay cut in 1999. Nine years ago. Do the math (9 x 29%.....). I refer you to my second paragraph above.

We are all in this together. Try to remember that.

[Humber10]

well I have to agree with CXLINEDRIVER....
we all signed on knowing age 55 was the end of the contract. honestly you cant cry that you dont have enough money once you reach 55yrs here with CX regardless of the position.:ugh:

I laugh at you lot:}, always talking about your all the expensive crap you have and yet we have people (the same people) moaning that they dont have enough money and needing to work till they die.:}

Come on guys, we all joined for career progression, none of us signed on to work over 55yrs, so let the guys at the bottom have some progression, bugger off at 55. Sure that progression varies due to 101 factors, but dont let an increase of retirement age increase time to upgrade. If you dont, make sure bypass pay conditions are not touched, if you do you will really screw over the guys on the bottom over.

I cant understand why this is a group that always seems to have continually given away its conditions.....:ugh:

[ACMS]

Let me get this clearer for you.

WE SHOULD ALL BE ON A SCALE. ok

I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.

WE are ALL in this TOGETHER.

So enough of the A scale B scale dick measuring contest.

( I'm very guilty of it, I know. )

[NewEssO]

i was talking to someone about why we have so many differen scale. Is this the case with other airlines?

Is it CX's intention to create and not merge all these different scales so that people do not unite?

put everyone on A, or B, hell just pick somehting!!

[AnAmusedReader]

Can there be an emergency EGM to mandate the AOA stop all negotiations until a new GC is formed?


Be patient just a bit longer. It shouldn't be too long before the notice for AGM and nominations for President and GC is sent out.

Then I am sure that Mr Bloggs will be the first to submit his nomination to do his bit to help his fellow pilots - NOT!!

[boxjockey]

NewEsso,

I hope that you are being sarcastic, but maybe it is a little ignorance. Of course management loves to maintain multiple scales. It accomplishes their jobs for them. Just listen to us on this board!! Everyone sniping each other. If we are going to maintain and improve our conditions, this is the best time for us to do it. The company wants something desperately, and that gives us some leverage. Once this is gone, we really don't have much else to work with. If there aren't significant pay raises to go along with it, then it shouldn't change. They can continue to extend people and hire DEFO, and we will continue to receive bypass pay. End of story. And to your other question, no, most airlines don't have all of these ridiculous scales. Everyone on A scale, the end.

box

[Apple Tree Yard]

This is truly the most reduntant issue for discussion. The reality is simply this: if you're a Captain, you are comfortable with age 65; if you're an FO, you are against age 65 (that is until YOU are made captain, then of course you will default to the first clause). The argument is pointless, as we all see it from the position that best benefits each of us individually. As for a B scale FO telling me that I am 'stealing' from someone because I want to work to a 'normal' industry retirement age...well, refer to your own expletive....:ok:

[Cider30]

ACMS:

I don't begrudge A scale for 1 millisecond. What I do tire of is A scalers complaning about their paycuts and conditions.

Agree 100%. B scale happened on A scalers watch. Other airlines around the world are doing similar things; starting salaries being an absolute joke unless you are financially well off and in it for the fun !!!! (Don't think too many of them anymore)

Unified payscale happened on my watch. I together with the rest of the pilot group let that happen, and I promise I will not complain when I don't get a raise while "C" scalers are fighting for them to get to B scale.

We should never have let different pay scales happen, but I won't go there, just say that if you let somebody in below you on lower pay/worse COS you are shooting youself in the foot. If you can't see it is going to come back and haunt you, well then I don't think you derserve that payraise anyway.

Given the choice between keeping my salary and having newhires join on lower payscale vs. having one joint payscale in between, ie. I take a paycut and the newguy gets the same (annual adjustments aside) I take the latter. It would unite the pilot group, make us stronger (yeah I'll keep dreaming) and all this bit c hing about A scalers, B scalers etc would not take place.... And I would poke the wife instead of spending time at the PC....well maybe not...

Going for a refill at the bar,

Cider30

[Westcoastcapt]

Without sounding repetitious, I'm getting tired of the anti A scale rant. It clearly shows the lack of common sense and sophistication of some.

If I recall it correctly, those who joined in 93 said that they were willing to do my job for less money. Plain and simple. The result is that I have fallen way behind in pay. So, if I want to blame someone, the B scalers are the obvious choice. Yet, I don't as I probably would have done the same thing.

As time has marched on, others have come and said they would do the same job for even lesser pay. Now we have COSAP 08 a severe degradation of the contract. Using the elementary logic of some on this forum, what did the B scale crowd do to stop those accepting this even lesser scale.

Should someone decide to stay past 55, that is their choice, and their choice alone.

So children, the next time you rant against some particular group look at yourself and ask how you have contributed to the present predicament. Or better yet, what you haven't done to stop it.

Nighty night

[Numero Crunchero]

It seems the "my gripe is bigger than yours" game continues.

A scalers
I can understand the A scale angst of not having received a payrise since 1996 - I can understand the apparent disparity of B scales getting payrises for much of their existence. But I think A scalers need to understand the size and scale of the disparity. As many point out, its not how much you earn that counts, its how much you have after costs of living are taken out. So if we assume B scales barely cover the cost of living then the fact that an A scaler on the same career path would earn about $6-10million more
than a B scaler must surely tweak some empathy for the B scaler plight?

B scalers
Most of us 'ole timers' joined an airline that seemed to specialize in largesse - 3 months profit share, almost 20% payrises, 3 years to command. Suddenly it was taken over by a corporate culture more akin to walmart. No more profit share, time to command slipped out to 10 years. Since that time we have suffered degradations to CoS, 3 year paycuts and ever diminishing levels of benefits - nibbled to death by a thousand ducks I think Nigel called it. Whilst our financial aspirations have had rather drastic reductions we have watched B scalers get 'improved' salary for many years.


So who has more right to feel aggrieved?


RA55/65 is a contentious issue. Whilst it may seem to be an A scale vs B scale issue, it isn't. Its a senior vs junior employee issue - or captain vs FO/SO issue. More than half our captains are B or C scalers. The issue is about the added degradation to career progression that RA65 would entail for those with less than 4 stripes.

Whether RA65 is legislatively required is arguable - it is definitely corporately desired. But CX wants to degrade the conditions of those that get extended and reduce or remove any bypass pay for those affected. We should ensure that those that work past 55 are extended with no degradation to CoS and that those whose commands are delayed are fairly compensated. I have already outlined how that can be done - its not rocket science!

CX is the 'bad guy' behind this - not A scales for joining early and having suffered degradation in career earnings and feeling aggrieved - not B scales for joining on lower salaries and then getting 'ancy' when an even greater blowout to time to command occurs. Blame the cause of the malaise - our corporate mismanagement cancer - not the symptoms!

Whatever 'deal' is offered - weigh it up in terms of the effects on you individually and to the pilot body in general.

CX - its just a job!

[ACMS]

welcome back WC.

Nice to see you here again.

I LOVE ALL A SCALERS AND THEIR COS, WE SHOULD BE WITH YOU.

NC, correct as usual:ok:

[Kitsune]

What everyone seems to forget, or indeed not know, is that B scales were not invented by A scalers. CX was going to B scales full stop. Pilots had already been shown the new scales as part of the first interview process and all were eager to accept them. What we did was accept a fait accompli for some benefits for ourselves, in return for endorsing the CX position. Once again, if you can be bothered to look back through the AOA files it's all there......

B scalers have no grounds to whine about A scalers or changing of conditions such as age 65, THEY started the rot by accepting lower pay scales and conditions, thus undercutting the ground the AOA of the time was standing on, and indeed sowing the seeds of the AOA weakness we see today... :=:=:=

[propje]

Capt Underpants, you have been with CX from the early 90's and still haven't achieved (financially..)what you were hoping for. This is over a time span of almost 20 years, now I have to ask you a question, do you think by staying beyond 55 (maybe till 60 or even 65 if your body can take it) you will achieve what you are hoping for...........?

[missingblade]

IT IS SIMPLE.

Age 65 is fine as long as I get my BYPASS PAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So all of you stop bickering about details an unite to make sure the above happens.:ugh:

[Old Fella]

Unless things have changed dramatically, everyone joining CX knows that normal retirement age is 55. Obviously, when the company requires it, extensions are offered. Given that most will have a considerable time to plan for their retirement, to then expect to extend is likely driven by poor financial planning or sheer greed.

[MACH.88]

Missing Blade...SPOT ON!!

MACH.88

[Ex Douglas Driver]

I'd be happy with RA65, so long as the provisions for bypass pay are clarified and improved. We are all in agreement that time to upgrade will be extended, so therefore our career earnings will be reduced the longer we are delayed - even if in receipt of the COS99 bypass pay. I support Numero's incremental bypass pay proposal:
Bypass pay to equivalent delayed rank and promotion to bypassed rank. That means that your second year of command bypass should be to CN2, third year to SCN1 etc and then your eventual promotion should be to appropriate rank eg SCN2. Only in this way will there be no financial penalty to CoS99 employees for CX wanting to increase RA.

I'm a bit perplexed that there hasn't been any proactive polling of the AOA membership on what we think is an acceptable amendment(s) to "our" contracts. ? In the absence of AOA seeking information, I'd suggest we get off our collective backsides and ensure the GC knows what we want.

[Stratojet]

Divide and conquer......nicely done Cx. :ugh:

[Humber10]

Our AOA is going to be renegotiating our bypass wtih CX, but CX want a reduction of the current terms, unfortunately not an improvement. So I would suggest the same as Ex Douglas Driver, write and make sure you let the AOA know exactly what you want in regards to you bypass or whatever. Otherwise you may be looking at a reduction in your terms. :ugh:

[ACMS]

retread: coudn't have said it better myself, well said that Man.


If your 55, A scale and cannot retire then holy smoke what have you done??

Also remember these same heroes volunteered to work past 55 for absolute crap pay with NO benefits, now that want it ALL and want it NOW....

No payrise since '94 Newsflash: you don't need one.

mmmmmmm

[ACMS]

Oh and by the way:

Captain Undies made this a B scale A scale thing back in reply #6

NOT US.

Greedy bugger:D

[Patches O'Houlihan]

as a new joiner on cos08, i probably stand to earn the least compaired to all the whiners (for lack of a better word) on this thread.
yet, i can't seem to wipe the ear-to-ear smile from my face after finally getting the job i have worked towards for the last 4 years:). if you tried hard enough, i'm sure some of you might remember it...

in other industries, salaries are confidential - you have no idea what the person next to you is earning, nor have you any right to know. you are there to do a job, and paid accordingly.
yet we as pilots think we have a right to moan about how much a person with year's more seniority is earning...

when a-scale was dropped, i still had to stand on my toes to reach the urinal. it has no bearing on my life whatsoever. as for cos99 or -07 or whatever it is; again, it was not offered to me. i am quite happy to accept cos08, and i'm sure you all were to sign the various offers made to you.

as for the wait: so you get bypassed for a few months/years due to ra-65. yet you now have a career that can last 10 years longer! more than enough time to recoup any losses. surely you can't expect to given full bypass pay AND stay till 65? yet that might still happen. mmm! that cake tastes great!
company expansion (almost 10% growth per year!) should also offest the upgrade delay caused by the new retirement age.

but we will all fight for a raise in our individual capacity? b-scale wants a pay-rise, but would begrudge a-scale the same? no logic there. surely an increase accross the board will benefit everyone, be it a-scale, b-scale, or cleaning lady??

ow! my head hurts.
patches

[ACMS]

checked Retread7:ok:

[Patches O'Houlihan]

i've got it. we could start a club to do all the negotiating for us, like a union or something...

its a gift; like i can't control it...:ok:

[Cpt. Underpants]

...and NR slowly leans back and smiles cynically as he reads the latest thread on PPRuNe

I can't believe that I share the sky with some of you halfwits.

[MACH.88]

Patches you have a few things to learn.:*

MACH.88

[ACMS]

Really Capt Undies..........get a life outside your undies will ya.

Share a sky with you halfwits............


Is that the best you can do with all the money NR paid you?

Go join Southwest and learn how to GET ALONG.

You're the dope that said "f you lot, I'm A scale, and proud of it and I'm staying after 55, so there"
What do you expect us all to say???

I have a lot of A scale friends and you just take the cake, my North American friend. Atleast they don't RUB IT IN OUR NOSES like you.

[Frogman1484]

What a sad state of affairs this thread has become. The fact of the matter is that once we get RA65 we should all be on A scales, but will most probable all be on B scales.

We all knew what contract we were getting when we joined, the B scaleres knew that we were going to get paid less than A scalers which is something lots of A scale guys keep on reminding us.
Then again all of the A scalers knew that you had a better Pfund, Pay , and a travel fund to compensate you for a shorter career (most Ascale guys joined in their mid to late 30's). All of this was given knowingly that your career was going to stop at 55...you knew what you were signing for right!

The one thing that really makes me want to throw up is when I hear on how the Ascale salary has not been adjusted since 1994, but currently is still 20-25 % more than a Bscale Captain.

You then hear on how some guys are upset about having to pay tax on their travel allowance when most of the Bscalers do not even get one! Lets throw in that the fact that the currency protection on the Ascale Pfund is now at 10-15 or20% when the Bscalers have 0%, or when a Ascale captain tells his crew that he is going to extend because he does not think that his Aud 3.5mil pfund is not going to be enough....uhgh!!!

Come on guys , please do not try to play the I'm so hard done by card, because you have had a very good run so far...and yes we will all be going to 65 so be humble about it.

[ACMS]

yeas Frogman that's what RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY TOO.

1...2...3... lets all spend 1 min of silence for those POOR A Scalers that cannot afford to retire without taking just a pinch more.

or to quote the Classic DCP: "put something back into Aviation" funny stuff

good on ya mateeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[ACMS]

Now people listen closely:

Like I said back a few posts ago: lets not continue with this A scale B scale B.S. Lets all work TOGETHER for a better future after 55 for ALL.

(or something along those lines)

All for one and one for ALL:ok:

So the in-fighting STOPS right here and right NOW.

UNITED front

[raven11]

ACMS,

Yeah, you said that a few lines ago, then proceeded to slag and fire away!!

Man o man....don't you get tired? How many kicks at the can does it take for you to try and make your point? Do you think shouting louder and more often helps? My gosh, you've made 678 posts (I think 78 on this one alone).

BTW, don't cry for me or my mates, bud...we're marketable.

You and your girlfriends remind me of someone happy to buy a house next to an airport, then whine about the noise depressing the property value.

It's beginning to depress me to think that maybe I'd rather not fly with some of the immature posters on this thread.

[Loopdeloop]

so you get bypassed for a few months/years due to ra-65.

Patches, being bypassed for a few years is a bigger issue than you think. Had you joined a few months before you did and had the ability to operate a calculator then your view would be quite different.

As it stands now, a new joiner in December 07 could reasonable expect to be on command bypass pay for about 6-7 years. Should there be a recession in the airline industry sometime over the next 17 years then that time could easily be extended to let's say 10 years. The simple maths exercise goes like this and I'm using Pounds Sterling with all sums being rounded to the closest big number:

Difference between SFO yr 6 and Capt yr 1 = £20,000
6 years bypass pay 20,000 x 6 = £120,000
10 years bypass pay 20,000 x 10 = £200,000

Obviously these figures are approximate and you also have to bear in mind that bypass pay doesn't even come close to ameliorating the true lifetime earnings reduction that a delayed command results in (see separate post by NC).
This is just the basic pay element but when you introduce the availability of bases into the mix then the effects of the extensions are even more severe. Now......do you see why people are concerned?

[Numero Crunchero]

Patches, first, I hope we fly together as having seen morale at the lowest point in over 15 years here I would love to sit next to someone like you who is happy to be here.

The current growth rate is not 10% - with all the aircraft orders that have been announced over the last couple of years the projected growth rate is below what it has been for the last 6 years. That means the following figures are optimistic.

If you get no bypass pay you will have to work for another 3 years to break even on what you would have earned at 55 with RA55. So have a think about that. When you are 55 you have 3 years less Gross earnings. Sure, now you can work another 3 years to catch up to where you should have been....and that means 3 years less of that pesky retirement thing. You are effectively working for free for three years!

As loopdeloop alludes to, any slowdown, of even 1-2% of growth rate, will increase the number of years you work just to break even on what the rest of us should have at 55. If the percentage growth rate slows to the levels it was from the mid 90s until early 2000s then you will end up working into your 60s to have career earnings as much as your 3 month senior colleagues earned up to 55.

So yes you get the opportunity to work to 65 - and earn as much over your career as the B scalers do by 55. Still, if you are like the zoologist, flying a shiny new jet will more than make up for any monetary loss - but just don't expect the 85% bonus that he gets!


ACMS/Cpt underpants et al,
More than half the captains are B and C scale - its a senior vs junior issue. I may be a bit different but I see my rights here no differently than I did 15 years ago. Yes I have more stripes but that doesn't make me any smarter or better looking (beer does though!) or more righteous or more deserving of corporate latitude . I can still remember many of my A scale colleagues in the early 90s complaining about the 'long sleeve shirters with cufflinks' complaining about how expensive ferraris had become - whats changed....we, their incumbents, wear short sleeve shirts and complain about how our salaries were cut but we still earn 20+% more than our FOs will when they upgrade!

Everyone, company included, thought B scales would have caught up with A scales by now. I still remember our current GMA (and the zoologist) talking about never having a B scale CN - but that was in 2001. So as I keep reiterating, its not my fault there are B scales nor is is B scales fault that A scales haven't had a payrise - its our employer who has created this quagmire of different CoS!

CX - its just a job!

[ACMS]

Read the thread Raven old boy.

I never started the A B thing. But I sure as hell wont let it pass by.

And I don't care if you never fly with me, your loss young fella.:ugh:

1/ I'd never buy next to an airport

and 2/ if i did I'd have a camera and scanner switched on 24/7 waiting for heroes like you to bob into view.

[Apple Tree Yard]

STOP THE ARGUING CHILDREN!

as I said earlier, there are two groups:

1) those who are already Captains and are quite happy to see age 65.
2) FO's who don't want to see age 65 (until they are Captains, then clause 1 is just fine).

Because of the reality of the above, none of us has an argument worth debating. The real hypocrisy is the FO's, who know that the minute they are made Captain they will be happy with age 65.

[Karrupted]

Maybe I've got this all wrong, but isn't deciding whether someone can do a job based on race, gender, or AGE - discriminatory? If everyone could, for one minute, consider the issue from other than a purely pecuniary one, shouldn't we all support any action that seeks to reduce discrimination?

Let's face it - everyone is checked on a regular basis for competency and fitness to work as a pilot; why should age have anything to do with it? And just because it is 'written in my contract' doesn't justify it.

And the ridiculous thing is that if anyone returned to their domicile (ie almost anywhere except China) they would wholeheartedly endorse the anti-discrimination policies of their homeland.

I am probably dreaming, but I would like the AOA to rise above the petty politicking and endless A vs B crap and actually take a principled stand on this. Age discrimination is wrong and any efforts by CX or the government to reduce or eliminate it should be fully endorsed as a step in the right direction.

Anything less is selfish and backward.

[Captain TOGA]

Capt U,

If you had a problem with age 55, then how come you didn't bring it up with CX during your interview? Also, I highly doubt you were affected by SARS, 9-11, etc.

[Cpt. Underpants]

I didn't have a problem with 55. I DO have a problem with my my T&C being chopped up by each successive DFO. I DO have a problem being short of the goals I set when I joined (through no fault of my own).

We're in the same boat, like it or not - I would like to see the 55 issue resolved to our mutual satisfaction, irrespective of contract. If you're thinking clearly, I'm sure you think it's a disgrace that the company is choosing to ignore bypass pay. But at the same time - if we're talking reparations - how about what they did to us?

I'm not in the same boat as MFL and others with 10, 15 or more years as an A scale captain. Ironically, I would like to see them leave as well, as they really did have the best years in this company - a lot of them...But, what's good for the goose etc.

While on the subject of wish lists, heres' mine (in no order):

A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC.

Actually, any four would do.

[Captain TOGA]

Captain Undies,

Great Post:D

[Pinayfokker]

Boys, boys, boys. Stop fighting each other and go after the enemy. "A" scale, "B" scale, "Z" scale!! Who cares. These conditions were "agreed to" by self inerest and greedy wannabes. You aint going to change anything by attacking each other. I suggest you all use this forum because you are all frustrated and spineless, too scared to bob your head up. Get smart, UNITE, stick together and go after the enemy. GO ON STRIKE if necessary. Make the enemy take notice. Attacking each other anonamously here like brat kids will only see you all suffer further in future. The ball is in your court.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Capt Underpants......what are you smoking...?:} Hope you don't daydream like this when flying...

[Liam Gallagher]

While on the subject of wish lists, heres' mine (in no order):

A single payscale.
Variable retirement age, 60 max.
Line bid schedules.
Bypass pay.
A pilot as a DFO.
100% AOA membership.
A representative and more aggressive MEC

How about these four;

Single payscale...C Scale for all
No retirement age.. work till you drop (on C scale you'll have to!)
Bypass Pay; but only when accessed suitable for FO or Capt
My mate Phil as DFO...

There ya go.... a happy Capt Underpants:ok:

[Liam Gallagher]

You raise a well rehearsed, but nonetheless flawed argument.... perhaps it is you, however, who needs to take a minute to consider...

This is not discriminatory... no one is saying that 55 year old are not capable. Ideed our contract allows for flying beyond 55. This is a contractual matter.

There are plently of people around the world who are employed on term contracts. These term are normally set as a fixed period of days, months, years. Others have their contracts set to terminate at the completion of a task or project. These contracts are the lifeblood of the Banking, Finance, Construction and Entertainment industries to name a few. Moreover, I understand that Courts in both Canada and Germany have taken this view.

My contract happens to have a term determined by my 55 birthday; extendable at the gift of the company. I knew that when I joined; equally I knew that those older than me would leave at 55 and, by way of seniority, I would move up the ladder. I therefore view my contract as not only having obligations to my employers, but my fellow pilots as well.

Should anyone wish to alter that contract.. renegotiate.... but please don't dictate.....

[ACMS]

well if nothing else this IS entertaining.

NC : are you going to run for President? WE ALL WANT TO SEE YOU IN CHARGE PLEASE.......... go for it RL.

[1200firm]

FYI the difference between A & B has been about HK$1m per year for the last 15 years, if you include P-fund.Assuming similar lifestyles(which might not be the case of course) that's HK$15m extra disposable income & counting.Perhaps it puts that A-scale "paycut" into some perspective.There is no A-scaler who "needs" to work after 55.

[mcdude]

Liam - term contracts specify a term, normally in months. Our C of S specifies an age.

I reckon that if and when (more robust) age discrimination legislation is enacted in Hong Kong, ie statute law, age related clauses in our C of S will have to be deleted. The limiting factor then becomes the ability to hold the licence, 65 yrs+...

In this case payment of bypass pay could be deemed "discrimanatory" by those not receiving it... :hmm::hmm:

[raven11]

1200firm.

Wow.....what have you been smoking?? Are you sure the difference is not closer to 100 billion??

The difference in salary between a B Scale captain and me is about $20,000 HKG per month! I'm not suggesting that's a small number, but it sure isn't 15 million!

Not only that, it depends on housing allowance as well. If you were as stupid as I was and "locked in" your allowance in the low $40,000 range per month, then the difference between me and my B scale counterpart who is "floating" at $60,000 per month is ZERO!!! He may even be making more!

Furthermore, compare my Hong Kong salary to a B scale Captain on a base, and the crappy HKG dollar may have also nullified the difference.

I'll give you that the A scaler based in HKG might receive some travel allowance (as do some early B scalers) and better health coverage.

However, the A and B scalers based in North America will have better health coverage than anyone based in Hong Kong.

And lastly I, like most A scalers, gave up my provident fund a long time ago.

So 1200firm, does that sound like the "15 million" difference you describe????

Number Cruncher, is my gist correct, or is the difference 15 million as 1200firm contends?

[Shot Nancy]

Dear Liam,
Slightly off topic but every time I see mention of “line bids” I cringe. If you want a particular day off you have to bid for the line that has that day off and have to accept the remainder of the roster which may be extremely undesirable. They are better than nothing but not as good as a non-seniority based preferential bidding system.
Being non-seniority based means that everyone shares the good rosters and the !!!!ty ones. Just ask QF pilots about years on reserve.
Many systems out there allow you to plug in preferences such as: late starts, early starts, particular port overnights, night flying only, short layovers, long layovers etc.
Aim high you know management are going to whittle it down.
Now back to the battle.
Cheers

[fuji]

As someone who has a lot to lose out of RA65 (non cos08) sure i would like my command sooner but if you want to work here till you die (or lose your medical whichever is sooner) i don't care just pay me what is rightfully mine and that is BYPASS PAY when i am entitled to it (that means not when i am categorised!) because i PERSONALLY have no intention of reaping the benifits till im 65 just like what i signed up for. And i dont give a flying F*%K about AvB!

[SAD]

RL For president?

I think not. He does not even want it, I would hope, if he does it is all for his own ego, he quit rejoined and is not the authority he claims to be but is only good with numbers, the end. Listen but do not take it as the Gospel.

A vs B scales is all new and old !!!! over again, who stood up for A scalers in 99, B way more than A, clear as RL's mud.

RA 65 lets see what the f*^%$t the AOA comes up with, I am sure it will fall short of what junior officers deserve, but lets see what is on offer.

The wholier than you know who, go and f)(*#$ing read a history book. As for the new comers to this outfit, learn fast or you will be left waaaaaaay behind. That is the game being played and has nothing to do with the AOA, it is YOU. B tried to help A once and it sure as hell did not work, so look after yourself anything else will get you nowhere in this place.

You "guys" are all lost in this cause, it could have been sorted out a long time ago, so do not whine here, put your money where your mouth is. I think NOT.

Sorry forgot, we are talking about CX pilots, that is NEVER going to happen. You invented aviation. Sorry WE DID, I am one of the same F*@#)%wits that you are.

[SAD]

Who gave you BPP?

Yes he is a 49er, so do not even think you can achieve anything by sounding off here, it will get you nowhere. What do you deserve and expect? Everyone else before you sold you out, so what do you expect?

RA 65, NR is mad he wants what he wants, so do not mess with him, he is already hanging on a fine line, thanks to the flypast, sorry to bring that up again, but he will get what he wants despite what you think or say. Just accept it or else!

At the end of the day we invented aviation, and NR is now leading us.

[slip and turn]

they should make it so that like 15yr olds can fly, even 10 yr olds so that way they changes both min and max restrictions lolFrom the state of the input to this thread, looks like they removed the min criteria some time ago. Remind me not to get on a Cathay Pacific aircraft ever.

[pill]

Old boys, in case your wondering, as a junior officer it's very hard to respect someone who's to stupid to have put enough away, dosn't know how much is enough and has nothing better to do.

[iceman50]

PILL and others,

It is very hard to have respect for the "children" that have tantrums on this thread and then go on to say they are Professional Pilots and they deserve their command now and I want it right now or I am going to throw my toys out of the cot that my company has bought for me. Well they should stop flying these shiny new jets and go back to the bush and their safe little trikes they were flying before!

You have all obviously only been here a couple of years and should have had your Command yesterday. Get some time IN!!!

Cannot wait to hear the fallacious argument again about how you should have planned earlier etc etc. As has been said before plans change and can be affected by other factors requiring re-planning. But of course you "children" know it all and will have made the best plans and they will never need amending - just the sort of decision maker we need in the left seat!

Finally some of us actually enjoy flying!!! It is what we always wanted to do and still want to do, we did not take up the profession as we thought it would make us RICH. Some have been made rich others not, but hey that is LIFE, get over it.:rolleyes:

[Apple Tree Yard]

Iceman. Good post. However, trying to explain the obvious to the illiterate, juvenile and obnoxious lot that populate many of the right seats in this airline is a thankless and pointless task. CX decided to 'dumb down' the airline many moons ago...and have succeeded magnificently. I sometimes am left in awed amazement at the sheer level of dysfunction inherent in many of my colleagues. Couldn't care less what they think...as I have found most of them are incapable of any reasoned thought anyway....:ugh: ps. think we should get some '65' tie pins manufactured...:ok:

[pill]

Jesus, ice and apple, I just said you were clowns. You guy read all that other crap into it. Hit a nerve did I. Good

[Liam Gallagher]

On the 23rd April you wrote...
'STOP THE ARGUING CHILDREN'

and today you wrote....

"...illiterate, juvenile and obnoxious lot that populate many of the right seats in this airline..." and

"I sometimes am left in awed amazement at the sheer level of dysfunction inherent in many of my colleagues. Couldn't care less what they think...as I have found most of them are incapable of any reasoned thought anyway...."

I may not be capable of much reasoned thought... but I think you need to take a look in the mirror and then step outside and have a word with yourself.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Liam, Pill...what part of 'couldn't care less what you think' didn't you get? :hmm:

[Trafalgar]

Pill, I find that flying with kids like you 'hit's a nerve' every time.:bored:

[PanZa-Lead]

Unfortunately the immaturity crap written here is not only from young pilots in the right seat. The odd 777 captain (ACMS) is the worst. I could not give a sh.t what they say about RA65. The decision to fly past 55 is ONLY going to made by me and my family NOT some whinging B scaler.

[Liam Gallagher]

If you couldn't care less... why post on here....?

Or is it reasoned debate you don't care for....?

[bm330]

Within the multiple scales, agreements, and conventions at CX, there already is a way to fly past 55 - CoS 08. If anyone wants to keep flying, could they not reseign and re-sign on the new terms. There is lots of precedence to let people straight into the LHS lately.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Liam, you miss the obvious. The issue of 65 is seat based. IE: if you are already in the left seat, no problem with 65. If you are in the right seat, you are against it. That is of course, until you are promoted to the left seat, then, miraculously, you seem to find that 65 is no problem. I fully support a fair deal, but am tired of hearing comments from the children suggesting that I have no 'right' to fly beyond 55. When I hear that, I couldn't care less what happens to the lot of you at that point. Don't like my attitude.....well, you can imagine how much I care? Whether you like it or not, 65 is a done deal. Not just in HK, but worldwide. Get over it. ps. where does it say in your contract 'how long' it should be before you get a command...? hmmm, bit of a problem there me thinks.

[Liam Gallagher]

At least afford me the courtesy of reading my posts... I sure read yours!

Flying beyond 55, beyond 60 even, is old news. I'm in the right seat and never said I had issue with it; flown with a lot of guys with similar views. Whether one should or should not fly beyond 55, whether it's illegal or legally required is no longer up for debate... it's happening and been happening for nearly a decade...

The question is on what terms will it happen? It would seem this is being debated in earnest behind closed doors as we speak. The result of those talks could adversely effect you, me, or indeed Trafalgar; yet there is such limited debate about what terms are the best for the majority of guys... clearly there are going to winner(s) and losers.... I suspect one winner actually:rolleyes:

bm330... err.. Resign and go to the bottom of the seniority and pay lists:ugh:.. you fly beyond 55 and me on COS99 (as amended:rolleyes:) I get By-pass:ok:.. err perhaps NR wont like that.... non starter mate...

[obie2]

Would you agree with me if I were to suggest that ACM...or whatever he calls himself...

was nothing other than a bigmouth pain in the butt? :ok:

[ACMS]

obie.............come on buddy we are on the same team same dream band wagon aren't we?????????

your friend as always.............ACMS

( a:mad: condition monitoring system ) means I keep a check on YOU.


your in the big boys sand pit now, either learn to get along here or take your bucket and spade elsewhere.

[ACMS]

2 snippets of info I gleemed today

1/ Ki j Phil retires in Sept
2/ NR goes to Stanford uni ( US ) in June for 2 months.......so he's outta here.

that's why they want a DEAL NOW.

Stuff em

[Frogman1484]

When Phill goes we should all have a "F..k off Party" which he obviously will not be invited to!!!

:ok:

[404 Titan]

This bickering makes me sick. I couldn't care less if you are "A" or "B" scale, or a LHS or RHS driver, (I'm the second in both cases). I don't know how many times I have said it but this debate and eventual vote isn't about RA65. The company would have you believe it is though. This is about the company wanting to avoid bypass pay. Nothing more nothing less. What ever is negotiated it will be less than what we would currently get under our current contracts otherwise the company would just pay us the bypass pay.

Finally I don't think anyone and that most definately includes me think we deserve our command now as "Iceman50" would lead you to believe. What we are arguing here is our right to our contractually agreed conditions,ie bypass pay for extentions past 55.

[ACMS]

I am going to his farewell drinks for 2 reasons:

1/ drink free on his tab

2/ MAKE SURE HE IS REALLY LEAVING, AND PUSH HIM OUT THE GAY BAR FOR THE LAST TIME.

[Loopdeloop]

Is it time to step back from the negotiations, consult with the membership then tell them we promise to "talk about" RA65 and bypass pay once we've sorted out the pay issue?

I seem to remember the company promising to "talk about" pay once everything else had been sorted out when it suited them so it's obviously seen as a legitimate negotiating technique......we'll "talk about" RA65 once we've got what we want!

[Waterskier]

So if they go to RA65, is that mandatory retirement at 65? Or can you retire earlier and still get the PF and retiree travel benefits?

[Kitsune]

"Gleemed".... there's obviously a B scale English test too..........:rolleyes:

[badairsucker]

Apple tree yard



"...illiterate, juvenile and obnoxious lot that populate many of the right seats in this airline..."

"I sometimes am left in awed amazement at the sheer level of dysfunction inherent in many of my colleagues. Couldn't care less what they think...as I have found most of them are incapable of any reasoned thought anyway...."



Amazing,

May I suggest you go up to the 3rd floor and book yourself onto the next available CRM course because boy, you need it!!!!!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[Apple Tree Yard]

....yawn....:zzz:

[rtforu]

Now come on guys, stop stirring up poor old Apple Tree. I mean, can't you see from his post that this man is a cut above the rest, a superior being!

I marvel at how intelligent he must be, sitting there overseeing the illiterate, juvenile, bumbling F/O, it must be horrible for him. Apple never makes a mistake, you should see him in the sim, what an ace!

Apple is great to fly with too, he's so mature, he knows everything and he's always right, even when he's wrong! F/O's have a very easy flight with Apple Tree, he never needs any help from anyone, he's just so clever.

What you F/O's need to understand is that Apple was recruited when CX recruited real men, not like these days! You see, everyone employed after Apple was an idiot, he was CX's last great find, a sort of aviation messiah. In fact, the real reason CX want RA65 is because they can't stand the thought of losing Super Capt Apple.

So when you think about writing something nasty about this modern day superhero, think again. He's probably been out all night saving the world as only he can.

Keep up the good work Super Capt Apple Tree, we all sleep well at night in the knowledge that you are out there.

[Hiro Nakimura]

rtforu, classic!!!!!

404 titan makes a good point. All we want is CX to stick to the contract we already have. Why is there any need to negotiate or vote on bypass pay? They can extend every pilot to 65 now - nothing is stopping them!

[BlueBogey]

..when the dust settles on this '65 thing' you guys will see just how 'easy' it is to actually stand up to cx without industrial action.They'll impose what they want and you two snivelling pukes will cop it anyway to save your 'ever reducing' jobs and i'll have to listen to your crap in the cockpit. ad nauseum. All about how those nasty A scale guys refused to get fired and you wound up on B scale as as result.
You really don't know who you're dealing with do you?...fact is they'll squash anybody to get what they want and all the verbal waffling is just a waste of breath..the AOA is damage control only.
The A scale have been through more,risked more,lost more and stood up for more than you guys will ever know...why? because you weren't here to see it.JUST HOW MUCH EXACTLY IN DOLLAR TERMS DID YOU FORK OUT TO SUPPORT 49 GUYS WHO WERE EXECUTED?...nil I'll bet..just some gutless anonymous limp wristed punches at your work mates.
Your day will come...no pay rises,rising costs,bypassed for commands,basings all given away to cheap crews,longer hours with less crews,84 hrs magically up to 88,lesser overtime rates,..it's all happened before and WILL CONTINUE.
Stand up NOW..and don't let ST become another MG..he represents US..tell HIM what we want not the company dictate it.
A scale PAY rates for everyone...end of story.

[badairsucker]

rtforu,


Funniest post I have read for a while:D:D:D:D

[christn]

It's hardly surprising that the 'professional' status associated with pilots is being eroded when one reads some of the immature comments made here for all to see. How embarrassing to see the 'chav' mentality displayed by so many of my colleagues!

[Apple Tree Yard]

:zzz:....which is the usual reaction I have when flying with the recent generation of FO's. Most of you believe you are smarter than the majority of us 'old guys'. Perhaps, through the superior application of your superior intellect you can explain why you are working under the lowest pay and the worst conditions of most of the western worlds major airlines? The difference between you and I is that I joined CX knowing my value, as was reflected in the conditions and pay prevalent at the time. You of course joined knowing your value also.... Of course, we can continue to debate this on a 'friendly' level for the next 10 years....until I reach 65...! :E

[dogleg]

Wow. You really are a piece of work.

[betaboy]

A Cathay Pacific spokeswoman said the airline has been actively engaging the union and members of the crew community to discuss subjects of common interest, including retirement age.

"All staff were fully informed of the employment conditions, including the retirement age, when they accepted the company's employment," she said.

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail.asp?pp_cat=30&art_id=64457&sid=18491053&con_type=1

Seems like the company is quite eager to refer to the contractual employment conditions when dealing with cabin crew...

So why are we discussing this with the company exactly?

[Apple Tree Yard]

...you may not like the tone...but the sentiment is based on years of exposure to the very type of individual that I describe. As for what you or others think of me....I couldn't care less....:E

ps. the problems I describe are thankfully not as prevelant flying from the LHR base. More the case when it is an antipodean or canuck....

[leading_edge_device]

A point of thought I have noticed not being mentioned much is the location of extendee's within our basing network.
Those of us nearing 55 are starting to realise they can take a base now, after all those years in HKG. I firmly believe they feel they have the right to remain on the base post 55 if the NRA debarcle is sorted out prior to their retirement.
Well that sucks!

How fair is it to expect that our most senior crew can now have their cake and eat it too.
Any change/adjustment to our COS is going to hurt some and help others, obviously it will hurt those who are not left seat and not based to name a few.....
The help for the others will come in the form as previously mentioned. In the form of another possible 10 years at the stick to top up any expected capital required for the quality of life post CX they had dreamed of once their pay was frozen and the pay cuts were made. ( i understand that the share offer was not enough for these folks, as nothing seems to be enough for them these days anyway).

If our careers are to be extended with this airline without 100% support then that just shows that we can not all be pleased (whats good for the goose, is not always good for the gander)

I would like to see that any pilot flying beyond 55 should be repat'ed back to HKG so that at least the rest of us can enjoy the concept of life out of HKG.

:{ cheers L.E.D

[404 Titan]

Apple Tree Yard

The way you are carrying on I get the impression you could be a management mole. You seem to be doing their work for them after all, i.e. driving huge wedges in the pilot body with your antipodean and canuck comments. I’m one of the former and haven’t heard anyone carry on as you claim. We are well aware of what is in our contract and all we want is if the company extend you or any other pilot past 55 we get paid what our contract says we should get paid. Nothing more nothing less. To denigrate us the way you have doesn’t do your cause any good what so ever. I suggest you please think about that before you post here again.

[leading_edge_device]

Titan.
Fistly I can only say you are roughly 6500nm from guessing where i come from.
I am no where near 55 nor do I want to be as that would mean I would have missed seeing the kids grow up and watch their young dad become an even more synical bastard than he is now!

My DOJ puts me just ahead of the middle of the pack and the reality of a command basing in OZ is rapidly deminishing owing to the fact that CX are only dribbling out the vacancies, unlike the freighter spots they seem to have just filled for Man744F.

If another STC tells me he needs to get back to a base before the company goes onshore so he can stay there until 65, i will puke!

Try this on for size... I have had the chance to grace myself with the presence of some very senior drivers lately that have confessed to asking PW for another temp base or perm base on the 744F in syd, on B Scale!
The comments were that they don't need A scale anymore, they have enough money, all they want now is to get home without having to scrounge for spare jumpseats on the numerous overloaded flights home.

Does it not bother you or anyone else that we are yet again being stabbed in the back by the same guys we thank for the sector.

A growing numer of these guys are getting hungrier for the chance to take a base just before the system locks them out so they can hopefully sit out their last years on that base.

When do you forsee the rest of us getting one then hey.

[PanZa-Lead]

To denigrate us the way you have doesn’t do your cause any good what so ever.

Maybe you should be aiming this statement at a few of your B scale mates who post anti A Scale stuff all the time. But what you say about RA 65 and your contract is correct. I would like to continue my career past 55 but in doing so the company must honour your contract with by-pass pay. We should all unite against the company for this to happen and stop this senseless A vs B scale thing. As things go now we are going to lose this battle and we will still be here on pprune blaming each other.

[leading_edge_device]

Yes my point is not to bash any employee group.
If we are to move forward on this matter without the knowledge of a better pay deal we are left like this, constantly fighting about the what if's and maybe's!

If an A scale pilot is to be extended then extend them on their current conditions, likewise if the B &F scales are to be forced to accept a new retirement age then there should be full compensation for the change to career.

I would not expect any pilot from CX to have to accept a crappier deal just because of a critical mass of votes on this whenever it comes around.

For the A scale'ers it must be tough praying for a pay rise when some of your bretheren are happy to keep going beyond NRA55 on less than what they were paid before.

Hey call me a sceptic, but this !!!!e has been ops normal for so long now it seems to be the norm, lets face it we are all lining our nests and don't care if some guy lays his/her head on block for their own cause. All we do is take the piss out of them once they crash and burn in their new ventures or we constanly harp on the idea that there is nothing else out there as good as this?

I have heard the idea of a career change in the past, but if all we do is run away from our problems they will never get fixed:ugh:

[badairsucker]

Apple tree yard,


You have made my mind up, I will now join the AOA and vote NO for RA65 so we can get people like yourself out of here. Your attitude stinks.......



Now run along and tell yourself how good you are............

[christn]

Why is it that we accept direct entry commands (ASL,Dragonair and shortly Oasis) with barely a whimper yet the possibility of our current colleagues extending their contracts creates such bitterness?

[404 Titan]

leading_edge_device

Where did this come from? My post was directed at ATY not you. For the record I agree with you regarding bases. It was an underhanded thing the company did to simply fill the bases and get those “pesky A scalers” (company’s term) out of HK.

My personal opinion is that the company should either offer 65 to everyone or no one at all. In saying that it shouldn’t in any way compromise my contractual rights to bypass pay. Of course the company doesn’t want that hence the negotiations taking place with the AOA as we speak. Make no mistake, these negotiations aren’t about RA65 but about bypass pay. We can’t stop RA65 being offered but we can make the company pay for it by making them honour our contract if we all “A & B scales” stick together.

PanZa-Lead
Maybe you should be aiming this statement at a few of your B scale mates who post anti A Scale stuff all the time.
That’s why I have said in #83:
This bickering makes me sick. I couldn't care less if you are "A" or "B" scale, or a LHS or RHS driver, (I'm the second in both cases).
The company quite clearly require RA65 to drive their expansion plans. We should all require them though to honour our contract and pay bypass pay when extending any pilot past 55. We have the upper hand here guys. Let’s use it.

[bobrun]

I too strongly agree that bypass pay must be paid in the event of RA65, BUT we have to remember that it only gets paid to those assessed as suitable. There are rumors that S/Os assessments are being delayed til near the actual upgrade, so what prevents the company from doing the same with command bypass pay? We deserve bypass pay since it's in our contract, but we also need to address the issue of the assessment.

[ACMS]

Holy smokes, and I thought I was the only Bitter and twisted bloke in here.

A few of us should take a LONG LOOK IN THE MIRROR.

I just did, yuk.

[Johnny767]

This thread should be mandatory reading, for every new student at the local "Aviation College."

So they have a chance to....get out, before it is to late.

I wonder if other, so called professionals, have forums like this?

Anonymity and the Internet have really hurt us, I doubt anyone would talk like this, face to face.

[Loopdeloop]

Bobrun
They can't do it to Command bypass pay unless they cat D you. Read your CoS.

[BlueBogey]

sooooo.... you feel that 20 years seniority has no value when applying for a base? and that employing all new defo's directly onto a base in no way inconveniences our current f/o's in hkg who would like to be in YVR or SYD?
grow a head!
basings vacancies should ALL be seniority derived NOT save cx a buck driven.
And when you middle-of-the-road crew grow up just a little more you'll see there will be NO MORE bases at all for you.
Just as you slag off senior guys for wanting to go home after 20 years choking on smog in HKG ...so too will you be unable to due to direct entry hires today.
After 2008 there will be no more base transfers....unless you take a massive pay cut.:hmm:

[BlueBogey]

Just how is getting rid of A scales going to improve the lot of B scalers?
You honestly think that the money cx saves from that exercise will be disbursed amoungst the remaining crew?
bwahahahahahahahahahhahahah.......

[Kitsune]

CX can do whatever they f*ckin' well feel like..... read your CX history:*

[freightdoggiedog]

CX can do whatever they f*ckin' well feel like..... read your CX history

Like they did with age 65 in the UK? ;)

Times, they are a changin'...

[Hiro Nakimura]

I can understand A scalers being afraid of the big CX schoolyard bully. But for those of you with kids old enough, what advice do you give them? Kowtow as much as possible, run, hide? Or do you tell them to stand up to the bully -sensibly and possibly with help!?

WHen is enough, enough? I was quite surprised with their actions in 2001 in firing 49 people. Went to show that this 21st century airline is being run by 19th century coal mine managers. The cowardly Star chamber is another symptom of a gutless unaccountable bully syndrome - people with real character would identify themselves to candidates that have upgrades denied and would state why - real men! The incestuous self congratulating crowd of Arkansas idiots we have upstairs are busy congratulating themselves on how they got the manning just right -almost nooooo overtime!

So boys and girls, what do we do? Stand up to the bully and see if times have changed? Kow tow and accept whatever happens, like back door DECs, reduced BPP?

If my child couldn't succeed with the bully I would move him/her to a new school - same goes here. CX might still be better than most airlines but I will not remain at an airline where I have to roll over and expose my belly like some submissive dog!

[worm]

After reading some of the replies both from A scale captains and others, I am both embarrassed and ashamed to think they are the colleagues I fly with every day.
In my former life as a Captain in the RAAF it was expected you would show leadership in the way you fly, foster the development of your cockpit colleagues, and the way you conduct yourself generally. Yet I see very little of these traits generally in CPA.
To those former A scalers still bemoaning their loss of a golden deal and counting the "apparent" cost to them, get over it, you had the chance to vote with your feet when it was implemented. That you didn't indicates you accept it still represents a good deal and probably better than you could get elsewhere. Remember you are still being paid more to do the same job than a B scaler. And be honest, you would have still joined if you had initially been offered B scale rates.
As for my fellow B scalers why bemoan someone else getting a reasonable deal? I don't, as long as it isn't at the direct cost of other pilots including me. If I already had airline command time then I could vote with my feet, however being a "mature joiner" if I want to see command before 55 then I have to stay with this outfit.
I don't know how anyone can fault the logic of NC in the age 65 issue. One pilot body, one pay scale, one set of COS!! Stop the infighting and focus our energies at improving everyones lot. Accept that new-joiners will accept a lower package as a foot in the door, but established pilots accepting a lower package post-55 (housing and pay), or freighter command are reducing the bargaining power of EVERYONE.

[missingblade]

worm says -

In my former life as a Captain in the RAAF it was expected you would show leadership in the way you fly, foster the development of your cockpit colleagues, and the way you conduct yourself generally. Yet I see very little of these traits generally in CPA

Some Greek said - " Bad company corrupts good character!"

[Hiro Nakimura]

missing blade,
he said air force, not navy or army;-)

[raven11]

Worm. Is your post a wind-up???

You can't be serious? So you were a Captain in the RAAF? Did you mention that during your interview with CX? I'm sure it would have impressed them.

You may not have noticed, but at least half of the senior pilots you bemoan are accomplished ex-military pilots (heck, some have even shot down enemy fighters..and one Herc!). I can only guess that you didn't notice because we don't use it as an introduction!

But the fact you think it gives you license to preach that A Scalers are greedy and should "get over things" is a bit rich! Especially as you go on to say that we should all stick together. A tiny bit of a contradiction...don't you think?

Quite frankly, although we may not have flown together, I think my colleagues and I "conduct" ourselves quite professionally..thank you very much! Upgrades are not just given away here?

Most people would say they are proud to have "earned" their stripes, and are maybe just a tiny bit resentful about being judged by junior pilots (ex-military or not) that are still in need of...what were your words, "fostering and developing".

BTW, and quite "honestly", I would not have joined on B scale. So you get over that!

As we said when I was in the Air Force, get some "time-in" before you make judgments or comment.

[jtr]

heck, some have even shot down enemy fighters..and one Herc!

I beg your parton...

[Kitsune]

So I take it that "Captain" in the RAAF means 'jumped up little tosspot'........?:ugh:

[Frogman1484]

Raven 11, well done mate, the only error you are doing is in assuming that you are being criticized by junior crew only...no mate there are a lot of B scale captains that are equally put off by this whole debacle.

The fact that you say that you would not have joined on B scales is probably correct, but the fact of the matter is that quite a few guys are more than happy to extend on B scales. They have even chosen to train within 2 weeks of retirement,after being a line pilot for 20 years and telling us all on how he cannot wait to leave this Sh1t company and on how he is counting rosters.

I'm sorry mate but a lot of "Senior Pilots" are making your argument loose impact

[raven11]

Frogman.

Valid point taken.

I guess we all want ( and deserve) to be respected by our colleagues.

What gets up my nose is someone insulting individuals on A scale, or Cathay's flight operations, as "worm" does in his post.

Full disclosure, I'm an A scale pilot, and a product of the Cathay system. I've flown both military and civil aviation prior to Cathay, and I can honestly say that Cathay flightcrew and flight operations are second to none! When someone gets his stripes at Cathay (two, three, or four bars) he deserves to be congratulated, not angrily diminished, as you so frequently see here.

Is that too much to ask?

Yes there are pay and contract issues that need to be resolved. Let's hope the AOA is up to the task of ensuring that we are "all" looked after fairly.

[Frogman1484]

Just remember that "Respect" can only be earned not demanded. There are a lot of guys out there that say one thing and then do another.

There are those that on one hand expect the AOA to sort out all of their issues while they go and join the training camp and most probably they are not even part of the AOA, because it costs too much!. How many Ascalers are actually in the AOA?

How about the A scaler that is pi..ed off that the AOA has blocked RA65 but he is more than happy to extend on Bscales with limited housing and no schooling...talk about the cart being pulled in both directions. The more guys that extend on these terms the less chance the rest of you have of ever going to 65 on Ascales!!!

Finally you also have the guys that are pissed off about the deal but are working on G days helping the company out at the expense of the rest of the pilot body.

I'm sorry to say but the GREED of hand full of senior pilots is going to bring the whole deal down to Bscales