FIR Renewal/lapsed

[Backontrack]

Hi

I've searched and can't find a thread on this issue; my FIR lapsed in Feb this year and I want to get it back. I understood I simply needed to do a flight test, however, a pal tells me I will also need to do a seminar as well due to the fact that my initial FIR has lapsed/expired.

Can anyone clarfiy this for me, I want to get back in the air and I am hating paying £150 an hour to fly again when I've got a FIR sat dormant!

Thanks

[the dean]

hi bacontrack,

you do'nt say whether you have a JAA or national licence.
i'm in JAAland and we have to do 100 hours instructing in the period of the validity of the rating ( of which 30 must be in the twelve months prior to expiry ) AND a seminar..or seminar and flight check. so it must be two of the three...HOWEVER...we also now have a relatively new thing...that no matter how many hours you have done instructing in the period of the rating and the seminar, neverthless, you can only revalidate by proficiency every second time...in other words you have to do a flight check every other time ( plus the seminar ).

as you rating has expired ( and if you system is similar ) i think you will have to do a seminar..and a flight check.

hope thats of some help but no doubt others in your jurisdiction will advise if your system is any different.

gear up..:ok:

[Backontrack]

TD

Thanks for the response, that supports what I discovered today. I hold a JAA licence, have done approx 1200hrs instruction, however, have not instrcuted for 12 months, so I don't meet the experience criteria and guess I'll have to start chasing up a seminar date and flight test.

Thanks for your input.

[scherzo]

Yes it will have to be a seminar plus flight test with FIE, I'm afraid

[lady in red]

You might be interested to know that On-track aviation are running a seminar next week 28th and 29th at Sywell. After that you may have quite a long wait till the next one.
Also, for anyone interested reading this thread, the experience requirement for revalidation of an FI has been halved to 50 hours in 3 years of which only 15 need to be in the last 12 months.

[Fuel Crossfeed]

Hi all

Just read the previous posts with interest as my FI rating has also expired.

Could some please tell me what the seminar consists of.
I guess I have to hand over a fistfull of cash to the provider, then sit and listen to lectures, briefs etc etc.
Do the individuals on the seminar also have to give briefings and will you be told the subject matter before attending the seminar.
What is the approx cost of these seminars, and judging by Lady in Reds post seminars seem to be few and far between and also in a lot of demand.
Thanks FC

[Whopity]

Yes you have to give briefings and no you will not be told in advance but: if you have a pet subject and can convince your team to give a brief on that subject you might find a bit of pre seminar prep useful.
Further details here re content: http://www.ontrackaviation.com/fi-seminars.htm

Also, for anyone interested reading this thread, the experience requirement for revalidation of an FI has been halved to 50 hours in 3 years of which only 15 need to be in the last 12 months.
AIC 72/2007 notified a change of hours for the revalidation of FI(H) ratings in accordance with JAR-FCL 2.320G AL4 to 50/15 but: JAR-FCL 1.355 AL7 still requires 100/30 hours for aeroplanes.

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Is the 50/15 requirement to be introduced for fixed-wing?

[18greens]

AFS, "Is the 50/15 requirement to be introduced for fixed-wing?"

Already done, see section H1.7 LASORS.

Hoorahh!! - But why did they do it?

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Whopity says it doesn't apply to fixed wing (unless I misread that post) and the FIE I spoke to a few days ago told me 100/30.

However, you're right, it does say so in LASORS. A promulgation problem, I think.

[18greens]

AFS - and the great thing is no matter what anyone thinks or believes or knows, if its in LASORs its the truth no matter what.

I'm surprised this one slipped in under the radar with no noise. If your FIE doesn't know about it and it wasn't mentioned in training.com and there was no AIC, there was no effort in promulgating it other than changing LASORs which no-one reads unless they have to. Yet obviously someone did some thinking and rewriting.

Anyway for once we win!!!! -but why???

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

I think it's a good thing. A fellow Instructor has just let his FI Rating lapse (obviously didn't know about the rule change) because he couldn't manage 30 hours before expiry. Faced with the prospect of a flight test AND a seminar, he probably won't ever renew now that he has a full-time job.

[Whirlybird]

There IS an AIC - I found it when I first heard a rumour about this reduction in hours. I can't remember the details of it, but I daresay a search would find it. But it's fairly recent, doesn't seem to have been well-publicised, so unless someone burned the midnight oil every night reading every bit of paper that came out of the Belgrano, as of course we all do.....

I've been to one seminar, and it was OK. Every GROUP does a briefing, so you'll only have to talk for five minutes at most, probably less. If one person in your group likes the sound of their own voice, you can get away with very little if that's what you want. But it's not scary, honest. I quite enjoyed the whole experience of the seminar, despite to some extent resenting the time and money I had to spend. I'd far rather go to a seminar than do a test, but then, I do have a bad case of exam-phobia, so maybe I'm not typical.

I'm delighted about the hours change. I have hundreds of instructing hours in the last two years - I was fulltime for a year, then had several students of my own. But now, things have gone very quiet, and what with one thing and another I have very little instructing work. Since I make more money from writing about aviation than actually aviating, I can live with that for a while if I have to. But I just started my last year before revalidation! I can hopefully manage 15 hours, but not sure about 30. And that would have been so infuriating and unfair after doing so much instructing a bit back. In fact, it might even have led me to decide to abandon the whole thing as well.... :{

Anyone need a part time unrestricted helicopter FI in the Midlands or a bit further North?

[Whopity]

The AIC is 72/2007 but only relates to Helicopters. JAR-FCL 1 AL 7 which as yet has not been adopted says 100/30 for aeroplanes and I can find no reference to support the change for aeroplanes. LASORS is only guidance and may well be wrong. It may have been assumed that a change to FCL2 would also apply to FCL1 when in reality no change has been made.

AIC 20/2003 para 1.1 which is still current states that all FI revalidations shall comply with JAR-FCL 1.355 and 2.355. In the absence of any other AIC that takes precedence over LASORS.

[BEagle]

Whopity, next time you're down in the Belgrano doing your day job, please pop along to see Ben and ask him why the AIC on this topic hasn't yet been released.

[homeguard]

There is a very real problem developing in the dissemination of information with regard to what is the 'law'. Law is important; loss of licence (job), fines and/or prison and no less serious, loss of reputation. Others perhaps spend a lot of hard earned and borrowed cash when perhaps it was unnecessary.

The ANO is modified by an amendment but we are not told - go to the latest copy of the ANO and it has not changed. You must know that an amendment is published before you can find it. Those who read pprune threads learn of things but can't really know for sure. We would have known nothing about the NPPL changes effective from the end of January if BEagle had not posted a thread. But, we do not know who BEagle is so why should we act upon that information, yet we do in the absence of anything official. We trust him but we do not know why. He is for most of us is only a 'virtual' person, he might not exist.

At the latest GAPAN/CFS Senior Instructors Conference, I was told specifically that to upgrade, as of now, the FI(r) would only require 50 hours of instructing to do so. Lady in Red (I know who she is) responded telling me that I had confused the instructor revised revalidation requirement and that there was no change to the upgrade rules. I knew of the revised FI revalidation requirement published in LASORS however and was not confused.

Whopity (another virtual person) now tells us that the 2008 LASORS revalidation rules, as published there, is not law after all because the statutory changes have not taken place.

How the hell then are those on the shop floor able to get on with their daily business when the rule makers are in such a mess and the law is sent out via the back door and more often, only then, through a keyhole!

[BEagle]

Quite so!

By the way, the AIC concerning NPPL changes was published last Thursday and is now available on the AIS website.

[Whopity]

Long Term Exemption Number 79 says it all; it is well hidden:
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/137/which%20version%20of%20jarfcl%20are%20we%20usingv2.pdf

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

While we're on the subject of rules, regulations and the promulgation and understanding thereof, can anyone explain to me a statement made in the last TRAININGCOM (1/2008) regarding CRI revalidation.

It says, "Unlike the FI Rating however, the CRI rating may be revalidated solely by experience."

To me, that sounds as though nothing is required except sufficient experience (and completion of the relevant Certificate of Revalidation by a FIE.) This contradicts LASORS and the CAA have told me that refresher training (a proficiency check) is required and that it is up to the FIE to determine the content/extent of that training.

[Stan Evil]

Arfur - are you confusing revalidation with renewal? To revalidate a CRI you only need to show 10 hours of instructing in the previous 12 months; alternatively you can conduct or receive refresher training to the satisfaction of the CAA. If you are renewing then you have to receive refresher training and pass another instructor test. It's all in LASORS:

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/175/Section%20H%20-%20INSTRUCTOR%20RATINGS.pdf

[Arfur Feck-Sake]

Stan Evil,

Thanks for response. I see what you mean, I must have confused revalidation/renewal in my reading of LASORS. However, I was definitely discussing revalidation with the CAA when they assured me that a proficiency check is required.

So does that mean that a CRI, if he keeps the rating valid, need never have his proficiency checked by a FIE?

Am I still confusing something?

[Stan Evil]

No you're not confusing anything. The revalidation rules for FI, IRI and CRI are all different:

An FI must do a flight test at least every other revalidation plus either experience or seminar.

An IRI doesn't have to do a flight test so could always revalidate by seminar and experience if he so chose.

A CRI can always just revalidate by experience - no flight test ever after the initial.

An FI with embedded IRI or CRI privileges (ie FI SEME with applied IF restriction removed) can't separate those bits out to avoid them being included in the flight test.

[Mintflavour]

Hi,
I brought this thread back alive as it is related to what has already been said.
My FI(R) expired last May and the last time I instructed was in January. I want to renew my FI(R) so no matter what my hours are I believe I need to do a Seminar and Flight test.
Looking at Ontrack they do seminars for £250, they also do a renewal package of £800 which includes both seminar and flight check with A/C hire included.
Bloody expensive like anything in aviation, but anyone know of any cheaper places to go to as money at the moment is a big issue. Im currently based in Northants (East Midlands) and willing to travel but not to scotland if you what I mean.

Cheers

Mint

[portsharbourflyer]

A multi crew IR does not give you any SPA IR privileges (unless the rules have changed recently).

So to teach IR in a SPA you will need a current single pilot IR.

I suppose in thoery you could teach instrument flying (with the student under the hood) without a valid SPA IR if you remain in VMC, but realistically that would be quite limiting.

[Stan Evil]

A fundamental principle of JAA is that you must hold the rating that you're teaching for. So, if an IRI wishes to teach for a single-pilot IR, he must hold a single-pilot IR. He can't teach for a multi-pilot IR as these are type-specific and are the province of TRIs.

However, an IRI can also teach for an IMC Rating. To do that he needs to hold:

1. A single pilot IR
or
2. An IMC Rating
or
3. A UK National (not JAA) CPL or ATPL - both of which have embedded IMC privileges.