CX 777 Flyby CP sacked

[HKJunkie]

Anyone seen or heard of a "Salute" on youtube?

[ACMS]

I love a good flyby like the rest of us....................but I can't say I think that one was too cleaver. A bit low and slow.

Glad they didn't have an engine failure then.

I hear some on the 3rd floor aren't too impressed by it, I can see why.

thoughts?????

[Sqwak7700]

"I love a good flyby like the rest of us....................but I can't say I think that one was too cleaver. A bit low and slow."

...Actually you just proved that you don't. Fly-bys at higher altitudes are lame.

"Glad they didn't have an engine failure then."

...Would have been a non event. They looked clean and most likely where quite light. I'm sure the GE-90 would have had no problems dealing with it, especially being that the engines ARE BRAND NEW. I would much rather have an engine failure when clean than in the landing configuration. Would you say the same if they had just done a regular ol' touch and go?? :ugh:

"I hear some on the 3rd floor aren't too impressed by it, I can see why."

...Ah, when is the last time that anything the 3rd floor was impressed with was good? You are talking about the people who write our manuals and set company policy now. Surely you don't seem to imply that they have good judgment and aviation know-how? :ugh:

"thoughts?????"

...yeah, but I don't want my post to be edited and it really isn't worth it. :mad:

[SMOC]

From the pics that were at the end of a weekly update, its F1 or 5 (LE and a little TE flap).

I'm not on the 777.

[HKJunkie]

Does CX have a policy on low fly-by's? I am not a pilot but it seems to me that this is not the usual thing for a large transport aircraft to do. I recall CX 330 and I think 744, performing at Avalon and Farnborough some time ago though.

[The Wraith]

Damn, this is a fun place to work...:{

[Peebee and Jay]

Excellent! Nicely done boys. :D

[ACMS]

It was done by the 777 CP with no practice beforehand.
Flap was at 15 and he was doing 200 kts

he got down to 50' on the Rad Alt.

3 rd floor test Pilot's ( yes the real test Pilot's ) not impressed at his off the cuff fly by at 330 tonnes with quite a few people on board.

If it was at 260 kts clean at 100' I would have been happier.

Still, it looks good.

[arse]

So having set the standard .... I guess that all delivery flights are now authorised to do the same? :8

[badairsucker]

Quality, great fly by.:D

[aislinn]

Read FAA!! They will see this and if they did not approve it there will be questions. No gear down means airshow. Better have authority, especially in such a high profile vehicle.
Nuff sayd!!!

[SMOC]

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/a/0108/bkpf_300108paetd3.jpg

[SMOC]

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/a/1007/bkpc_301007paetd1.jpg

[Glass Half Empty]

Well with fuel so expensive these days that must have been CFP and use the Contingency ....... not!

Must do that on the next flight under Other...........+5T flyby. Do you think anyone would notice??:ok:

[Flat out!]

Flaps up and Flat out would have been better, perhaps a bit higher to avoid trigering the FDAP as well.......:ok:
Here's an example,
http://www.alexisparkinn.com/photogallery/Videos/2006-757_departure.wmv

[Virtual Reality]

Fuel? Its FREE because Boeing should handover the aircraft with full fuel in the tanks. It is part of S & P agreement.

[aviatorguy]

As an outsider, I take it that the flyby was well rehearsed and practiced in a simulator beforehand(and at least authorised at management level)? Potentially, that was a very risky manoeuvre. Had it been an 'off the cuff' flyby, I too would be concerned as a fleet manager - particularly if it had other than essential crew on board.

Personally, I believe that was too low. I agree with the comment that 100' would have been more appropriate and 99% as effective.

[chards]

Aviatorguy, it was the fleet manager who did it.

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

Thank God is wasn't off the cuff!!! Otherwise they'd be flying Rubber Dog !!!! outta Hong Kong........:cool:

[henrypottinger]

what if our world collided with mars...
what if all the crew had heart attacks...
what if, what if, what if,what if, what if...
blah blah blah.....

get a life you analytical , questioning
diagnostic robots - inject some good
old reality and sense of being into your
lives....

beautiful fly-by from a well respected
chief. would you see that from other
heads? I don't think so....

[HKJunkie]

Wow HP attacking the other "chiefs" for not being up to a "low slow flyby". I am sure we all hope so! How about injecting a sense of reality?
It was a stupid and reckless thing to do by all accounts.
Passengers on board, disabling warning systems, +/- 30 feet above the runway on a windy day, no practice, rehearsing beforehand and most likely breaking several FAA aviation rules.
How is this "chief" ever going to chastise or reprimand a junior pilot for stepping out of line or not following procedures?
Tough call?

[Swanie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9es4uTP94DQ

thoughts?:E

[MACH.88]

I think the pics turned out just fine...dont you?

Nice work!

[henrypottinger]

I regret getting sucked into this.

300 tons of metal going > 200 kts not enough momentum for you?
Do you stand at the end of the runway watching every twin take
off wagging your finger at it and questioning its safety should an
engine fail? Well perhaps you should be since an engine failure
at this stage is far more critical. whats more is the fact that the
777 is more than capable. that was clearly a very stable
fly past and clearly not an attack on anyone on my part.
your strong use of expressions such as "attack" makes you sound
like a journalist looking for attention. don't sensationalize
a simple situation, and view on it.

Great fly-by.....beautiful aeroplane......

[Mr. Bloggs]

Fox two?:E

[FlexibleResponse]

See also the thread KPF:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=313418

[FlexibleResponse]

This was a non-commercial delivery flight from the manufacturer to CX in Hong Kong.

With "appropriate training", this flyby can be executed safely and at the same time, still provide a spectacular display.

A rumour going around reports that the flyby was personally authorised by the Chief Pilot and also the CEO of CX...?

[routetuner]

Its not a CLEAVER its clever! Was thet SLAPFAAN? Again!

[routetuner]

Great pic but not professional! CX flight ops will not be impressed. I am not too. Stupid boeing people. I don't allow my aircraft to do that and neither should others!

[chards]

Seems like a few here aren't getting it- THE CHIEF PILOT WAS FLYING THE AIRCRAFT!!! Of course he bl**dy authorised it!!!!

[routetuner]

i agree- they give us crap all the time on 'stabilised approaches' and THEY can do this! Double standards. Good for the goose is good for the gander! I don't think THEY have a grip on what really happens!

[badairsucker]

I think a few of you need a chill pill.

Flybys have always been part of aviation and a delivery flight is one of those occasions where it's nice to have a bit of fun and a flyby is nice to see.


I the current strict SOP driven industry we all fly in it's a joy to see an aircraft doing a nice flyby.

As for safety, get a grip, it was flown by an experienced pilot doing a very straight forward flyby......


Please chill out:ugh::ugh::cool:

[aislinn]

bas,
I hope to God you dont fly for CX. If you think that this was "a very straight forward flyby" then we are all in deep caca.
I am not sure what is more of a concern, that we have a CP doing this (read I think he screwed up), or the supporters on this forum who seem to celebrate the great stunt. Has TEM or common sense not taught us anything.
This was dangerous and not "straight forward".
I dont submit alot of posts on this forum but the lack of understanding of the gravity of this event amazes me. I thought I could count on putting my family safely on the back of a CX jet, but after some of the comments here I have to seriously reconsider that. I hope it is just a bit of 777 fever and a new toy mentality rolled into one.
We are not a third world outfit but maybe some of us are starting to think like one.

OUT

[Numero Crunchero]

Two experienced pilots flew 50-80kts above the stall margin at a low level. Whats the problem?

Twelve years ago you were called a poof if you needed to bring up the power above idle before 500' on a visual approach from the east lamma channel. How times have changed!

[rick.shaw]

Fair point NC, and absolutely correct. I was called a poof many times by some old school pilots in the earlier days of my 'career' in CX for the grossly conservative visual approaches to said airport. Winding the thrust up at 1000' was a complete waste of fuel - I see the error of my ways now!

Trouble is, I now get nervous if the FO hasn't achieved landing config by 2000' and hasn't got the thrust up by 1500'. Maybe I'm just getting old!

[badairsucker]

aislinn

Give me your mailbox number and i'll drop a chill pill in there for you mate.

[Team America]

Don't think he would come out of his cotton wool house to get it.

Or there might be a risk of choking and dying if he takes it so better not give him one! :}

[19weeler]

Although 99% of the cx chief pilots I have met have been arrogant, egotistical, rude, condescending, with below average flying skills and even worse management skills.............

Good on ya mate!!! Nice fly-by!!!

Too bad you didnt scrape the ass and lose your job!!!

[Daffyd Thomas]

COWBOY PACIFIC




A fairly cost effective re-brand one would say.



Bacardi and Coke thanks Myfanwy.

[HotDog]

Daffyd, do you know the definition of V2? You have to clear a 35' screen height at the scheduled V2 speed according to your weight in takeoff configuration. For instance on a Classic 747 with a takeoff weight of 320,000kgs, the V2 is 169 knots (Flaps 10). The 777 in question was doing 200+ knots in a clean configuration at 50-80' and 300 tons weight. Jet aircraft are regularly below 100' at V2 speeds less than 200knots which takes care of a failed engine at the critical V1. Get real fellows, or are you jealous you were'nt on board:confused:

[arse]

Do they still teach HAZARDOUS ATTITUDES in CRM these days?

Anti-authoritarian, Impulsivity, Invulnerability, Exhibitionist, Resignation

Four out of five demonstrated is not a bad effort!.

I doubt the majority on the forum have a problem with a “fly-by”, but thankfully the majority can identify poor judgement in how it was done. Faster and higher would have been FANTASTIC, and INFINITELY SAFER.

[HotDog]

There was absolutely nothing unsafe about it arse. Great user name but what on earth is HARARDOUS ATTITUDES supposed to mean:confused:

[Pollution IV]

I am truly amazed. When I saw this video I thought it must be doctored. If what has been said so far is at all true, then there should definitely be some heads rolling over this stunt.

Unbriefed low flying with little or no work-up in a heavy transport cat acft with pax onboard, all self-authorised….did I get that right? Pilots who have any experience with display flying will tell you that this is a disastrous combination. Truly unbelievable by someone who is supposed to be a custodian of flying standards at CX. Furthermore, this ‘beat-up’ had nothing to do with confidence in acft handling, but rather was an exercise in pointless risk taking, recklessness and incredibly poor airmanship, serving to pander to this individual’s ego. Anyone endorsing this activity should have a good hard look at themselves and their understanding of professionalism. The only way airline pilots should do low flying is to go to an aeroclub, get properly endorsed, certified and trained and do it in acft that are more suited to this type of op.

For the uninitiated/unaware etc the following are just 2 examples of what can happen to highly skilled, highly trained pilots who fly lower than their auth or do stupid things in large acft (which are extremely unforgiving in cases of misjudgment):

B52 Capt with over 20 yrs on type, but with similar hazardous attitudes as seen in the 777 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7aLEKBlhNk

A320 flown by an Airbus test pilot who did little more than break his auth hgt by 100’:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzD4tIvPHwE

see any similarities? Does the 777 CP consider himself a better trained, more capable pilot than these guys?

Even if this ‘salute’ was properly prepared and authorised with some semblance of a risk management process, how on earth can this be considered as a positive promotion for CX as a responsible airline? I like a good airshow as much as anyone, but for god’s sake do it professionally. What’s next…. unbriefed formation enroute to TPE?

Quotable quote: “You can only equal the record for low flying!”

[Captain TOGA]

I think it's fair to assume "Pollution IV" is an Aussie. Also, more than likely he is a former member of a well known aeroclub (RAAF).

[777300ER]

I definitely agree that this guy should be disciplined. If your going to do a fly by, at least do it at 300 knots or more. The whole 200 knots thing was rather boring if you ask me... :yuk:

[csd]

I've done whole trips lower than that at 300 kts. Admittedly it wasn't as big as a 777 but I don't see the problem. There was no manoeuvring worth talking about, no excess 'g', no obstructions. I'm sure that all those onboard loved it!

Regards

csd

[Cider30]

This just shows what we think of ourself at Cathay.

OK, so lets say it was authorised, well rehersed etc. But how does a CX CEO, DFO or anybody else waive FAA rules etc. Unfortunately the company and many of us employees think that as long as CX prints something it is the law and sound judgement is left to the people who does the typing.

That being said, awesome flyby, looked really good, 30 or 50 ft, so what, there was nothing unsafe about it. There was nothing unsafe about doing inverted flight at 250' instead of the minimum 300' I had to adhere to in previous life either, but it was still breaking the rules, and so was this flyby.

I will leave to others what the penalty of breaking the rules should be.....

[latchkeykid]

i dont know about the pollution making it hard to breath, but having ones head that far up it obviously does. have you all forgeten what fun it used to be being a pilot? Wasnt this a part 91 flight for those of you gasping FAA through quivering lips? how much practice does it need to fly and aircraft well above V2 with lots of momentum in a shallow climb? At least he is not explaining blue juice on the roof. Get a life, I hope you would have done it if you had the chance, i know i would have. Puff!

[jumpseat]

A fun fly-by. Chill out boys and girls.

Can I do the next one???

[Best Rate]

Jolly good salute chaps, :D

I only wish that I could have been onboard or at least spectating from the ground... :ok:

An excess of Tall Poppie Syndrome prevails around here... :=

BR

[zulapels]

Well done chaps !

This CP is one of the very few I respect on the 3rd floor.
100% respect from one of your boys..

[HIGH n MIGHTY]

Now THIS is some stupid low flying

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xRVIo9Uipo&feature=related

[azamat69]

Hey Guys,

Heard today by a manager, that the CP has been slapped on the back of the hands, but as the CEO was on the flightdeck having a jolly good time, he has been applauded by those higher up.

However, i have heard that the guy in the right hand seat has been basically given his marching orders by Kim Jong Phil. His CX ID has been suspended so he cant even come into Cx City...

Having done air displays in my previous life, this low and slow stunt was stupid and it just sends the wrong message to all the younger pilots coming up through the ranks. If the CP is doing this sort of stuff, where does it end? It also worries me that if the CAD gets to see this, what then?

I am all for airshows and having a great time, but it all has its place. Keep it safe everyone and have fun:))

[bunkmaker]

WANKERS!!! all you who think this was a 'stupid stunt' are the same ones who have taken ALL THE FUN OUT OF FLYING and why i wonder why i'm still a pilot. get a grip!

[Glass Half Empty]

Perhaps NR could settle this once and for all in his weekly news letter that it was all OK, practised, authorized, hunky dory! End of thread.

[ACMS]

I know it was the 777 CP in the LHS, but why suspend RM in the right seat?
He was not in command.

This piece of info must be wrong?

[Team America]

Have to agree 100% with bunkmaker, any pilot who doesn't think that flyby was an awesome piece of aviation should give up flying and become a lawyer, so you can go around and be the fun police for the rest of your days.

Get a life.

[Fenwicksgirl]

Both highly respected pilots from the 777 fleet. The CP although a bit of a snake in the grass has made sure our fleet has not seen the lows of the French fleet.
However, in light of company morale and as mentioned before, the fact that they are responsible for the setting of the most stringent of SOPs for us and constantly rebuke us for the slightest of errors, well it is no wonder that they are getting this kind of response.
Those who say people bagging this are taking the fun out of flying, well the CP is very resposnible for taking the fun out of our flying on a day to day basis. You cant set those rules and then do your own thing, "You Tube" is watching!!!!

[cpdude]

It was a cool pass but...very dumb!

[HKJunkie]

Quote: "but why suspend RM in the right seat"?

Latest we heard from CX 3/F was that both have been taken off flying pending "hearings".
The right seat guy has not been given his marching orders etc, etc.

Fenswicksgirl, What "lows" of the French fleet? Their CP is highly respected too.

Overall cx flyer has it right

[willnotcomply]

"Do as I say, not as I do". Is'nt that the CX way? The hypocrisy has people justifiably incensed, probably more than the flyby per se.

[monster330]

Is it true that the CX 777 Chief Pilot has been sacked? What about the other pilot :confused:

[Cpt. Underpants]

The title of your thread is deliberately misleading, sensationalist and inflammatory. If it's conjecture, then phrase it that way. Grrr.

[187nj]

Sacked for what?

[tyro330]

The threads above contain very interesting and polarized views.
For those that thought it was OK perhaps you should ask yourself how much lower would have been too low?
How accurately can you fly, straight and level 25ft +/- 5 ft, 10ft how much?
What are the flight control laws doing exactly at 24ft? ie direct law, flare law, ground law,thrust management modes. (PS not being exactly sure is unlikely to impress a board of enquiry).
Would you have wanted your wife, child or girl friend on board?
If you still think this was a good idea perhaps you should have a think about your own attitude to risk management.

[luvmuhud]

After watching the video, and assuming the flypast was unbriefed and not fully conveyed to the other flight crew, I'm with the 'that was pretty poor' crowd.

It's funny how different the Cathay safety culture is from the RAAF.....in the recent past, Cathay captains have lost their command for inadvertent errors, yet this seemingly unbriefed and deliberate example of poor airmanship is 'unpunished' by the Cathay system.

In the RAAF, the reverse occurs....the inadvertent errors are generally debriefed, disseminated, and lessons are learnt with no resulting 'discipline', and the (very rare) deliberate breaking of rules is met with loss of category etc.

I guess it's a 'generational' thing, but I believe Cathay still has a way to go before they'll approach a true 'just' safety culture.

[junior_man]

is this related to a flyby in seattle??

[Jack57]

Moderator - Is this thread not worth a delete?

[Fenwicksgirl]

D+G meeting was yesterday....any news?????

[N1 Vibes]

Suggest that monster330 and tyro330 (see other KPF thread) are one and the same person.

Suggest also that this person has a large wooden paddle and is not afraid to use it.

Moderator - tend to agree with prev comment.....

[19weeler]

What does PPRUNE stand for??????????

Lighten up!!

[HeavyWrenchFlyer]

How dumb!! There's cx for you, a whole a lot of barking about SOPs to the point of circus atmosphere 'anality' and then a parallel atmosphere of circus atmosphere 'anything goes' whenever it suits whoever at the moment. The basic meaning of standardization is lost here. The basic reason why SOPs are important is lost here. They treat it as if it's just for show around here, keeping up appearances and not much more. It starts with a highly non-standard and very inefficient training product (which they know about and are trying to fix thankfully) and it goes surprisingly far.

No I don't think the flyby was that dangerous, and making a low approach or low pass is perfectly fine as long as you have tower's approval as far as the FAA is concerned. Ref. AIM 4-3-12

The most often spoken words before accidents are "WATCH THIS" which is obviously spoken loudly just before putting on shows like this. In an airline operation environment putting on a show is a very stupid thing and it destroys years of effort put into SOPs which are the corner stone of each airline's safety record.

I'm well aware of the absolute ignorance that exists among my colleagues (Industry wide) about aviation accident causes. Not too many learn from others' mistakes by reading official accident reports. Each organization plays the crucial role in achieving, establishing and maintaining a high level of safety... it cannot be left to each individual to set their own, that's been proven to be disasterous for the airlines and military just the same.

There's nothing wrong with pushing the envelope, but it has to be done in an organised manner with prior planning and appropriate training. A line pilot or one who has made it to management level gets no training or knowledge at any point of his/her career which would qualify him/her as a test pilot.

The whole system depends on leading by examples or making examples of people.

[Mr. Bloggs]

Well done chaps !

This CP is one of the very few I respect on the 3rd floor.
100% respect from one of your boys..

Oxymoron comes to mind.:ok:

You must be new or firmly inserted training wannabe.:=

Of course the F/O is to blame; he/she should not have allowed the 777 Chief Pilot to do this. He/She should be lashed.:}:E I suppose his/her upgrade is in jeopardy. :ugh:I am sure the F/O will suffer some sort of consequences, it’s the CX way.:{

A CX Captain will not take the fall if he can blame it on the First Officer, CP included. It’s the CX way.:D:sad:

[bellcrank88]

OK, change the title of the thread to 777 CP Should be Sacked!

In my opinion that was dangerous.

[FlexibleResponse]

If fully briefed and practised in the sim with failure seniaros considered, this flypast can be conducted in a very safe manner. I would say a three-engine ferry would have much lower margins of safety.

Pilots suspended?

If the CEO of CX was onboard, why doesn't he take the can for failing to prevent the Captain from making the pass? Where does the buck stop on this one?

What about the long-long list of previous delivery flight flypasts? Are they going to suspend all those pilots as well?

[DexyDogg]

No, he shouldn't be sacked. They (CX) have brainwashed you, haven't they....

He should be help accountable to the FAA/CAD Regs for his stunt, punished appropriately.

His past performance should be taking into account. I am not saying it wasn't sporty, but this whole 'lets $#*@ sack him' is getting a little old...

Honestly...

[junior_man]

If he had clearance from the tower, the FAA could care less. There isn't anything illegal about the flyby.

[luvmuhud]

FlexibleResponse,

Quite obviously, the buck stops with the Captain of the aircraft (as always). A Swire business man could be talked into believing anything was safe, as he has no relevant experience, training or judgment to refer to.

I don't believe the issue is whether the flypast was safe or not....although one could argue that the reported speed was considerable less than ideal, and also noting that the chance of birdstrike increases exponentially with decreased altitude. I believe the issue is more one of airmanship example, adherence to SOP and corporate image.

But let's face it...the flypast video is impressive!

lmh

[Sleeve_of_Wizard]

Does somebody have a link to the flyby that works????

[oldsmithy]

Go to youtube in the search menu type in cx seattle. You will get the star studed movie.

[Hockeystick]

It is now blocked on Youtube, anyone have this video?

[oldsmithy]

That is not very sporting then from the old chaps on the upper levels. I guess that means, this was not one of their finer moments in avaition/airline business///////////////////////////////////////////:\:\:\:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

[Harbour Dweller]

Seems not everyone was impressed.

The Flypast video has been removed from Youtube.

[jumpseat]

:mad:




If it's not on You Tube, it never happened.

[N1 Vibes]

Pictures around Tyler Towers also being 'politely removed'......:oh:

[azamat69]

The guy in the right hand seat foor the flyby was a very senior base training captain on the 777 who is very well respected. Apparently on the CVR he was heard repeating.."up,up,up"....

Latest rumour is that both are getting dismissed.....

[Liam Gallagher]

I'm not a 777 pilot... but...... they accessed the CVR....????

Did they send it to the NTSB or Farnborough for analysis (surprised the tape was long enough) or does the 777 download everything said on the FD as an MP3 via acars????

[N1 Vibes]

The local journalists can get anything read here in HKG!:}

[backspace]

Rumour I hear is that the CEO was the one that complained.

[ALPHA FLOOR]

I dont want to speculate as to what or how but something is happening. Both the CP and his R/H seat have had roster changes. CP is on sick leave and the R/H seat "O"'s.........

Where there is smoke there is always a fire!

What will NR say in his weekly propaganda message if anything?

[FlexibleResponse]

luvmuhud
A Swire business man could be talked into believing anything was safe, as he has no relevant experience, training or judgment to refer to.

Hmmm...How ironic!

A Swire businessman as described is exactly who CX employs as their Director of Flight Operations!

[Busbert]

It was a very fine moment. A smidgen off the deck with gear up.

Guess the CP is an Old Bold Pilot.

[cxflyer]

The DFO now has a very important decision to make as to how to handle those involved. To put aside the hyperbol (it was great or hang em high) for a minute it is worth reviewing how these types of things have been handled in the past.
It was only a year or so ago that a new frieghter capt was doing an approach into JFK. One that by all acounts was well briefed and prepared for, when a last min change to a runway with a poorly indicated offset loc very nearly caused an accident. Understandbly the company had to review this incident and in the end removed this person from command, while noting that there was in fact a problem with the way the chart was presented, and that ATC played a role with the numerous runway changes. We all know it was an honest mistake, serious but honest, and that given the correct circumstances any one of us could have been there. None the less, this capt suffered the consequesnces of his actions as in the flight deck the buck stops with him.

Compare that incident with the flyby which was a very low pass, with pax onboard putting the airframe, its occupants and the companies reputation at stake for no usefull purpose. Add to that that those allegedly invovled are expected to uphold the companies operating procedures and standards and sadly there can be only one result that is consistant with companies goal of "saftey first". As unpleasant as it may be, those involved have to answer for their actions.

[Glass Half Empty]

do unto them as we would be so judged - sack them all.

[Westcoastcapt]

Gents,

I agree wholeheartedly with CXflyers comment. That poor chap lost his command by missing something, the offset localizer, that could have happened to anyone.

Yet, this incident is a blatent serious error in judgement that could have had serious consequences. And it was obviously planned. Let's be honest, if any line pilot had done something remotely similar they would be fired with great fanfare and without hesitation. They fired some 49'ers for a lot less.

How CX management handles this kerfuffle will haunt them well into the future. No doubt, some disenfranchised pilot will refer to the outcome of this incident, if they find themselves dismissed for something lesser. The fact that management tried to cover the incident is going to cause them considerable grief anyways.

Love it!!

[SOUTHPAC]

I just hope this guy gets treated with the same disrespect, indignation and arrogance as he showed whilst conducting a friends D & G a couple of years back.

Remember he was also on the star chamber so dont feel any pity for him

[cxflyer]

What goes around comes around. Isn't pride (ego) one of the seven deadly sins?

[oldsmithy]

He might be old and BALD but not very bold.....................

[Mr. Bloggs]

Dexy, haven’t been around much have you?:bored:

Firing, terminations are the Cathay Pacific way of dealing with stuff like this.:confused::ugh:

Christ, if you throw peanuts you get fired.:{

What goes around comes around.:ok:

[oldsmithy]

Me say it was a very brave demonstration. Me think he may have give himself some type of retraining. 10 sectors or something similiar.:=:=

He was too high for a flyby. You could barely see the aircraft or hear the people cheer. 10 ft lower would have been much better.

I am very suprised CX where able to pull the videos from youtube. I wonder how much that cost.

Cheers, Smithy:=:=:=

[Stagecoach Driver]

I have just been informed that the Capt has been asked to submit his resignation and the FO (another check capt) has been returned to The Line for 6 months.

[oldsmithy]

Almost like 10 sectors of line training.

[Harbour Dweller]

Stagecoach Driver,

I have just been informed that the Capt has been asked to submit his resignation and the FO (another check capt) has been returned to The Line for 6 months.

Is that resignation from the Company full stop or just from the role of B777 CP?

[N1 Vibes]

"."

No Comment

[Nullaman]

Photos also on Someones weekly update - Removed though now.

Still on the net - just need to know where to look for 'em :}

[Nullaman]

Read Groupwise

[Bograt]

Edit: paste from NTC deleted after due deliberation - we've all read it anyway I guess...

[ACMS]

A bit harsh I think.:sad:

Two weeks ago NR thought it a great flypast and included 2 photos in the Friday report, now they sack the CP.:D

A sad day for the 777 fleet.:sad:


I'll bet Kim Jong Phil did the honors, and probably loved doing it too.:=

[FlexibleResponse]

Let's hope they pay off the PF enough compensation along with his termination so he isn't tempted to exercise the legal avenues of appeal.

Now, that could open up a real can of worms...

[Harbour Dweller]

For his circus stunt flyby at least Maverick was promised a job flying Cargo planes full of rubber dogsh@t out of Hong Kong.

It seems no such luck for our former B777 CP.

[Fr8t M8te]

[QUOTE]For his circus stunt flyby at least Maverick was promised a job flying Cargo planes full of rubber dogsh@t out of Hong Kong.

It seems no such luck for our former B777 CP.[/QUOTE

He probably was offered it but balked at the Ts & Cs :}

[Fr8t M8te]

For his circus stunt flyby at least Maverick was promised a job flying Cargo planes full of rubber dogsh@t out of Hong Kong.

It seems no such luck for our former B777 CP.




He probably was offered it but balked at the Ts & Cs :}

[filejw]

Nice place to work...?????

[crewsunite]

Harsh for a decent CP - thought he did not follow procedures :hmm: correctly (anyway we don't know all facts yet) etc..

So in media & public light & setting an exsample etc Gone..

On that point why not sack NR & PW since they are up to no good in contributions to maximise the growth of this airline for our & shareholders interests.

So many lost opportunities so little time..

Life sucks .. Where is my top train set. :{

[TruBlu351]

That's a bummer.

Bit faster and a bit higher still looks more spec. Those huge 777 donks would have sounded great at full song.

Few Kiwi cowboys...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQ2FCiQfLu0

[BillytheKid]

Are you kidding me!?! He was sacked for a flyby?!? Tell me there was something else to this story. Because if that is the only reason....

[aislinn]

Now thats a GOOD fly-by. Clean and hot. As the Baron said "speed and altitude are your friend".

[bellcrank88]

:hmm: Does anyone have a link to the video? It seems to have disappeared from youtube.

[oldsmithy]

The youtube video has been removed. Must have cost a pretty penny for CX to do that...............:=

[fernytickles]

Whoever posted the clip must still have it, surely?

[TruBlu351]

Check yout temp internet files and use a flash player to view it

[oldsmithy]

I have a photo of the fly past. Not sure how to copy it to pprune though

[F_one]

Who was PF and who was PM? Sounds to me that the junior pilot got the shaft....again:uhoh:

[Cpt. Underpants]

Bograt

Just playing the devil's advocate here:

Whilst I realise there is an intense dislike of all things managerial in CX, I suggest that the actual contents of an NTC or Newsletter are NOT public domain.

By publishing this excerpt, you are placing further company comms of this nature in jeopardy and (I would remind you) there was a company notice to all staff about distribution of sensitive material and the consequences of doing so.

If I were you, I would edit the contents PDQ. Just a suggestion, flame away.

[fire wall]

Bograt, I agree with undies. The NTC is not for public disemination. I advise you to get rid of it before the seniority #'s need adjusting a second time this week.

[geh065]

Very harsh indeed and just an excuse to get rid of him I think. All crew are now reminded not to do impromptu flybys. Was this really such a problem amongst the ranks that the CP needed to be made an example of? I do not think so.

[backspace]

Maybe right about the punishment but I wouldn't be surprised to see CAD cancel his licence! Unfortunately this is all out in public and anyone not seen to take the 'right' course of action may find themselves in the thick of it.

That said this has been done on every delivery flight, apparently, so will the @#$t flow down the line or not?

[Fenwicksgirl]

As much as my sympathies go out to the CP, i still cant believe he was that stupid to take it so low!! In this world of corporate saftey and considering he would be one of the most un-current pilots at CX (as all management pilots are, lets face it, how many times have you flown with them and were a bit shocked at their SOPs! Nothing against their abilities, just a fact of the nature of their work), not a great idea.
Dont think that CX really were happy to fire him. He has a very good reputation amongst them for his work over the years on the 777, well respected on the fleet, but this all counts for naught in the light of what he had done.
We all love a fly by, but......

[828a]

Considering Cathay Pacific management have decided to charge this commander with unwarranted barratry then every company pilot (or those so called) should hang his head in shame. It seems memories are short and some need to be reminded that Cathay is what it is because of such ethos as displayed by this partiular pilot.

828a

[HotDog]

That said this has been done on every delivery flight, apparently, so will the @#$t flow down the line or not?

The only reason disciplinary action has been taken because the flypast was made public via Youtube. I realise this has placed the company between a rock and a hard place but I feel the punishment has been too harsh.:sad:

[Dragon69]

Considering Cathay Pacific management have decided to charge this commander with unwarranted barratry then every company pilot (or those so called) should hang his head in shame. It seems memories are short and some need to be reminded that Cathay is what it is because of such ethos as displayed by this partiular pilot

Oh yeah I almost forgot, Cathay invented airline flying...thanks for the reminder!

[Mr. Bloggs]

These decisions are subject to two levels of appeal.


When did we start adhering to the D & G procedure?:eek:

My prediction is that he will win the last level of appeal and honorably retire. :ouch:Watch this space.

He was part of the Star Chamber; hang them all!:ok::ok:

What, you mean Cathay Pacific Airways didn’t invent Flying!:=

[Jack57]

Gee PEK

Not sure - Is it you gaiman??

[volarecantare]

Thoughts go out to him and his family.
A sober reminder to us that we are only judged by our last flight in this career. What a sad bit of news.

[Dragon69]

Thoughts go out to him and his family.
A sober reminder to us that we are only judged by our last flight in this career. What a sad bit of news.


No you're wrong! He will also be judged for his past action, mainly being a member of the Star Chamber, so F^ck Him!

Sad??? Great bit of news from Cathay in a long long time :ok:

I Hope your thoughts are with the 49ers too!

[volarecantare]

Sorry D69, I don't do that nasty attitude to anyone. Nor do I like to gloat in anyones misery.

I stand by what I say for him and his family!

The attitude you express makes you no different to ones you criticize.

I'm sure he may also be thinking about the 49ers now with a different perspective.

In every situation regardless of opinion there are different perspectives.

[4 driver]

I tend to agree with Bloggs....the company may give him an honourable way out.
If not....does he lose his P-fund like the 49'ers did !

[oriental flyer]

Was the flyby a mistake ? Yes
but how many of us have never made a foolish decision before,? taken a corner a little too fast or generally done something that we later regretted?
20 20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, if given the opportunity to go back in time I'm sure the outcome would be very different.

Whilst I sympathize with the DFO being placed in a difficult position regarding this incident. I agree with all those who think that the penalty is way too harsh . He is a wonderful human being and commanded a great deal of respect amongst the troops. From my perspective he will be sorely missed and a great loss to the company. I can only wish him all the best in whatever endeavor he choses in the future.

[hongkongpilot]

He has been on extension already.

[Dragon69]

Are people suffering from Stockholm Syndrome :confused::confused::confused: What after years of abuse, fear, and intimidation all of sudden one of these w$%kers gets a taste of his own medicine and he becomes a "wonderful human being" :\:\.

[akerosid]

Here's 'Papa Fox on its low flypast ...

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/a/0108/bkpf_300108paetd3.jpg

[Cavitasian]

Watched this stuff for years without saying anything but finally got moved to go 'into print' by Dragon69. I'm with you 'Volare'! You would appear to have a very caring nature. If you're not already, have you thought about C+T? As I understand things, the initial 'P' in PPRuNe stands for 'Professional'. A lot of these postings relating to, what might be described as, an unfortunate error of judgment on a certain individual's behalf are sadly lacking in anything like deserving as having come from the pen of so-called 'Professionals'.

[Captain Dart]

This individual participated in the firing of 50 of his fellow pilots early this decade. At least he got a D&G Procedure.

He would have been the first to fail any pilot on a check ride for deliberately breaking SOP, and after probably two decades + of A scale salary plus C & T and Management allowances I'm sure 'he and his family' do not need 'thoughts'.

[greencandreaming]

I just hope the Vicar doesn't replace him , I don't want to have to do a prayer
every time i sign on ,

[markontop]

Totally agree with D69 here. Errors of judgement come on please. The CP planned this fly by and others for weeks in the calm sober atmosphere on the 3rd floor. Needless to say, other senior managers were aware and did nothing until the adverse publicity courtesy of youtube and PPRUNE. Even after the event no regrets until the fit hit the shan. These feelings of pity by some are not much different to "please help the company out" etc. Cathay is a corporation not one individual. These cowboy events sink airlines. I notice as others have mentioned how the lack of due process has not been followed in other such so called "errors of judgements".

[cpdude]

The real problem is the hypocrisy of the event. It was essentially gloated by most if not all of the managers including NR himself. Even though the little boy in each of us was saying "really cool flyby" the mature seasoned pilot was saying "it went too far".

So the dilemma begins...armed with indisputable evidence, the entire aviation community was able to judge for themselves and the verdict came in against the perpetrator.

It really doesn't matter who did it. Good guy, bad guy, manager or not. It was deemed to be of poor judgment.

So, does CX remove him from his position and send him to the line for a period of time? What about that judgment part which was deemed to be poor? Should he then not be demoted to F/O like the Captain of the JFK incident? Is there reason to retain a pilot that may be demoted who is already on extension and would this not set precedence for F/O's who may want to be extended.

No, the easiest solution is termination and that is always a sad time for many when a colleague is terminated...regardless of the situation.

Like any accident investigation, there are always several factors that create the setting for the incident. Previous flyby's and discussions of better ones all had a part in this incident and no one along the way ever said enough is enough this is going too far! Well, now the entire aviation community has said it and CX has mud on thier face. :(

[CRWCRW]

Cathay Pacific sends pilot packing over Top Gun swoop Barclay Crawford
Updated on Feb 24, 2008 Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.
But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.
It cost Captain Wilkinson his job. An airline spokeswoman confirmed the sacking yesterday and a six-month suspension from training duties for another, unidentified, pilot at a disciplinary hearing last week.
The hearing found the two in breach of company guidelines, which prohibit fly-bys without the required clearance.
Both have appealed against the decisions.
The plane was unmistakable: it had "Asia's World City" written in large letters on the body, which was also painted with the airline's trademark green logo and a dragon.


Since the fly-by, video and photographs have appeared on the internet of the flight, with other pilots and plane-spotters posting their opinions of Captain Wilkinson's daredevil stunt.
Most praised the quality of the fly-by, but there were critics.
One commented: "I love a good fly-by, like the rest of us ... but I can't say I think that one was too clever. A bit low and slow.
"Glad they didn't have an engine failure then."

One pilot told the Sunday Morning Post that the pilot must have had a rush of blood to have taken the plane to only 10 metres or less above the runway.
"Everyone's seen the pictures, and to me, it does look a bit dangerous," he said.

The spokeswoman said an internal investigation, including the collection of flight data and interviews with the crew involved, was under way.
Cathay Pacific had told the Civil Aviation Department to expect a report once the investigation was finished.
The airline had a well-established approval process for fly-bys and a number had been conducted in the past as display flights at air shows with proper approval in place, the spokeswoman said.
"The pilot in command of the flight was satisfied that the fly-by was not dangerous," she said.
"He was disciplined for not seeking or obtaining company approval for the manoeuvre."
Following the incident, Cathay Pacific has issued a notice to all cockpit crew reminding them of the company's policy on fly-bys.
Captain Wilkinson declined to comment last night.

[Major-Domo]

It appears the "night of the long knives" has struck again .
Overflys on delivery flights have been done by CX for many years. What makes this one different? I suspect its just another case of rabies at management level, perhaps a vain effort to look balanced in their choice of victim. If this is how they treat one of their CP's the implications should be obvious to all.

[geh065]

I just hope the Vicar doesn't replace him , I don't want to have to do a prayer
every time i sign on ,

Apparently it will indeed be him.

[Captain Peacock]

Onya Jack57 and N1_Vibes :rolleyes:

"Oh dear, this thread should be removed" (Said in a toffee English accent)

Nice one. :D

Another PPRUNE winning thread! :ok:

[ZAGORFLY]

is in the South ChIna MOrning Paper today...

Cathay Pacific sends pilot packing over Top Gun swoop


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Barclay Crawford
Updated on Feb 24, 2008


Flying a brand new Boeing 777-300ER on her maiden voyage from Boeing's Everett, Washington, plant to Hong Kong was obviously not enough of a thrill for Captain Ian Wilkinson.
So shortly after takeoff he turned the sixth purchase of the airline's new fleet around and swooped back to the ground to make a Top Gun-style, low-level fly-by of the Boeing factory.

But while the manoeuvre on January 30, only metres from the runway, might have wowed onlookers, senior Cathay Pacific figures - including chairman Christopher Pratt - aboard the flight were far from impressed.

[SMOC]

Looks like he can go to UPS!

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=82AHHrN_N8E&feature=related

Some nice pics of the delivery here http://blog.seattle-deliveries.com/2008/01/cathay-777-b-kpf-delivery.html seeing the vids no longer around! (How did CX manage that?).

Under no circumstances should you submit to CX's request to have these photos removed. This is a blog about the activities at PAE & BFI, not a CX PR campaign.

[Long Bay Mauler]

I guess he screwed up this much.....................

And he won't be flying a cargo plane full of rubber dog-sh1t out of Hong Kong then.........................:O

[ACMS]

I still can't believe whats happened, it's really sad that anyones career should come to a screeching holt this way.

If we have got HC as the CP on the 777 then god help us, because he ain't done us any favours.

The Electronic Flight bag ( EFB ) will become an Electronic Flight Bible.

I still don't believe what's happened. IW, you goose.:sad:

[volarecantare]

CPDUDE, nice to see a well thought out overview of the situation covering many of the nuances. Sometimes reading some of the puerile and rat mentality on these sites and hearing the HTFU attitude by some individuals on line and behind the safety of their beer courage (who I'm afraid to say always belies their own scared little inner boys who are quick to rat pack bully any individual who they see as vulnerably exposed).
The relatively new effect of internet and instant wide spread communications on us as professionals where at any time our lapses in judgement can be viewed and gloated on by sad to say even our own colleagues adds another dimension to our already long rope to hang ourselves profession.
A large contributing factor to the result of this incident was the willingness of pilots here and elsewhere to showcase this on the web. Then bringing up old baggage and witch hunt tendencies call for blood. So well done lads you got your blood. Does it taste as sweet as you hoped? Does it ease your deep seated bitterness and hatred.

I was talking to a consultant friend of mine regarding this incident and he mentioned the affinity many doctors have towards the pilots regarding job responsibility and the effects of being paid to suppress natural emotions. One thing he said though was there has always been an ethos of support among doctors and an identification with those who make errors of judgment. This is sadly lacking in our profession among certain individuals. Lets just hope that it doesn't take you to be at the controls of an incident for you to realize the impact your low minded attacks have when you experience it yourself.

This site anonymous as it is offers many the opportunity to express and vent their anger, often hurting others. Its a pity we do not a more healthy and supportive environment in our professional lives that we could feel safe enough to discuss our feelings and fears as they arise with our colleagues without the risk of ridicule and being told to HTFU. (an apparently well known catch phrase "arising" from a certain "comedy" character which is a worrying insight in to what some think is funny).

Maybe its time for the silent majority who do not have the stomach to engage in the hyperbolic rantings of a few to let their voice be heard and show that there are indeed some pilots who have a healthy well rounded psyche.

There has always been the talk of the "Them v's us metality regarding the "evil" managemt" that certainly needs to improve for both the future success of the company and for our own careers.

What is of greater concern though is the problems within our own pilot body which has been too long tolerated of the nasty and bullish attitude some show to their colleagues, carrying historical and personal baggage into work with them every day. We hold power over each others careers as much as the company does, and when some are in either Managerial , C+T, elected union reps, national majority, buddy buddy drinking groups, more damage has been cause by misuse of those positions of power to individuals than the company has ever caused.

What could be called an error of judgment on behalf if this individual could also been seen as a career suicide. Watching it , it awakened something deep within which sadly to say I had lost. I was there in the seat myself, maybe a smile on my face a feeling of being alive and humming a bit of Dean Martin. I can see someone end his own career with the exhilaration and energy most of us started with, that joy of flying that passion and energy the pride and courage. Sadly it is has been lost to many. He has paid the price, leave him be lads
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.

[Arfur Dent]

NR described the fly by as "spectacular". He posted pictures of it in his weekly newsletter. He thought it was great. Where is our gallant leader now???
How absolutely pathetic that we now have 'Management by Pprune and Youtube'.
One minute you think something is spectacular and the next you condone the sacking of the pilot. Come on NR. Resign with a bit of honour or at least let us know how something that was so 'spectacular' is now a career-ending 'stunt'.
Sais one hell of a lot about leadership eh??

[volarecantare]

PS HC, if you are reading this, your mission should choose to accept it is to save the SOUL of flying.......;)

[volarecantare]

What a pity Barclay has missed out on the real story behind this, instead mere listing of events with a cheap puller mention on Top Gun. A child could have written that! What ever happened to good old journalistic expression?

[Mr. Bloggs]

Volarecantare, I seem to disagree on some of your statements.

Then bringing up old baggage and witch hunt tendencies call for blood. So well done lads you got your blood. Does it taste as sweet as you hoped? Does it ease your deep seated bitterness and hatred.

Yes it is even sweeter than I hoped. Let’s hope we see the day NR gets his from his peers. That will be even sweeter. If his was not involved in the Star Chamber, I may have a different opinion.

I was talking to a consultant friend of mine regarding this incident and he mentioned the affinity many doctors have towards the pilots regarding job responsibility and the effects of being paid to suppress natural emotions. One thing he said though was there has always been an ethos of support among doctors and an identification with those who make errors of judgment. This is sadly lacking in our profession among certain individuals. Lets just hope that it doesn't take you to be at the controls of an incident for you to realize the impact your low minded attacks have when you experience it yourself.

So tell me why a Senior Captain runs to Management and rats out a First or Second Officer over something that can be very opinionated. It is even seen on ERAS reports.

This site anonymous as it is offers many the opportunity to express and vent their anger, often hurting others. Its a pity we do not a more healthy and supportive environment in our professional lives that we could feel safe enough to discuss our feelings and fears as they arise with our colleagues without the risk of ridicule and being told to HTFU. (an apparently well known catch phrase "arising" from a certain "comedy" character which is a worrying insight in to what some think is funny).

We hide behind anonymity because if we spoke our mind, NR does not have a problem hurting others. Think back!

Maybe its time for the silent majority who do not have the stomach to engage in the hyperbolic rantings of a few to let their voice be heard and show that there are indeed some pilots who have a healthy well rounded psyche.

Go ahead start another union maybe? Call it the Well Rounded Psyche or WRP union. Maybe NR as president. Yes I know, call it Check and Training.

There has always been the talk of the "Them v's us metality regarding the "evil" managemt" that certainly needs to improve for both the future success of the company and for our own careers.

Are you actually saying management is not evil? Tell that to the 49er whom NR tried to get evicted from his home. Wow, where have you been?

What is of greater concern though is the problems within our own pilot body which has been too long tolerated of the nasty and bullish attitude some show to their colleagues, carrying historical and personal baggage into work with them every day. We hold power over each others careers as much as the company does, and when some are in either Managerial , C+T, elected union reps, national majority, buddy buddy drinking groups, more damage has been cause by misuse of those positions of power to individuals than the company has ever caused.

Tell this to MFL who has held back/destroyed careers. Are you telling me he is not a bully? Maybe you are his bully buddy. Heaps of bullying at CX, not just telling a fellow pilot not to work on his G day. How much time have you spent as an First Officer or lower at CX?

What could be called an error of judgment on behalf if this individual could also been seen as a career suicide. Watching it , it awakened something deep within which sadly to say I had lost. I was there in the seat myself, maybe a smile on my face a feeling of being alive and humming a bit of Dean Martin. I can see someone end his own career with the exhilaration and energy most of us started with, that joy of flying that passion and energy the pride and courage. Sadly it is has been lost to many. He has paid the price, leave him be lads
I still remember the good old days when we had dignity, camaraderie and self respect as a profession.


I think the peanut thrower had an error in judgment, but he lost his job. A real danger of getting a peanut in your eye, especially the salted ones. Much more dangerous than what the 777 CP did.

Dignity, camaraderie and self-respect as professions is a TWO WAY street. It was lost at CX well before I arrived. I had it when I came but seemed to have lost it in 1999 and 2001. My Seniors made sure of that.

[arse]

Now also on the Sydney Morning Herald website

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/boeing-pilot-sacked-for-top-gun-stunt/2008/02/24/1203788130049.html

[Tseung Kwan O]

So summing up all of the above.
Cathay is sh1t3 and IW is well out of it.

Good luck Ian, you lucky bugger!:ok:

[Dragon69]

VolareCantare,

By some of your comments I have a suspicion that you must be a CX manager, or not with CX at all! If you are with CX, then where have you been the past 14 years? One CX manager is sacked and you become quite vocal about the whole issue! Well why were you not so vocal about past and present injustices caused by CX managers? Where was your dignity, camarederie and self respect when a 20 + year serving ISM was sacked for merely taking a bottle of water from the airplane. Dignity, camarederie and self respect are not traits of a CX manager. If it were, they would not VOLUNTEER for that position. So please spare me the lovey dovey Dr Phil comments.

[amos2]

Having seen those pics I'm not surprised he got the boot!

How could you think otherwise?

[weido_salt]

Yes, he forgot something very important.

Aviation has fast become an occupation where you do and go where you are told. The pilots job really is to stop the thing crashing between dep and dest. I am sorry to say an "Airline pilot" is not much more than a robot these days. Computers can do our jobs.

Attempting a beat up is foolish in the extreme. It is just not worth it as recent events have proved. Who was he trying to impress? Certainly didn't impress me. If he needs to get his "rocks off" by trying to show how "good" he is, then may I suggest he do it in the simulator as that is the place to monkey around.

He also forgot another thing. The bigger you are, the harder you fall. Justice had to be shown to be done and was done it seems.

[mavrik1]

Best thing I have seen in a while, wish I was on board! Pretty gutsy move!
But he is cashing checks his ass can't pay for!
"Thats not your money its the shareholders money". They should put him on a freighter for a while flying rubber dog s#@! outer Hong Kong!

[volarecantare]

D69, your suspicion radar is rather faulty, simple answer is that I have only recently become interested or familiar with the whole internet world due to pressure from my far away located daughter, the birth of my grandson and the magic of skype....OK?

PPRUNE I have heard of for many years and decided to check it out when I heard about the recent event! Why maybe Ive been fantasizing about a spot of low flying myself lately and identified.. I don't know.... ask your Doctor Phil?I don't know your who he is but , but considering your obvious anger issues maybe you should ask for your money back and consider changing to another??
"Lovey Dovey" well I'm flattered its been a while....... but since when did a bit of love hurt anyone??

Bloggs, never once have I tried to defend or justify any of the history you cite. I have been appalled and gutted many times at some of the things I have seen. I was there for all of the above and more and have not got a short memory.

However you conveniently miss the whole point of my post. I am talking about the issues among the pilot body itself. How the very behavior we claim to abhor in our managers we feel we can level at our colleagues as it suits.

Please re read it and then get back to me if you wish!

Bloggs, how did you do that quote thing inserting my text?

You said ...Volarecantare, I seem to disagree on some of your statements.

Does this mean there is some of what I said that you do agree with then?

Ive no intentions is setting up another Union, however I would like to look at someone setting up some kind of a support group for pilots who can come for support without the risk of being threatened or laughed at by their own colleagues.

As regards the "evil" management point, actually what I'm saying is the very behavior you seem to hate in management I see leveled within the pilots body many many times. I have seen many a pilot have a knife stuck in his back should he not know the steps to march with the militia. Ive seen guys bullied on line and in the sim, in C+T in wanchai and in the union. Ive seen people loose their marriages and kids and sometimes their health because they could not cope with the pressures of command courses. Any form of weakness or vulnerability shown and they are scoffed at. I've seen people alienated blacklisted and abused for making decisions which were best for them families and their health....

Difficult to demand respect from Management when we show little respect for each other.

[mavrik1]

Good on the bloke for seeing his career out in style, his probably been dreaming of that maneuver for the last 3 months, yeah its stupid, but he's got something to talk about in his retirement now hasn't he! How many other's go out like this. its takes balls. Every pilot thats worked beside him should be proud for it! Its a pity it can not be kept internal like the olds days would have been.

[3rd Floor]

Great photos of the fly-by!

I say, enlarge some of the pics and hang them up on the walls of the 3rd floor!:ok:

[Busbert]

Every pilot thats worked beside him should be proud for it!So who was sitting in the RH seat?

I'm sure that he was pretty proud to land a 6 month suspension.

[volarecantare]

Ouch is that true?

[ZAGORFLY]

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Dragon69]

simple answer is that I have only recently become interested or familiar with the whole internet world

PPRUNE I have heard of for many years and decided to check it out when I heard about the recent event

You are completely and utterly full of it! Had a good laugh nonetheless :D

For your info!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phil_McGraw

[forget]

So who was sitting in the RH seat calling up, up, up (as heard on the CVR)?

That's one helluva CVR, flight time from Seattle to Honkers being what? :rolleyes:

[volarecantare]

Apologies I thought it was you own Doc you were referring to...

Still I wouldn't have taken a hard man like yourself to be an Oprah Winfrey fan ...go on admit it, your a bit of a softy yourself? ;)

[luvmuhud]

Zagorfly.......sorry mate, I had to read that post 6 times, and I still don't know what you are talking about.

Can you please use a web based tool such as Babelfish to translate that into English?

lmh

[AirwayBlocker]

Been looking for a video on the web.

I can't find a dang thing!!

Just how much influence does Cathay have?

I even did a search for "Cathay flyby" on flightinternational.com

You know what I got back.

Did you mean: cat hay flyby (http://www.flightglobal.com/Search/ZibbSearch.aspx?o=&sKeywords=cat hay arsehole&content=site&cat=&searchType=site&sortBy=date&filter=0#)
Your search for cathay flyby did not match any documents.


Not even a news story never mind a video.

Wierd.:confused:

[ZAGORFLY]

sorry to bother you mate.

[powerstall]

couldn't really confirm, but i think somebody posted it on youtube. don't know if it's still there... :confused:

[punkalouver]

Should he then not be demoted to F/O like the Captain of the JFK incident?

What happened in this incident?

[betaboy]

If it is true that CEO was "standing in the cockpit" at the time of this incident, as this blog says, is there not perhaps a more systemic safety problem here?

http://blog.seattle-deliveries.com/2008/01/cathay-777-b-kpf-delivery.html

Safety must run from the top down, right?

[willnotcomply]

Karma is a wonderful thing

[SAD]

IW is likely the only pilot on the 3rd floor who could have done that nice flypast, the rest............. Our DFO thinks he could have pulled it off oooopppss sorry he is not a pilot but he could have approved it strange world.

[geh065]

So, how about this delivery flight flyby? This one was ok but the latest one wasn't? Selective punishment? I know this one was higher but CX has already admitted the issue was not having permission and not the height of the flyby itself.

http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/a/1007/bkpc_301007paetd1.jpg

[Liembo]

Here's something close to a video of the event, I stitched together stills from my DSLR into a video:

"video" of B-KPF low flyby at Paine Field (http://www.flickr.com/photos/liem/2232482792/sizes/o/in/set-72157602301367183/)

[Andrej]

Hey all,

its interesting that CP went from hero to a zero, faster then I thought was possible. I think it is a shame that he was sacked, but the management has to 'ultimate' power....:*

Who are 49'ers? Are those the pilots that were let go couple of years ago and that's why there was a strike? Can somebody help out!:confused:

Thanks for your help!

Cheers
Andrej

[Ali Sadikin]

Willnotcomply...second that! With 2012 looming, more karmic stuff to come!:uhoh:

[rjmore]

If you want a low flyby, check out this vid at about the 34 second mark.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXyihqsNEUI

[fly123456]

another CP fly-by:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_dK5VOhKk8s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYfhC9ft_hk&feature=related

[Mr. Bloggs]

Volarecantare, I believe we should have the same ethos of doctors that you talk about but you should be talking to the management pilots/senior pilots and the check and trainers at Cathay Pacific. They will eat their young. I have seen this up close and had to remove some knives that were firmly inserted into my own back.:ouch::sad:

Leadership starts from the top down i.e. management pilots/senior pilot’s down/ check and trainers but there is absolutely none at Cathay Pacific but many are self-professed leaders. One must prove they are capable of destroying/hindering another pilots career in order to graduate through the ranks of Cathay Pacific Pilot Management. Something to be proud of.:ok::D

We have learned from our peers on how to treat fellow pilots. While many in Cathay Pacific state a no blame policy, they are the very same people to throw the rope over the limb when one of our colleagues has an error in judgment.:D:ok:

I don’t think this will change in the near future, only more casualties along the way.:sad::(

As for support, choose your friends wisely and a nice bottle of scotch doesn’t hurt.:E

This bloke was involved in the Star Chamber and received his just reward.:ok:

It’s the Cathay way.:ok:

As for quotes, there is a little quotation box to the right just above where you paste your post. Highlight the text and click on the quotation box.

[volarecantare]

Thanks Bloggs,

I hear what you are saying and I absolutely agree that leadership should come from the top down, also that fish rot from the head first and things have certainly become fairly rotten. Having said that there is also a form of leadership that can come from behind, this is something we can begin to do and is within our control.

It is difficult for us however to have influence on Management, one must recognize that we have become a very damaged and fractured group ourselves, thus making it easier forums to be taken advantage of. My point was that we have in some ways become as bad as management towards each other and I feel this is the biggest victory CX have had on us as a body.
his we do have influence over!

The other reason I'm sorry to say that we have found ourselves in this situation is that frankly our Unions have not had the skill to negotiate the dangerous waters of the corporate minds. We are pilots not negotiators and not business people as much has been lost by the albeit good will but naivete of our unions as has been done to us by management.

With the current 'market forces' we are in a stronger position than ever. With the integration challenges facing us regarding the KA takeover we should be thinking way out of the box. For example there is much talk about this Y system that seems to be favorably considered by the majority of both CX and KA. Why not join the unions on this, study the facts and figures and employ professional business legal strategists pr and get them to help us prepare a proposal and request a hearing with the Board of Directors and shareholders. If we can present a case that is win win and ultimately crew saving cost saving and moral saving, put figures on it and it proves to be financially wise then Management WILL be forced to implement it. his would certainly turn the tables. Madness is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
In a company that is responsible to shareholders if the managment can be proven to be damaging the company by their actions then they well be held accountable. we just need to learn to communicate our message in a language that is understood by the shareholders

Equally we need to begin to improve our own moral and standards of behavior, stop this them and us idea both within our pilot bodies and towards the company. It is our company, our careers and our livelihoods. There is so much damage and hatred in our pilot body and it is lashed out in all directions without anyone ever challenging it. Its up to us older guys who have a bit of experience under our belts to protect our colleagues from each other.

As to the C+T, it is one of THE worst environment of abuse. Shame and shame on all those who step into those responsibilities and then ruthless humiliate degrade and destroy the dignity and confidence of those under their influence....

A bit early for me for the old scotch but nice suggestion ;)

[judge.oversteer]

Commiserations Wilk.
Welcome to the Gang.
JO

[SMOC]

In the Sydney Morning Herald and the Australian how many other news papers did it make?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/travel/boeing-pilot-sacked-for-top-gun-stunt/2008/02/24/1203788130049.html

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23270510-12335,00.html

CX must be loving all this "good" press!

[makintw]

Torygraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/25/nplane125.xml

[N1 Vibes]

CX must be loving all this "good" press!

Let alone Boeing. Headline in Aussie paper and if I remember right the SCMP starts with:

"Boeing pilot...."

Obviously referring to a pilot from the Boeing fleet etc. But, first read/scan of the headline might suggest a Boeing employed pilot.

"Cathay pilot..."

would have been more accurate. God bless accurate headlines/reporting.

Brgd's

N1 Vibes

PS - who was it got the w!llies and sent the bugger down?:ouch:

[atv1urgoin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rarQELI_ieE

:ok:

[Panama Jack]

A sad ending to a career. The problem here was that probably this maneuver wasn't endlessly mused about by DP Davies in Handling the Big Jets, hence the heartburn at CX.

Perhaps not the best decision, but I wonder whether it really warranted the severity of the punishment.

[Canuckian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7hpVH1IAQM

Best thing out there. :rolleyes:

[ACMS]

So who the hell did that flyby in KPC? How come that was OK then?

NR please explain.

Wasn't it RD that did the KPC delivery? I think it was.


update:

It was the deputy CP on the 777 that did this flyby.

Sack him as well?

Double standards maybe?

[Traffic]

Never realised that the 'ROGER' in roger wilco was a verb...we learn something new every day.:yuk:

[aislinn]

You are very correct. Rumours have it that at least two previous fly-bys were conducted and are being investigated. This is not over by a long shot.:ugh:
PS Flight Intl has it now also:\

[oldshuck]

Nice to see censorship in operation, the clip has now been removed from Youtube!
I just wondered by whom ?

[ACMS]

Did the Airbus boys do any flybys on their delivery flights? What about the delivery of LAD? the 100th Aircraft, did they buzz the tower at Toulose ( sorry don't know how to spell it )

[Baywatcher]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=518448&in_page_id=1811

[tipsy2]

Gee, I'm so glad Boeing didn't do anything this rash during the first flight of the Dash 80 all those years ago. ;)

tipsy:ok:

[Buttie Box]

Volare

It's refreshing to have an oasis of eloquent expression amongst the passive aggression that our CX posts tend to descend into...or is that, into which our CX posts descend. I was never sure if one could finish a sentence with a prepo...whats-its-name.

However, there are a couple of issues you raised.

The first has been addressed by Mr Bloggs. I arrived around the time of the 49-ers with no experience of either unions or industrial unrest. Whilst I applaud your noble wish to set some form of example, I cannot help feeling some contentment that one of the people responsible for destroying the wellbeing of around 50 families has been hoisted by his own petard.

The second I have touched on before: there is no requirement for inspirational leadership in a business environment. This latter takes more time to explain than I have at present but, in summary, runs along the lines of when businesses began to replace experienced professionals in managerial positions with asset managers with the excuse of cutting costs, the requirement to lead fell by the wayside.

Add to that the lack of employment protection in Hong Kong and the completely illogical dictates of our present management, such as denying pay rises for 7 years with excuses like having to give everyone a pay rise, or having to cut costs whilst simultaneously awarding large individual bonuses, and very soon one has to find where one's own perspective leads them; or, as a friend of mine directs, "finds one's own space."

There are 2 clear sides to this thread: on one side there's the flypast, and the debate of whether or not we've moved on in aviation and such acts are no longer condoned, or if they are, properly authorised; the other is the treatment of an individual by a managerial system corroded by years of neglect and attempting to lead a group of experienced professionals for which they have shown a consistent lack of respect.

Whilst there is an underlying change in attitude by the third floor being welcomed around the bazaars, this attitude must be backed up by action in the form of financial and professional recognition. However, until such time as we can as a body move forward, I will not be shedding a tear for our fallen comrade who didn't have the integrity to show the same compassion for his own.

BB

[Brian Abraham]

One report doing the rounds.

His first officer on the flight Ray Middleton (who got suspended for six months) said the company officials toasted the flight with Wilkinson later and he believes nothing would have come of the whole thing if the video hadn't made it to YouTube. Airline officials said low fly-bys are allowed, but only if the crew asks first, which apparently didn't happen in this case.

[BusyB]

I wondered when the scum would hit the fan!:ugh:

[willnotcomply]

Any form of disciplinary action for RM is uncalled for IMO. What was he supposed to do, take control and assume command from IW? A lose, lose for RM. I have the utmost respect for RM, great aviator and a true gentleman. A scarce commodity in post millennium CX. Suspending him from C & T duties is only a loss for the company.

[volarecantare]

Looking at these Photos on the BBC and the Newsletter of the crew and Management toasting (in uniform) after the event and before the sacking is just too ironic to process! Surely one should call for the resignation of the CEO as well? I hope f/o RM is seeking legal advice because I believe he has a very good case against both the executives and sorry to say the Captain to say he was acting in good faith of fly by approval and seek damages for stress and loss of reputation. I would hope that he would be supported in that by the pilot body and his union.

As regards the post from Seafury, I truely hope I am misinterpreting this post as parading this man and woman's personal history over the internet. What is wrong with you?


Buttle Box, I very much enjoyed reading your post and I think it presents the same sentiments to this incident, the people involved and their history as many people feel however it is done in a dignified healthy and balanced fashion befitting a professional pilot. I would hope that IW can understand the perspective people must have on this vis a vis past issues in which he was involved. There is a certain poetic justice in some one finding themselves requiring the compassionate view which they may have lacked in the past. It is in consideration though of this fact that I do feel sorry for him and can only imagine how the weight of all of this lies heavily on his shoulders now, what a dreadful burden to carry. Maybe he will speak out on this and apologise to those who were hurt and destroyed by aid of his own actions in the past. However some of the vendictive posts here go beyond stating this fact and what instead we see is a lowereing of moral and humane standards of our colleagues which they fail to see make them no better than those actions they love to condemn.

On the point regarding there is no requirement for leadership in business Im afraid I have to slightly disagree. here certainly has been very little or no leadership, instead the harsh hand of dictatorship has been dealt breaking many peoples spirits and now it is clear it is infact damaging the financial accounts and future which has always been the "everything' to them.
The win at any cost attitude is now costing more than they can afford and the resist at any cost attitude of the pilots body likewise is damaging us too.

Only businesses that show vision and a holistic approach to realising this vision will survive in these very very uncertain economic times.

It only take one side to make a gesture. I have suggested what our side could do. his now goes beyond the business for me. I'm very sad to see the demise our our profession to the levels we have fallen in professionalism, dignity and respect. Here are some extracts....


Maybe we should all (Manage
ment and Unions and members) take some time out and read fable Animal Farm...it might hold up a mirror that would be uncomfortable to look at!

"Squealer: Do not imagine, comrades, that leadership is a pleasure. On the contrary, it is a deep and heavy responsibility. No one believes more firmly than Comrade Napoleon that all animals are equal. He would be only too happy to let you make your decisions for yourselves. But sometimes you might make the wrong decisions, comrades, and then where should we be?

"Ah, that is different!" said Boxer. "If Comrade Napoleon says it, it must be right."

But when Muriel reads the writing on the barn wall to Clover, interestingly, the words are, "No animal shall kill any other animal without cause."
ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.

"The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which."



Quattuor crura bona, duo crura mala

[iamlistening]

This is the longest that we have not heard from The Management. The salary CX will save with this sacking will surely increase his bonus yet we have heard nothing. Unless....... could it have been The Management who was sacked?

[willnotcomply]

The names are circulating throughout the international media. A little late for discretion. Maybe you are better suited to an amateur lit club, away from prune. BTW, "merrda taurorum animas conturbit". Is that your angle?

[willnotcomply]

I see you have edited your post.

[volarecantare]

:D
Thats certainly not my angle WNC...what I am saying is "Ducere Exemplo" "Duo cum faciunt idem, non est idem "

Yes that was edited when I saw the article in the BBC actually as a result of reading your first post at the top of this page! No cod trickery meant!

[Hiro Nakimura]

I feel sorry for Nick. When your professional expertise relates to how many monkeys you can have in an enclosure before monkey sh!t will be thrown around, its hard to understand the people that can fly machines slightly beyond your IQ. It must be hard for him to know where the right places are to cut costs. Luckily he has KJP to help out, and being a mathematician, he wouldn't make a mistake!

So poor Nick thought this was all great fun until his pet got 'Dexter' like tendencies and 'needed' to draw blood!

[RedLiner]

I think I agree with all here saying it was a bit too harsh. It just seems so strange that Cx. would fire (as opposed to a warning of some sort) someone who obviously is an excellent aviator with years of valuable experience over a technicality.

I'd be curious to know if their (Cx. Mngts.) hand was forced by someone on board or perhaps it was the media blowing it well out of proportion! Or was it more of an excuse to get rid of a very senior Captain?


RL

[greywings]

Well done, Ian. Sorry you got caught out by weak senior management who have previously turned a blind eye to the many low fly-by's done by CX on departure from Boeing.

(Involved in two of them myself).

I enjoyed being part of your recruitment, initial, then, command training, and know you for a sensible, competent aviator.

Good luck with your next career move.

Yours aye,

Greywings

[SOUTHPAC]

Redliner,

You obviously dont work for Cathay

[RedLiner]

Surely it can't be as bad as that! And I almost did take up a position with them -- should I be glad I declined the invitation?

[Oval3Holer]

All this hot air over another example of Cathay's hypocrisy...

[MidgetBoy]

Was the captain an A scaler?

[A. Le Rhone]

Karma

You cannot expect to be so awful to so many in domestic and professional contact for so long without having it backfire on you somehow.

Maybe this was merely the final straw. Perhaps severe on CX's part but what alternative was there? How the hoardes would have bleated hypocracy if something less was done.

Before you potentially consider suing for 'damage to reputation' etc perhaps a reassessment of how you treat others is in order.

Karma

[broadband circuit]

does anyone know how to download a video from YouTube???

[WTF...?]

Alright ladies & gents, step right up, here is 'the' video you are looking for. Seems a local Seattle news station got a copy & used to report the incident.
Yee Ha!!
www.king5.com/video/featured-index.html?nvid=221537

[volarecantare]

ALR/Karma, you may have misunderstood that reference was referring to the Co Pilot who it appears was the innocent caught in between he Chief and the clapping CEO. I reckon he has a good case regarding his belief that it was an authorised fly-by and his punishment therefore is unfair. They AOA should look into it for him.

[Captain Dart]

Is he a member of the AOA??

[mavrik1]

Nice paintwork! Looks good low!

[Night Watch]

You can also see another angle of the Vid here.....

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=00a_1204000744

[ALPHA FLOOR]

What size cheque is it going to take to get this liveleak video off the www?

[CXtreme]

What's all the hype about?? Bad publisity. It caused more of a story after they fired him. got very little comment on youtube. As soon as they turned it into a D & g it became big. Bunch of sw1ne5 don't know how to do damage control. As was crearly showed with the 49ers.

Lets hope NR is next

[Kitsune]

As the guys a 'star chamber' snake, couldn't happen to a nicer bloke...when is his tax audit?:*:*:*

[Major-Domo]

CXtreme ,
I could not agree more. These so called managers should have the brains to know that situations like this one are better forgotten about quickly and quietly with a resolve to prevent it happening again rather than have it all over the international press by sacking their Chief Pilot (what were they thinking?) Is this what Swires are expecting from them? Is this why they get their bonuses? I think not ! :=

[AAIGUY]

Thanks Live leak.. I now have a copy on my PC too.

I don't think CX is going to be able to keep it out of the public eye. Too many people have downloads.

[willnotcomply]

All over the Australian media (print and TV).

[azamat69]

http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/ver/251.7/popup/index.php?cl=6667437

Looks like Qantas are having a great day in Oz...who gave them the video? If anyone hasnt seen this, its the vid of the flyby...

[Frogman1484]

how can they say that the chairman did not know, when there is a photo in the UK paper with the chairman toasting the CP after landing in HOng Kong....cover up!!!!

[dessas]

I met Ian last year at the Aviator.
I can only say I was awed. Such a nice, decent and intelligent guy.
I am sure he perfectly new what he was doing.
As well as the the bloke sitting in the RHS.
Such a pity the whole thing was blown out of perspective by the press!!!
I guess these days one can't have a decent shag on the beach for fear of some jerk with a high-tech phone selling it after to the press as an amateur video.
And shame to CX for the stupid reaction. They put up for years with it and couldn't keep their !!!! together in front of the press.
I hope, Ian, you enjoyed it and you are smiling at all the suckers.
Good luck :ok:

[badairsucker]

how can they say that the chairman did not know, when there is a photo in the UK paper with the chairman toasting the CP after landing in HOng Kong....cover up!!!!

I thought the person circled in the picture which was published in the UK paper was in fact one of the F/Os (PH) for the delivery flight, not the chairman.

[viking avenger]

Back when CEO's and Pilot's could discuss things like gentlemen.

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/707_roll_video.htm

great to hear tex's take on what Mr. Allen said.

[Frogman1484]

There were 3 circles on the photo, Ian , The Fo and Mr Pratt

[mr Q]

The celebration photo is still viewable compliments of the good old :cool:Daily Mail at this url
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1811

[mr Q]

This one seems to work.... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/worldnews.html?in_article_id=518448&in_page_id=1811

[MidgetBoy]

That yahoo link said the captain was sacked from his half million dollar a year job. 777 Captains get paid that high? Even on A-scale?
And wasn't clearance given for the flyby?

[svengoren]

anyone know who actually conducted the D & G ?

[Spaz Modic]

:hmm: Every now and again, the grey matter has a meltdown, and even those who think their stools don't stink do something extraordinarily stupid. If it is true that, in this case, the perpetrator was responsible for the random sacking of 49 CX pilots just to show his power to the pilots' association, then he certainly deserves the fate which has befallen him. By the look of him, Mohammed (peace be upon him) (cough!) - might be welcoming him to paradise sooner than later. :yuk:

[volarecantare]

Thanks Trublu, post edited, apologies Oval!
I must have needed a couple of zzz's :ok:

[badairsucker]

There were 3 circles on the photo, Ian , The Fo and Mr Pratt

Incorrect, the circled guy at the back of the picture is in fact a 777F/O (aussie guy PH) not the chairman.

[Slapshot]

The "Infamous" Gimli Glider of Air Canada was retired to the bone yard a month or so ago and as a farewell the 767 did a fly-by. No one was "sacked"...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MHy6yy3Z00

[Cider30]

Well, now that it's on youtube you never know :}

[joebanana]

I always preferred this French Air Force flypast. 28' - that's for stupid english k - niggets, now go away or I shall taunt you some more!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi7y2yU4zIs

[VR-HFX]

Another one of Sir Adrian Swire's a/c doing a flyby...the way it should be done..by the late and great Ray Hanna:D

The commentary is also similar:}

http://www.airlinetv.net/search_result.php?search_id=spitfire&search_typ=search_videos&x=0&y=0