Relationship with students [Archive]

TheOddOne

18th February 2008, 21:13

What kind of relationship do you guys have with your students?
e.g. do you bebo/facebook together?

No, definitely not! I think you need to retain a certain professional detatchment from students, not quite like a doctor/patient perhaps but getting on that way. I've heard of driving instructors who regularly form romantic relationships with their pupils; I believe that there is no place for this in the flying environment (or probably in driving, either).

We invited student pilots to our Christmas bash and a few came along, but AKAIK it is all 'arm's length' stuff as regards getting matey with students. OK once they're qualified, I'd say.

TheOddOne

breakscrew

19th February 2008, 08:54

You keep it on a very professional and businesslike level. Students are not your friends, although you should be friendly towards them Remember, they are in your care, so do not do anything to jeopardise the relationship.

timzsta

19th February 2008, 14:20

Some of that seems a little backward to me. Romantic involvements no (well not until they are qualified). But to go as far as saying you can't become friends is a little far fetched. After all you do both share one common interest - flying! And it is likely that at least some of your students will have similar personalities to yourself.

As long as you brief, fly and debrief with them in a thorough and professional manner I don't see any problem with having a beer with them after flying or going to watch the football team you both support together is any great issue.

The student should feel that there is nothing he or she can't discuss with you and you both should enjoy flying with each other. If one of you isn't enjoying flying with the other there is a problem. Distancing yourself to much from the student can I think lead them thinking you are aloof and some sort of demi god or something. And remember you are not a better pilot than any of your students, just a little bit more experienced.

Monkeeeey

19th February 2008, 15:55

One instructor (not mine) defined the type of relationship he had with students as a Rappor that builds over time.

long final

19th February 2008, 18:54

Geez, First couple of posters are a bit heavy! (IMO) Made many friends with students when I used to instruct. Still in touch with quite a few though I live hundreds of miles away. Personally I can’t see how forming friendships has any detrimental effect as long as you instruct well.

I feel that on a romantic level you have to be very careful. Students give a lot of trust to their instructor and it can be easy to handle the situation very badly.

Just my opinion.

LF

VFE

19th February 2008, 19:56

Fact is: some instructors do click with a student in the romantic sense so far be it from me or anyone else to judge that! Most students are not pre-16 year olds therefore the professional responsibility associated with underage pupil scenarios is redundant here. If you teach the student what they need to know then you've done yer job. Period. The student is an adult and so is the instructor - if they then wanna go home together afterwards and make babies then that's their business. Not interested!

As for my relationship with my students - it's kept fairly arms length but we're out to enjoy ourselves whilst learning. But I've not yet had a student under my wing who I'd particularly wanna go and have a beer with to be frank! I fly and then I come home. I don't try to groom my students as mates - got enough in my private life ta!

As I said, I do have a laugh and a joke with my students, they appear relaxed around me which I like. For me personally, a relationship can be easily cultivated whereby you can switch to 'strictly business' mode as and when required. Leadership does not sit comfortably with some people, those types of instructors struggle to find a balance - that's a given with any managerial role unfortunately. In my experience, the instructors who are least flexible, least knowledgable and least amiable towards students are the insecure ones who cultivate the arms length relationships with students to avoid too much interpersonal communication work.

It's horses for courses most the time in this game and you find what works for you and your student and you stick with it. You find the groove and go with the flow. Next one walks in and it might be totally different..... for that given day. Nothing is ever set in stone, flexibility is a must so if some burd with big tits wants to ride me senseless after work then who am I to argue if it's helping her.... ahem...progress! :bored:

VFE.

DingerX

19th February 2008, 20:40

The student is an adult and so is the instructor - if they then wanna go home together afterwards and make babies then that's their business.

The reality is a little more complicated than that. Both are adults, but there's a relationship of power that kinda screws up things. And by "screws up things", I mean "to the degree where not even those involved could draw the line between legitimate feelings and abuse of power."

As long as you have institutional authority over someone, you can't have institutionally sanctioned affairs with that person. You can, however, drink beer together.

and, for those completists who insist that the only law is written on tombstones (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X18632&key=1).

Put1992

19th February 2008, 21:40

Yeah, but who can stop love eh?:p

minature hero, are you a student, or an instructor?

4ftHover

21st February 2008, 06:30

Personally, had a great Rappor with my instructors during my PPL which quickly created mutual respect between us and certainly confidence in them to see me through.

IMHO outside the classroom or aircraft i dont think it really matters as long as inside the student - instructor relationship is recognised and is respected.

duveldrinker

21st February 2008, 06:37

On the romantic issue : captains with cabin crew, medical doctors with nurses,....so why not instructors with students. We all are only human so if a spark ignites.... But if this would happen, I would immediately no longer be instructing this individual.

On the friendship/social issue : in my company we are all for a long time far away from friends, family and comforts of home. So yes, we do meet, students and IP's in the few restaurants or clubs. And these encounters are also a channel to get feedback from them about their moods, feelings, etc... that you would not observe on the training base.

lady in red

21st February 2008, 07:52

Surely guys you mean "rapport" not Rappor?? Or is this some guru I have yet to meet?
Seriously though, i tend to find that the relationship that develops over time with many of my students, is more of a mentoring role as they gain experience and qualifications and even when they are airline captains they still seem to ask for advice (but maybe that's because I am female and more like their older sister or auntie??)

outside_loop

21st February 2008, 12:28

Dinger,
theres no issue of an abuse of power. You're dealing with an adult who can make their own mind up about any relationship of any type. you're not clergy. you're not a doctor - you don’t have to stick your finger up their bottom - i can understand that that makes things more complicated! :eek:

that said, if i were involved with someone as an instructor, or as a student, i would fly with someone else, as flying is best taught in an atmosphere which is not clouded by other issues. thats just common sense.

i always wonder when i see stories of father and son or husband and wife flying a commercial jet. how willing are they going to be to dob the other in for being pissed, or for flying below minimums... And presumably they both ate the same meal the night before?!:yuk:

cats_five

21st February 2008, 14:15

Fact is: some instructors do click with a student in the romantic sense <snip>

Since most students and most instructors are male, and most are hetrosexual (this is assuming they have the same sexuality profile as the general population), the times romance could pop up must be pretty limited...

chornedsnorkack

21st February 2008, 16:00

Most but not all. The exceptions include the classical Lawrence Sperry (inventor of autopilot) and Mrs. Waldo Polk:

http://www.milehighclub.com/about/founder.html

OneIn60rule

22nd February 2008, 09:16

I heard a story about an Instructor who said to his student:

"When you address me you will refer to me as SIR"

This was thought to be a joke HOWEVER he was deadly serious on this.
*After hearing this, you can imagine where the student went... relocated*

Just thought I'd put it out there since we discuss instructors who are inflexible.

Facebook wise I have many friends both student and instructors. As student to Instructor we kept things at a minimum, rarely went for pints. On one occasion my instructor joined us for 1 pint since we finished our CPL test. That's about the extent.

To this day we are well friends.

As for romantic relationships I think it can develope HOWEVER one should avoid it. I mean you can't really be teaching someone whilst also in a relationship with them.

Better to reassign them to someone else and perhaps even in a different school.

1/60

chornedsnorkack

22nd February 2008, 11:48

As for romantic relationships I think it can develope HOWEVER one should avoid it. I mean you can't really be teaching someone whilst also in a relationship with them.

Better to reassign them to someone else and perhaps even in a different school.

Is the answer any different when the relationship is there before studies start? Can flight instructors teach well their own beloved, spouses, children, siblings or parents?

mad_jock

22nd February 2008, 12:06

About the same as they can teach them to drive a car.

ie it works for a select few but for others.......

I know quite a few instructors who have ended up in long term relationships with thier students. The common factor is that most of the students never complete thier PPL.

As for being friends with the student it all depends on the instructor and student.

Its a bit like other forms of work. Some folk become friends with customers and socialise with them others do not. Some solders are quite happy going for a pint with there NCO's but most are not. Its not wrong but shouldn't be considered normal.

TheOddOne

22nd February 2008, 12:56

Can flight instructors teach well their own beloved, spouses, children, siblings or parents?

Yes.

About the same as they can teach them to drive a car.

Not in my experience. There's something about driving a car that turns on the machismo even in wimmenfolk. I wouldn't even attempt to teach a family member to drive. Best left to the professionals

I'm teaching my 15-yr-old to fly and he's perfectly amenable to instruction. I can't even get him to tidy his room or comply with anything else, homework etc but he's a different person in the plane. I think motivation has a lot to do with it (on both sides)

TheOddOne.

Troy McClure

22nd February 2008, 13:40

Got a couple of mates who are ex students. One who got his PPL, the other where I moved on and he's still training, and he still asks my advice.

On the other hand, have also been teaching a (long time) friend to fly. And he still hasn't done his bloody Air Law......

hugh flung_dung

22nd February 2008, 14:37

IMHO it's very important to build a good and supportive relationship with the stude. I usually also offer to provide email support with things they may be struggling with and am easily persuaded to stay in the bar (or a pub) after the day is done.

Teaching your kids - yes, done that. My eldest son had one of the best pair of hands I've seen but was never able to find time to do the studying and exams so didn't get his licence.

HFD

Duchess_Driver

22nd February 2008, 17:35

Been flying the kids around for a while, thought I'd offer my eldest daughter the chance to learn......"Wot wud I Wanna do that for?"

Times they are changing!
:ugh:

Mad Girl

22nd February 2008, 18:25

IMHO it's very important to build a good and supportive relationship with the stude. I usually also offer to provide email support with things they may be struggling with and am easily persuaded to stay in the bar (or a pub) after the day is done.

Kept me on the ground, rather than bouncing off the walls, for the last 2 days..... :ugh:. Two words......... Density Altitude...... He'll understand.... :O. And YEP!!! :D

Can't dispute any of those 3 statements.... :D :ok:

and now he'll be :O :O :O :O............ ;)

mad_jock

22nd February 2008, 18:53

HFD I seem to remember in another thread discussing if you should be payed extra due to the additional stress involved teaching someone of the oppersite sex.

Any luck?

Or is the post work pint your only benefit?

:p

The last student who I gave my email to procceded to fill my account up with girl on girl porn vids.

flybmi

22nd February 2008, 21:35

The last student who I gave my email to procceded to fill my account up with girl on girl porn vids

Maybe he was hoping for a discount... ;)

Mad Girl

23rd February 2008, 19:46

Mad Girl
Kept me on the ground, rather than bouncing off the walls, for the last 2 days..... :ugh:.

mad_jock
HFD I seem to remember in another thread discussing if you should be payed extra due to the additional stress involved teaching someone of the oppersite sex.

He's been a star.....:D and I somehow think it's NOT because of my gender...... :rolleyes:

Just had my skills test binned for the 2nd time in 3 weeks... :{:ugh:

mad_jock

23rd February 2008, 23:23

You stick at it girl.

He wouldn't let you even attempt it if you wern't good enough (and prob a wee bit to spare)

To be honest if he is anything like myself he will be more nervous than you. He knows you know your !!!!. He knows you are fit for it. But you could bollocks it up on the day due to being a fanny.

Take a few quid extra along and get your bloke to drive him home afterwards.

MJ

PS don't mention doing an IMC on the day give him a couple of day of grace before you land that one on him.

Mad Girl

24th February 2008, 09:23

But you could bollocks it up on the day due to being a fanny.
If I were a bloke would I bollocks it up by being a dick???? :p

Take a few quid extra along and get your bloke to drive him home afterwards.
He'll be looked after........ Hopefully - IF it's flyable (& I pass!) - we can arrange for Mrs HFD to be there so that we can pour him into the car :E.

Getting this thread back on track....... sorry!

My instructor is very sociable and extremely supportive and I regard him as a mate.....a platonic friendship (If some of you understand the word :rolleyes:).
I can, and do talk to him about everything.. He knows when work is stressing me out or I'm not sleeping as it DOES affect my flying.... so he's been known to cut lessons short or change things around to do the "fun" stuff so that I'm STILL making progress, as being assertive doesn't always make me up my game... :ouch:

The other instructors at the club are equally approachable - even though I'm not theirs - and I'd even regard some of them as friends....
But my school is also a club... and everybody knows everybody else so maybe it's different in a professional school. (That wouldn't be half as much fun in my book)

There's nothing wrong with being friendly with your students...... They're learning to fly for themselves..... but if they ALSO don't want to let YOU down, they will try harder to get things right..... and it's easier to get things back to "normal" if you've just had to let loose with a torrent of abuse..... (NOT something HFD does by the way)

I do think that the romantic side is a bit off though.......... :suspect:

Students have to have total trust in their instructor and I can see where it would be very, very wrong.......... abuse of power (but maybe that's an older "girly" perspective!).

Cap'n Arrr

24th February 2008, 10:28

Heard it explained best by another instructor in a bar after his student called him "sir"

He said: "At the school, its sir. In the bar, its <first name>"

No reason you can't be mates with your students as far as drinks after a hard day go. There does definitely have to be a distinction between flying and beer o'clock though.

As for the romantic thing, well wouldn't know. But definitely would be giving them to a different instructor to fly with methinks.

TheOddOne

24th February 2008, 17:41

He said: "At the school, its sir. In the bar, its <first name>"

No, I'm sorry, in this day and age, I just can't get my head around that!

I always ask for a first name and give them mine. I'd be most put out to be called 'sir', though I hope I'd be gentle in politely reminding them that I have a name. The ONLY time it's remotely appropriate is when meeting a customer as a stranger for the first time i.e. they walk into the school 'can I help you, sir?'

TheOddOne

Cap'n Arrr

24th February 2008, 21:22

I agree completely with you OddOne. At the school he was at, the students were mostly from overseas, many of them insist on calling you sir. Some of them refuse to sit in an instructor seat in a briefing room. It was more to demonstrate that there is and should be a distinction between work and play. In this case he was responding to a student calling him sir outside work, not to being called "bob" at work.

Arrr

TheOddOne

25th February 2008, 20:37

At the school he was at, the students were mostly from overseas, many of them insist on calling you sir.

Ahhh, the penny droppeth!

Would this be from a culture overly reliant upon deference, that does so much damage to the concept of CRM & MCC, so vital to in-flight safety?

I expect my students to speak up if they feel something isn't right. I've currently got 12 students myself who aspire to careers as airline pilots. Though it's sometimes a bit embarrassing, I welcome feedback on my own performance from them, especially if it serves as a useful learning point. I hope that they respect me for my desire to share my knowledge with them rather than any 'authority' that I might appear to represent.

TheOddOne

mad_jock

26th February 2008, 17:38

That cultural element was brought home to me at OAT when I watch 6 blokes kicking the hell out of a fellow student ripping his clothes punching him to the point of black eyes. By this point a copper who was doing the brush up ground school with us went off down stairs to nick the lot of them. But got stopped by one of the Instructors

Apparently its tradition to get your head kicked in on doing your first solo in some cultures.

Cap'n Arrr

26th February 2008, 22:13

Um, What?!?!:eek:

Put1992

26th February 2008, 22:14

JEM60

27th February 2008, 21:32

I taught people to drive for 39 years, and flew for 10 as a PPL. The relationship between teachers and pupils is always slightly tricky. I found that girls [and ladies] looked up to and admired you and it was, in driving, VERY easy to get into a romantic relationship. I was perfectly happy for this to happen, until I married a beautiful young girl who was NOT my pupil and I made it quite plain from then on that , whenever it seemed, from the pupil's side, to be heading towards rather more than friendly, then I made it plain that it stayed friendly, but no more than that. When I was learning to fly, my main instructor, a high ranking R.A.F. Officer, fell for one of his pupils, left his wife, and, as far as I know, pupil is now his wife. Commonsense and maturity play a large part in teacher/pupil relationships, and I had to terminate peoples lessons for them getting too close on several occasions. The situation is no different in flying instruction than driving. Use your head, stay clear of married women who show too much interest in you if you are married. They tend to be the worst offenders when it comes to wanting more involment

Capt Mo

28th February 2008, 11:18

As a student, I always had a good working relationship with both of my instructors during my training, and while we socialised outside of the school (where I also worked on the reception) everything was very professional inside the plane. I have retained those friendships, a few even becoming work collegues once I completed my instructor rating.

As an instructor, up until now, most of my students at my previous flying school have been Indian students and it I have always ensured that I maintained a strictly professional relationship and that contact with my students did not continue outside of work - but despite my efforts, upon leaving that school, one of my students began stalking me, leaving me love letters, emails sms's etc for three months until they finally took me seriously and stopped, after I threatened to charge them with harrassment!:=

At a different school, I plan to keep in touch with most of my current students and some of my former students with whom I have developed a few good friendships. Many still see me for advice, just like I still regularly call up my old instructors and have a good old chat!

Try not to date your students! It doesn't look good for either of you! I have known of a few relationships that occurred between instructors and students and very few of them lasted - the others usually just became gossip that is scrawled onto the scare chairs - which usually develops into a poor reputation for that instructor or student!:rolleyes:

Cheers,

Mo :ok: