The Great PO/5Y Debate [Archive]

LANCERDVR

30th October 2007, 08:36

The federal court ordered hearing was heard by the arbitrator last week. This is the arbitration which will decide if the company has the right to expedite a grievance. The arbitrator requested briefs from both parties. He advised that his next available date to continue this arbitration will be sometime in the spring.

The remaining two arbitrations are scheduled for the 30th and the 5th.

It will be interesting to hear what comes of the investigation into the the alleged scab list posting. From what I read in the ALPA mailing, the two neutrals will investigate all aspects of the list. Not only if it was published wrongly and by who, but also whether or not there is any validity to the list. I guess it could be said that some might regret what they wished for...

layinlow

30th October 2007, 13:29

I tend to agree with you on that note. I was going to mention one section of the letter that give relief from anyone who acted in violation of ALPA's strike policies, but elected not to do so But since you brought it up; I found that sentence puzzling since no one did anything contrary to ALPA's strike policy.
Personally, it is all water under the bridge and there are a lot bigger fish to fry. This arbitration is step one. I could care less what happened in the past. There are a lot of good people out there getting hosed by AAWH management (not Atlas crews) and my only concern is that everyone wins with the exception of Cato

WhaleFR8

30th October 2007, 14:03

The thing is, I am very, very sure the MEC had nothing to do with it. Maybe it will comes out in the hearing. You may not thin much of Bobb or Robin but they are not that dumb. Funny how the PPRNUNE scab list was published, including birth days, within a day of those birthdays being transmitted to the Polar MEC by the company. Coincidence? I think NOT! ONe person on that list, was told by a Polaroid who should know, that he was placed on the list because he "drove by the Pickett line in Anchorage, and flashed them the bird."

Christian Polyp

30th October 2007, 15:06

“There are a lot of good people out there getting hosed by AAWH management (not Atlas crews) and my only concern is that everyone wins with the exception of Cato.”
What has Mr. Cato ever done to you that would elicit these remarks?

layinlow

30th October 2007, 15:19

I am not going to get into a discussion over who did what. As far as I m concerned, it doesn't make a whit. Let's just cool it and wait until a ruling is made. OK?
Then, and only then can comments be posted concerning this lawsuit.

cptvac

30th October 2007, 15:26

trashhauler

30th October 2007, 20:16

Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!11

mercpc9

30th October 2007, 21:29

Whale

If your are so sure Bobb and Robin (and others) did what you insinuate they did...why sign off on ALPAs' Special Hearing alternative? Originally you were already counting your $500K...weren't you?

You are just as guilty of preconvicting(?) on circumstantial evidence as the scumbag who circulated the PPrune list.

I think once ALPA National found out that they had to represent Bobb and the rest in the civil lawsuit for inappropriately releasing their list, they started looking for alternatives. Since all of the ones that had control of the list don't have any real money, judgments against their estates would probably be the best that they would get. A lot of money to be spent with no real payout in the end for those falsely accused by those controlling the list.

So the Special Hearing Alternative came to being instead of the civil suit. Even though there were no scabs and still are none. ALPA Nationals original limp d!@k approach to the original Article VIII just made things worse inducing this latest event to clear the names of those Atlas crews wrongly accused by Polar.

ALPA dropping the Article VIII's
http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/Article8denial1.gif
http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/Article8denial2.gif

trashhauler

31st October 2007, 00:17

I'm confused. The letter you posted is dated over a year ago, and I see no where that it absolved anyone of anything. It just states that ALPA is dodging the issue due to the fact that the APLA MEC filed the grievances too late, not that the investigation showed no violations. Forgive me if I am wrong, but would opening up the can of worms all over again, maybe show some skullduggery? If I remember correctly you guys wanted a lot of money from the Polar MEC, now you don't. What gives?
Sometimes it is better to let sleeping dogs lie. At any rate, I hope find out who did the dastardly deed.

LANCERDVR

31st October 2007, 00:43

Not only to find out who did the deed, but also to find out which, if any, of those on the list actually scabbed! I understand a lot of Polar freight moved during the strike, so who moved it? I guess we shall finally find out.

CR2

31st October 2007, 11:39

Don't go there.
:=

layinlow

31st October 2007, 12:29

Agreed. This forum is more about the arbitration hearings which happened yesterday. Let's keep it to that subject only.

mercpc9

1st November 2007, 23:14

Agreed. This forum is more about the arbitration hearings which happened yesterday. Let's keep it to that subject only.

Probably a good idea since few seem to know what the ALPA hearing is really about judging from the previous posts.

trashhauler

2nd November 2007, 13:20

Now I am confused. I thought the hearings were over the expedited hearing issue and the downgrading and furlough of Polar crews while Atlas is flying Polar schedules, civilian and military. Enlighten me please. Anf please stay on subject.

L-38

2nd November 2007, 16:35

Calendar -

10/22 Scheduled grievance - Merger

10/31, 11/06 Scheduled grievance - Atlas flying of Polar flights

mercpc9

3rd November 2007, 08:11

The "SCAB" Alternative Hearing. Instead of just suing the Polar MEC and others.

Heard this week. One Polar guy showed up on the Polar side to testify.

The set aside lawsuit info and the ALPA hearing info of those that wanted to spend there money in defense of their names because of ALPA's previous limp way of handling the situation HERE IN PDF (http://cptaudio.com/merger/alpaalternativehearing.pdf).

Answers most of your questions if you decide to read it, but why let facts get in the way of what you want.

Furloughed

3rd November 2007, 14:03

Did the Atlas guys ever get those battle stars the MEC promised?

rugr84us

3rd November 2007, 17:25

Boy, now that is FUNNY. Battle Stars for hauling other's freight !!!

bpp

3rd November 2007, 19:46

Please tell me how YOU know Polar freight was on an Atlas flight and NOT on FEDEX, UPS, or NWA? Were you at any aircraft checking the airwaybills? I know for a fact Atlas pilots were. Do you think FEDEX, UPS, or NWA pilots even gave a damn? Wake the hell up! :mad: :ugh:

WhaleFR8

3rd November 2007, 20:08

So tell me ruger If United went on strike and the passengers all went over to Delta, would those be Delta passengers or would the UAL pilots accuse Delta pilots of being Scabs?

Should the Delta Pilots stand in the door and ask each individual passenger if they were in fact a previous UAL passenger. And then if any of those passengers said "yes I was on a United flight" then the Delta Pilot would refuse to fly?? Why is freight any different?

That's what Polar expected the Atlas pilots to do during their one hour pre-flight. They wanted the Atlas pilots to go through each and every way-bill to try to determine if it was Polar freight and not to fly the aircraft if it had any freight on it that might be considered Polar. How ridiculous is that! There were not, nor are their now, any comprehensive struck freight rules.

In Polar's case they even wanted the Atlas pilots to refuse to fly if the airplane had any freight on it that came from a previous Polar customer.

rugr84us

3rd November 2007, 21:17

Battle Stars !!!! That is just too funny. I see Polar Crews wearing Battle Stars, because the went on strike, and you want them for flying their freight. Too Funny! You got proof the others flew Polar freight? Polar has waybills from Atlas flying Polar freight. Battle Stars ! HA ! And it's "RUGR," can't you read ? No wonder you had trouble reading Waybills !

WhaleFR8

3rd November 2007, 21:51

you still didn't answer the question. Typical.

And your name looks like Ruger to me. Ruger as in gun? Is that an implied threat to Atlas pilots? What is your other name on this board?

The battle stars are for supporting your strike. Bobb knew that the ONLY way he was going to get ANYTHING from management was to involve the Atlas pilots. Why do you think you only went to the airport when an Atlas plane was on the ground or coming in or leaving. Everyone else on the planet was hauling freight marked for Polar yet you were only picketing when an Atlas plane was on the ground.

You guys deserve battle stars even less than the Atlas Pilots do. You got battle stars for parking a car in front of the airport and leaving a sign on it? And for having your wives chase a van down (that had no Atlas pilots in it) while swearing and hitting the van with a sign? Give me a break!

rugr84us

4th November 2007, 05:24

Battle Stars ! Thats funny, I don't care who you are( Cable Guy). You didn't answer my question either.

mercpc9

4th November 2007, 06:47

Did the Atlas guys ever get those battle stars the MEC promised?

This ties in with same question on another thread in which I stand corrected. While I was wrong and have gotten new info, cptvac said he was correct. As it turns out, he was wrong also.

A resolution was forwarded to the recent ALPA Executive council meeting for the Battle Stars for Atlas crewmembers. That resolution vote was put on hold until the Executive Vice President representing Polar has time to review how it was done at another carrier (Northwest). So it wasn't voted down, just delayed at the hands of the Executive Vice President representing Polar at the council meeting.

A second (the last minute one requested by a number of the Executive Council from the Atlas MEC) resolution was forwarded as above to motivate Polar to go forward with the merger. It was resolved to hold that vote until the current Polar arbitration with the company on the merger was resolved.

Not quite what cptvac would want you to believe.

I have some more stuff on the ALPA Alternative Hearing of the Illegal SCAB list. I'm going to hold off putting it out until I get confirmation that the hearing has adjourned. May have more stuff by then anyway.

On another note,

I don't remember anyone on the Polar side digging through airway bills, checking freight, or going on a sympathy strike like Atlas did. I think the only thing that Polar did was have one of the MEC monitor the loads from the company office in Purchase NY during our final hour (Greg Dimoff or Denim Yarger?) and then Chairman Fell volunteering his membership to fly Atlas struck A/C and contracts. What overwhelming support. Thanks for all that effort.

Having said that, we do know that some Atlas freight did go on Polar prior to and after. No we didn't go on strike in the end. It became more important to keep our guys in the cockpits with Polar, AACS, GSS, and the other contracted carriers at the ready to replace us. They had already been replacing us for some time as we were shrunk with our A/C, contracts going to Polar and with furloughs. Atlas furloughs equal in expansion of Polar, AACS, GSS. Lorenzo would be proud of Atlas management on how they handled it. Of course, a majority of them were Lorenzo lieutenants from those days. After all of this, we didn't start a hate campaign against Polar. We only brought this all up after being attacked by the Polar MEC and membership.

I would also like to note that other NON-UNION airlines were contracted to fly our stuff and were flying it prior to the deadline and afterwards under the clauses in the contract Atlas signed with them. These guys didn't have a choice what so ever and we at Atlas didn't like it, but we didn't start a hate campaign against either. We knew they were up against a wall.

rugr84us

4th November 2007, 15:22

When, if ever did Atlas get their own freight system? That outta go down with Battle Stars. Never see any ads for Atlas Freight. Kev Mc can you answer that one?

And there you go, they were NON-UNION ! Nuf said.

free at last

4th November 2007, 15:49

You are beginning to sound like you have nothing between you'r ears and that is sooooooo sad!!!!!!!!!!

L-38

4th November 2007, 16:15

Why do we continually bait and taunt each other over this?

The strike's actual history is well documented, and while having personally experienced those days, I know of equal heroes on both sides. . . . However I also know of a few overzealous Polar Indians that had become an embarrassment to the fraternity (one idiot in his crazed zeal actually came very close to getting himself fired).

Most likely a few "Indians" also populate Atlas Air as well (only the Atlas folk know who they are), so in knowing this, when will this strike issue finally become a dead horse??
I believe that the rank and file of both sides understood their limits on what needed to be done. Those that did not, soon learned.

. . .and about ex MEC Chair Robert Fell . . . . if true . . . what an embarrassment in the highs and lows of the Polar MEC!

Po Boy

4th November 2007, 16:32

L-38,

Well said, This crap is so tiring to hear over and over again!

Let's Move On:ugh:

iahtexan747400

4th November 2007, 17:49

I'll second that L-38! Keep the info coming Merc, thanks!

layinlow

4th November 2007, 20:14

I agree, the water has long passed under the bridge and with the exception of a few on each side, no body give a s#*t. Let's move on. The hearings were and will be soon heard, the decision will be what it is and that is it; then you can bitch, but let's leave it alone for now!!
Maybe we need a new thread, Polar/Atlas bitches. Yeah, that would work.

cptvac

5th November 2007, 13:08

Happy Monday Merc

"He" wasn't wrong at all...

What Cptvac posted is that the resolutions were not adopted. They weren't.

Neither resolution was on the agenda. They were put forth as "Emergency" resolutions late in the day after the Polar Representative was told there was no more Polar business worth staying for, and left. Typical. Even Prater was blindsided (and offended). As was the majority of the EC.

The "Emergency" resolution aimed at derailing Polar Crewmembers legal efforts in defense of their contract was put "on hold" until January... when Polars' legal battles will be finished. Some "Emergency"...guess the EC did not share Mr. Bournes' urgency.

Battlestars? My return envelope is addressed and ready...just in case.

Next.

layinlow

5th November 2007, 14:50

Well, my goodness. Nothing decided huh? I just listened to the MEC announcement and guess what. No decision with more hearings on the way. I can't wait to here the Atlas VARS to get his take on it. I bet it is different than Bobbs.
My point here is to show that both sides are a little bit self-serving. I am guilty (being a Poloroid, furloughed and working someplace else but still a Poloroid). Personally, what happened or not happened is now in front of an ALPA committee. Whatever is decided is decided. Big Deal! As for the other grievances; nothing will happen and when it does, then try to defend the decision pro/or com.

Captvac, I got a private message coming to you in a minute. Got some interesting information.

mercpc9

5th November 2007, 18:29

"He" wasn't wrong at all...

What Cptvac posted is that the resolutions were not adopted. They weren't.
Your implication then and now was that it was voted down and not put on hold.
Neither resolution was on the agenda. They were put forth as "Emergency" resolutions late in the day after the Polar Representative was told there was no more Polar business worth staying for, and left. Typical. Even Prater was blindsided (and offended). As was the majority of the EC.
I'm a little surprised about that considering a number of the Executive Committee requested the last minute resolution from D. Bourne. As to Prater being blind sided, I doubt that considering he new of these requests quite some time ago. Maybe he just wanted to look surprised for some of the collective at hand.
The "Emergency" resolution aimed at derailing Polar Crewmembers legal efforts in defense of their contract was put "on hold" until January... when Polars' legal battles will be finished. Some "Emergency"...guess the EC did not share Mr. Bournes' urgency.
No, the Executive Council just letting the mediator of the arbitrations solve the problem for them. Then join along with it backing up the result. Pretty typical.

CR2

5th November 2007, 19:09

Folks, I hope you don't mind but I've closed the long running Atlas STN thread & re-named this one.

:)

cptvac

5th November 2007, 20:35

Again Merc,

These were put forward as "Emergency" resolutions and aimed solely at damaging the Polar legal process. They will not have any effect, and the backdoor nature of their introduction was just another confirmation of the Atlas MECs' collusion against the Polar Crewmembers.

The legal process will be seen through, whatever the outcome. Polar Crewmembers, under advice of counsel, are defending their CBA against a coercive Company and their Union lapdogs (uh, that'd be you).

"K", I will agree, the EC has a phenomenal knack for passing the buck and a marked inability to say "Go to he!!" when appropriate. As in this case. But they surely did blow off, for now, the "Bourne Emergency".

layinlow

6th November 2007, 15:09

Why captvac, you don't really think that do you. Bourne in bed with AAWH and their minion Cato, say it ain't so........ Look at the great CBA they negotiated, look at the great deal they're getting in STN. And let's not talk about the gateway travel. Man your off base on that one. You owe an apology. heh-heh

742

6th November 2007, 20:17

Folks, I hope you don't mind but I've closed the long running Atlas STN thread & re-named this one.

I suspect that a lot of Atlas and Polar crews wish that you would close this one too. So many being made to look so stupid by so few.

Lowrider2

6th November 2007, 20:43

It is very entertaining; leave it up

WhaleFR8

7th November 2007, 00:09

Bourne in bed with AAWH and their minion Cato, say it ain't so........ Look at the great CBA they negotiated, look at the great deal they're getting in STN. And let's not talk about the gateway travel. Man your off base on that one. You owe an apology. heh-hehhmmmm... lets see. Polar has won a single grievance. They have never actually filed any grievance other than scope grievances. The one grievance they won caused the actual firing of all but a handful of FEs. Their crew force is less than half what it was when this MEC and Hair took over. They are down to 5 aircraft (the -200 and 416MC belong to Atlas). Atlas pilots will never be wearing a Polar uniform - but I am certain, if they want to keep flying for AAWW, that the Polaroids WILL be wearing an Atlas uniform.

So tell me again which leadership is the right one?

....and what happened today - was that noise we all heard the sound of the Judge actually spanking Bobb?

So many being made to look so stupid by so few742 - it is much worse than you think. Of all the Polaroid screen names that post here, there are actually only two people doing so. At least Merc and I are different people and only post under one screen name apiece.

WhaleDriver

7th November 2007, 04:10

I'm a third Atlas poster, but sitting on the sidelines for now. Merc gets the info long before I do.

I have to agree with Merc on the average Polaroids feelings lately. I've had some deadheaders and jumpseaters and to a person, they say they know nothing. Most knew little of the multiple processes currently going on? They had quit a bit to say about the union, but posting here would just stir the pot and prove nothing.

Suffice it to say, they weren't happy. I'm not saying everyone at Atlas is happy with union activities either.

As other have pointed out, it is out of our hands and up to the courts and arbitrators.

BTW, when was the last time the Polar MEC came to terms with anyone without an arbitrator or judge making the decision for them?

mercpc9

7th November 2007, 12:48

Got some new info.

The alternative hearing instead of just suing the Polar MEC and Strike Breakers Committee has closed. Decisions to follow. Only one Polar guy showed up and he ended up testifying for the Atlas crew members along with Duane Woerth ex ALPA president. Guess they will make the Polar "snake list." I'll try and get the transcripts. I have the Atlas presentation, but I have to work at getting it up on here first. Kind of a funky format that I'm having trouble converting for web display. I'll try and get that out later. Don't have any physical evidence offered by Polar. Just testimony from the one that attended that would be on the transcripts. That was in favor of Atlas anyway.

Lets see, the Polar MEC forms a strike breakers committee and files about 180 Article VIII's on Atlas crewmembers which fails. At a later hearing brought by those accused by Polar, the Polar MEC doesn't have the time or the will to shake someone loose to attend and testify for the Polar MEC or the Strike Breakers Committee. Not even the time to have someone testify by phone which was acceptable. Pretty much says it all. Complete BS used by Bobb Henderson to defray attention from his mistakes and put it on Atlas crew members.

I believe the arbitration to find if the the Company merger grievance can be put into priority above the others due to the merger has concluded. Arbiter findings are not out yet. That will probably be a while.

Polar filed another grievance over the Holden arbitration trying to get A/C and jobs back to Polar from Atlas again.

Here is the recent Atlas VARS Click here (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=40725)

Here it is in RealAudio
IN REALAUDIO (http://cf.alpa.org:4080/ramgen/mec/aai/vars/aaimec993.rm?usehostname)

Didn't have time to record the Polar VARS, but you can dial it here 1 800 253 5671

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/debate/logs.pl

iahtexan747400

7th November 2007, 13:31

Wouldn't a merger with one CBA ensure all crew members have jobs and possibly create opportunity for more jobs instead of tying up the legal process?

WhaleFR8

7th November 2007, 15:43

Oh Please,
Bobb has used the Atlas VARS message against Atlas pilots whenever he pleases. They are not secure and often times the company calls them and listens to them. ALL union members know this and understand that the VARS messages are used to get a message across, not just to the union members but often times to other people in the negotiation process. So you might as well give that one a rest LIL!

layinlow

8th November 2007, 12:53

There is a difference of listening to a VARS and putting the number on a public forum. Just how many do you think reads this thread that is not a Polar or Atlas crewmember? How many do you thinks called? For the first time, I had a busy signal for about 30 minutes.

mercpc9

8th November 2007, 14:09

Personally, I hope everyone in the industry calls. Then they can compare all the downloads of facts here to what Bobb says and what the Atlas MEC says.

A public airing out might keep everyone here more honest.

Since this forum was used to publish confidential information of crew members on an illegal scab list with no denunciation by the Polar MEC (Bobb H. in particular) about the act, let alone him not taking any responsibility for the confidential information being leaked by him or his committee personnel in itself tells me he condoned it. I'm sorry, a statement of "I can't control all of my crew members" by Bobb is just a poor excuse and poor leadership in his responsibilities indicating he condoned it also. Not showing up, calling in, or being represented at the recent Alternative Hearing on that list is another. So much easier to scream "SCAB" and list names than prove it the right way. Kind of like being asked "when did you stop beating your wife and kids" of those accused of being scabs.

This kind of behavior continues on many other subjects already discussed on this thread and others.

L-38

8th November 2007, 17:11

Alright, the scab list may prove to be an embarrassment as well. . . if so, what would it take for Council 24 to rectify this?

Personal 5Y blast's of Council 24's elected members ("This kind of behavior continues on many other subjects") are nothing more than boring moans of ineffectual whining. . . We elected Bobb H. You did not. . therefore what can you do about it other than cry?.

Understand that few Polaroid's (if any) are unhappy with him. Bobb H may be a Stalin to 5Y, but to Polar he is Abe Lincoln.

WhaleDriver

8th November 2007, 22:12

L-38, boy are you gonna be disappointed when the truth is known and/or believed by the average Polaroid.

WhaleFR8

13th November 2007, 18:09

So how'd the Horowitz arb go for you guys vac? Any news?

layinlow

13th November 2007, 18:27

The answer is no answer, yet

WhaleFR8

13th November 2007, 19:21

Really? I had heard differently.

cptvac

13th November 2007, 22:36

Yes, theres been some news.

WhaleFR8

14th November 2007, 00:21

When is the hearing?

mercpc9

14th November 2007, 02:31

I think that will come out with the written decision. That's if the company doesn't go shopping around for an available arbiter.

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/debate/logs.pl

mercpc9

18th November 2007, 06:12

I did get some of the Atlas side of the Alternative hearing evidence in lieu of the outright suing the Polar MEC and Strike Breakers Committee. No documentary evidence was produced by the Polar side during the hearing as I understand it. Just verbal testimony by one Polar guy which backed up the Atlas side of the suite.

This is a power point file in which I converted into a web flash slide show since a lot of folks don't have power point. The original had some bell's and whistles that do not convert for web presentation (sound and animation).

Click on the link and then click on the images to proceed to the next one:

Slide Show of Atlas Presentation to the Hearing Members (http://cptaudio.com/merger/Oct31ADRPanel.swf)

It has many parts that have been here before, but new stuff has been added. Guess only recent post facto discoveries were added.

I have info on the recent Polar/Atlas management grievance if Atlas should be allowed to take priority on the the merger grievance, but since I will not betray a confidence, I'll let cptvac give out that info if he so willing. What do you say "M"? I know you have it.

Miami Freight

18th November 2007, 07:24

What no comment from Merc about the latest Polar VARS? It's a shame that those poor Polar crewmembers at being sooooo deceived by their MEC.
[U]I'd rather lose on my feet than win on my knees./U]

WhaleDriver

18th November 2007, 13:40

Maybe thats because no one really understands what he said. I've never heard so much lawyer BS in my life. This from a guy that still doesn't understand the difference between profits and revenues. I knew there was spin due, but this one is a doosy.

mercpc9

18th November 2007, 15:08

My response to the arbitration is Click Here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=3712048&postcount=13) under the Polar Arbitration thread.

In Bobb's VARS, I find it really funny he thinks himself Randy Clark's best friend now while at the same time saying that their is no merger despite what Mr. Clark says HERE IN PDF (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/docs/LetterfromRandyClark.pdf) in a letter to both Bobb and the Atlas MEC Chairman. Then again, Bobb and Robin are full of contradictions. Especially with the truth. Of course their is the AAWH CEO thoughts on it HERE IN PDF (http://atlasmergerfacts.com/docs/10052007wflynnletter.pdf).

Bobb's (or really Robin's) VARS is here:

In streaming Mp3 (http://cptaudio.com/mp3/polarvars11172007.m3u)

I wouldn't call it going out standing on your feet. More like going out on your hands and knees bleeding from all of your orifices wondering who is next in line. Much like how Polar and Atlas management has done to the Atlas crew members a number of times in the past as shown in my previous posted slide show above. It appears that your Bobb/Robin team is making sure it's membership is pulling a very long jail house train.

WhaleFR8

18th November 2007, 15:53

This is very simple really.

Bobbrobin wanted to place the company's grievance over the (lack) of merger on the bottom of the Polaroid grievance list. This indicates to the world that he doesn't have a case - why delay if you think you are right?

The company filed a grievance over that, as the Polar grievance backlog was caused by the Polar MEC themselves (THEY have never put all those grievances forward for hearings).

The arbitrator told Bobbrobin that the company's grievance WILL go to the top of the pile.

It is incredible to me that Bobbrobin considers this a win. What is more incredible is that MF (and others) believe them. Fact is that the current Polar MEC has won only a single grievance. And that grievance caused the loss of almost all of their FE jobs. During their tenure the number of jobs at Polar has gone from over 300, to 170, with more losses to come. They have gone from 15 flyable airplanes, down to 7 - two of which are on loan from Atlas.

So tell me again who you believe? Tell me how good this whole fight has been for the Polaroids. I said this over a year ago - winning a battle does not necessarily mean you have won the war. At some point you have to realize that the company can do business how it wants. The union cannot keep a company from merging - no matter how strong the scope language is.

The issue here is that one persons pride and his refusal to back away from a statement he made to a certain VP of OPs may cause 170 pilots to lose their jobs, and is certainly causing 700 pilots to lose pay and benefits from lack of a new contract.

ONE PERSON is causing this - and everyone just sits by and lets it happen.

whaledriver101

20th November 2007, 00:07

The award doesnt compel the Polar crewmembers to do anything. Alright,, so its expedited. Big deal.

The Polar crewmembers have a scope clause in the contract(operational merger tied to a certificate)and we expect it to be honored.

As simple as that.

Furloughed

1st December 2007, 13:08

I bet OJ is good for the first round of drinks!

joetommy

1st December 2007, 15:11

This is a big win. I just hope it does'nt put the ASTAR pilots off with their strike.

L-38

1st December 2007, 16:05

5y no doubt, is populated by a few hotshot fanatics - as is Polar.

The pissing contest between these "hotshots" had gotten out of hand and should have been checked (especially Polar's retort). System wide, the remaining crewmembers on both sides were otherwise honorable. . . . . .to bad that immoral history cannot be erased.

L-38

2nd December 2007, 15:18

"These immoral acts on the Polar side cannot be erased".

Merc, I suspect that you (and whale) would throw a wrench into any future 5y/Polar negotiations (thereby making a future combined but cohesive crew force impossible).

It may prove futile, but I support PAC 23's attempt to go it alone.

LANCERDVR

3rd December 2007, 02:53

Well Merc and Whale you have both done a fine job fanning the flames between Polar and Atlas pilots. You've had a wonderful time twisting reality to fuel your ongoing propaganda machine. Now you are gearing up to drive a wedge between the Astar and Polar pilots. Since you are so sure of your accusations why not put your name on your posts so we can all know the geniuses behind the monikers.
Captain Henderson and Captain Hair work at the direction of the Polar pilot group. 100% of the Polar pilot group have directed the MEC to oppose the illegal merger from going forward. Our contract is quite clear on what is a legitimate merger. If you haven't taken the time to read it for yourself do it and then mind your own business. I suggest you use your time more appropriately and direct your MEC to enter contract negotiations as will the Polar MEC very shortly.

The overwhelming majority of the Atlas pilot group and Polar pilot group want these issues behind us. The company has done a fantastic job of influencing a small group (including yourself) of individuals working hard to keep the two groups from working together. I suggest you figure out who's side you are going to be on, Mgmt or ALPA pilots. Right now the majority of Atlas/Polar pilots feel you are with Mgmt. If you are so sure that I am wrong you will not have any problem posting your name here. In fact if you put your name here I will drop my resolution to file the Article VIII charges and consider you entitled to your opinion. If you do not put a name to your posts then we all know your true intention is to use your propaganda in direct opposition to the two ALPA pilot groups. This by the way is worthy of an Article VIII filing. So what's it going to be Merc/Whale, will you be with us or against us?

Intruder

3rd December 2007, 03:29

100% of the Polar pilot group have directed the MEC to oppose the illegal merger from going forward.
I assume that means there was an official ballot of the group, and the 100% ballot vote was verified by ALPA. I also assume the definition of "illegal merger" is very clear.

If the assumptions are correct, please post the definition. If the assumptions are wrong, please post the reality.

whaledriver101

3rd December 2007, 05:04

Again,,, The Polar pilots have a scope clause in their contract(operational merger tied to a certificate) and we expect it to be honored.

Its a scope clause. It really cannot get anymore simple than that.

L-38

3rd December 2007, 16:22

If 5y's venom is as strong and as vindictive as reflected by you, merc, then a merged company (like that of Northwest and Republic) should be avoided.

It will be a miserable place to work for many years, and I'm not sure that D. Bourne's soap will get you any cleaner.

WhaleFR8

3rd December 2007, 17:43

I'm not sure that D. Bourne's soap will get you any cleaner.L38
It is interesting that your post has two fonts. Kind of reinforces the idea that most of you Polar posters are just cutting and pasting what Bobbrobin are telling you to say. Can't you think for yourselves?

It is certainly NOT the average Polar pilot that Atlas pilots have issues with. In fact both sides have been very cordial when we have to DH with each other. And trust me the Atlas pilots do not want to merge - with anyone. But they recognize that this is going to happen. The root of the issue is that the Atlas pilots believe that the company will make this happen - as do the admittedly few Polar pilots I have talked to. Bobbrobin on the other hand, at various times have believed that the merger was a myth, that the company would not really do it, and now they believe that they can block this merger - it is a power play plain and simple. And all of this after at one point agreeing to the merger and in fact complaining that Bourne was THE impediment to the merger.

No, what the Atlas pilots want is to GET ON WITH IT. If Bobbrobin are so sure that they are right then why delay things like they did with the Horowitz arb? Are they going to continue to do that. Didn't they send the choice of hotels at the last arbitration hearing to the arbitrator too? Delay, delay, delay, that is their tactics. And regardless of what others think, there is no way for Atlas pilots to force the company to the negotiating table - so the ONLY way for Atlas pilots to get to a contract is through the merger. That is what makes them angry. No contract, no raise, no new scope rules, no AABO integration, no QOL changes - and every bit of it can be laid at the feet of Bobbrobin.

ALL of the financial data indicate that if Polar is spun off it will die. Your ONLY option is to go through with the merger. So if you don't want to merge then quitting is your best option as there will probably be no Polar. So why go through all this angst?

Git 'er done.

L-38

4th December 2007, 00:42

"It is interesting that your post has two fonts. Kind of reinforces the idea that most of you Polar posters are just cutting and pasting what Bobbrobin are telling you to say. Can't you think for yourselves?"

Ya swung and you missed, Whale. . . No joy. . . . Fact is, I have not communicated with Bobb / Robin for years (especially since I had quit as a committee chairman after criticizing him at breakfast years ago - of course he remains a hard working member of my MEC and I'm allowed to do that as it's my laundry, not yours.).

I do cut / paste my own content from mcrsft word. . . must have screwed up on the transfer however . . so solly.

atlast

4th December 2007, 02:47

When all is said and done, I want to work for and retire from this company. I want it to grow and prosper. We most definitely need a union, but not one that seems intent on killing the golden goose.
I'm quite happy to see the Atlas MEC corral the goose :D
I don't see the point of the Polar MEC trying to shoot it,
to prove a point :ugh:

iahtexan747400

4th December 2007, 03:35

Excellent post Whalefr8 and Atlast. I totally agree!

LANCERDVR

4th December 2007, 05:09

Well merc, as I thought you are not willing to put your name to your propaganda. No surprise. I hope everyone see's through your self -rightous, harmful, propaganda and understands you do not represent the overwhelming majority of pilots working for Atlas or Polar. Are you threatening me by implying you know my location? I also have computer skills, yes your identity is well known. You will know mine with certainty when you recieve your notice from ALPA National with your Article VIII charges.

You might want to review the following code of ethics from the ALPA constitution and bylaws, you, in your 100s of posts have broken the following:

An Air Line Pilot will conduct his affairs with other members of the profession and with ALPA in such a manner as to bring credit to the profession and ALPA as well as to himself.

• He will not falsely or maliciously injure the professional reputation, prospects, or job security of another pilot, yet if he knows of professional incompetence or conduct detrimental to the profession or to ALPA, he will not shrink from revealing this to the proper authorities within ALPA, so that the weak member may be brought up to the standards demanded, or ALPA and the profession alike may be rid of one unworthy to share its rewards. • He will conduct his affairs with ALPA and its members in accordance with the rules laid down in the Constitution and By-Laws of ALPA and with the policies and interpretations promulgated therefrom. • An Air Line Pilot shall refrain from any action whereby, for his personal benefit or gain, he take advantage of the confidence reposed in him by his fellow members. • He will regard himself as a debtor to his profession and ALPA, and will dedicate himself to their advancement. .An Air Line Pilot the honor of his profession is dear, and he will remember that his own character and conduct reflect honor or dishonor upon the profession.

LANCERDVR

4th December 2007, 05:58

To answer your questions,

As Whaledriver101 said "The Polar pilots have a scope clause in their contract(operational merger tied to a certificate) and we expect it to be honored.

Its a scope clause. It really cannot get anymore simple than that."

As to your ballot question, no it was not balloted. The 100% I used may have a margin of error of .1%. Actually I do not know of one Polar pilot that is in disagreement with our MEC.

We hold quarterly meetings in which the merger of course has been the primary subject. The group is in complete agreement and has total confidence in the path the MEC has taken. The Polar pilot group is a very tight knit group, considerably smaller than the Atlas group which makes it much easier to work together in one direction. Our contract is clear. We realize as a group that the company would get considerable benefit by merging the two pilot groups. We are not opposed to that. However, the contract does not allow for this type of merger to take place and maintain two separate companies and two separate operating certificates. So we are asking for certain job protections before moving forward. The company and the Atlas MEC would not agree to these protections, so in accordance with our contract we decline to move forward with this so called merger. Did we take a poll, no. Are we 100% in agreement, absolutely. We are standing up for our rights under our hard won CBA, even if certain members of the Atlas pilot group prefer to take whatever the company dictates.

WhaleDriver

4th December 2007, 07:06

I don't know what your smoking, but it must be goooood stuff. Of the two dozen or so Polariods I've talked to in the last year, not a one had any idea what was going on. They said they were out of the loop and not happy about it. They said they felt like sheep, just following along.

rob rilly

4th December 2007, 13:48

And don't forget K Mc !! He stirs the pot too !!:ugh:

layinlow

4th December 2007, 19:09

They must have missed that page.

rob rilly

4th December 2007, 21:44

Merc, you never sign any of your post !!! DUH !!!:ugh:

WhaleFR8

4th December 2007, 21:52

Merc, you never sign any of your post !!! DUH !!!:ugh:Typical - can't (or won't) read Just about any moron could figure out who I am. I'm not hiding as you purport, just trying to keep someone(s) from doing something stupid requiring my appearance in court or the hospital again depending on who gets the drop on who. It's not rocket science. Having said that, I guess you finally asked someone?

http://cptaudio.com/cgi-bin/debate/logs.pl

cptvac

5th December 2007, 04:43

Is CaptVac booted?

CR2

5th December 2007, 12:11

cptvac just had to cool his heels a little. As mercpc9 is now.

To all of you: keep it civilized, ok? name calling really is a bit childish.

Po Boy

5th December 2007, 12:42

I would of preferred to have seen this thread closed, along with all the other Atlas/Polar threads, but I know that the handful of guys at both Atlas and Polar would just start another thread brining back up all the OLD stuff we have been seeing here for the past couple of years!:ugh:

WhaleFR8

5th December 2007, 23:39

PO,
I didn't see your name on either the scab list or the law suit so I guess you will just have to stay away from this site or this thread until this is all said and done. This isn't about the Polar pilots and it isn't about the company. This whole thread is about the Polar MEC and the fact that certain decisions they have made have caused the Atlas Pilots (of which you are but one) to suffer with no contract, no QOL, no upgrades, no new customers, no AABO integration, no scheduling department changes - basically every thing that counts in your job is on hold waiting for the Polar MEC to quit their shenanigans.

And the fact is that the Polar scope clause makes no mention of being "married to the certificate" it simply says complete operational merger. So there is room for interpretation which leads to arbitration. And not one single Atlas pilot including in the MEC contests their right to grieve and arbitrate that portion of their scope clause. What does upset most Atlas pilots, and should upset you, is the delaying tactics - and of course the name calling and lack of honesty towards the Atlas pilots. Here (https://crewroom.alpa.org/AAI072/DesktopModules/ViewDocument.aspx?DocumentID=41015) is the link to the ADR - just in case you may have missed it before Merc got booted.