New Joiners - Unified First Officer Pay Scale

[HUD Cripple]

I was given the thumbs up for an Australia DEFO Pax in early 2007. Likely course date early 2008. The documentation at the time indicated normal Bscale $120k FO1 pay. This new CoS08 UFO pay looks like being 90k for the 1st 3 years and an extra year on base, making it 4 minimum. That's almost a $100k pay cut over 3 years!

I reckon 90k is very skinny given the experience required to get the job as a DEFO Pax. If you're like me you'd be taking a serious pay cut if you accept it.

It applies 1 Jan 08 - ie to everyone who hasn't been given a course date I'd imagine.

As new joiners we have no right of reply except not taking the job. If what's above is what's on my contract offer I think that is exactly what I'll do.

Very dissapointing given the amount of time and effort it takes to jump through the HR hoops.

If you are in a similar situation to me, please knock back the job! It's the only way we can let them know that CoS08 is not enough.

If you're in CX, unsure if you can change this CoS through a vote. Either way please help out your peer wannabe's anyway you can, we appreciate it! Surely it'll make further pay cases harder to justify if someone else is doing your job for much less.

HC

[Blogsey]

Yes, but in reply. What are the options:
$80K with QF/VB/J*?

[HUD Cripple]

Seems logical on the surface yeah? 90k vs 80K starting pay.

Cathay are recruiting us as FO's on an International full service carrier. Not as an FO on a budget airline inside Australia. Qantas are employing you as a an SO that still needs to do upgrades etc.

They're doing this to lessen the training burden by buying experience.

That's my argument, they're no longer BUYING the experience! They're expecting to get it for a bargain. It's the same (and quickly less) than an SO on QF.

[Millstream]

It is confirmed, CX is desperate and have lost the plot.

Q1 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joins 1 Jan 08?
A1 $73,440

Q2 How much will a Y1 USA Freighter FO earn who joined TODAY be earning, come 1 Jan 08?
A2 $65,412

Yes, CX will be paying the new joiner 12K more..................:D

UFO (new join) Existing
Y1 $73,440 $65,412
Y2 $74,904 $71,592
Y3 $76,404 $77,772 - just!

That should motivate the guys in the USA:ok:

If they do happen to be a little demotivated by this, CX can always dispatch the DFO for another round of glad handing. You know, remind them that - really it isn't about pensions, pay and the like; remind them that all they really want is to strap on a shiny new jet!!

UPS must be laughing its socks off.

Milly

[Blogsey]

OK hud, but still, you're only worth what other company's will pay for you. NO-ONE in Australia pays over $90,000 plus allowances and super, for the first year. Regardless of 10,000 jet hours or 70 C-172 hours.
Unfortunately, it's still the best deal.......

[Numero Crunchero]

Blogsey - are you for real????????

Please enlighten us with your analysis that this is the best deal.

Lets say you are an RAAF pilot with about 10 years flying experience. Your salary is about $107K(counting service allowance) and you get housing benefit of either reduced interest rate or subsidised housing that equates to another 10-15K before tax. So you would be taking a $25-30K pay cut to join CX. When I joined CX it was a 200% payrise...how things have changed.

Watch the salary figures for virgin blue(777) when they come out. Watch for jetstars new salary figures when they come out with 787. Watch for tiger airways figures. Watch for Etihad's figures when they finally sort out the aussie basing. I think you will find that the RAAF pay is lower than all but CX's.

Are you winding us up or just truly greatful to be earning $60K AUD as an SO in HKG?

[Blogsey]

NC,
firstly you're about $7k short on the max 2 stripe pay. edit: so yes, about a $40K pay cut with housing allowance (not including the 23% super we get....)
$60K as SO in HK? Wasn't referring to that. $92K on the unified DEFO scales. Are you saying any of those other airlines have a higher starting salary?? I didn't think so, but stand to be corrected...:ok:

[MAX]

HUD,

You interviewed for the position that paid 122k. If it was 97k back then would you have bothered?

Also, could you bite your tongue at work, knowing that colleagues who potentially joined a day earlier are on 25k more a year?

The VB/J* argument can be softened (in my eyes) by the MUCH quicker career progression.

Finally.... your Airbus rating is FREE with CX and there is no bond. Take what you will from that.

Good luck with the ever moving goalposts.

NC, are Etihad planning an Oz basing? !!

MAX:cool:

[Numero Crunchero]

I have a friend in Virgin Blue and he started in the mid 90s - I think they are or shortly will have sorted out their EBA so I assume it will be a little higher.

Jetstar pay around 90ish now but from some inside intel I know they accept that once 787 comes in they will have to pay more for FO/CNs.

Virgin blue are expecting to pay around 200-240 for CN on 777 - take 60-65% of that figure to get FO starting pay.

Qantas - I am going to ignore first 2 years as to be honest, after reading EBA7 and talking to my mates there, I am confused. Not avoiding it to be manipulative - just don't like quoting rubbery numbers. After 2 years you can expect to be earning about 120K+ as an SO on 400. Pay after that goes up and down depending on which rank and which fleet. Senior SOs on 400 earn $160K plus. A mate of mine is a 1st year FO on the 400 and discounting allowances he will earn about 220-230K - but he seems to have a good handle on how to milk the system. 330 FOs are currently only earning around 150-160K due to very low hours. Junior 400 skippers earn over 300K whilst senior ones get close to 400K. I think 737skippers get 150-160 but not too sure. 330 skippers pay is low at moment as they are on MGH - but in a more normal situation they will be on 230-250K. Currently command is about 13+years but should improve depending on how they manage things with jetstar. Maybe AUSSIE or someone in the know could comment!?

Over a career you will earn over 30% more by working for QF or EK - but I haven't taken into account 3% CX payrise or result of EBA8 or any future EK payrises!

MAX
they were advertised a few months back under some other company name for SYD. A mate of mine involved said there was some snafu with CASA equivalent in the middle east - so once sorted out they will be offered again.

Blogsey,
I was working on FLTLT incr5, grade 10 with service allowance = 107K. What am I missing?

[Blogsey]

What am I missing?

Flying disability $6633
UMA $600 odd (couldn't find exact number)

http://www.defence.gov.au/dpe/pac/Pay_Allow_Aug_07.pdf

[HUD Cripple]

Max,
I don't think I would've interviewed for the $92 664 vice $118k odd.

Standard story, kids, mortgage. 30k a year with a single income is a significant difference.

To be honest, I was pretty stoked to see a company recruit to FO Pax on a reasonable package. Looks like it was a flash in time. Bloody shame.

Re the same work different pay thing. If I took the job that would always sting, especially the first 4 years. I don't think I'd be offering first shout to the boys in the bar!

HUD

[Just wondering]

<< If you're in CX, unsure if you can change this CoS through a vote. Either way please help out your peer wannabe's anyway you can, we appreciate it! Surely it'll make further pay cases harder to justify if someone else is doing your job for much less.>>

Don't worry HUD the B scalers will stop it from happening !

[rsull]

Blogsey

I know of one Australian company that pays over AUD$100,000 for a first year FO and no cost for the rating. Once you have 500 on type the pay goes up by AUD$30,000. And yes you start at the higher pay if you have the 500 on type when you join.
(Wont say who it is but you need to have either a JAA licence or time on type) :ok:

[ACMS]

A good mate just started with Virgin Blue
He is on: $95,000 plus $15,000 allowances for the first 6 mnths
Then he goes up to $103,000 plus $15,000 allowances.

CATHAY DE F/O PAY IS A SLAP IN THE FACE.:=

[Numero Crunchero]

Thanks Blogsey,
good to know for if anyone chooses to rejoin it is going to be around 114K + mortgage assistance;-)
Some of us in the fragrant harbour are considered valuable commodities to ronny raaf. I believe they are so short in edinburgh they have a wgcdr in an acting FLTLT QFI role!

[poydras]

UPS 3rd year 106.000 usd
UPS 12 yr F.O 153.250

FEDEX 3rd yr FO 129.000 usd
FEDEX 12 yr. FO 158.000


Both Cpt max. 226.800 usd.
those are based on 84 hrs. line only (no per diem or overrides).

Question; Cathay as company consider itself as one of the best????

Or the above mentioned are superior??

what about UAL, where their morale is soo low right now...and their pay as been cut by 40%?????........
=================================================

CX 10 UFO pay 121$ x hr (usd)= 122.000 usd
Delta 10 yr. fo = 129 4x hr
Am. AA. 10 yr.Fo 135 x hr
United (with moral below the heels) 127 hr.

Just food for thoughts.

Poy

[Captain TOGA]

Yeah, but what kind of training will those guys give you. Remember-money is not everything...

[poydras]

what u mean training??
UAl 744 flies to bejing from ORD as well as China Airlines flies from bejing to ORD not???
Atlas cargo MIA Heatrow lands BAE Heatrow to MIA lands......................
Same Aircraft same procedures (different pay) different accents......
Do you know how many flights UAl does every day with almost 500 A/c's ???
?????
Continental Airlines B777 crew had to shut down an engine few months back over the Pacific....................

[sisyphos]

captain TOGA, you are either the biggest cynic alive or successfully brainwashed after too many years in this company.

[Kane Toed]

what kind of training will those guys give you?LOL - in fact ROFL! Wasted I fear...

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Poy,

at UPS, if hired today. Third year pay will be $124/hr x 75hour/month x 13 months..that's right, the months are only 28 days making it 13 months for a calendar year.

So that's:$120,900 basic gauranteed money for the year. Keep in mind though that most of our lines are built with the average of about 82-85 hours pay.

There's also another $4.50/hr for "international override". ($4400-ish/yr)

Perdiem is 3.25/hr. (roughly $12,000/yr)

And 12% fully vested retirement.

When the contract reaches its final year in 2012, the 2nd yr F/Os will be earning $155/hour.

Best part: NO STAR CHAMBERS

[Millstream]

Why on earth does anyone stick around for CX?

The new USA CX FO scale:

Y1 73,440
Y2 74,904
Y3 76,404
Y4 93,192
Y5 110,604
Y6 112,824
Y7 115,068
Y8 117,372
Y9 119,724
Y10 122,124

+ Duty Pay ~8,000 per year
+15% Retirement pay

CX are not really in the ball park.

Please tell me what I have missed?

Milly

[Millstream]

.........from what I can see a CX Freighter Captain will earn less than a UPS FO:

Y1 CX Captain: 127, 716
Y3 UPS FO: 135,408 guaranteed

Somebody help - surely I have made a mistake :sad:

Milly

[Apple Tree Yard]

No mistake. The numbers are accurate. Just shows how badly CX management have miscalculated thier 'generous' offer. This also does not take into account other large considerations for American pilots, ie: a) Retirement healthcare. This alone will push many US CX pilots into poverty once they retire. b) loss of Medicare benefits (not enough qualifying months, as CX don't pay into the scheme. c) loss of Social Security (again, CX don't pay into the scheme).

CX is like a drug, it at first gives you a bit of a rush, then after time you find it very unsatisfying, but you are trapped by years and inertia. Don't allow yourselves to be trapped into a very demoralising career. If you are a US citizen, 37 or under, leave now and join any US major.

[teedub]

Hey XCX-sohappy...
Good comp on the ups/unified pay scale...whats the vacation like?...do you get to drop trips if vac time touches a trip?...plus what are the lines like in ANC and MIA days on and off etc especially on rsv.....

Cheers

Teedub

[junior_man]

On the US Unified scale it is a raise for the freighter flying. Compared to COS 99 year 4+ after changing to pax fleet it is a $20,000 year paycut.

Health insurance for a 60 year old and spouse is around $1300. a month so big issue for retirees as no national healthplan in US until you turn 65

[ChairmanBoysClub]

I cant blame American folks for looking at other pastures. Being a European at CX certainly has its downsides too, partly due to the obvious lacks in its check and training philosophy as opposed to its counterparts in Europe and N. America. Being an N. American jockey at CX must be even harder knowing the relaxed athosmophere you guys have got in aeroplane operation and thats ment in a positive way. I would go now if I was you. Enjoy.

[poydras]

here we are;
FL 360 wst bound LNAV is on, check each separate sys. ck MEA, ck fuel, ck time to nrst airport [in case of failure].
what else we need to do in the next 10-15 mins????
can we say a word about football or where to find good Higgis????
any suggestions???:rolleyes:

[F Scaler]

It's not that bad for a 6 month apprenticeship on a -400. (3 for the ticket...3 for the notice) Cheap endorsement!:}
F Man

[dirty deeds]

VB Pay Scales

As of July 2008

B737 Capt $174,183
+ 9% super
+ App $10000 tax free allowances

EMB Capt $139,346
+ 9% super
+ App $10000 tax free allowances

B737 FO Level 3 $109,921
+ 9% Super
+ App $10000 tax free allowances

EMB FO level 3 $87,937
+ 9% super
+ App $10000 tax free allowances

All above + overtime @ B737 Capt App. $200 per hour etc.

Approximately 5 years to a command at present expansion and you get to live in Australia!

[XCX-SOHAPPY]

Teedub, (don't u mean AA? HAHA).

Yes, if vacation touches your trip, it is dropped, if a training event touches your trip, it is dropped (we get to bid for training dates). If you have a "carry over" trip that extends into the next month and you "bid to conflict"...one of them will be dropped..it is all pay-gauranteed. Went into the sim for landing recurrency a few months ago and my sim partner had an entire 15-day European tour completely dropped for it. I am glad the company is making money.

If you want to check out the lines on PDF files, send me a PM.

[t_jet]

Looks like I'll be in one of the last classes to join on the old freighter scale - class is Dec 07. Just wondering if I might do better by joining on COS 08 - possible delay switching to pax after 3 yrs with all the new UFO available for pax flying, more $$$ early on etc. What do you guys think ?

[Sike]

If you still want the job, get in before COS '08. In the long run, you will be better off.

[ScratchF15]

This is a tough call. You can definitely make more as an FO on the old USAB Freighter/PAX scale than the new UFO scale - assuming you are an FO for 10 or more years. But if you want an early freighter command (in 2-4 years), the money up front on the UFO scale is better. Keep in mind that COS '08 keeps you on a base for 4 years before you can take HKG.

It is tought to know what you will want until you have seen it - training, line flying, HKG, etc. I just wish the company would offer the UFO scale to all FO's so that new joiners making more than senior freighter FO's does not foster resentment. But, I seriously doubt they care. The company seems oblivious to human factors most of the time.

What am I missing guys? Are there other aspects of COS '08 that need to be considered?

[BScaler]

ScratchF15,

Here is another perspective you and others may wish to consider. And by 'you and others', I mean those looking for a job at CX at the moment, as well as those currently employed by CX, when considering what is facing the CoS 08 New Joiner in Jan 08.

Right Pay for Right Job
The Company want to change hiring practises and begin to hire pilots directly onto the pax fleet. But instead of paying these guys what is currently paid to pax fleet guys, they want to pay them an amalgamation of freighter and S/O pay, (the Unified Pay Scales in CoS 08). This is clearly not right.

If the Company wants S/Os, pay them S/O salary.
If the Company wants DEFO freighter guys, pay them freighter pay.
But if the Company wants DEFO pax guys, then pay them pax pay.
Right Pay for Right Job.

Some in the AOA, (Air Officers Association to those of you unfamiliar with the term our union goes by...), have actually been arguing that this amalgamation of pay scales is a fair way of looking at things bearing in mind the 'traditional entry streams' of the last few years bringing guys in as freighter F/Os, and S/Os. In their train of thought, they believe that it is a good thing all-round that New Joiners are being availed the opportunity to fly pax aircraft on joining.

Carrying this train of thought along just a little further, they would then be happy if New Joiners were given direct entry Capt slots whilst being paid freighter F/O salaries, because surely they would be happier being a Captain...?!

Those with this train of thought have been duped. I hope that clearer minds within the AOA will prevail and see the clear injustice taking place here.

[iLuvPX]

Another huge issue not being discussed is the fact that every COS 99 Pax FO on a north american base will be forced to take a PAY CUT when the base goes on-shore and COS 08 is imposed on them.

I thought part of the deal was that the company could only force a contract change if it improves conditions? Am I missing something here??

[Mr. Bloggs]

What you don’t realize is every pilot is on an individual contract. The AOA has no say in your contract. If the company imposes a contract and you choose not to dispute it, you accept it by acquiesces.:ugh::ugh:

That is what CX is counting on. So you choose if you accept it. If you do, don’t complain. It is as simple as that.:ok:

It comes down to the parapet thing again, don’t think many will dispute it especially if you are of a lower rank but then again it’s that FEAR thing again, Captains included.:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[BusyB]

B-scaler.

I am a little fed up of your whining at the AOA without telling us how you will make CX do what you want. There's been elections for the GC, where were you?:confused:

[ChairmanBoysClub]

Mr. Bloggs,

Spot on there, mate. The truth and nothing but the truth! :ok:

[ChairmanBoysClub]

BusyB

Mate. You may be tired of anybodys whining, well that is your problem. Looking at your arguments regarding B-Scaler's comments.
Hey he does not have to have solutions to problems, nor stand for election for the GC, in order to have an opinion about the AoA or anything else. Stop playing hat police.

[BusyB]

Gosh, I feel so chastised:}

[Numero Crunchero]

B scaler, well said.

IluvPX,
the company can't force you onto inferior scales. So in your case (USA) you would remain on your USAB99 scales and only the New Joiners would enjoy the lower salary scales. A bit like now with B scales - two people doing the same job but for different pay.

[BScaler]

Mr Bloggs

Perhaps I could paraphrase you by expressing some of your sentiments a different way. There is a saying that 'In order for evil to conquer, it is simply necessary that good men do nothing'.

You are right, junior guys will avoid putting their heads above the parapet for fear that it will get shot off at some point as their career progresses. It is incumbent upon the more senior of us to stand up for them. This is just such a clear case of injustice that it cannot help but be opposed.

Some clear leadership from the AOA and resolute backing from senior aircrew in determining clear opposition to CoS 08 is what is required. Junior aircrew would, undoubtedly, gratefully follow.

Be clear that what is being asked of the Company here is not the American-style see-saw of industrial relations where the aircrew get every cent they can screw out of the Company in good times, so the Company responds by slaughtering the aircrew in bad times! All that is being asked for is a fair deal here. No fisticuffs, drawn swords or pistols at dawn.

If the Company does actually follow through with putting the screws down on aircrew by the unilateral imposition of CoS 08, then I fear they will set the American-style see-saw in motion... I don't think they really want that. I think it is in everyone's interests to come to a fairer deal.

[MAX]

As a result of the Unified salary scale, future FOs will not be classified as Freighter or Passenger FOs. They will simply be FOs able to operate any aircraft for which they are qualified.

Excuse my ignorance...... does this open a door for these F/O's to gain a quick command flying both freight and pax? Or freight cpts to sign over to COS08 in order to fly pax rosters?

I was under the impression a large percentage of pax pilots COS99 dont fly freight under their contract.

Confused...

MAX:cool:

[Grivation]

Would someone please post the COS08 DEFO pay for Australian based. Ta

[Numero Crunchero]

$92,664
$94,512
$96,396
$117,564
$139,536
$142,320
$145,176
$148,080
$151,032
$154,056

Add 15.5% for PF(Superannuation) and 4-7% for HDP(hourly duty pay). They pay for health cover and medicare levy - not sure what will happen after onshoring though!

[t_jet]

Please can someone post the scales after Yr 10. I am trying to make a decision re cx, but I can only find Yrs 1-10. Thx

[Numero Crunchero]

Take year 10 salary, mutilply it by (1+CPI)^n then divide it by (1+CPI)^n, where n is the years after 10th year as FO. That will give you the salary for every year after year 10;-)

[Westcoastcapt]

Good morning everyone,

It's not rocket science, yet many of you cannot grasp the obvious. Why is that?

If someone accepts the new lower payscales, that is the new baseline for pay! A scales were undermined by people accepting B scales. B scales were undermined by freighter pilots taking ASL scales. The new DEFO scales undermine the whole lot even further.

Everyone likes to blame everyone else, but you have only yourselves to blame. No, it is not the senior pilots fault that B scale pilots accepted the lower pay scale. Using this same juvenile logic, one could say that our B scale members should be doing something to prevent the new DEFO scales.

Again, the reality is that nothing will change until people start to resign in droves and no one accepts a new position. Judging by the number of new joiners in the Headland, that is not going to happen any time soon.

If the options for you are so good out there, why are you still here?

Enough said!!!!

[BScaler]

Everyone likes to blame everyone else, but you have only yourselves to blame. No, it is not the senior pilots fault that B scale pilots accepted the lower pay scale. Using this same juvenile logic, one could say that our B scale members should be doing something to prevent the new DEFO scales.


Westcoastcapt, the fact is that I believe that everyone should be doing something to prevent the imposition of CoS 08. I for one am pointing out the deficiencies for junior officers and New Joiners in this agreement because if I do nothing and simply bury my head in the sand, then I will be complicit in the imposition of lesser conditions imposed on myself at some later date as a consequence.

As an example, and to illustrate what I mean, a year after the imposition of B-Scales for all New Joiners, COSAP 94 was imposed upon A-Scalers which included amongst other things, a reduction in annual leave from 8 weeks to 6 weeks. It is axiomatic to assume that the Company would do something similar in this current situation if an unopposed imposition of CoS 08 were to occur. Learn from history. Read the tea leaves.

I am a B-Scale member and I am doing something to try to prevent CoS 08 being unilaterally imposed in its present form which is patently unfair to junior officers and New Joiners. I believe we all should. I also believe that the AOA should take the lead in adequately representing the majority of the membership by publicly opposing CoS 08 as it stands.

[NewEssO]

is it even an option for the COS08 to fall through? This is terrible new.

After reading through these threads, I am starting to get sick to my stomach because it seems like the biggest impact COS08 will have are on new joiners like us.

I am trying to get based back home asap, and either it's the byproduct of COS08, or a direct intention? who knows. But the fact of the matter is that, it seems like it is discouraging foreign basing. What's the deal?

NEO

[t_jet]

Thanks, light has dawned after a couple of nights sleep back in my own bed ! Now I see why its not such a good deal.

Here's another thought: With the availability of new joiners to be assigned to bases, will this slow down the movement of COS '99 FO's moving across from freighter to pax after their 3 years freighter commitment ? Would certainly save the company some $$$.

[Numero Crunchero]

Absolutely! If all the pax FO base vacancies are filled by DEFOs, then there will be no slots available for freighter FOs to bid across to pax bases. So if they want to receive pax pay they will have to move to HKG. The DEFOs(UFO) are locked in the base for 4 years. The only vacancies will come from expansion and FOs leaving, presumably for upgrade. Given that CN bases are likely to fill up, and remain full for 10 years now(or longer if we get RA70;-), many senior FOs may choose to stay on a base rather than take a HKG command. This is starting to happen more and more frequently now!

So CoS08 is likely to be a very bad deal for current FFOs!