Emirates 777 Incident In Glasgow

[waves-dubai]

SAW THIS ON AIRLINERS.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7001366.stm

[Cityliner]

Looks like there will be two more jobs available at EK!
Provided no local was involved :ugh: but maybe there is an expat F/O to blame for.

Sorry couldn' t resist

[NG_Kaptain]

An error in judgement, hopefully your management will be understanding and forgiving.

[apron]

just back from GLA and seen the 777 with the left main in the grass......having spoke to airport worker apparently the CPT is management....possibly even the Ops. Manager.Director...obviously this will be confirmed over the next day or two no doubt. They were on taxy way A at GLA and turned onto RW27 at the intersection instead of the intersection for 23 which is not that impossible if you aren't familiar with the field. By the looks of it they realised and tried to turn back onto the taxy way too late and the left main wnt on the grass.....from its position I'd say the nose would of had to seen some grass action as well. I was fairly close....linig up on 23 after back tracking.

Hope no one looses any jobs......

[GoreTex]

it was the guy who wanted to increase the hrs for upgrade to 9000 hrs to create a shortage of upgradeable F/O's, then during a meeting an email of him was handed over to maurice.
in the email he asked his friends from SAA to send him their application for a DEC position ASAP because he didnt know how long he could keep the window open, another case of late justice.

[taperlok]

If it was K vd M the f:mad: wheel has finally turned.

[GoreTex]

nope it was his buddy, who was in charge of flt ops, a DEC

[fourgolds]

Gentleman , we are all human.

[thefoxandfirkin]

and I always thought off-roading was the national sport of Scotland :eek:

[GMDS]

But i'd bet a months productivity that he had his brief right down to length, letter and order as per the FCOM.
Life's a bitch, why can't it behave the way they brief......

[desertflyer]

Oh for the grace of God there go I!!!! Could have been any one of us...:uhoh:

[TangoUniform]

It will be interesting to see who was actually taxiing the aircraft. Of course the capt has final authority and control and all that. What I am saying is that if the f/o were taxiing, stand by for some new FCIs. The way things are done here, like no hand flying, no visual approaches etc., this would be the typical response-- no first officer taxiing.

[GMDS]

Right Warlock, i feel guilty. But the way these guys jump on you for a letter or a kilogramm, it sometimes just feels good to do the same ........
But, you're right, could have been me or anyone, sh&t happens.
Sorry

[Uplink]

This is like watching vultures fighting over a carcass. A mistake was made and thank god it wasnt worse. No one was hurt. We are all human and we all make mistakes.

Its like saying let the innocent man cast the first stone. What I see in the simulator would make alot of people on here retract the criticism they put down on these incidents.

I hope these guys are ok and they have my full support and sympathy.

[Wiley]

Anyone familiar with GLA would be very slow to criticise. Obviously, some you have done so are not.

Some of the sh1t I've read here I wouldn't expect from a 14 year old.

[pietru2006]

I have to agree that if you're not familiar with GLA you might jump to the wrong conclusion about this week's incident with EK26's 777. Maybe I can help to clarify things a little - I was on board the aircraft and I also trained for my PPL at Glasgow and flew out of there a lot in the 90's.

So - the 777 taxied normally all the way to the last taxiway (can't recall the designation) and turned left onto the undershoot of 23, typical for heavies to get another 200m or so of TOD. But instead of throttling up and taking off, the aircraft rolled slowly forward to the 23 threshold and then turned left off the runway at the first exit, abeam the threshold. I looked left as it turned and saw a landing aircraft on short finals carry out a go-around.

The 777 taxied forward a little and stopped (I assume at the hold line) and then moved forward again and turned left, attempting to regain the original taxiway leading to the undershoot. During this turn the left gear rolled on to the grass (only about 2 metres) and despite throttling up, the crew could not shift the aircraft. The rest is known.

I have photos taken at the time from outside when we deplaned and I'll try to post them when I can get them off my phone which won't talk to my laptop right now.

So I have two observations / comments: why did the crew abort the take off and exit the runway (any 777 drivers offer a clue here?) and it looks as if the captain or FO didn't appreciate how tight the final left turn is for a large aircraft. I'm not sure if you can follow the taxi centreline in such a case (777 drivers again?).

[Sonny Hammond]

If they didn't hit TOGA and commence the takeoff, they didn't actually abort it either, small point but one that could, actually would, be exploited by the press.


Also, the real question is the turn attempted physically possible in a 300?

[brabazon1]

I have worked with this captain on more than one flight and found him to be one of the most profficient and dedicated pilots around.

So if it can happen to him it can certainly happen to the rest of us.

[sexdriven]

I have also worked with him and agree with brabazon 1.

[pietru2006]

I have pics and a short video taken at the scene. I can't see how to post them here so anyone who wants them needs to give me an email address to send them. Or tell me how to post them, if that can be done.

The pics seem to show that the nosewheel was following the centreline. I think that might be the root of the problem.

[fo4ever]

Tango Uniform.

"no visual approaches"???

Did I miss something?

I fly them all the time so must be doing something wrong orther than saving the company fuel and time!

[chutny]

Iv been with emirates for 12 years, u might have been flying in some bush for that long....... but just for ur information whenever a local was involved in a problem with management, the decision was always more severe.... infact more than expats.
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny

[EGGW]

fo4ever. Hmmm, interesting handle. Unless i've been living on a different EK planet, always possible, visual approaches are only permissible if you have no other means of completing an instrument approach. Such as visual off a circling approach, or a self vectored ILS :ok::ok: :E:E

EGGW

[TangoUniform]

fo4evr,
Hmm. Can't remember the last time coming into DXB that I heard, "We have the field in sight, we will take the visual." "Cleared for the visual 30R". When was the last time you spotted the airfield 10 miles out and requested the visual approach. And I don't mean, intercepting the LOC, seeing the airfield and looking out the window. Don't forget, not being able to fly practice VNAV approaches. This is what I meant by EK's response to an incident.

Sorry for the thread creep......

[White Knight]

To split hairs:

From the FOM....
A pilot, on an instrument approach may revert to a visual approach:

. 1 If it is required by ATC seperation procedures blah blah
. 2 If it becomes more efficient to continue with the visual approach rather than complete the full instrument approach procedure

All subject of course to briefing the extra required bits........ The FOM of course doesn't say anything about having to be established on final before taking the visual. So you actually have a fair bit of leeway. To be honest TU, I don't think that telling DXB approach that you're visual is going to work with all the other traffic - but try it at places like EBB, ACC etc. It works nicely:ok:

[theidler]

'Emirates 26, line up and wait two three'

'Emirates 26, clear take off two three'


'Tower, Emirates 26 we need another two minutes'

'Shuttle 40 go around, break break, Emirates 26, take off clearance cancelled, taxi forward and vacate left on Bravo, hold at Alpha One'

Shortly:

The sound of wailing Trents - wailing dies down - a guttural utterance - "Ag, you doffie"


There but for the grace of God........?

Whatever.

[Yossarian]

I'm not sure what I'm missing. If the ac on approach had been asked to go around, why was the EK flight asked to taxi forward and vacate at all?

As to the previous posts, I really don't see what your interpretation of EKs visual approach policy has to do with anything.

[nolimitholdem]

WARNING!! MASSIVE THREAD CREEP!

@ scanscanscan,

for god's sake if you have so little confidence in your handling abilities that you believe a visual to be so hazardous then by all means don't be doing them! There are some decent risk management metrics you can apply to visuals just like any other procedure: day/night? familiarity with aerodrome? tune/ident the ILS for the appropriate runway and so on. Pretty basic stuff, or has the automagic and EK's pathological fear of flying the aircraft, and practising things like VNAV apps, gotten to you? There's a reason why visualsa are permitted with strict conditions in the FOM!

The GF A320 is a complete red herring, unless you're to suggesting that a 360 at less than 1000 AGL at night over unlit featureless water is a normal, accepted maneuvre on a visual. Besides, everything about that incident screams CRM disaster, nothing to do with being visual anyway.

Ok back to your regular programming...err...what were we talking about again? Ah yes...GLA...lovely place, wonderful people. Why I remember this one lass I met there, wee little slip of a thing...

[Ghostflyer]

Iv been with emirates for 12 years, u might have been flying in some bush for that long....... but just for ur information whenever a local was involved in a problem with management, the decision was always more severe.... infact more than expats.
E.g.: The expat captain who reported to duty drunk in London a couple of months ago was reinstated after jail.... where the local F/O who was drugged in Germany and didnt report drunk to duty, was fired without investigation... do ur research before u spread rumours about people who are paying ur bills.
Sincerely,
Chutny

Well that is utter crap, the expat spent 2 months in the scrubs and is now living in Australia and rebuilding his life outside of EK. The story with the local chap is also significantly different but irrelevant to this discussion.

The Gf A320 did a sort of night visual onto 12 at Bahrain

Actually a sort of night visual from 30 nms out using the VOR to self position followed by a missed approach high speed dive into the sea. Slightly different from being established downwind and turning in to land.

Unless i've been living on a different EK planet, always possible, visual approaches are only permissible if you have no other means of completing an instrument approach. Such as visual off a circling approach, or a self vectored ILS

Yep you've been living on the Planet Normal and have not quite interpreted the 'nuances' of the FOM correctly. There is a difference between a visual circuit approach and a visual approach on transition from an instrument approach, if you read it in that way, the light bulb will come on.

But none of that has anything to do with this incident. I have met the chap concerned and know of his reputation but really think he made a mistake that anyone else could have made. I feel most vulnerable on the ground and sometimes feel quite threatened blundering around in some of our more exotic (Glasgow excluded) locations.

[ruserious]

Yep, there but the grace of god... A very human error.
Have had various dealings with the Capt and he is both professional and motivated, the fact that he is management, just means he does not get as much practice, especially as AAR demands that his management pilots fly a minimal amount.

[Uplink]

Hey Tango Uniform,

2 nights ago having had to do a go around and a runway change I asked and got a visual for 12L. Fun!

[TangoUniform]

Ok girls, I stand somewhat corrected about the visual approaches. Shall we agree and say that EK doesn't "encourage" visual approaches. My post was basically about new FCIs that come out when there is an incident or whatever. And along those lines, do a little hand flying at altitude and watch you hand get "slapped". But again, this thread isn't about some silly FOM/FCI instructions, but rather what managements' response is to any incident. More restrictions. Maybe not in this case.:ugh:

I too know this captain, and IMHO, I will say he is one of the good guys, in every respect. Would really be a shame if anything at all came of this.

TU

[fractional]

Looks like there will be two more jobs available at EK!I don't think you have any respect for your fellow aviation colleagues... Mr Perfect! Remember: what goes around comes around...

[nolimitholdem]

oh c'mon don't sulk....where did I say you should land wherever you want, violate tape parameters (??) or even anything about handflying? I never did...you did.

My statement was more along the lines of procedures (and the mentality that precedes them) being rigid to the point of absurdity. At some point perhaps we'll realize the time and energy spent covering our asses could be better put to use performing our jobs safely and efficiently. Then again, being the Gulf, I have my doubts.

In actual fact I'm too damn lazy to do a visual. But this idea that pilots shouldn't be flying airplanes...is that an Airbus thing or something? :)

oh...and I'm sure the GLA crew is kicking themselves, just wishing they had had you to remind them of the L1011...would have made the difference, I'm sure. :rolleyes:

[scanscanscan]

Not much use kicking themselves after the event........should have had a heads up brief on previous Gf incidents.... the dangers of trying the impossible when ordered by ATC who know nothing of the taxi and turning abilities of GF/ EK widebody aircraft....
Possibly... it looks like the crew got caught out trying to do what they were told by ATC... sufficent pavement hardly being available for the manouvre asked for.....that is what happened twice at GF once in a L1011 at CDG and once at LHR in A340...still I am out of this thread you will be pleased to read.....expect a memo on the visual reference points on your aircraft and their use of guessing accurately where your wheels are....happy blind flying and blind surface manouvering...mind the wing tips..if you can see em.
Cheers and goodbyeee from Scan:):)

[Dessert Aviator]

Our Take off check list at GF was changed to add "Take Off" clearance received, supposedly after a management pilot got airborne without a clearance. I wonder why they did'nt stick in "Landing clearance" received while they were about it.:ugh:

[harry the cod]

Quick question. Was line up clearance accepted before the Cabin secure checks were received? If so, perhaps the first hole in the cheese.

Heard it happen on one or two occassions in DXB and can't for the life of me understand why people still do it.

As I said, question in this case. Not an accusation. This was also a training flight so workload higher than normal for TC.

Harry

[atiuta]

Take off clearance without calling ready is also a regular occurrence in LHR and many other airports. Quite simple really, don't accept any clearance you can't meet. Don't know if this had any bearing on this case or not and I'm not that sure it was a training flight either.

How significant was the clearance to vacate at that point by the controller?

[TwinJock]

The team at the back were not ready to go and the a/c was requested to vacate the runway. Would have told ATC to take a flying jump!

Worked with the P1 and have a lot of respect for this individual.

[emratty]

If ATC tell you to vacate the runway why the hell would you tell them to jump?:= you would have to have a bloody good reason to stay on an active runway the lack of cabin secure is not one of them. Next time you are told to go around by ATC i just hope you obey them, the principal is exactly the same as ignoring them on the ground.

[KRUGERFLAP]

what goes around comes around...

Maybe is the law of returning working for the guy that was controlling the nosewheel steering.

I hope not. But it can be.

[EGGW]

Its not rocket science, Do NOT accept line up clearance unless FULLY ready for departure, not matter you might think the cabin is nearly ready. The only time it maybe acceptable, is if you are the only aircraft movement for the next 10 minutes (or thereabouts), and ATC offer it.
Anyhow, no one knows if this is what happened. Awaiting the weekly digest with interest :zzz::zzz::zzz:

EGGW

[galdian]

EGGW - agree 100% although in fairness is there anywhere out there a captain/commander who hasn't, in the interests of efficiency and reasonable expectations, accepted a clearance that hasn't quite worked out "as one might have expected??"

TwinJock - personally I'll try and work with people as far as I can until the !!!!! really does hit the fan (you know, EFATO, the sort of things that can actually, well, ...kill you if not handled properly!) THEN I will in no uncertain terms tell others what I require, when, and at what time whilst trying to assimilate any damn fine ideas that may assist our present position! (see, slip in a bit of CRM in there :ok:)

Any explanations I will provide when the aircraft is safely on the ground, the passengers off to the terminal etc.

All/any bitching comes back to the fact that Emirates, who employ "the best", cannot afford to set up a competent upgrade program for "the best" they employ.
The management think it's "divide and conquer" and smart; I would tend to disagree.

[Itswindyout]

Just what will be the outcome of this incident.

see rumours for main thread and all details.

windy