United Air Lines, end of an era.....?

[411A]

Noticed that UAL has announced losses of US$20 million per day, a staggering ammount by any defination. In addition, Fred Dubinsky, the ALPA MEC chairman has announced that...."pay and benefit reductions are not on the table for discussion....".
We now see a very large US airline, controlled by its employees (ESOP), having just received record pay increases for its pilots, suffering massive losses.... one wonders if they will be around this time next year...or if they will indeed last that long.
Suggest that ALPA had better get used to lower salaries, because that is what will be needed for survival.
A new era.....without question.

[Notso Fantastic]

Yes, you've spent 1345 postings loudly proclaiming this point of view. I'm intrigued by your actual position in the airline industry (as opposed to what you repeatedly claim)? Shouldn't this be in Terms and Endearment? It's hardly 'News' if it gives you yet another chance to climb on your hobby horse.

[Donkey Duke]

It is sad to see United falter like this, but it will rebound. Everyone is quick to point fingers at the pilots and their contract. In contract negotiations the Union
can ASK for whatever they want for pay----Management doesn't have to settle. But at UAL the management had USAir on their minds---and settled with the pilots. Done. Now times are bad---but the pilots are blamed.
Hey, Management agreed to the contract. When you ASK for something---do you usually only ask for something you think you MIGHT
get? Or do you ask for the moon? The beancounters have to agree that they can afford it before they agree to it. Is UAL
in trouble? Yes. Will there be pay cuts?
Probably. If my airline was faltering like
that (and mine might be....) I would agree
to some sort of a pay cut----with a snap back
when times were good (agreed upon by a lot of smart lawyers). But don't blame pilots.

[DownIn3Green]

Yo Notso!!

How come the only posts I notice from you lately are slamming 411 or the Guv?

As someone pointed out to you on another thread, if you are all ready predisposed to being annoyed by what these contributors are saying, then why do you bother to open their threads.

Stick to something more to your liking... :cool:

[The Guvnor]

DownIn3Green - the problem for Comrade Notso Fantasic is that he's notso keen on anybody apart from other pilots (and only then other Nigels that fly long haul). He seems to think that there's notso much call for ground staff, cabin crew and definitely not pax! :D :D :D

The reality, of course, is that his views are notso relevant in the 21st Century; and he'll go the same way as the dinosaurs - notso much future for him then! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

Back to the topic at hand - as 411A correctly says, UAL is actually owned by its employees who appointed its previous CEO Jim Goodwin and other directors; and therefore only have themselves to blame for the present state of the company.

The greed of management coupled with the greed of the pilots has resulted in added cost to the company that is equal to around 10% of the losses - or $2m per day.

United's biggest cost, though, is its debt - the money it wasted on the failed US Airways deal; the finance costs of its new aircraft; the costs of its attempts to drive low cost competitors out of business.

I don't think UAL will survive; and I suspect that the same may well be the case of AA.

As we enter the aviation's second century, air travel will be as different from the past decade as it was compared between the 'genteel' era of the 1950s and the 'mass transit' era of the 1970/80s.

[Al Weaver]

>The greed of management coupled with the greed of the pilots has resulted in added cost to the company that is equal to around 10% of the
losses - or $2m per day. <

"Greed" implies to me a personality characteristic. Supported by history and predictable in the future. I choose to read it as too strong to be used appropriately here. I tend to water this down to inappropriate business decisions with unforeseen consequences and not to be likely repeated.

After all these folks have shown profit and intelligence in most of what they do.

[The Guvnor]

lomapaseo - ordinarily, I'd agree with you. However, recessions come around with great regularity every ten years or so and even I - as an untrained economist - was able to forecast this one (though of course not the events of 11/09). Every time a recession arrives, airlines are caught 'on the hop' with a huge overhang of newly ordered aircraft and pilots unions are demanding ever increasing salaries.

Those with wisdom tend to learn from experience; those without are doomed to repeat it.

Or to quote your own words: Supported by history and predictable in the future.

====

Breaking news from MSNBC.com: UAL has reported a US$1.16 billion dollar loss for this quarter.

THE LOSS INCLUDES $865 million in special charges and a $391 million cash infusion from the federal government after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, which involved two United planes and caused a steep drop-off in U.S. air travel. Excluding the unusual charges, the nation’s No. 2 airline posted a loss of $542 million, or $10.05 per share for the three months ended Sept. 30. That’s slightly better than the $10.27 consensus estimate of analysts surveyed by Thomson Financial/First Call but by far its most dismal quarter ever.

United already was deeply troubled before the attacks, suffering from the industry’s highest labor and operating costs and an economy-caused falloff in business travel, on which it depends heavily. Revenue for the third quarter was off 16 percent to $4.1 billion from $4.9 billion a year earlier.


[ 01 November 2001: Message edited by: The Guvnor ]

[Willie Everlearn]

Couldn't agree with you more, Guv.
United is on it's way out. Full stop. "Before it's to late" is a phrase that is no longer relevant in United's case.
It will be a sad day indeed when they turn out the lights and lock the doors, as they surely will. :(
If you cut the jugular it's imperative you stop the bleeding. If you don't stop the bleeding in time, one dies. :eek:
The financial bleeding at United has passed that point and will soon be dead. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Rest assured, disaster sits at the doorstep of many GREAT airlines and sentiment won't change that. :(
This is entirely a changed world and with it a changed airline industry. :confused:

[Huck]

You guys are getting me all nostalgic - same stuff I heard in 79-82 and 89-94. "The era of big salaries is over!" "The market will be dominated by low cost carriers!" "That last contract put the nail in the coffin!"

Companies adapt, employees sacrifice, the market rebounds, contracts get fat again, pilots buy big boats & planes (I'd prefer a nice 402C to a 411....)

[maxalt]

and even I - as an untrained economist -

Guvnor, what the hell is that? Just another asshole with an opinion. And we all have 'em.

[The Guvnor]

Exactly, Maxalt - so there's no excuse for us all not having foreseen it, is there? :D :D :D

[SOHCAHTOA]

Kin hell, talk about having the wake before the death !!
Yes united is in the **** , yes it's losing money hand over fist and yes its just wasted a ton of money on a failed USair deal. But right now 'almost' every airline is in the **** , losing money and unsure about what the future holds.
Will united cease to exist? b*gg**ed if I know and neither do the doom sayers here.(Guvnor, do you practice a lot or does it come naturally when you talk with such glee about others misfortune)

I believe it will become apparent to certain union reps that whats required is a concerted effort by everyone to make some short-term sacrifices to ensure the future of their company and its members jobs. This is not some annual wage abitation or plea for better benifits, we're getting close to **** creak, so lets not lose the paddle !!
Its a simple case of common sense, we either work together or we're f%cked.

This should not be about one group of employee's and the 'right' to keep what they have fought for. Its about 100'000 or so peoples lively hoods and their families.

[ 02 November 2001: Message edited by: SOHCAHTOA ]

[411A]

Another four UAL 727's arrived at VCV on 02 Novenber (together with five TW DC-9's) for long term storage....as in ...sliced up like so much salami.
UAL has really big problems, and the GOV was right when he mentioned the major one was debt.
I wonder how the "rest" of the UAL employees feel now that Dubinsky has stated...."pilots' will not compromise"?
Must be nice on top of the heap, pi@@ing on those below.
The end is near for UAL... :eek:

[strobes_on]

Where is VCV ?. Is it one of the desert storage areas ?

I have heard that 10 aircraft per day are arriving at these types of facilities for long term stroage.

[411A]

KVCV ....Southern California Logistics Airport (the old George AFB) will be home to over 200 aircraft in storage...soon.

[WhatsaLizad?]

411A,

Give us a break. Those 727's as well as AA's were due to be hacked up within 6 months anyway.

Exactly how many Viagras have you spent to keep your little orgasms going about UAL/AA/DAL ? Any casual aviation observer, (I guess you and guv are professional observers), realizes the posturing and brinksmanship being played by both sides at the moment so don't pop another Viagra just yet.
On a side note, just what exactly happened in your past that keeps you spewing your venom? Did you have a tough time at the interview? Did you have a little trouble with the AA ink blot test? The leather patches on your sportcoat fall off during the interview? Did the UAL nurse giggle when you unzipped for your pre-employment drug test? Or did The Delta and AA guys have a wild party at your house, (while you were a some 6 week contract around the world). Sorry I missed it, heard your wife had fun. ;)

They are all playing a little high stakes poker at the majors now, not russian roulette. Save your Viagra, maybe you will be home for the next crew party :)

[411A]

Well then WhatsaLizad....I never did apply to any US major, always worked overseas as a contract pilot, no tax, free house (and sometimes, auto), 42 days annual leave, FOC tickets, that sort of thing...not a bad deal actually.
But, hey....thanks for your concern.

You are right about the 727's, they were going to be parked anyway, 737's, DC9's etc included. Interesting to note however that UAL is going to park 14 747-400's, and these are ah.....rather newer aeroplanes. The 777 cleans their plate on most routes. UAL is scheduled to park 117 total aircraft.

[vmommo]

UAL career expectations.....

I am considering a pilot career with United Airlines. I was wondering if someone could run the career prediction program to see when I could expect to make 400 captain if I were hired today.

Thanks in advance!

[xsbank]

Pilot's salaries have never killed an airline. Even the Guvnor's statement that pilot salaries are causing 10% of the losses - if you cut that 10% (what about the other 90%??) would you expect the pilots to work for free? What a crock - pilots just happen to have the only part of the operating cost of an airline that a manager thinks is negotiable when times get bad - try getting your fuel 10% cheaper coz you're having problems, or knock 20% off your parts bill or your terminal fees coz you're having a bad quarter. Enough of all these accusations of greed - the pay packet is just a very small part of the cost of operating an hugely expensive device like an airliner and for all the crap I have had to go through to get this job and the myriad persons who want me out so they can have it for themselves, does the expression "pound sand" mean anything to you?.

In the past, some pilots have succumbed to the pleas of poverty laid on thick by management, and because we are human, we can sometimes be persuaded. In the last round of prosperity, pilots made up what they had lost or given up in past recessions; still there are people who spout this drivel about pilot salaries killing airlines. I for one am sick of it - keep your hands off my pay and get back to managing. When all of the other costs of operating drop, including fuel, parts, fees, capital costs, taxes and the manager's salaries, come to me cap in hand and we'll talk.

[skymarshal 1]

Anybody know which airline the white tail B777s are from which PIA were looking at earlier this week somewhere in the US, apparently they are considering four aircraft.

[caulfield]

UAL can be saved if the pilots do what they know they must.Hey,its better than the other option.And if the pilots turn it around,it will be a kick in the teeth to the management that screwed things up in the first place.
Purveyors of doom and schadenfreude like Guvnor and 411 sure like the sound of their own voices dont they...
The beauty here is that the pilots have their destiny in their own hands if they act now before its too late.Not many pilots are ever given that option.

[411A]

Yes....and pilots being pilots', the FIRST consideration is ah......greed. :D

[GlueBall]

UAL management got way behind the power curve even before Sept 11th by not scaling back substantial operations and employes. Management had lost focus of its core business product by indulging in expensive ancillary activities like the business jet division and the USAir merger fiasco. Present day scale back is too little too late. Only a management miracle can keep this company out of Chapter 11. And to emerge from probable bankruptcy would require further large scale downsizing. The economic recession is deep and brutal and without imminent recovery.

I remember Eastern Airlines in the early 1980s when it was the "Free World's" largest air carrier (35 million pax) and when its baggage handlers were making $35K. "The Wings Of Man" ten short years later had imploded. Product of employe greed and gangster management. :(

[Ignition Override]

If United declares Chapter 11, how much would they threaten to cut salaries? Even without Chapter 11, will United be in a much weaker condition than the new American (trying to digest TWA like an anaconda with a large mammal inside it)?

If USAirways is forced to declare Chapter 11, won't the Anointed Perfumed Princes known as Messr's Wolf and Gangb**g, woops-I meant Gangwal, both have ironclad "golden parachutes"? How did they seduce their USAirways Board of Directors into believing that the merger could not fail to take place? Were all board members given certain "inducements"?

Mr Guvnor (the real one): how do you grow such a thick skin-is it the cold salty North Sea wind or the tasty ale?

Y'all are lucky that I sat down at the computer sober and left it sober. No Newcastle Brown or Scottish ale here, not even Shiner Bock from Texas.

[Donkey Duke]

The Guvnor knows a lot about airline downfalls---I believe he had one himself.
Maybe one in Africa? Did you run one down there old chap? Or was that just a nasty rumor? His glee reflects his own shortcomings. Hey Guv, could YOU do any better running one of the major U.S. airlines? No? That's what I thought.

Contact Departure. Donkey Duke :cool:

[Donkey Duke]

Next in line is 411A.

Hey 411A----jealousy sucks, doesn't it? You know it does. You are also jealous of cab drivers, aren't you? You walk everywhere, don't you? Admit it! You think pilots shouldn't fight for what they have. Take what life gives you and don't say a word----that's your motto. You're lame. Thanks.

Donkey Duke :cool: :cool: :cool:

[The Guvnor]

Hey, Donkey - I see thay you're persisting in trying to make an ass of yourself. You can stop now - you've succeeded! :D :rolleyes: :D

As 411A has said in the past, UAL's problems are not just attributable to the pilot's greed but also to that of management. From what I've seen, there seemed to be a complete reality failure on the part of management and the pilots union (in particular) with regard to downsizing before the 11th September - they had got themselves into a macho micturating contest with American and Delta over who's the biggest and who pays their pilots the most - forgetting entirely about the majority of employees (who also happen to be shareholders in the company) who didn't receive anywhere near the same level of pay increases.

Skmarshal 1 - I believe these were UAL aircraft.

Ignition Override - probably both! Hopefully you'll be over here in the not too distant future and we can sup some 'heavy' together.