MAYDAY over the Bay of Biscay

[Viscount Sussex]

Any details on the MAYDAY call over the Bay of Biscay this afternoon around 13:45z-14:00z? It was picked up on 121.5 by a MyTravel aircraft and reported to Brest.
I hope the poor bugg*rs were alright.
VS
:sad:

[BOAC]

No - but there was one yesterday, all in Spanish.

[javelin]

Heard the one yesterday coming out of IBZ. Hapag Lloyd took the mayday - someone with an engine failure.

Didn't hear any more.

Any clues ?

[miles offtarget]

Yes I heard it this afternoon too..well some of it, as we were also speaking to ATC at the time and briefing for the descent. Understand that a Globespan aircraft was involved in the message relay so we didn't action anything. I hope that it all worked out too.

Keep me posted.

MoT

[411A]

I wonder, what is this fixation with 'mayday'?
IF it is an engine failure, transport aircraft are are quite capable (if properly loaded and flown) to return to a suitable airport, so why all the fuss?

Me thinks...'wound up like a cheap watch' pilots.:eek:

[faheel]

and how do you know it was a transport a/c ?? and it is a pretty big deal.

Oh lemmee see someone has made a mayday call, oh well no big deal, let someone else sort it out, Sheesh !!!:(

[Kaptin M]

Ever thought that the Mayday as a result of engine failure, might have been because it was THE engoine that had failed?

The ONE and ONLY engine.

If it's a twin-engined transport, which 411A has claimed to have never flown, then the checklist calls for a landing at the nearest suitable airport. So a PAN call would at least be expected.

You're very quick to deride fellow professionals, 411A - however that epistle you gave us some time ago, about taking off in an aircraft with one engine delivering an unknown, and unreliable amount of power, greatly reduced your credibility as a true professional pilot, albeit a decade or more ago now.

[IcePack]

Why all this reluctance to declare a Mayday. It gets you priority and it can always be cancelled.:)

[Andu]

Having waded through the 121.5 (mis)use thread, I'm surprised some people here aren't claiming the need for students to be able to call practice mayday calls, "...so they're be confident the system works should they ever need to make a real one" (!)

[Viscount Sussex]

My dear chap (Arizona Airline Captain), it's not a case as you suggest of a fixation with 'mayday'.
Were you there or heard it? No, but must have the two pennies worth, just in case.
How did you arrive to the conclusion it was a transport aircraft? God only knows and frankly who cares. :confused: But hey, what do I 'wound up like a cheap watch' pilot know about it.
Well, I heard some of it and the poor guy putting the mayday, just kept calling mayday and it sounded 'a little' concerned. We thought at the time.... poor bugg*er….put yourself on his or their situation. But of course big airline captains don’t worry about things like that, at least those that fly a real mahogany desk airliner. :D
Anyway, I just hope there was a safe outcome.
VS :ok:

[Topslide6]

We picked up one yesterday on 121.5 too at about that time, and ourselves and a company a/c relayed the message to Brest, although we're neither MyTravel or Globespan so I wonder if it was different 'event'? Hope there wasn't another one. :(

The mayday callsign we heard gave a position report in both French and English that was somewhere in the region of Nantes. There were no intentions or problem stated in the mayday. About 10 mins later we picked up an intermittent ELT before we switched frequencies. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a commercial aircraft.

I hope the chap made it ok. That's the second one in two days we've heard over France. :(

411A, I think one engine on a two engine aircraft is serious. Regradless. That increases 10-fold if fire is involved. No engine on a 1 engined aircraft hardly qualifies as being 'wound up like a cheap watch'.

TS6

[blue up]

Errr.....Spanish ATC doesn't recognise PAN as an emergency call, as I recall.

Got a problem, make a Mayday call.

[Pilot Pete]

If 411A was a true professional, he would realise that not all companies follow HIS take on SOPs. Many, many airlines require a mandatory MAYDAY due to an engine failure on departure. Why a Mayday?

1. As pointed out, many countries do not recognise PAN.
2. It gets their attention (or at least should) and sets their emergency plan into action.
3. Without further dialogue they know you have a problem and will (should) not bombard you with further requests for info, which they invariably do if you don't declare a problem fully and try to play it down.....
4. No reason why you can't downgrade after everything is sorted and you are ready for the approach.

So, to sum up, the PROFESSIONAL pilots will use the most efficient course of action available to them, under the prevailing circumstances to ENSURE priority handling by ATC when it is required. Losing an engine on take off, even on a twin jet transport is, IMHO just such a circumstance as I may be deviating from a SID (climbing straight ahead) or carrying out an Emergency Turn, which ATC don't know about, with restricted climb performance and also carrying out recall drills. Also factor in CRM issues (like very inexperienced right seat occupants) which many EU airlines employ and the PROFESSIONAL captain would be doing a good job IMHO when he called MAYDAY.

Wound like cheap watches? Sounds like a RUSTY OLD TIMER too set in his ways to consider anything other than his own opinion could be correct.:D

PP

[411A]

Yep, 'mayday' and especially 'Pan'....well overused.
It must be a European thing.

I was in the sim one day with a new co-pilot, and after an engine failure at rotation, he was so busy calling 'mayday' on the radio, he couldn't/didn't bother to select the landing gear up, when asked.
The check pilot was definitely not amused.
In fact, he threw him out of the upgrade program....as in, gone.

[egbt]

411A

So, Topside6, you heard a 'mayday' call, yet did nothing about it?
Did you try to assist?

Perhaps you should read the post

and ourselves and a company a/c relayed the message to Brest

also how is

he was so busy calling 'mayday' on the radio [..]

relevant? The co-pilot failed to remember to aviate, navigate then communicate. There is nothing on this thread to suggest that.

[GotTheTshirt]

Well Done 411A
That one chappie who wont be bothering anyone:mad:

[dusk2dawn]

Happen to buy one of those "OEI-middle-of-the-night-over-the-Bay-of-Biscay" T-shirts a year ago. Despite it being a rock solid US westcoast product with the largest P&Ws available for the type we were forced to descend 15.000 feet to fly level. We didn't actually call mayday but being forced to descend we did declare an emergency.

[KLMer]

Who is this 411A, im so glad i do NOT fly with him, how can a mayday or pan call be over used, that is the biggest load of S*** I have heard...

411A see your one of those guys who like to get people chopped in the sim rather than helping them, what a nice fellow you are.

If i was flying with you and i lost an engine make no mistake i WOULD delcare a MAYDAY, and argue with you later.

Can i suggest you make useful posts on here or otherwise GO AWAY!

[Centaurus]

Also factor in CRM issues (like very inexperienced right seat occupants) which many EU airlines employ

Ye Gods - I hope the media don't read this and report that very inexperienced pilots fly for many EU airlines. I know it is true but isn't it scary- especially when passengers believe in all innocence there are two experienced polers up front - not apprentices..

[NG708]

Well, as one of the crews that did hear the Mayday and helped relay it to Brest, it certainly sounded serious.

A rather worried Frenchman by the sounds of it making the call. Possibly a turboprop by the sounds in the background. Unfortunately my French is only passable at best and from the speed and anxiety in this guy's voice, I couldnt pick up much. To be honest couldn't swear that it wasn't a ship either.

Relayed that we had heard a Mayday on 121.5 , in French, to Brest. We then heard the guy passing what sounded like co-ordinates and heading to another controller.

Would hope the guy is OK and that it wasn't serious. If anyone knows the outcome, would like to know.

On an aside - if he had broadcast in English, we would all have known what his trouble was, where he was and what help he needed. Might have allowed more or faster help to be obtained if more of the people listening out can understand you. However, I suppose we might all revert to our native language if in dire straits.

[AIMS by IBM]

A MAYDAY cal is used when there is imminent danger to the aircraft or it's occupants.

However, that being the rule, is is not always evident that a PAN call will get noticed by ATC all over the world.

The use of the MAYDAY call can therefore be justified if subsequantely it is made clear that the full blown emergency services are not needed.

Best practice is to start with a PAN call if conditions do not justify a MAYDAY and if no reaction by ATC then just go ahead with the MAYDAY.....believe me you WILL be able to defend yourself.

[411A]

>>Ye Gods - I hope the media don't read this and report that very inexperienced pilots fly for many EU airlines. I know it is true but isn't it scary- especially when passengers believe in all innocence there are two experienced polers up front - not apprentices.<<

I think they know already.
Young guys spring loaded to the mayday and pan panic stations.
Ain't it grand?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[whatdoesthisbuttondo]

411A, I hope that when you call MAYDAY your fellow pilots show the lack of consideration that you obviously would.

Not only do I hope that I never fly with you, but I hope I nor anyone I know have the misfortune of being a passenger on one of your flights.

I've read many an accident report that begins with a pilot with an attitude like yours.

Have you thought about retiring?

[Shitsu_Tonka]

3000+ posts and still belongs in a:

http://www.wdmemories.com/toolbelt.jpg

[ive348]

We had a situation yesterday where an aircraft called MAYDAY because one of the engines failed. They were in the final stages of their climb to cruising altitude when one of the two engines just shut down. I can imagine this was rather unpleasant for the crew as it seemed they were unsure at first what exactly happened. Glad to report they made it safely into EHAM (with thanks to the chaps in Brussels and Amsterdam ACC for the assistance)

[Pilot Pete]

We didn't actually call mayday but being forced to descend we did declare an emergency. And the internationally recognised method of 'declaring an emergency' is?:rolleyes:

So you avoid the big 'M' word and potentially cause confusion to a controller who has English as a second language and may not be able to interpret your definition of an emergency, but one that doesn't warrant a Mayday?

Very professional.

PP

[Telstar]

Pilot Pete, I agree. "Declaring an emergency" is for Hollywood stars in action movies. It means nothing.

If there is a problem don't flute around. Mayday gets peoples attention sharpish and gets you what you need immediately. When your back on the ground afterwards you can discuss the rights and the wrongs.

I spend most of my working days in Italian airspace, communication is a major problem and I have experienced that any questions that deviates from standard RT usually has the controller stumped. Our company demands a PAN if EFATO, and I play that game in the sim, but if it happens for real I will use the word MAYDAY!

[Viscount Sussex]

I think most people know (or will know at the time) when to put a mayday call, with or without the Arizona cowboy's approval. He makes controversial statements (talking rubbish) to create his own debates and boost his ego. Look at some of his previous posts (if you have time to waste) and you’ll see him hijack every threat possible with the cliché “I remember when…..that co-pilot…..” :bored: :zzz: Actually, I wonder if he ever flew (hands on) an aircraft or just heard too many war stories in the bar. Hey, I’m doing what he wants. I am discussing him! Sorry. :O
The business of declaring a Mayday or not has been discussed many tmes before on this forum.
Let’s go back to the initial post. Obviously there isn’t an ATC member or crew member out there that knows what happened? Thanks.
Once again, hope that everything went well for the aircraft and its occupants.
:ok:

[5milesbaby]

From a UK perspective only Mayday or Pan is recognised as an emergency call, however both pilots and ATC can decide if one should be declared. If an a/c loses 50% or more of its power then a Mayday will automatically be declared. ATC Towers have more catergories describing emergencies from local standbys to full emergencies to ground accidents, and they alone decide what to apply and dependent on which they choose decides if any or all the local flashing blue lights greet you at the runway threshold. This has been discussed at length many times before, a search of rumours and news and also ATC Issues will drag the threads up.

[Fox3snapshot]

Ladies and Gentleman...don't let ol 411A wind you up!

Whilst he sits on his rocking chair sucking on an unlit pipe and thinking of the good ol days...he is out in the pasture and its just best to give the ol horse some sugar cubes, pat it on the nose and let it think it still runs the stable...:p

Good to see you back in form 411A...and leave the littl'uns alone!:=

;)

[411A]

Out in the pasture you say, Fox3...ah, well, hardly.
Still working, flying from time to time, so not retired just yet, thanks to ICAO.:)

Now, for an engine failure in a twin, yes a mayday might be appropriate, but if you tried this in US airspace, I suspect you would not get as much attention from ATC as a simple 'emergency' call.

And as for a 'pan' call, I suspect ATC would wonder which frying pan you are referring to...:ugh:

[Captain Airclues]

411A

I'm sure that what you say is correct. However, shouldn't ATC at least have a working knowledge of www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0603.html ?

Airclues

[Sven Sixtoo]

There's the transatlantic difference.

A 'simple' emergency call isn't recognised in my world. PAN gets attention, MAYDAY gets instant response. "I am declaring an emergency" will suffer cocktail party syndrome (not significant enough to penetrate the background noise).

I spend my standby time listening to 121.5, 156.8 and 243.0 and reacting (or not).

And the only time in 28 years I have transmitted MAYDAY an engine had stopped in the circuit and I really fancied landing on the cross runway, so telling everyone in forceful terms seemed appropriate.

Sven

[dusk2dawn]

Pilot Pete et al.: This tread subject went from a question about a possible emergency to whether to declare an emergency in case of OEI.
414A chose not to think so.
My 10 cents was only to inform 414A that even the best American twoholer around was subject to some modified behavior when OEI. Behavior which just might require assistance.
Annex 10 and Doc 9432 defines distress as follows:
Distress: a condition of being threatened by serious and/or imminent danger and of requiring immediate assistance.
Now, why do you assume that we were subject to imminent danger and required immediate assistance? And what does "English as a second language" have to do with it?
We had a 5-5 connection with Madrid ATC and, using the prescribed ICAO phraseology, we coordinated descent and turn toward suitable airport before danger arose.
BTW: Neither Spain nor the United States have notified ICAO of differences to Annex 10 (Communication Procedures including those with PANS status).

[28L]

FWIW I had an engine failure on rotation in a big twin at Heathrow a few years back. Gave a quick 'Mayday XXXXX engine failure' - not because we were in any immediate danger, but because it would alert Tower that we had a problem & he shouldn't expect us to to 'do the expected'. We then carried out all the necessary checks in blissful p&q, without being hassled for frequency changes etc etc.
ATC were fantastic (that'll be a 'no delay' next time I fly guys :) ) & all ended up happily ever after.
No regrets on the Mayday. I'd do the same tomorrow.

[NG708]

So back to the original post - does anyone know what the Mayday was about?

[Viscount Sussex]

NG708
I think we are wasting our time on this one. Somebody would've said something by now if they knew what it was about. But the old chestnut about the correctness of mayday calls was brought in (courtesy of our “mate” the cowboy) and that’s the best way to kill a thread or turn it into the same boring stuff. Oh well. I am sure this is not the first time and certainly not the last one. Just keep giving it sugar cubes and the old horse will be happy.
:bored:

[Tuned In]

I think someone needs to check on the definition of Mayday, as compared to Pan. I believe that the main difference is that Mayday means "requiring immediate assistance". Is 411A suggesting that a crew losing an engine never requires immediate assistance? Perhaps he needs more CRM training - use the resources you have, and they include ATC.

The fact that one pilot got his priorities wrong in a sim practice certainly provides no evidence that Pan or Mayday calls are overused. I have heard some exemplary emergncy calls.

[Jump Complete]

Would 411a say that mayday declared to get attention and help when a serious problem arises that subsequently gets resolved and ends in a safe landing is unnessersary? I declared a mayday in a light aircraft a few years ago (in the UK talking to US military controllers providing a LARS service) when I had a serious problem because my initial low key attempts at getting help got nowhere. The mayday immediately got the help I needed and allowed me to resolve the rapidly deteriating situation. Does the fact I landed safely mean I didn't need to declare a mayday? I feel if I hadn't I wouldn't be here typing this.

[egbt]

Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan, Pan-Pan

wind up alert! :ugh: :mad:

(or should it be Mayday :E )

[Andu]

I can't help but think that this thread, (and countless other threads) would be far more interesting and remaining on its original point if only everyone put one patently silly and all too frequent poster on their 'ignore' list.

[woodpecker]

I'm with you all the way Andu, he joined my "ignore list" a couple of years ago.

[Final 3 Greens]

Guys

He's a saint compared to Captain Ed - anyone remember him.

And once you get used to his "good ole boy" style of delivery, he's really quite amusing, as well as being utterly predictable, which is reassuring in this fast moving and ever changing "world in which we live in" (to steal a few words from Paul McCartney.)

Give the old buzzard a break :} He needs to learn Spanish to deal with the hordes of latinos who are about to replace all the Europeans on holiday in the USA - won't be easy at the same age as Methusulah.

[Johnbr]

Few years back,lost an eng.on lift-off on 737classic,didn't say Mayday,nor Pan,just told Tower what happened,requested climb straight ahead to 2000' AGL,performed the C.L.called for vectors for an ILS straight in and landed safely...Did it all wrong????I guess it very much depends on the circumstances of the situation you're in.My case it was in a period of very light traffic at the airport I was,good weather and all.I do agree that if you're in a place that's unfamiliar to you or in bad weather,heavy traffic and all,I would go for the big M or pan ....
Anyway,any news on tha ACTUAL mayday???????:cool:

[411A]

>>Few years back,lost an eng.on lift-off on 737classic,didn't say Mayday,nor Pan,just told Tower what happened,requested climb straight ahead to 2000' AGL,performed the C.L.called for vectors for an ILS straight in and landed safely...<<

Well done, as it should be.:ok:

[DickyPearse]

Well done, as it should be.:ok:

I seem to remember awhile back an aircraft mentioning they were low on fuel without using any dramatic language.....it wasn't prioritised and ran out of fuel while being vectored on the long route home. I know there were other factors at play in this incident, but it does highlight the need to ensure all parties are aware of the seriousness of a particular situation.

[BEagle]

I disagree, 411A. Losing 50% of thrust on take-off certainly merits a "(C/S)MAYDAY x 3, engine failure, wait out" if nothing else.... Why not? What is there to lose by declaring an emergency in this way? Far better than the bumbling "Ah, sir, we err, are..err requestin'...errr....vectors...err, for a....err, problem...errr...sir,..errr...as of this time....err, sir" heard from some.

But the rest of that emergency sounds to have been well handled.

[HeathrowDictator]

I agree with BEagle and others with his line of thinking. As an ATCO I would much rather a pilot was over-cautious than didn't tell me anything. Similarly, if a pilot reports one engine out on a twin aircraft he will get an ATC "Full Emergency" which includes calling the outside services in. Yes, it may be a procedure landing, however it is always best to do too much for a situtation than not enough and have to explain to the subsequent board of enquiry if they do crash and burn.

-HD-

[drag required]

Flight Safety Foundation:

"International Civil Aviation Organization procedures for declaring mayday or pan pan eliminate ambiguity about an aircraft in distress or an aircraft in an urgency condition, respectively. Declaring an emergency generates maximum assistance from air traffic controllers worldwide, but delay in declaring an emergency may create confusion or narrow the pilot’s options."

http://www.flightsafety.org/pubs/ao_2000.html

http://www.wingfiles.com/files/comms/aomarapr00.pdf

cheers:ok:

[BEagle]

Actually, 411A's posts provide an interesting historical counterpoint to the modern age. Whilst many might consider them somewhat 'redneck blunt', they do provide another perspective and, as we all know (I hope) a good captain should listen to all inputs before making a decision. Hence the 'good ol' boy' does actually have a valid part in our PPRuNery, so please let's not be unreasonably insulting.

[Stockpicker]

At risk of getting flamed meself (and I'm reading in because I like to understand how airlines work, not because I know anything about the poor guy whose predicament started the thread) I felt I had to point out that, on the English/French language thing, "Mayday" is, er, French. :O

[PPRuNe Radar]

Actually 'Mayday' is anglais .... 'M'aidez' is probably the French ;)

[EastCoaster]

Not so long ago, Duty ATCO at my unit received a non-urgent call from the parent ACC concerning a recently departed jet airliner (twin-engined), advising that said airliner was diverting back. Reason given was "Technical Difficulty". No further info was given in initial call, and the ATCO duly declared a Local Standby as per Emergency Orders.
On further investigation (through the ACC), it was discovered that the aircraft was suffering from a hydraulic leak, and as a result did not have full power available in both engines. At no time however, did the crew declare any sort of emergency!
On receiving this information; the ATCO immediately upgraded to a Full Emergency (with all the associated Bells & Whistles!), and from what I hear, the crew were even a bit miffed when they were greeted by the luminous blue welcoming commitee on landing!
The question in all of our minds though: why so reluctant to declare an Emergency?
If assistance may be required, then why not make use of it? Surely the crew couldn't have known for definite that the leak wasn't going to get worse, with all the possible scenarios that could have resulted from that (Control Surface problems; high-speed heavy landing, the aircraft had only recently departed after all! etc.) There are enough historical precedents out there to illustrate what I'm driving at.
Anyway, in the end the flight returned safely, thankfully. The aircraft didn't fly again for quite some time however (draw your own conclusions).
Unrelated as this little anecdote is to the original question with which this thread was started, it is nonetheless very relevant to the topic.
Even if (for whatever reason) you as a pilot should decide not to declare a Pan or Mayday at a time of difficulty or distress, we as ATCO's will decide our level of response to the situation based on the info available to us.
However, were the above scenario slightly different in that the ATCO concerned had not declared an Emergency because the crew had not done so; and the hydraulic leak that was the cause of the problem turned out to be worse than actually occurred, how different would the outcome have been?
I know we'd have preferred it had the crew declared at least a PAN, if for no other reason than to remove any possible ambiguity. At least that way there wouldn't have been any possibility of time being wasted in getting the necessary resources mobilised!

[green granite]

Actually 'Mayday' is anglais .... 'M'aidez' is probably the French ;)
Shurely Mayday is merely the phonetic pronunciation of the French M'aidez
and therefore it’s still French :E

[SIDSTAR]

An engine failure in any aircraft IS a serious incident. In a twin, it's very serious and should warrant a MAYDAY call. That'll get you noticed and give you the required level of priority.

If/when you get everything sorted out satisfactorily and the aircraft is fully under control, there is no fire etc then it can be downgraded to a PAN if required.

It still requires a landing at the nearest suitable airport. Better to be down here wishing you were up there ....

[The Trappist]

To throw another ten-penny-worth into the 'Mayday' language debate...
'M'aider is the infinitive form of the reflexive verb "help me" within French syntax; however, it is not used as a stand-alone imperative command in standard French, but it is so used in some French patois. This has led some etymologists to claim that what the convention really meant was an abbreviation of the phrase, "Venez m’aider" ("Come help me"). "M'aidez" (which is not grammatically correct either in standard French) is considered an acceptable alternative. In both cases, however, mayday must be considered as a rather crude English phonetic representation. It should be also noted that while in English the phrase is only used in distress situation, in French it carries no more sense of urgency than its English translation "help me".
What French people in distress actually shout is, "Au secours!"'
Bottom line...In many (most?) parts of the world a 'Pan-Pan' call will evoke the response, "What?" or something similar.
'Mayday' works every time! :)

[flowman]

I spoke to Brest ACC about the incident. All they could tell me was that the aircraft (French registration) landed safely at an unidentified aerodrome in France.
As alluded to above a number of aircraft were involved in relaying the various messages to/from the distressed aircraft.
So a happy ending.:ok:

[KLMer]

411A, you lost an engine and did not put out a MAYDAY or a PAN, that to me equals a very large PRAT.... what was your f/o doing or was he not allowed to have any imput.

[411A]

Well actually, KLM'er, he was busy at the time, raising the landing gear, silencing the fire bell, pulling the respective engine fire handle and discharging the engine fire extinguisher.... among other things.

First things first, old boy....:rolleyes:

[Viscount Sussex]

:{ Oh, KLMer!! Why?!! Oh, why did you invite him back? He was enjoying the tender grass on the prairie.:{
Oh well, this is nothing to do with me. I thought the thread was dead!
:ugh:

[YesTAM]

At the risk of getting my head chopped off at the neck, I respectfully suggest that Mr. 411A appears to have a point. The one or two professionals I know epitomise extremely cool calm people when under pressure and appear to maintain that calmness in emergencies.

Even in my humble single, a mayday call is not at the top of the engine failure checklist.

[411A]

Keep you're tin hat at the ready, YesTAM, as many here are not likely to agree...
Now, if you think about it just a bit, that 'Mayday' call should be absolutely the LAST of your priorities.
Positively.

[Capt Pit Bull]

Yestam

What has having a calm manner got to do with the decision to say PAN or MAYDAY? Declaring MAYDAY <> Panic.


411A

<rolls eyes> Maybe you should think about it a lot, instead of just a bit. Most engine failures scenarios involve an change in flight path - emergency turns off SIDs, drift down, changes of speed or rate of climb, immediate need to land because of fire or other complications. Now, maybe thats ok in Hicksville USA, but in a busy terminal environment you'd have to be barking mad not to get an emergency call in somewhere pretty promptly. Maybe not before pulling a fire handle, but soon after. Certainly the rooting around in the checklist is far less critical than avoiding becoming aluminium confetti.

pb

[YesTAM]

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate? ...............................(runs for the door)

[Capt Pit Bull]

Yestam,

Your arguement, such as these was one, seemed to revolve around agreeing with 411 because professionalism equaled calm under pressure.

Whats wrong with CALMLY making a mayday call?

Regarding Aviate, Navigate, Communicate....

Yes, obviously retaining control of the aircraft is vital, and navigating so as not to hit anything is vital, but really.... this is a 2 crew aircraft we are talking about here. I'm not suggesting making the full 'formal' mayday call - as if anyone ever would in a time critical situation, but a truncated one takes a few seconds max and is certainly more important than going around the system panel, checklist in hand, turning off all the failed systems (which are already isolated automatically). Even in an engine fire, most types have a pregnant pause of 30 seconds or so after the first bottle is fired to see if the flames go out. Anyway, in a modern terminal environment it is mostly radar vectors, so Navigate = Communicate "Mayday - engine fire - Vector us for a 4 mile final"

pb

[N380UA]

"Aviate, Navigate, Communicate" is private pilot 101.

Looking through the posts here there is nothing that would indicate any other procedure than that. Apparently, none of the contributors here know anything other than the fact that a pilot issued a distress call and needing assistance. No one here knows the background or events leading up to this call.

So for all I care there is a pilot out there that "Aviated, Navigated and is now COMMUNICATING" FFCOL

If you loose your only engine over this much water a mayday, after having done the aviating and navigating bit is certainly in order. Even if you're in a twin bug smasher loosing the critical engine might get you in a bit of a tight spot. Additionally, some of them will barely allow you to descend more or less controlled – forget about holding level.
…when one engine on a twin fails, you don't lose half of your excess thrust, you typically lose 80% to 90% of your excess thrust… (http://www.avweb.com/news/airman/184438-1.html)
But what gets me the most is the fact that a fellow pilot asked for help, and here we are discussing whethre or not he was right to ask for it!! It further gets me asking what some folks here know about twins, airmanship and comradeship... :* :uhoh:

[KLMer]

Capt Pit Bull, you seem a switched on cookie you comments are ones that talk alot of sense.

Im sure no-one here is suggesting putting out a MAYDAY or PAN call before aviating but it is of great importance.

KLM's SOP's tell us to put out a mayday we do not have a choice in the matter when loosing am engine. During an engine fairlure after V1, the first thing we do is cancel the Master Warning rasie the gear then do nothing until 400', during this time the PNF issues the MAYDAY and tells ATC to standby until a more convinent time.....

[mondriver]

During an engine fairlure after V1, the first thing we do is cancel the Master Warning rasie the gear then do nothing until 400', during this time the PNF issues the MAYDAY and tells ATC to standby until a more convinent time.....
I was wondering when when we would get a sensible post for the correct course of action instead of everyone being sucked into 411A's antagonising posts.

[Basil]

Good plan but some posters make this read like the hamster wheel!
So when should a "Mayday" be transmitted?
I'll tell you when:
When the pilot-in-command decides it is necessary of course :}

[waffles]

411A quote (6th june 06):
Well actually, KLM'er, he was busy at the time, raising the landing gear, silencing the fire bell, pulling the respective engine fire handle and discharging the engine fire extinguisher.... among other things.

This sounds like your f/o was the Pnf and you as the Pf.
So, you are very busy flying the aircraft (with a reduced capacity as it is a non-normal situation), he is very busy with the list you gave above, and you STILL feel that it is not a good idea for a simple:

"MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY, "callsign", Engine fire ... standby"

considering that during your poor Pnf's drills, ATC may have tried to communicate with you (not realising your situation), distracting your Pnf, who may then possibly lose his place or miss a critical part of his drills ... or if you are capable of recognising his high workload, you answer, using up yet more of your capacity possibly distracting you from your flying duties ... need I really continue ?

I know the rules as well as any ... aviate, navigate, communicate.
BUT, if saying a quick sentence (which can easily be cancelled once the high workload is complete) is going to improve capacity (should an additional situation arise), performance and provide a helpful service from ATC, it is not only unprofessional but utterly STUPID. Even if you decide not to answer, that dealing with your situation is more important, the fact they are there, trying to get in touch, is going to be a completely unnecessary distraction.

Within the european area, anything other than a MAYDAY might confuse the controllers who in my experience have a limited grasp of the english language anyway and push your workload (without your knowing), through the roof.
Not all pilots have the comfort you may enjoy in the USA where everyone is fluent in english !

[5Y-NOT]

Had THE engine discard a push rod in solo X country days, my MAYDAY was handled through an overflight relaying to ATC, and the response and help was professional and reassuring. Obviously each scenario is different: 73 engine failure on take off, single engine over water, light twin in high terrain etc. Seems more an issue of when to call the MAYDAY rather than if... Our TO brief calls for " no further action below 1000', other than to raise gear, silence aural warnings and advise ATC" and that call for me will be a (calm) MAYDAY.. not only for ATC but for all other traffic in the vicinity to get a heads up. A case of as soon as practicable in other situations?
Operating largely in areas with limited ATS, and more to the point limited ability to set up SAR, or any other assistance, I'd get that Mayday out quick sharp and get the cogs turning, can always downgrade it. Again gives traffic in the area a heads up, and keeps the frequencies clear to relay your situation, progress etc.
Also operating in high traffic density areas, doesn't it alert everybody, not just ATC? Restrict all calls till a/c is assigned designating frequency etc.
Not sure why 'Mayday' = 'panic' ????
I also report ELT transmissions......:ooh:
Glad to hear that a/c is ok.

[The AvgasDinosaur]

I seem to remember awhile back an aircraft mentioning they were low on fuel without using any dramatic language.....it wasn't prioritised and ran out of fuel while being vectored on the long route home. I know there were other factors at play in this incident, but it does highlight the need to ensure all parties are aware of the seriousness of a particular situation.
I think this is the one you are refering to http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19900125-0
Avianca B.707 near New York 25th Jan 1990 73 fatalities.
Be lucky
David

[break dancer]

Aviate - fly the aircraft, a bit obvious
Navigate - fly the aircraft; engine out procedure, initiate level off/decent as required
Communicate - initial mayday call and standby
These steps can take place very quickly.

Go back to the top
Aviate - assess, recall actions or checklists
Navigate - confirm EOP, decent altitude, off airway tracking
Communicate - tell everyone what you're doing

Any changes in the status of the aircraft i.e. a fire gone out, go back to the top as priorities will change
Aviate, navigate, communicate

This would seem to work in all senarios

[Few Cloudy]

Poor English?

Rumour has it that Mayday comes from the French for Aid Me, which in true British manner, like Beaulieu and Dandelion became absorbed into the language (seafaring, aviation language in this case).

FC.

[Confabulous]

Thinking about it, in any environment a Mayday would be the last thing on my mind, especially out of controlled airspace. No use waffling on the radio, it's not really going to get you any help. In a light aircraft it may be of use if you're lost (D&D in the UK), but apart from that you fly the aircraft. The only time a mayday will be useful is to alert the crash services, although having the freedom to take any route to any runway would certainly be useful, and would definitely help you in a ditching scenario.

[waffles]

No use waffling on the radio, it's not really going to get you any help.

When you call "MAYDAY", ATC will give you priority, give you what you want in terms of radar vectors, altitudes etc. In some areas, the other traffic may be moved to another freq. and you may get a controller to yourself removing the distractionj of the noise in your ears. I'd consider all of those a huge amount of help if in a non-stadard situation.
In addition to that, a mayday call can be reeled off in a few seconds - hardly waffling if done correctly.

[Old Smokey]

I must have been getting it wrong for the past forty-something years of my flying career. I can recall 2 engine failures between V1 and V2, one all-engines failure in cruise, 1 runaway stabiliser, 2 occasions of jammed controls, 1 in-flight fire, 1 incapacitated Captain when I was F/O, and 2 incapacitated F/Os when I was Captain. I always operated as though my first priority was to contain the situation, and get the aircraft under control. On not one of the occasions mentioned, did I mention the word “Mayday”. I didn’t need to, because after all of 10 seconds or so, the aircraft was under complete control. I would not have hesitated to call “Mayday” if the aircraft problems could not have been resolved expeditiously and a continuing perilous situation existed.

It always sufficed to tell ATC of the problem, and the required further course of action. Several ATCOs asked the question “Are you declaring an emergency?” In each case, because I placed communication as the last of the big three (Aviate / Navigate / Communicate), my reply was “Not any more, the situation is under control”. Again, I say, I would use every means available to call “Mayday” if control and safety could not be assured after the seconds spent Aviating and Navigating, there might be someone “out there” who had a real emergency. If, in a "poor English speaking" environment, relating the problem in concise, plain language does not elicit any response, then a "Mayday" call is warranted to get their attention.

My favourite line from a great movie comes from Tom Hanks in “Apollo 13” –

“Houston, we have a problem”. (Obviously the NASA guys would never make airline pilots).

411A, it sounds like your F/O in your last post did some pretty good “pilot stuff”, must have been one of the old school before news-casting became a part of the job description.

Yep, I must have been getting it all wrong, I readily admit to many many faults, over-reaction is not one of them.

I hope that the pilot/s and occupants of the aircraft event that started this thread have their feet safely on dry land.:ok:

Regards,

Old Smokey

[rhovsquared]

DickyPearse, sounds like that avianca 707... i lived relatively close to that site, Corona Queens, and not too far from AA flt. 587...Inwood NY :sad:

[jondc9]

chippie chappie

our 9's had the ''smokeless'' engines (well, less smoke anyway).

I guess I am part boy scout, I loved to have 121.5 on in case I could be the first to help out by reporting an ELT or relay a mayday.

our airline did have us monitor a company "guard" frequency other than 121.5 as well as ACARS data link.

In order to get to be better pilots, we must face our shortcomings straight on. that is one reason I made the post: REALITY CHECK...hope you will all check it out!

I don't know about the rest of you, but I would write down the frequency on the chart with position each time. By the end of the chart cycle, you knew when the freq change would happen and could keep an eye on the ATC boys and girls.

This was more important about 24 years ago when then president RR fired all the controllers...in my view our ATC has never quite recovered!

(so of course now, our FAA wants pay cuts for new controllers!...when will they learn?)

jon

[OscarTango]

Just a question : how many freq. can you listen/tune into in a modern plane ? ( and I know it depends on how may radio's you have installed :E )

Must be more then 2, since you have ATC on comm 1, 121,5 in comm2 and you mention a company freq.... hence my question. :confused:

[jondc9]

forgive any confusion

com 1 for ATC

Com 2 for company "guard" freq if ACARS not working (acars is used in lieu of company guard when ACARS is working normally)

if ACARS working ( a data link with its own vhf radio) then 121.5 in com 2

ACARS could be used for data link messages from company or getting ATIS in text form.

certainly when text atis not available, we would use com 2 for audio atis.

AND if you wanted to get fancy, ACARS dedicated number 3 radio could be tuned to any normal VHF com freq, but you would lose text capability.

again forgive any confusion.

jon

[Shiny side down]

I'll chip in with a few bits.

I always (at least intend) monitor 121.5, or try if we only have 2 boxes available. I find I regularly have to reselect 121.5 after my colleague has taken the weather.
Very recently, with Brest, we were contacted on 121.5 due lack of contact. We weren't immediately aware of the silence(?) on box 1 due to a stupidly high amount of chatter and rubbish going on 121.5. Box 1 had failed, but as mentioned, there was so much chatter on 121.5 (PA's, handling agent calls, hello Bob are you there?) that the problem was masked.
When we heard our callsign on 121.5, the transmission was stepped on by another aircraft. I called the Brest channel, found a problem. realised 121.5 were calling, called them, by which time the skipper had made contact on box 1 with ATC. Between us, 2 flightdeck + ATC, we were out of contact less than 3 minutes. 121.5 seems particularly active down that way sometimes, or Is it me?
Our Box 1 had a recurring fault, cleared in the tech log.

The point I am almost making is...

Situations will still arise were people are out of contact. In todays hightened alert, the results are more costly.
Communications failures will still arise. ATC will forget to transfer. we will select the wrong freq, radios will fail. monitoring 121.5 won't always help the problem immediately.

[SixDelta]

The use of 121.5 in the UK for "practice pans" and "random chat" is distracting and does, in my experience, lead to guys continously turning down the volume or de-selecting the frequency. How feasible is it to have a "sim-guard" frequency to be used (with D and D) for Practice Emergency calls?

Also, are there any radio fits that allow simultaneous monitoring of the active ATC frequency and VHF guard on the same box? Most military UHF boxes have this facility for listening to 243MHz.

6D

[jondc9]

REGARDING "HEY BOB" Calls.


Don't you guys ever use what we call "winchester" for goof off calls? Winchester being: 123.45mhz?

named such (I didn't make this up) for the quick firing lever action winchester rifle shooting : 12345 shots (5)

we also use EARL SCHIEB: 129.95 mhz (this named after a southern california car painting place which used to advertise painting any car for $29.95)

Also, "top of the FM dial" 135.975mhz (highest vhf frequency on most radio sets/aviation band).


I also appreciate that flying in the USA might be much easier than the multiple airspace /national boundries flying in europe you all contend with. We won't get shot down for flying between california and nevada with lost com...maybe over DC, but not the many states (at least not yet)

jon

[SixDelta]

Jon

123.45 is an "assigned" freq in the UK i believe, in other words somebody "owns it" (was Bristows at one time). More to the point, why bother with the "hey Bob" calls at all unless you've a company "chat" frequency assigned.

6D

[jondc9]

6d

of course you are right, why bother with "hey bob" calls...but at least they should not be on the emergency frequency anyway.

as for practice df steers, some in the us are available on FSS 122.2, others do require 121.5.

in the US, in addition to the unofficial freqs I mentioned above, there is a plane to plane frequency 122.750, 122.850, 123.025, 123.3, 123.5, some used for planes, others gliders, copters and so forth.

also a number of UNICOM frequencies for use to call for fuel or rental car etc.


I do think 123.45 is also used on transatlantic trips to gab it up a bit.

certainly I bow to the knowledge you have of UK frequency allocation.

jon

I recall one incident where one flight crew (that was severely punished) found out the company frequency of a competitor called "WESTAIR". THE PILOTS were poorly treated at westair including poor pay ( back in 1985 or so) .

while flying over a westair airport which was known to have a loud radio so that ticket agents could hear while helping passengers, a devilish crew sang the following:

(to the tune of "I wish I were an oscar mayer weiner)

I wish I were a westair pilot

that is what I would truly like to bee ee ee

'cuz if I were a westair pilot

they would not have to pay meeee.


said crew was found out by the other company (after a phone call from the chief pilot of westair). the crew was told to remain grounded for 1 week ( with pay ;-) ) as punishment.

this crew was heroic in the eyes of their mates, and the chief pilot was even more beloved!

j

[fortuna76]

Hi there,

I find it rather worrying that not only is Jon posting quite some strong statements here, but he is also finding support from a number of people. Are these opinions really widespread among the pilot community?

Let's get back to the start here. So Jon is the top ace pilot who never makes a mistake and has to correct his lousy lazy captain on his mistakes. Meanwhile the captain gets paid double the salary for reading the golf magazine. That was the feeling I was getting from his post. hmmmm.

Well, like previously posted, wouldn't it be more sensible to talk to the captain in question first before getting him fired? Also he failed to mention how a mistaken frequency change ended up in loss of situational awareness. That would require two pilots to not know where they are, or one pilot not knowing and the other not telling. Offcourse it could be one pilot not wanting to listen, I am not passing judgement here, but the fact is that if this would happen to me, I would mark it as a black day in my career, try to learn where I could have done it differently and certainly not shout about it on this forum.

If mister Jon thinks that he totally understands aviation, maybe he should concider there are other people out there that are the same dots on his tcas screen but are in a very different seat then him. We have only two comm sets and have to change frequency from 121.5 to something else sometimes to talk to other people. We do not fly the same route very often and have no clue who we are talking to next and when. I did over 200 different airport last year so don't expect me to remember any of the frequencies please (three times guess who I work for, and leave out the first two).

Most of all I am worried about the statement that "we are not as professional as we should be". It is just terrible to think that that is the cause of loosing radio contact. I try my very best to be the best pilot I can be. But I am also human, and humans make mistakes. If you do not believe that then you either did not pay attention in crm class or you are Luitenant Data from Star Trek. Switch the wrong frequency, get a comm failure, miss a call, you name it. It can all happen to the best of us, really. Just deal with the problem and get on with life. But if you really believe it will never happen to you, you are setting yourself up for a mayor problem, because you will not see it when something has gone wrong.

I am a professional pilot Jon and therefore I believe in the power of two pilots working together. CRM is my bible. your attitude belongs in a single seater fighter airplane!

[jondc9]

fortuna 76
shame on you for your post and obvious misrepresentation of my words!

YOU state: CRM is your bible! You must not have read it very well.

CRM only works when the captain sets the tone in the cockpit to allow it to work. I've stated this before, see previous posts.

You mention me "getting the captain fired". Shame on you again!

When the captain in question comes on board and says he only has 2 months to retire and "doesn't give a damn" about doing a good job, and ORDERS his copilot to shut up when his copilot trys to make sure that communications are being made correctly with ATC, YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO FAULT ME?

The chief pilot had other complaints besides mine and did not fire the captain, but allowed him to retire early. HE , the captain, could have fought it, the chief pilot could have laughed at what I said and fired me, but he KNEW I was telling the truth.

NO MR> Fortuna, maybe you just haven't seen enough of flying to know where the dust has been swept under the carpet.

Also, I have never said anything about being ACE OF THE BASE. BUT if ace of the base is a pilot who comes to work with current charts, a good night's sleep, a "picture" of the weather and other conditions pertinent to his flight, then call me ACE.

AND if you don't fly somewhere often, have only 2 comm sets, then you must be more careful about all of your communications and quit making excuses.

And fortuna, I've never flown a single seat fighter.

IF you are captain and CRM is your bible, hooray! Set the tone and make sure all of your crew, fa's included, understand...but don't just talk the talk, walk the walk. When one of your f/a crew says, "I hear a funny noise back here" just before takeoff, are you going to go back to the gate and get it checked? Or will you laugh it off and launch with a bad door seal? When your copilot asks "what are you reading" and it is the newspaper instead of an approach chart:THINK OF ME.

Reasons to lose comm:

Electrical Failure
Radio Failure
Speaker Failure
Headset Failure
(by either the aircraft or the ATC facility)
Radio Interferrence , Precip static
Loss of line of sight (vhf)
Failure of audio selector panel and associated amplifier
Stuck Mic
Antenna or lead failure
and of course human failure

You might have seen another post of mine called: Reality Check.
People do fall asleep in the cockpit, even both pilots!

People do forget to properly arrange their audio panel
Stuck Mics do happen.

AND it is my intent to remind all of my brother pilots that we as pilots must be vigilant for the above. And to watch out for ATC errors.

And in the spirit of good CRM, I await your views.


jon

[411A]

Jon, you remind me of the late Hubert Humphery, you recall, the Senator who most times started his mouth going, then walked away and left it running...

Calm down son, and enjoy the view, and try not to disrupt your Captain's nap too many times....:rolleyes: