Chain of Responsibility in Aerial Ag

[CRUZN]

Whats everyones perception on who's responsible for outcomes from Aerial Ag activities that are either favourable or adverse and (disregarding legislation for this) what action would shift responsibility from Pilot to Operator and from Operator to Pilot?

[CRUZN]

Whats up boys ...bit hard this one...do I take your answer as 'all care no responsibility?'

[currawong]

That is a tough one to answer, CRUZN.

P in C can mean very little for some, unfortunately.

Input on load size, Go/no go decisions, servicability are often no business of the line pilot. (in my experience)

Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".

That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.

[M18bloke]

They are the ones that make all the money, we mere pilots do as we are told.

[CRUZN]

It is a tough one I'll grant you that Currawong, I do believe though as a pilot with a reasonable amount of experience if a no-go situation develops and a decision is made by either party then thats the end of the discussion. Each party has to deal with different factors and all of them are relevant to a satisfactory outcome otherwise 'professionalism' becomes questionable.

[jon s gull]

They are the ones that make all the money, we mere pilots do as we are told.

If thats true then you're the first one in history. [and you'll make someone a very good husband one day.]

[Wirecutter]

The hand that worketh the spray lever recieveth the rewards.
If it don't feel right don't do it, if you go ahead and do it regardless, maybe you should pick up your chegues with the other hand to help you sleep at night.:zzz:

[airag3]

Had this very discussion (concerning drift issues) with a few local pilots and operators the other night and whereas I was of the opinion it was shared responsibility between pilot/operator/grower apparently under the terms of strict liability the pilot still can be left holding the can.

[CRUZN]

Thanks airag3, I was after ever ones perception on this one and possibly pro-active outcomes, leaving the legal stuff to the side:)

[Rowen the Raver]

Input on load size, Go/no go decisions, servicability are often no business of the line pilot. (in my experience)

Yet when it all goes wrong it is "pilot error".

That aside, responsibility of the operation as a whole lies at the top.

Thats right Currawong, responsibility may well lie at the top, but if you have more experience than your cheif pilot on particular aircraft types you possibily should be advising him on the load size, if you know the local area, chemicals in question, drift matters ect you should be advising your operations manager on go nogo decisions. Surely if servicability is a question should you not call CASA on one of those anonymous call lines, your life and your fellow pilots rely on this call.
Sounds like you would be better of buying your own operation then "pilot error" would not even come into it.

[currawong]

Come on Rowen. In an ideal world, I would agree with you.

But not all operators are prepared to accept the experience or the advice of others.

Example - "Boss, the prop is throwing red oil everywhere"

Reply - "Should be good for another 50 hours"

Example- "Boss, last time we worked there with this wind there was a complaint"

Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"

etc etc etc

I left that job:bored:

On anonymous call lines. I know someone that used one. Within 24 hrs the employer had been tipped off and the bloke sacked.:yuk:

Other than that, I totally agree with you.

[CRUZN]

[Example- "Boss, last time we worked there with this wind there was a complaint"
Reply - "Just do it". On return "here, phone call for you"
etc etc etc

Currawong, this is exactly the problem that plagues our industry, you knew that the job had hairs on it yet you didn't stand your ground...would standing your ground been a better result than the 'phone call?'

[currawong]

In a word, yes.

It was however clear with that employer that following orders = continued employment.

I don't have to worry about that stuff now:ok:

But you can bet there is someone somewhere in the same position, that cannot get a better job in a hurry because they can only log 1/3 of their flying time, that cannot make a stand because they need the job.

Maybe this will help. I hope so.

[Trev007]

M18 Bloke
If you want to make all the money borrow a couple of mill and go right ahead. My advice is to buy something you can sell easily:{

[Fuzzy Bear]

Thats right M18 bloke, like a turbine Ag Cat with a walter engine in it.

[Lowlevldevl]

Pilots are at the pointy end of both public perception and safety. The pilot makes the final decision as to what happens to the power and spray levers.
The decisions that he makes though depend on factors ranging from company operating procedures to company culture to personality and personal stressors.
With the exception of personal issues that a pilot may wish to keep to himself, all of these factors are heavily influenced by the operator/ management.
It's the operators responsibility to have systems in place which support the pilots decision making process so that errors aren't made.
Every operator should have a sign on his desk to remind both himself and his crew, "The Buck Stops Here".

[biggles190]

I think the main point is being missed.
The client/ bug checker/ agent books a job in and should add conditions with a map for the job if any.
Air ag operator/management decide if it's safe to continue or conditions need imposing.
Next pilot decides if it's safe/ possible or will need to wait till conditions are right.

When it goes wrong, all should be liable in different ways and amounts according to problem and where it went wrong.

Responsibility starts at the farmer/ client.

A paper trail should be kept for this reason!

[Candyman]

Client, Agronomist, Agent, Your Boss.................. At the end of the day, it is you as PIC, who has the final say as to whether the job is go/no go.

Not happy? Dont strap yourself in!

[biggles190]

I take it you have never been told by a client that the feild down wind is 1. ready to be defoiliated, 2. not a suseptable crop or 3. weeds and it wont matter if it's drifted and later find out this was not the case??

How many aircraft have been trashed because a pilot has gone back to land with a full load becuase he was not given all the information?

Ever tried landing an 802 with a full can knowing locking a wheel to keep it straight usualy means blowing a tyre??

Some states have equal resposibility for farmer/agent/agronomist/ operator with a smaller fine for pilot.

If all states did this, it would make saying no easier and harder for a client to push an unsafe job.

[Candyman]

Mr Biggles,
Unfortunately you assume wrong my friend. I have been lied to and tricked on more than one occasion. My point was that we dont need to succumb to pressures from boss/client etc if we feel the job in front of us is on the riskier side of the ledger.
You can only research a job so much before taking that first load, sometimes we gotta land with a can.

[currawong]

For ops to despatch an aircraft to a particular job implies all is in order for that job to be done.

That all might not be in order on arrival implies negligence at some level.(at best, deliberate misinformation at worst)

Personally, I do not like the idea of turning a prop unless the outcome is pretty much assured.

Any other way is just an armed recce.

[biggles190]

I'm glad you agree.
I have found life easier where I can tell a client or bug checker when taking an order that if things go wrong, they are coming to court with me when the sh it hits the fan and they could end up playing mums and dads in jail.

Since I have started using this method life has become a lot less stressful and as off today, no more landing with loads.

I am waiting for the rest of the states to come into line with these laws.

I'm afraid in some seasonal work you have to head out with a load and hope you have extracted all possible information from the available sources.

[airag3]

Agree 100% Currawong ,in fact I go back one step further and say there's no point mixing chemical unless everything is right to go.

[M18bloke]

They are the ones that make all the money, we mere pilots do as we are told.

I withdraw this comment now. The operator does not make all the money. When an aircraft crashes assuming the pilot is not hurt, it is fair to say that the pilots ego gets a dent. The operator is out alot of money. The pilot is not out alot of money. There has been exceptions to this theory, like when an insurance company withdraws approval to keep a pilot on the insurance policy after accidents. In this senario the pilot is out alot.

[M18bloke]

LLD.
Every operator should have a sign on his desk to remind both himself and his crew, "The Buck Stops Here".[/quote]

Maybe the cockpit could have a big sticker saying that.

[Lowlevldevl]

M18 Bloke,
The whole point of that quote is that the buck can only stop in one place.
Where do you want it? Your cockpit or the boss's office?

Good idea though. If there was a sticker in the cockpit, what would it read?
Fact is there are already a bunch of stickers there and they usually relate closely to the correct operation of the aircraft. How often do you read them?

[Internet Cafe]

LLD,
The sticker should read "You're only as good as your next F**k Up"

[Lowlevldevl]

LLD,
The sticker should read "You're only as good as your next F**k Up"
Actually IC, you're only as good as your LAST F**k Up

[biggles190]

Getting back to the original question, how can you be responsible an not have legislation?
Regardless of all the answer, there are laws on who is responsible and liable, even if they are different in each state!

If you don't know where you stand, take the AAAA's advice and get yourself some good insurance to make sure you are covered, or drive out to every block and check it from the ground before you spay every time.

[Big Nasty]

This issues flows into the pay nicely
Who wears what determines who gets paid what
does that make sense ????
Less risk=less money :confused:

[Lowlevldevl]

Less money?
Go wash your mouth out!