Experience commensurate with age

[Robert Langdon]

Missed out on an airline job because "Experience commensurate with age" was not enough. Why is this not illegal?

[Mr R Sole]

Why should it be illegal?

It is a perfectly resonable requirement to have.

[Robert Langdon]

I was asking the question based on the fact that in a number of countries discrimination based on any aspect of age is illegal.
Of course there are still some countries where this may not be illegal.

[High Wing Drifter]

It is a perfectly resonable requirement to have.
No, it isn't reasonable. Age is merely one of the criteria used to filter applications. Therefore it is understandable, which is not quite the same thing. We are talking about people below the age of 50 flying commercial ops, not quivering geriatrics with ambitions to be fighter pilots.

[scroggs]

Robert you didn't 'miss out on' a job; you were inadequately qualified by the conditions of your potential employer. Another way of putting that is that there were other people better qualified than you - and who the employer preferred. Do you really think legislation to outlaw a specification of 'experience commensurate with age' would have made any difference? You're dreaming!

Scroggs

[Spyke]

It's still discrimination. Scroggs may have painted it pink and stuck a chocolate on top, but it's still the same thing.

What if the qualification had been "Experience commensurate with race" or "religion" or "sex". If I decide women should have twice the hours of men for the same job to be "qualified" then then entire force of the EU would come crashing down on my business.

We've stamped on all of the other factors, so why is age different?

[A320rider]

if they told you that your age is a problem ,BY LAW it is discrimination, and I have heared in 2006, there will be an European law against age discrimination.
I think it is still national actually, any info about that?

I think this is disgusting to discriminate against age, but I think it is better to not to work for an airline which practice such discrimination against their employers...

you can still look for a lawer online, send your answer from the company and sue them, you can make some $$$$!!!!...I know that some people won because they were black!

in the USA, (they) you do not even (ask) or write your age on your CV....if you write your age , they wont hire you!you can not even post your picture...they can not ask if you are married or not, if you have kid,...

[scroggs]

It may be discrimination - as you see it - but you are not going to get rid of it by legislation. If an employer has a choice of applicants, he will accept those who best fit his requirements. If one of those requirements is that older candidates have a reasonable level of experience in the job, I doubt that any legislation could be framed to prevent that. You'll note that 'experience commensurate with age' does not mean that older people will not be employed; it means that older inexperienced people will not be employed.

When I look at the employment adverts in the Times or Independent for jobs offering salaries of >£35k (a typical jet FOs starting pay), I find that almost every one stipulates that some - sometimes lots of - experience in the relevant field is required. Are you suggesting that such requirements are somehow immoral?

I have no doubt that you will counter that if an employer is prepared to take young inexperienced people, he should take 'old' inexperienced people. However, legislation limits the age to which he may employ pilots - 60 years of age for a captain. Therefore the employer is entitled to argue that he should be able to expect a reasonable return of service once a pilot has completed his training in the airline. That training is arguably not complete until a pilot is on line as a captain.

Please understand I am not arguing in order to support this position; I am arguing in order to explain it. At the end of the day, if an employer doesn't want you - for whatever reason - nothing you can do will change that.

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

Scroggs,
I find that almost every one stipulates that some - sometimes lots of - experience in the relevant field is required. Are you suggesting that such requirements are somehow immoral?
In the distinct majority of those cases (certainly in any IT, consultancy or business analysis related field), you will find that the prejudice against lack of experience and ample age does not affect the candidates chance of an interview. What does affect the chances of an interview is the right combination of experience, qualification and track record. The latter is essential for the former, qualifications are usually only required to bolster lack of experience. In the context cited so far in this thread, the 'youngster' and the 'oldie' have the same experience/qualficiations but the oldie is given the heave-ho soley on age grounds.

[Robert Langdon]

If a 23yo gets into the airline with 800 hours and I dont get a look in with several thousand hours in my late 30's because I dont meet age/experience criteria how is it fair?
This other person did not have better "quals or experience"than me.

We are of course assuming that all other criteria were of equal standing.

[scroggs]

Robert, I don't know what your experience consists of, nor what employer you were applying to or what their requirements were. It may well be that, individually, you have a case for discrimination, or would have, if legislation was in place to support your claim. I suspect, however, that it would be very difficult to prove as so many factors are involved in the decision whether to employ someone or not.

In a situation where there are far more applicants than jobs, it is inevitable that there will be many disappointed individuals. Some of those may be so disaffected that they will claim discrimination in some way or other - indeed, it's now become pretty standard to have to field several claims of discrimination after any employment competition. The vast majority of these claims are frivolous and unfounded, and stand no chance of support in law.

It is relatively easy to defend the criteria used to select people in most complex professional jobs, and extremely difficult to demonstrate that the sole reason for being denied employment was one specific and discriminatory criterion. If an employer doesn't feel that you fit his requirements, he can refuse to employ you. It's his company, and he has (in this case) several other candidates who may better fit his criteria. If the issue is age, so long as he can show that he has in the past employed people of various ages, I suspect that no case against him would stand. If he has a record, on the other hand, of never employing anyone over, say, 25, there may be a case to answer - if the employer cannot demonstrate that age combined with relative inexperience is a problem. Unfortunately for those who would argue otherwise, the military have demonstrated on several occasions that teaching older pilots is problemmatic, and thus have set their maximum age of pilot recruitment at (funnily enough) 25.

I'm not saying that age discrimination doesn't exist. What I am saying is, even with legislation, it will be extremely difficult to prove, especially as research backs the contention that older pilots are more difficult to train. This will be presented as a safety issue, and once the magic word 'safety' is uttered, all other arguments become secondary.

You may have the financial muscle, determination and stamina to attempt to argue your case through the layers of the legal system - once legislation is enacted. I wish you luck. However, I have considerable doubts of your chances of success. But I am not a legal man. If you'd like a (much) more authorititive opinion of your position, you might like to try and talk to Flying Lawyer, Pprune's own tame legal expert. A short search should find him!

Scroggs

[747 Downind]

A320rider: Were not in USA, thank God, so we can disregard their outrageous system.. next they won't allow you to write your name on your C.V for fear that one's ethnic background may be presumed from their 'GIVEN' names.

This ludacrous P.C crap, the system is abused so people can use it to their advantage. Of course discrimination should be eliminated but I would like to think in the U.K that operators genuinely employ those they feel will be most beneficial to their company. Are we going to sue BA because they only recruit Intergrated approved students and not Modular.

Robert, I am not aware of your personal circumstances. There is an ideology that older pilots (irrespective of experience) are harder to train and that younger pilots are more able and willing to adapt to change. This of course is an unfair stereotype and thus discrimination.. like saying generally women are not good at reading maps and therefore should not fly, ridiculous stereotypes that hold no substance. An individual should be judged on their own merits, period.

Age, however, does bring in one issue, legal retirement age. An airline wants to make the most of their employees, particularly in these competitive times. Every airline looks at an F/O as a potential Captain, makes sense. Therefore, if you went to BA (MINIMUM time to command is about 10 years), retirement age of 55. You can see it is not really worth taking on somebody over the age of 40 who hasn't got major airline experience. And this ideology is NOT discrimination, but mere common sense. I hope for your circumstances Robert you were in the latter case, otherwise you may have been robbed

74 Downind:ok:

[Addy]

i'm missing out on every job that i've applied for. maybe my experience/age is too high or so :S guys aged 35/300 hrs do get interview. I get nothing with 22/600+.

Anybody out there who does pick up guys with my age/experience or should I just sit and wait working an office job until I am 28 years old :rolleyes:

[scroggs]

747 Downwind I admire and support your campaign against political correctness, but I'd like to correct a couple of your contentions:

Are we going to sue BA because they only recruit Intergrated approved students and not Modular.

BA don't take only integrated graduates. They take pilots from a variety of backgrounds.

There is an ideology that older pilots (irrespective of experience) are harder to train and that younger pilots are more able and willing to adapt to change. This of course is an unfair stereotype and thus discrimination.. like saying generally women are not good at reading maps and therefore should not fly, ridiculous stereotypes that hold no substance.

Actually, both of these 'stereotypes' have a considerable basis in fact. Over many, many years, the RAF (among others) have shown on several occasions that, in general, older people are less successful at assimilating complex training than younger people. Experience can completely offset this disadvantage, however. As for the stereotype that 'women [are] not good at reading maps', this is beased on the fact that - in general - women are less spatially aware than men. This is not wishful thinking, nor an unfounded misogynist remark; it is fact. You are quite correct when you state that we should assess the individual rather than the generalisation. However, you should not be surprised when observation reveals that the generalisations are born out by experience!

Your final point about progression to command echoes something I said in an earlier post, and is quite correct. What cut-off age an airline applies will vary with the experience of the applicant and foreknowledge of upcoming legislation, combined with the expected time to command. For instance, in BA the expected time to command is 12 to 15 years, which would support your age 40 cut-off. However, the retirement age will increase from 55 to 60 next year, which means that a cut-off of around 45 is sensible (in fact it's 47, I believe). Because of the rather long time to command, and the availability of excellent short-haul training sectors, BA are happy to recruit ab-initio pilots - and imply that they will recruit older pilots with limited hours because (my interpretation) they believe their selection procedures will weed out those who won't make it. Other, smaller, airlines can't afford such a detailed pre-employment assessment procedure and so, as they have lots and lots of applicants, will reject many on the basis of generalisations - including those that we have discussed. Is that discrimination? Or is it just coarse but sensible filtering?

Scroggs

[Robert Langdon]

Well, now that I've calmed down a bit I realise that I have not been too clear in my original posts.

Firstly, I recieved a reject letter before sitting any interview or sim check. This letter categorically states that my application will not be considered because I do not meet the age/experience criteria.

Secondly this airline is NOT UK based, so it is evident legislation may not cover my situation.
I used to fly in Oz where it was brought to my attention that the legacy carrier there gets round this illegal criteria (in Oz) but stating your appication is not competitive.

I was angry for a couple of days now I'm over it, I guess it all part of the wonderful world of aviation. Many thanks for those informative replies :D .

Rob

P.S Scroggs I've got 2800 hrs, mostly TP (1500), JAA and CASA licensed and I'm 38.

[scroggs]

Hi Rob,

yes, there are undoubtedly some airlines (even in UK) who would regard your qualifications as unsuitable for their operation - mine is one, though your age is not a factor.

As you've realised, it is very easy for an employer to disguise his real reasons for rejecting an applicant; it's paradoxically somewhat refreshing to see that the airline you applied to was at least honest about why they rejected you! As you say, no legislation here - even if it existed - would help you with a foreign carrier.

Ulimately, you have to accept that these knockbacks will happen and move on. Doesn't mean you can't kick seven shades of !!!!! out of the furniture at the time, though!

Good luck with your other applications!

Scroggs

[Megaton]

This is wearying but I'll repeat it anyway. BA do not discriminate. I'm the same age as you Robert and have been recently accepted by BA with 600-odd hrs of which 200-odd hrs were medium TP. Furthermore, I also trained through the modular route. I do not imagine for one second that I am unusual or exceptional so I think it only fair to stop bashing airlines such as BA for being prejudiced when they clearly aren't.

[High Wing Drifter]

Congratulations Ham!

[A320rider]

Rob, when I was 25, I was to young, 13 years later and thousand hours in my log, I am now to old.

when I finished my training, a company told me I was to experimented to fly a jet, ...but I have never been in a jet(!!!???).

the problem is the kind of answer you receive, can really upset you.
in time of crisis, employers will tell you any BS to not employ you....

one company told me I have to be a scientific,...(???)

one wrote me:"we dont want you"

some want you live 30 minutes from the airport,....

some companies ask you to pay to work...

a company asked me to speak french, german, dutch, ....25 years old, 10 years experience, 3000h jet,.

all BS!!!!

[Robert Langdon]

Ham Phisted

I think you need to re-read my last post. I clearly state this was not a UK based airline and I have only just started applying to the "big boys". It just so happened that the 1st reply came from a foreign carrier who, I believed, discriminated against my age.

Since writing that 1st post (in the heat of the moment) I have had to clarify that this would not happen in the UK due to legislation.

Where did I say that BA discriminate? Where did I say I was exceptional?

I was angry that I was not given the opportunity to show my attributes, nothing more, nothing less.

[Megaton]

I don't need to re-read your post and I follow your argument quite satisfactorily. Furthermore, I note you never mentioned BA which is why I used the phrase:

airlines such as BA.

I merely used BA as an example that wannabes have chosen to criticise, amongst others, for being discriminatory.

HWD,

Thank you. Obviously I'm over the moon. :)

[Robert Langdon]

So would you agree that I have the right to "bash" an airline that has clearly discriminated against me?

I have it in writing "sorry but you do not meet the experience commensurate with age criteria". The evidence is in my hot little hand.

I agree with HWD and congratulate you, because amongst other things you've demonstrated that this type of behaviour does not happen in this country.

[Penworth]

Maybe it was just because they didn't like me for whatever reason, but I recently got a letter from the Pilot Recruitment Flight Manager at BA which read:

"Currently, British Airways is only recruiting Self-Sponsored Pilots who have graduated from a Full Time Integrated ab-initio course at an approved college within the previous six months."

Seems clear enough to me where they recruit low hour inexperienced pilots from. To be fair to them though, he did go on to say that once I had a few hundred hours on an aircraft with a MTOM greater than 10 tonnes then I was welcome to apply for their DEP scheme, which is where I'm assuming you are at just now, Ham Phisted.

PW

[Megaton]

That's right. I had approx 400 hrs SEP/MEP and 200-300 hrs turboprop over 25 tonnes.

[scroggs]

Ham can you point out where anyone was criticising BA in this thread? Or have you just got so used to seeing BA being criticised that you automatically assumed that any mention of BA must be critical? - Oh, and Well Done!!

Penworth your missive from BA... "Currently, British Airways is only recruiting Self-Sponsored Pilots who have graduated from a Full Time Integrated ab-initio course at an approved college within the previous six months."
....isn't entirely accurate, as they are also currently recruiting from CTC - which is a modular, not integrated, FTO. I believe they have also recently taken one or two other people (Edit again: such as Ham, above) who neither fit the quoted description above, nor quite fit the minimum DEP criteria. All of which is hopeful, I'm sure you'll agree!

Scroggs

Edit: I hate it when it does that! (Puts two posts together without asking!)

[Megaton]

Never said anyone was criticising BA in particular. It was the general thrust of the argument that airlines have been discriminatory that I was trying to debunk. I've perhaps been fortunate in that I've been for 3 job interviews in the last 11 months and have been offered employment by each of those airlines.

[scroggs]

Ok, fair enough. I do think that age discrimination does exist, though I've been trying to show that it's very difficult to prove - or even to notice! In Rob's case, bizarrely, the (foreign) airline was quite brazen about it. I think that those few UK airlines where such discrimination is practised are rather more subtle about it! I doubt, sadly, that the legislation due next year will make a great deal of difference in practical terms as far as low-experience pilots are concerned.

Scroggs

[747 Downwind]

Scroggs,

Sorry for the late reply being bit busy, almost forgot that I had originally posted.

Quite, BA do employ modular trained, I was somewhat lacking depth in that statement.. the implication was that there is an evident bias towards integrated students at BA (though that is their policy and I have nothing against that if it works for them)

Indeed there are degrees of truth in the statements regarding women and older pilots which I mentioned, I just didn't want to be too direct as some people have the habit of getting offended and taking a statement as a personal insult and a general discrimination against all their 'kind'. Thus, bringing me to my final point: is it discrimination? I would say NO, but it is a stereotype that may be wrong for that particular individual which is unfair, but hey that is life!

I get looked at suspiciously sometimes because I am a young male; and the elderly, police officers, the general public will have assumptions/stereotypes suggesting that I may be a criminal.. part of life, just got to deal with it. However, there is truth in it.. young males are the biggest group of criminal offenders. Therefore, as you mentioned these statements do hold substance but the present government seems to be on a crusade, albeit one of contradiction, to eliminate these logical ideologies.. thus I was merely being cautious with my words

747 Downwind :ok:

[Vortex Thing]

Sorry for the delay but this is directed at a post a few before.

Not all military pilots join the air force!

My point however is that it is not correct to state that the maximum age for enterting military flying training is 25. Army, Navy and Royal Marine pilots have different age limits.

The facts are a soldier, marine or sailor who is non-commisioned can enter flying training up until their 32nd birthday and an officer must commence the course before their 30th birthday.

I for one and many who are now subsquently flying civilian hardware had no problems with elementary, basic or advanced courses at 28yrs old in my case or across our age range from 21 to 33yrs old on my pilots course.

Before anyone complains that this is fly rotary it should be clear that there was historically a reason why the RAF flying schools were called numbers 1,2 and 3 FTS and why they were in that order ! (Prior to them becoming tri-service)

I'm not advocating that you can learn as quickly at 45 as you can at 21 but anyone doing the math can see that you are going to get 20 years service out of a 40 year old and the chances of them leaving for another firm past 50 are very small so they are actually getting better job security for thier money.

The 25 year old on the other hand is likely to leave at the 1st available opportunity for the anything bigger or shinier.

I do to some extent see why an airline wants a 25 year old rather than a 45 year old but frankly I can't see how it benefits the airline to have an integrated course student who is 25 and was force fed a course making it relatively easy to pass (due to continuity) over a modular course student who probably had to hold down a job and motivate themselves and still acheive the same standards who is 35 and has 800hrs.

I'm sure someone will tell me though....

[A320rider]

ANY CHANCE FOR A BLACK PILOT AT BA?

BTW , WHAT COLOR DO THEY ACCEPT, SO FAR I HAVE NOT SEEN ONE BLACK PILOT AT BA, DO YOU HAVE BLACK PEOPLE IN ENGLAND?;)

[the latest member]

DO YOU HAVE BLACK PEOPLE IN ENGLAND?

None whatsoever, nor do we have:

Illegal immigrants
High Unemployment
Women Pilots
Crime
Drugs
The Worlds Favourite Airline


:mad: :mad: :mad:

Are you for real???

[scroggs]

Vortex Thing I'm sorry but you are comparing apples with pears. The Royal Air Force and Royal Navy will only accept ab-initio entrants to pilot training up to the age of 25 years and 11 months. Until last year, the RAF's maximum age for pilot recruitment was 23 years 11 months. It may well be that the RN and the Army will consider branch changes from within up to 30 or so, but that is from people they know well, not people who have just walked through the door.

As for your comment about 1, 2 and 3 FTS, I'm not sure what you're getting at. When I left, less than 10 years ago, there were 7 RAF-only FTSs (spookily enough, 1 to 7), and when I joined - several years earlier - there were rather more, though their names weren't necessarily 'X FTS'. The FTS numbering had nothing to do with any other Service.

To your arguments about return of service from a 40-year old vs a 20-year old pilot; to some extent you are correct, but many airlines would rather risk losing some and getting more service out of those that remain - up to 40 years in exceptional cases. Those airlines that recognise they are feeders for larger organisations just want the best people for their purposes for the brief period they get to keep them. What they consider the 'best' people may well be down to the prejudices of the chief pilot/airline owner.

The fact remains, however many 'obvious facts' you trot out, that there is a problem for older ab-initio pilots securing employment, and it would be wrong of me to try and conceal or disguise that fact.

Scroggs

[tonker]

It's actually i wider subject in some various ways, but i'll start by saying i have just landed a job straight onto jets and am in my late 30's so it CAN be done(1600 hrs).

When i attanded my first medical it was pointed out that my height to weight ration wasn't quite the norm, ahh i'm too short i thought. At my interview this was pointed out and the question asked of me was how did i think this might affect my appearance to the general public!

My response was that the general public din't see women or black people as pilots as a sterotype and was THIS same question posed to them at an interview?

The question i believe was not meant to be insulting etc and my response was accepted(i got the job)

As a subject i can only say that the manner i ride a pushbike now(late 30's) is considerably better than when i was 21. Infact i'll never know how i managed to get to 22 but maybe that was just me as a young man. Although my memory and brain won't be as good or fast as the 20's, my priorities have considerably changed especially now i have a family and this i refelcted i believe in my flying,driving and when i can be bothered cycle riding.

I hope everyone gets the phone call offering them a job, but if it aint coming and you haven't got the hours......get them!

Regards Tonker

[jam123]

Tonker

pls check your PM

[paddygee]

Does anyone know how long BA are likely to recruit low houred, self sponsored Ab Initio pilots for?
I am 36, and would willingly pay for a course if there was a snippet of hope of getting in with BA.
Don't get me wrong, current job is fab, but "Experience commensurate with age" suggests that airlines won't touch you at my age with minimal hours.
While we are on the subject, perhaps flying experience and age might be a bit against us oldies, but what about the skills and behaviour characterisitics that our current jobs can more than evidence that would be directly transferrable onto a flight deck? Doesn't that help as well?

[747 Downwind]

A320 Rider: The answer to your question is YES:)


BA do have at least one black pilot. Funnily enough he now flies the aircraft your screen name refers to. I am glad to say that he is an exceptional pilot who I trained with who thoroughly deserves his wings at BA.

Of course, I only know of about ten bods at BA currently and one would think that out of a workforce of maybe 2000 pilots there are possibly more than just the one black pilot that I know of. Nevertheless, A320 rider, you can rest assured and sleep well knowing that BA does have at least one black pilot:D

74 Downwind:ok:

[Woof etc]

What exactly does experience comeasurate with age mean???

If I am 35 years old and I have 10 000 hrs of C150 time does that mean I have experience comeasurate with age? Or if I am 35 years old and have tt1000 hrs, of which 800 on Concorde, would I not meet the requirements due to low total time?

Is there any generally accepted definition of the term?