Sick of it!!!!!!!! [Archive]

solo si

22nd September 2005, 12:53

D Boy,

I think to be honest that there are an awful lot of us who are 'sick of it'. I am 37 with just over 400 hrs. I am a licensed Aircraft Engineer employed on the Airbus/Boeing fleets at Stansted, and even with all my contacts i cannot even get an interview.

I speak to the crew everyday, and the flight deck are mainly from different countries, who are whinging and moaning about working long hours and how cold and expensive Britain is.

Now that I am 37 my options are so limited, because of companies like CTC having cut off age requirements, that I am either going to have spend another £20 K on a type rating or just keep applying to companies like Eastern and VLM, who start paying £18K for a F/O position. That's a £12K drop in income for me considering I have a mortgage,wife, and two young children.
Dilemma? You bet...!

I just wish I could turn the clocks back and have invested my £40K into a sensible investment. I have spoken to everybody from the Airlines,IPA,Balpa,Training Captains, HR Dept, you get the idea, and to be honest they just don't have the answer.

I am not asking for a job on a BA 777 or a job with Virgin flying there new A380's when they are delivered. The bottom line is the people with the most money wins. It's that simple! It's the Chelsea scenario...they just buy success. That's my analogy!

I don't want a pat on the back or sympathy, I just want a chance to show these companies that I'm quite an employable bloke, who is willing to do his best. I am not Gods gift to aviation, but I see myself as a responsible and hard working individual.

One thing that I have decided on is this...I am not spending another penny on flying. It's simple I can't afford it. I spent nearly £1000 on my IR renewal in February and all for what.

By the way I have sent over 1300 CV's to companies since September 2003 and I have had 1 interview with Now Airlines who went bust before they got off the ground literally.

I have phoned,emailed,posted and knocked on doors. Sent flowers, thank you cards and had personal recommendations from people high in the company and still... nothing.

I have got to the point that every time I go to work I try to avoid the Pilots who know me, because they keep asking me how I am getting along with the job hunting and I feel embarrassed to keep telling them the same thing week in week out. They are just being polite but they must think that I am bloody useless.

The question we are all asking ourselves is this...what do we do next? When you find out the answer to that question let me know!

Megaton

22nd September 2005, 13:00

Unfortunately, and unfairly, I think luck has a huge amount to do with it. Does your cv arrive the week that recruiting starts? Does your background fit in wth whatever prejudices the airline has about modular/integrated/instructors/older/younger or female pilots? Do you know someone who can introduce you to the right people?

Been said before but staying current and perserverence are the two qualities that are most likely to win you the first job. Good luck one and all.

PS I'd rather be lucky than good anyday.

Mr Wonka

22nd September 2005, 14:44

Solo Si

I dont think I could have put better myself. After several hundred cvs posted out , regular updates online to companies, I too agree with you that this is just a "HOW DEEP ARE YOUR POCKETS" industry.

Mid thirties and over 2000 hours and 200 hours Jet time P1 multi crew and efis over 7 tonnes, and 1 interview in over 3 years. The company didnt even bother contacting those who failed to make the grade. Soon I have to re+new my IR. At a possible cost of over 3000 grand I think its time to say enough is enough.

Boy i wish i could turn the clock back myself....

Mr W

:confused:

dboy

22nd September 2005, 14:52

Dear all,

Flintstone=> the people who want to be in my position are mostly outsiders who don't have a clue about aviation.

Solo si=>if i were u don't quit your engineering job!!! In a way i'm little bit jealous. You have a good decent job, a wife, kids a house etc. Don't throw it away plz!!!! I'm 29 years old, still living with my parents, no girlfriend, having a job in the local supermarket etc all for the sake of this bloody little paper which cost me about 75.000eur. I want to start a life!!! If i meet people of my own age i realize i didn't achieved anything in life.
I'm not prepared to pay for a flying job. Human Resources have to judge me on my qualities and not on my wallet.
But if you r really keen to fly and to get a job: well my best advice is indeed keep your ir valid and keep on applying. I admire your determination (1300 cv's!!!! :ok: ) But paying for your type before u even know u have a job is too risky i think.
I wish you the best for your future!!!

Ham Phisted=> i agree that u have to stay current. But always spending money on flying without any result makes me think.

best regards all

avrodamo

22nd September 2005, 15:04

All of what you say is very true. There are big big downs, but there are ups too. I know personally of 2 guys who were mid 30's with not much more flying experience than training hours, and have both got jobs without paying out for type ratings and the like. One has been flying for 9 months or so now, and the other is doing his type rating as we speak. I feed off that to give me the motivation to carry on. I am in the same boat as you guys, sending CVs out to everyone and anyone. I also have the wife and 2 kids too. The thing is i know all to well that when im retired and sitting there thinking about my life, i would be gutted if my thought was 'I really wish i had stuck at the airline thing'. Try and find the inspiration to carry on guys!!

A320rider

22nd September 2005, 18:13

I know a friend who have been hired on jet after his aviation school( family connection).

and these few chaps who have a flying job tell me that the situation is crazy. they receive many emails from friends asking them for a job.

to people asking me, If I have found a job, please stop to ask!

many people are actually upset and it is good to ear that I am not the only one in this bad situation! ..., this aviation is not a life!

2 years ago, when i was converting my license to JAR, a lady came in my school, and I asked her how was the situation. She told me she was looking for a job since 1 year, and she had 1000h, she was very upset too.

Be a pimp! :p

flying paddy

22nd September 2005, 19:23

Hi

Just a question but has anyone asked BALPA what they are doing about this situation. Surely it is their responsibility to represent all pilots fairly. If they are not willing to do anything then maybe all us unemployed ATPL pilots should start to mention it to them. This market is awful, the rich boys get and the workers dont. Just seen an add for companies to give pilots to airlines for free, what next. I am not giving up, I am getting angry. It is time that we all spoke out. The airlines do read these pages, so let them know how we feel.

As a side issue there must be pilots out there who know reporters. I am sure the press would love to hear about stories of airlines taking on pilots for free and not paying them. Really good for public image. It is time that we highlight this situation.

Flying Paddy

avrodamo

22nd September 2005, 20:28

I have to agree with FP. BALPA seem to do very little for guys looking for work. The information on the website for airline contacts and recruitment news is very poor, and does not eem to be updated on a regular basis, and since recieving copies of 'The Log' i have yet to see any article with reference to assisting pilots find positions. I think it would be fair to say BALPA is very much geared around pilots in positions with airlines, and not much thought at all going out to the guys who are quite literally doing everything they can to get a job. IPA do seem to work much harder at assisting the guys looking for work. Their vacancies and airline information is regularly updated.

Pin Head

22nd September 2005, 21:02

Stick with it people. I was in your shoes 6years ago. My advice get a FI rating. It gets you flying every day and thats what alot of employers like to see.

coded_messages

23rd September 2005, 03:31

I know its a cliche reply but all I will say is KEEP ON TRYING, never give up and trust me it will happen in the end. I was like you always getting rejection letters but no matter how many rejections I got I kept on persisting.

These days I am on the 744 - Testament to show that if you keep on trying, giving it your best shot and never give up it will come to you in the end :)

Best of luck :)

moku

23rd September 2005, 07:34

Keep trying. It took me 18 months from my IR to get a job with a UK airline.

As for BALPA helping out, not much chance of that ever happening. They are just happy to charge you the money every year for an Employment Conference. In which the airlines all confirm our worst fears..... need to have loads of cash and be integrated.

Try not to let it get you down, harder to do than to say I know. Keep positive.

Moku.

fireflybob

23rd September 2005, 09:22

Guys I know how you feel but just hang on in there!

I have 14,000 hrs, 9,000 on jet, B 737 and A320 - ten years training 2,000 sim instruction. Not flown big shiny jets for 10 years as I had to stop following a family bereavement although I have been in continuous flying practice since instructing etc.

Can I get a job?! Sent all the cvs etc. Got thru first stage with ThomsonFly but then they stalled at the Sim as I have "only flown light aircraft recently"!! Does that mean that I have forgotten how to fly a big one?! I am now working in the Railway Industry to keep body and soul together.

Much is placed on CRM in fight crew training. One has to ask whether the hirers for airlines are making best use of resources out there who are looking for jobs!

I think ageism is rife in the airline business now - they want the bright eyed bushy tailed guys with the shiny licence so they can programme them THEIR way! Any organisation benefits from the odd wild card and the fact that you guys cannot get a job at the moment is a reflection on the industry's attitude rather than your abilities.

Dont worry - the pendulum is swinging inexorably in our direction and when it does (very soon) the airlines will be begging us to join them - you see!

scroggs

23rd September 2005, 10:17

Just a question but has anyone asked BALPA what they are doing about this situation. Surely it is their responsibility to represent all pilots fairly. If they are not willing to do anything then maybe all us unemployed ATPL pilots should start to mention it to them. This market is awful, the rich boys get and the workers dont. Just seen an add for companies to give pilots to airlines for free, what next. I am not giving up, I am getting angry. It is time that we all spoke out. The airlines do read these pages, so let them know how we feel.

As a side issue there must be pilots out there who know reporters. I am sure the press would love to hear about stories of airlines taking on pilots for free and not paying them. Really good for public image. It is time that we highlight this situation.

Flying Paddy I understand your frustration, but BALPA is not there to represent all pilots. It is there to represent professional pilots who pay a good deal of money (about £600 a year in my case) to be members. Of course, that fits the 'rich boys' prejudice you've developed, but you will have to accept that that is the case.

BALPA does lobby politicians about the training system in this country, but you can hardly hold BALPA responsible for the fact that there are many more people wanting flying jobs than there are jobs available! Or are you one of those that believes that because you have a licence you are owed a job?

You chose to spend £x,000s on your training; no one forced you - and no one enticed you with promises they didn't keep. You could just as easily spent the money on speculative legal or medical training, and still found yourself out of a job.

If you want to form some sort of pressure group of disenchanted, unemployed pilots of limited experience, please go ahead. It might make you feel better, but I doubt it'll make a lot of difference - you can't make companies create jobs they don't need! However, the experience of organising such a pressure group may in itself be useful to your job prospects!

Good luck!

Scroggs

StudentInDebt

23rd September 2005, 10:19

Think it's bad now? You wanted to be around in the early 90's, no-one was recruiting at all. Then there was 2001 when an expanding airline industry suddenly began cutting drastically cutting back.

Funnily enough though, both these periods were followed by large increases in pilot recruitment - the phrase "monkey with an IR" being bandied about etc. We are currently seeing a large increase in recruitment in Europe but at the moment it is targetted mainly at pilots with airline experience. Thanks to the cuts in terms and conditions that all airlines have recently implemented there isn't much desire to move from the frying pan into the fire though. This is beginning to dawn on operators and slowly you will see T&Cs improve slightly to attract pilots from other operators, personally I think a return to the traditional bonded type-rating rather than self-sponsored is near for pilots with the experience the airlines need.

If you don't have any airline experience then things probably do look bleak, CTC's relentless domination of the jet entry positions, people doing self-sponsored jet type-ratings and the integrated graduates taking everything else. Well the truth is always different to the perceived reality and the truth is that there are lots of positions available. If you find that you are not getting interviews then perhaps you need to look at how you are going about trying to get them. How does your CV look, when did you last update it (especially phone numbers) , is it eyecatching and succinct? What are you writing in your covering letter, a friend of mine spent hours on tailoring his covering letters to selected airlines and it paid off. Do you know anyone in the airline who maybe able to help, make sure they are your friends and not just passing aquaintances and don't embarrass them by not showing up for an interview or using their name to batter down the receptionist barrier. There is age discrimination, older guys have it hard, but the smaller airlines do recruit them on the assumption that they will stay for a lot longer rather than suffer the disruption of moving after a few years.

Contrary to what has been stated here, BALPA do have an employment section that can offer you advice and they do look after their associate members as I found out during my flying schools' illegal attempt to make me redundant. At the BALPA job fair several of my mates who made a good impression went on to be employed. Yes, not everyone who turns up is going to get to chat to a chief pilot but you'd be surprised how often the guy from a smaller TP company sits in the corner with no-one to talk to while the guy from the jet airline suffers death by CV.

A320rider

23rd September 2005, 10:59

to the one who say" no one force you to be a doctor!!!"

PLEASE, can you stop to say that!
nobody force you to be a doctor, an engineer, or an architect, or a chief.

But how many of these professions are asking you to pay to work? none.
When I start my training years ago, I did not know it would become so stinky like that.If I knew, I would not have start.

I have canceled my membership with BALPA.
Reason: they only protect the rich captains, but charge us a fortune for their stupid meeting in London.

If you join BAPLA, before to be employed, it will reduce your chance to be hired.

I will rejoin BALPA when I will be a BA captain.:p

Superpilot

23rd September 2005, 11:03

A320rider smells suspiciously of Ronchonner doesn't he?

solo si

23rd September 2005, 11:46

Scroggs,

We all know that nobody enticed us in to becoming professional pilots or spending tens of thousands of pounds on flying training.
With all due respect and by the sounds of it, you are currently employed by an airline and enjoying all the benefits that go with that job. Good for you!

We all have a right to our opinion and speaking not only for myself, but probably for the vast majority of others who have posted on this topic, is that we don't need be told the obvious. There are very few guarantees in life full stop. You mentioned people who have invested in medical training or legal studies etc. I have friends who have done both and all of them found work before even leaving University and yes they had debts, but around the £10 - £15 K mark, slightly different to what we all had to pay. I am sure that there are unemployed doctors and solicitors out there, but we are talking about people who have made massive sacrifices, both financially and personally. ' That was there decision and nobody made them do it' I hear you say. Yes you are right, but imagine if every one woke up one morning and said' that it's i am never to going to improve my self through education or professional study and I am happy staying in this dead end job or signing on for the rest of my life picking up my giro and sitting in the pub. Now we all know that there are people like that and I sometimes i wonder who is better off, but that's another subject. For the people with ambition and a bit of get up and go, we ahve made a big decision and one I hope we don't regret and only time will tell

We have all worked hard for a very difficult qualification and you cannot compare our flying training to a person who has studied for a professional qualification at University, with all due respect.

Scroogs, maybe you read about the guys with thousands of hours of experience on jets, and even they cannot get a job. This whole industry is geared toward the Integrated Oxford/Cabair student who is under 25, with no mortgage, no commitments and can be moulded into that airlines model. That is the kind of people that the airlines want, so maybe there should be age limit on the professional flying training to begin with.

I bet the CAA and all the big training schools would love that...not! How much money would the above listed loose by putting an age limit on training? My guess...millions! They are all very happy to take the money no matter what age you are, but when it comes to recruitment, sorry you are over 35 and you don't have the ability to study for a type rating anymore, because your learning curve is going in the wrong direction. Yeah right!

We don't want sympathy or empathy, but maybe a little encouragement and understanding might go some way, to keeping peoples chins up.

Just my opinion though!

Mr Blue Eyes

23rd September 2005, 11:56

Well said Solo Si

All we ask is a fair crack!

God knows we work our socks off trying to get an interview and yes it is frustrating when you see Daddys little rich kid walk out of OAT with his £1000 pocket money and then get recommended for an interview with less than 200 hrs. Frustrating because I cannot work out why!

Flintstone

23rd September 2005, 12:17

Flintstone=> the people who want to be in my position are mostly outsiders who don't have a clue about aviation.

No. I know of several people who are well aware of aviation but nevertheless would give their eye teeth to be where you are now.

Without wishing to sound like a boring old fart you make your own luck. I've been in your position with the slight difference of having had a family in tow. I did all the crap jobs to pay my bills and keep the family and you know what happened? I got 'lucky'.

After several hundred letters, phone calls and incessant pestering my CV happened to land on the top of the pile when a company needed someone to fill a space on interviews. 'Lucky' I sent it when I did, eh?

As one who went the self improver route I fully sympathise with the comments about those whose way is paid for by rich parents or benefactors. I trained with them and as an instructor I trained them. As an interviewer I confess I paid extra attention to them when they were in front of me looking for a job. Did they want it as badly as the guy who had worked three jobs at once to pay his own way or did they just like the uniform?

dboy. You say you feel like a failure now but how will you feel in five years if you walk away now? Stay or go, neither will be easy but whoever said life is easy?

Re-Heat

23rd September 2005, 12:23

nobody force you to be a doctor, an engineer, or an architect, or a chief.
But how many of these professions are asking you to pay to work? none.
You mean except for the large student loans, years of university study, and constant examinations paid for by employees themselves in retaining curreny experience as a doctor, architect, engineer?

Get real - everyone faces some training costs - it is simply a matter of people being too willing to pay costs themselves that ensures the high training costs in this industry.

Mr Wonka

23rd September 2005, 13:31

Solo Si

Thanks for speaking up and you are right, you do speak for many of us who are stuggling to keep going and keep our sanity. I droped out of BALPA a few years back, due to there lack of interest and when i did need there assistance I found better advice from a lawyer on the high street.

Solo Si I am with you and this is atopic needed saying for a long time. Sadly I dont see much changing in the future, you will always need deeper and deeper pockets. With the news that so many out there are trying to pay for line training, this only makes the situation worse. Are the CAA concerened with this ?

I need the chocolate pump fixed, think the plumber will come and fix it for free ? How about this spot of toothache ? think he fix it for free ?

Boy if only i could get these umpalumpas to come and work for nothiing..... that would be the day !!!!!! ;)

Solo Si , Do you think the press would be interested in this ?

Mr W

:ok:

solo si

23rd September 2005, 14:12

Mr Wonka,

Thanks for your reply. I have been thinking of writing to the Employment/Education secretary. The government want us all to better for ourselves and boost the economy whenever it suits them, so maybe they need to be aware of the current situation.

Personally, I think very few care what we all think. I've even been thinking of starting my own alirline. Why not? It seems the only way of getting a flying job...employ myself!

Start off small and provide a service which we think would be profitable and successful. We've all come this far, why not go the whole hog?

Just my thoughts guys!!

scroggs

24th September 2005, 05:57

You mentioned people who have invested in medical training or legal studies etc. I have friends who have done both and all of them found work before even leaving University and yes they had debts, but around the £10 - £15 K mark, slightly different to what we all had to pay.

The amount of money you pay for your training does not translate into a greater right of employment.

I am sure that there are unemployed doctors and solicitors out there

Yes, there are. Something like 15% of medical graduates (who could reasonably expect to be employed at a time of NHS expansion) were left without a job this summer.

but we are talking about people who have made massive sacrifices, both financially and personally.

I refer you to my first point. The amount you spend is irrelevant to your chances of employment. However, surely the greater investment suggests that you need to arm yourself with all the facts about your job prospects before you spend the money. I am constantly amazed at the number of people who spend £50k or more on pilot training and yet only have a sketchy understanding of the market they're trying to get into.

That was there[sic] decision and nobody made them do it' I hear you say. Yes you are right, but imagine if every one woke up one morning and said' that it's i am never to going to improve my self through education or professional study and I am happy staying in this dead end job or signing on for the rest of my life picking up my giro and sitting in the pub.

Perfectly correct, but, once again, the size of the investment demands that you need to trust to more than luck. Those that prepare best have the best chance of employment - and this is the best employment market for several years.

We have all worked hard for a very difficult qualification and you cannot compare our flying training to a person who has studied for a professional qualification at University, with all due respect.

Yes, I can. The academic standards required of a lawyer or doctor are far higher than those required of a pilot. University study is subsidised by the public; if it were not, medical training (in particular) would be very, very much more expensive than flying training.

Scroggs, maybe you read about the guys with thousands of hours of experience on jets, and even they cannot get a job.

They exist, but something like 400 experienced pilots got jobs in UK in the last year, 70 in Virgin (my company).

This whole industry is geared toward the Integrated Oxford/Cabair student who is under 25, with no mortgage, no commitments and can be moulded into that airlines model. That is the kind of people that the airlines want, so maybe there should be age limit on the professional flying training to begin with.

Actually, there is an age limit for most of the airline-related courses, such as Oxford's APP and CTC's scheme, as there is for the RAF and RN. That in itself should be a clue that starting after that kind of age is more risky, however there are plenty of people who get their first job as late as their 40s. Trouble is, the wannabes who've got jobs don't generally come back and tell you about it, so nearly all the people on this forum are unemployed, which gives the wrong impression of the industry.

We don't want sympathy or empathy, but maybe a little encouragement and understanding might go some way, to keeping peoples chins up.

For sympathy, go to your Mum or your girlfriend/boyfriend. For empthy, you have plenty of people here sharing your circumstances. I only offer you the facts, unvarnished. You want to be told, "There, there, it'll all be alright"; you're in the wrong place.

Scroggs

A320rider

24th September 2005, 08:02

How is the situation for helicopter pilots?

uncle dickie

24th September 2005, 08:19

This industry must be one of the very few where the individual does not have to be selected to commence training with an approved organisation.

To train for medicine, law etc the competition is very tough, and only a fairly low percentage are successful.

Aviation on the other hand [excluding the military] seems to be as much a function of ones cheque book as anything else.

So it is hardly surprising that not everybody who is issued with a blue book ends up in the right hand seat.

scroggs

24th September 2005, 09:28

I'm not sure that medicine or law are more competitive than aviation, but it is true that (at least for school-leavers) there are filters pre-training to ensure that only those likely to succeed are allowed to start training. The miltary, as you suggest, apply more intensive filtering, and still lose a high percentage in training. The integrated schools and CTC also pre-select many of their students in an attempt to ensure that the drop-out rate is reasonably low, and can show fairly high employment statistics to support their approach.

In almost any field, it is possible to pay for speculative training once you are out of the formal education treadmill. Unfortunately, when the only arbiter of whether you can do the training is the size of your wallet, it's inevitable that many of those who pay and complete the course do not subsequently find employment, either through lack of jobs or lack of qualities that employers are looking for. Some are just unlucky, and find themselves perpetually in the wrong place at the wrong time.

It should go without saying: just because you want to do the job doesn't mean that the world will give it to you. Nor do you earn the right to a job as a pilot by getting the licence. It is a competitive business; only the best will succeed. Of course, what defines 'the best' may be contentious, and you may disagree with the criteria - but you aren't the employers.

For helicopter job information, have a look in 'Rotorheads'.

Scroggs

parkfell

24th September 2005, 11:07

What any potential professional pilot must remember is that the FTO will invariably be asked to comment on you by the prospective airline employer. The expensive year plus training course at Oxford, Jerez, or where ever, is in fact a continuous interview process. Blot your copy book during training and you will find most airlines will look elsewhere to fill that vacant right hand seat.

I am not saying suck up to those at the FTO, just be a normal person who demonstrates what is regarded as good CRM skills; this will go a long way. Sure, doing well in groundschool and flying is important - not that you have to be "ace of the base" but just a steady Eddie who can be relied upon.

The FTOs are well versed in what makes an appropriate FO.

Mister Geezer

24th September 2005, 13:00

The CAA nor BALPA will not stand in and fight your case. The more exams and flights tests that are sat means extra revenue for the CAA and the more people that enter flight training could be potential BALPA members.

I would agree with Scroggs when it comes to the financial input has no relationship to your chances of sucess. I come from an integrated background and to be quite honest the extra money my course cost didn't improve my employment chances at the end.

Luck does play a small part however dboy.. do the following.

• Ask yourself have I got more to loose packing it in now than fighting on?
• Look in detail at your CV - is the presentation good enough?
• Get a copy of JP Airline fleets - you can never apply to too many airlines.
• Consider getting a job on the ground at an airport or with an airline. Working in a supermarket will not be a eye catching feature on your CV!
• Get glider towing or get a FI rating and instruct!

I'm 29 years old, still living with my parents, no girlfriend, having a job in the local supermarket etc all for the sake of this bloody little paper which cost me about 75.000eur. I want to start a life!!!

You probably won't have much of a life when you get a airline job either! Especially if you have to relocate somewhere new. Having no partner and living with your parents is nothing to be ashamed about. Your family and friends should and probably do respect you for achieving your licence but you will probably become more depressed if you throw it all away!

When I got my first airline job my life dissapeared as I had to relocate to somewhere where I didn't want to go to and stay in a place where I didn't know anyone. I have since changed companies and I am back home but don't think that the life of a airline pilot is a bed or roses. The flying is fantastic but if you are based somewhere where you don't want to be based - it is terrible. Talk to your folks and friends and get them to talk it over with you! Don't give up!;)

ATP_Al

24th September 2005, 15:03

I am a low hours pilot looking for his first proper job now and I can't say I agree with some of the arguments in this thread. It isn't easy, but no-one ever said it would be!

However, things do start to happen if you get off your ass and try to make your own luck. After I got my PPL I towed gliders to build hours. Once I had my frozen ATPL this experience opened the door to a parachute dropping job on a twin. Now I have almost 700hrs and have had some very positive responses from air taxi companies. Once you have a flying job, even if it's on a piston single, you'll find it a lot easier to get another one. Doors will start to open and you'll be climbing the ladder. Similiar things have happened to friends in Ops jobs.

In defence of BALPA, Maggie Pecnik has been extremely helpful whenever I have had an airline interview or assessment. She has provided me with company information and detailed resumes of interviews from previous candidates. This advice has helped me get through to the final stage interview for a jet charter airline and into the holding pool for a regional turboprop airline. This system will only work if people play their part and feed information back into the system, as I have tried to do as much as possible.

Good luck,

Al

Mister Geezer

24th September 2005, 16:03

Most of the information you get from BALPA will be available on this website... and PPRuNe is free. I keep on asking myself if the BALPA subscription is worth it!

Flintstone

24th September 2005, 20:35

Mr Wonka For what it's worth I sympathise, I really do. I know that won't help you find a job though.

You are right about needing deeper pockets but here's something to consider. It all got worse the day someone said "I'll pay for my type rating". Not sure if that was before or after the bastard who offered to work for nothing.

In my opinion bonding is the fairest method but paying for ratings and working for free are the root of all evil. If I had to chose one as a reason for going to hell it would be the latter.

ATP_Al You are dead right. Why do some people believe they have the inalienable right to go straight to a heavy jet as their first job?

I can't help thinking that some people are unemployed because they refuse to lower their sights. I would value the (more rounded) experience of someone who had worked their way up in the manner you describe over that of someone who has had their way greased to the right hand seat of an airliner any day.

prob30

24th September 2005, 22:21

I am admitedly a little out of touch on how the market stands for 200 hour guys but could someone clarify something for me?

Which airlines 'make' you pay for your type rating?
Which airlines ask you to work for nothing?

EZY, Jet2, Thompsonfly, Flybe, Aurigny, BA, Monarch, First choice, Bmi baby all spring to mind as those that dont... So who do?

I fail to see how one can claim that this industry is now asking you to buy a type rating and work for nothing.

your sincerely,

Cabair integrated graduate not that long afer 9/11 when there were nooooo jobs around ,200 hours, got a job within 6 months on TP, now on Jet, devoid of silver spoon or daddys deep pockets, and recently remortgaged the house - again, driving a ten year old car and finding it a bit of an insult that you blokes reckon its only rich kids that get on at this game. It's luck and you can make your own luck - if you are lucky!

Mister Geezer

24th September 2005, 23:47

There is paying for your rating and paying for your rating and getting your money back over a period. The latter practice seems to be more acceptable but it is one that still requires money up front.

EZY - TRSS reduced salary means that you are indirectly paying for your rating but that is picking hairs and no money is needed unless you wish to pay for it up front and start on a full direct entry salary.

Jet2 - Money needed up front but you get it back over time.

Flybe - No money for the type rating but some of the Oxford folks are needing to stump up a couple of grand before they join.

Aurigny - Don't know but think the traditional bond still applies.

Thompsonfly, BA, Monarch, First choice & Bmi baby all seem to do things the traditional way.

Interesting to note that bmi (mainline) have tied up a deal or Oxford were trying to tie up a deal with GECAT. You paid for your own Airbus rating and worked for bmi. Might of been on a temporary contract but don't quote me on that.

Mr Wonka

25th September 2005, 08:08

Hello Flintstone,

It all got worse the day someone said "I'll pay for my type rating". Not sure if that was before or after the bastard who offered to work for nothing.

Your right and I agree, I dont need to even consider it for a moment. I remeber the day a chap who started working for free, his excuse, " he needed the experiance " the owner couldnt believe his luck.

What owner wouldnt give there right arm for a work force working for free ?

What is sad this individual is a civil servant and plenty of days off per month others in the company needed what pay they recieved to help pay the bills,it was there only source of income.

I think this has erroded away the professionalism in this industry and the dog eat dog mentallity has only accelerated the problem. Paying for a type rating is one thing but working for free AND paying for line training ?

I think it is an employers maket at the moment, and Yes dont join Balpa try ppjn.com and google folks !

Flintstone, is it me? am I seeing this the wrong way? perhaps we need to rise to the challenge ?

Answers on the back of a giant Wonker bar please !

:D

Mr W

beamer

25th September 2005, 10:20

Sometimes I think that some of the respondents to these threads have a very 'rosy' impression of what the lifestyle of an airline pilot actually consists of these days. Whilst I admire the dedication of all of you I do think that you should explore your contacts for a real understanding of the profession - not trying to be a pain but is it really what you want ?

Mr Blue Eyes

25th September 2005, 10:47

Agree!!

If anyone is doing this for the following reasons;
1. Meet women
2. Expect a glam lifestyle
3. Get well paid
4. Have an unstressful life
5. Have a respected job

Then, you are in the wrong industry! You need to be a Professional Footballer or Peter Stringfellow!

Craggenmore

25th September 2005, 11:17

Mr Blue Eyes,

Just to cheer you up...:p
If anyone is doing this for the following reasons;
1. Meet women
2. Expect a glam lifestyle
3. Get well paid
4. Have an unstressful life
5. Have a respected job
I have the basic fATPL (CPL/IR) which

1. put me in an environment where I met my G/f who flies commercially.
2. who most certainly has a glam lifestyle (well at least the trips that I have accompanied her on.)
3. who gets very well paid.
4. who does have stress (mainly time zone changes) but I would not say stressfull as you intended it to mean.
5. and who is truly respected by all who meet her and what she does. The questions and fascination directed at her by joe public never ceases to amaze me.

What I'm trying to say is that flying can still be all of the above (well, and is!)

Try not to get too down about certain 'Daily Mail' pages of the Wanabee forum (depressing, doom mongering and sensational). This place can have a habit of diluting why we all got into this game in the first place. Keep sight of the finish line.

Personally, I'm following the FI route as I like teaching, I like Bug smashers and I'm flying :)

:ok:

Flintstone

25th September 2005, 12:21

prob30 Which airlines ask you to work for nothing?

Who says it has to be an airline? I didn't. As an old, bold pilot once told me the most dangerous thing in aviation is an untested assumption. I was thinking further down the scale where people will fly for free to gain hours. Wonka has summarised that nicely so I won't repeat it.

Some airlines do make you pay for your rating, Ryaniar for example. Hell, they'd even have you pay for the differences course because they bought new aircraft.

Luke SkyToddler

25th September 2005, 12:30

Harden up you sad gits. Every flying school in Britain is screaming out for instructors. Yes it's poorly paid, poorly respected work in poxy single engine aircraft. Yes just about every single commercial pilot on earth in every country on earth except for two or three European ones, has had to do exactly that (or glider towing or para dropping or sh!tty night freight Aztec runs or whatever) in order to get their first 1000 - 2000 hours to actually make themselves attractive to the airlines.

Seriously. As sure as night follows day, if you go instructing, persevere with it, get those hours in the logbook and don't have the social grace of a baboon, you WILL get that airline job eventually.

That's not even the half of it, how many of you have looked into buggering off to Africa to get some bush flying time for example? And when I say 'looked into it' I don't mean read a few posts of people bitching about it on PPRUNE or even posted a couple of CVs to random addresses in Africa, I mean actually gone out there, slept in a tent or !!!!ty backpackers hostel for 3 months, kissed ass and swept hangar floors and bought pints for chief pilots and waited for a job to come up? Dozens of Kiwis, Aussies, South Africans, Canadians, Americans and even the occasional enterprising European person do that each year, not just in Africa but in places like New Guinea, South America, the Carribbean, Aussie northern territory etc. The ones who actually show a bit of commitment and aren't socially inept freaks, not many of them come away empty handed. Not many of them post on here either because they're too busy having a great old time and logging every hour that God sends for a year or two before coming home with a couple thousand hours and getting a proper job.

I filled in a space in my own logbook by going microlight instructing for a while when nothing else was happening, didn't know sweet F.A. about microlights but had the CPL licence and was willing to buy a rating and get into it (and when I say 'buy a rating' on microlights I am referring to something that took about an hour-and-a-half to convert onto one sunny afternoon, at the princely sum of around £30 per hour). I only got about 50 or 80 hours on the things but it kept me current until the next money paying position came along.

Last time I was out in the Caribbean in the Turks and Caicos Islands I met a 200 hour bloke who'd actually gone out there to hang around and look for a job and found one bloody quickly, doing para dropping, tax free at $US30 in the hand per flight, half a dozen flights a day means he's actually earning more than a lot of airline pilots, he's got no intention of coming back home to the UK and flogging around in a turboprop any time soon!

The point is they got out there and did something about it as opposed to sat around and blamed others for all their problems. There are LOADS of jobs out there if you have the commitment and want to make the effort to go and find them. If you can't make that effort then I don't feel sorry for you types who spend all day sitting around and blaming BALPA, and experienced airline pilots who don't look out for the wannabes, and sort out jobs for their own kids, and rich gits who can afford integrated courses and type ratings, and Johnny foreigners stealing English jobs, and generally blaming everyone under the sun except themselves for their own unemployment.

Get off your arses, think outside the square of the great flock of wannabe sheep, who think that sitting at home getting uncurrent and firing off cvs to the same 30 or 40 UK jet and turboprop operators is going to produce results, because it's NOT. It IS a lottery and it's a lottery that's cruelly stacked against you IF that's all the initiative you are prepared to show in order to get that first job.

Everyone of course has an excuse as to why they can't do these things, got a house to look after, got steady income in non-flying-related-job while they wait for the golden airline phone call and can't just abandon the job, got wife and kids that aren't interested, can't afford to live on an instructor's wage (can you afford NOT to, is more to the point??!!) OK fair enough it's your call but be under no illusions that someone who's younger, less tied down, and basically wants the job more than you, is going to be the one who makes those sacrifices and ultimately reaps the rewards. Tough but true.

prob30

25th September 2005, 13:29

So from Mister Geezers post can we safely begin to assume that "this industry" ie aviation as a whole, as some one called it is not asking people to pay for their training and work for nothing???

Sorry to dissapoint but I don't think fleet street will be tripping over this one!

It's not just the airline industry where things are changing. In a previous life we all stuck together and agreed we wouldn't pay out, but in the end one bloke did so we all had to follow, that particular industry changed. £20K out of pocket I was. But i kept working and those that didn't INVEST (not the same as prostituting themselves) got a ahead. It paid for my ppl. As long as i have been investing I have been progressing.

I used to read and take note of especially WWW's posts at length during late 2001/2 and there were noooooo jobs going apart form ryanair and ctc. There was a hell of a lot less whinging going on then compared to now when in recent times it has never been so good.

flybe in serious trouble to find crews, ezy the same, people moving to virgin and ba and emirates having a knock on down the food chain. People thinking that 9/11 is gone and maybe flying is a safer bet than a few years a go and doing ATPL courses, which need instructors.

WWW do you agree or has something changed in the few years since I have been away from this particular forum?!

This becomes really quite exasperating!

aviate2day

25th September 2005, 14:58

Scroggs and Luke

Couldn't agree more guys been treading the boards here for a few years now.

So for you chaps who think its impossible here's a quick resumee.

Worked 10 years in manufacturing. Had done some flying, Flying scholarship and UAS and had a PPL. (The First Gulf war and the end of the Cold war knack the market at that time.)
Decided around time of 9/11 that I wanted to pursue my dream, such timing!
Did about 6 months research into training options. This resulted in me having the fATPL in Sept 03 via the modular route. Guess what no jobs for guys with 200hours. Whether you were Int or Mod graduates. I had set my sites on the CTC ATP scheme, but as there were no jobs the hold pool was full.

So I had a choice lick my wound and complain about the market or do something. I went and got an FI rating so I could keep building my hours and learn more about the old flying game. I got a job with the school I trained with. This saw me building hours all last year and having a great time, although yes the pay is dreadful, so I had some other income streams in place. Wife and family still needed to eat.

This meant that my experience was building while the job market was recovering and making my cv that bit more interesting than the next guy with 200 hours and no commercial experience.

In Autumn last year I heard Jet2 were recruiting, but guess what they wanted Integrated grads or 300 hours EFIS. Where did that leave me with my hard earned 800 hours. Well life isn't fair so you've just got to get on.

I went to the BALPA conference and like many others heard of the imminent upturn to come. Where was it for me though, these were mostly jet ops and how would that help me? Well it did help me because just before Christmas I got a call from 2 regional turbo-prop outfits for interview and over the Christmas holidays was in receipt of 2 job offers. Both with quick start dates. These opportunities opened up due to the jet guys recruiting again. The actual selection for interview and getting my cv noticed probabley came down to lots of networking and making sure the right people new who I was. Thus when someone screamed "We need more PILOTS" my name was close to hand.

After I had started my type rating I also received 2 further calls for interview, a turbine op and a regional jet op. Thus I have had the pleasure of flying a regional TP for the last 7 months.

However it doesn't end there as I have a new job and will be starting the type rating for the B737 in November.

Some advice I have been given over the last couple years;
-Never give up.
-There are many different career options in this industry, aim for the one which suits you and get there as soon as possible.
-Do all you can to improve your CV.
-Preparation is everything, you don't want to blow the only chance you may get. Remember your Scout's moto!!
-Network, Network, Network.

On the last point, I knew how important this was and it was emphasised by a good friend of mine. At the time, about 2 years ago, I thought how do I do that. I currently have friends or just acquaintance in over a dozen airlines!

For those of you who bitch about age I'm 34 and a mate recently started with our lot at 42.

Thats how I got here today, there have been numerous setbecks, but that's life. A friend who did the FI course with me got thompsonfly with only 250 hours, I was one year too old. I didn't get selected for the CTC ATP scheme but a friend did and he got BA citiexpress. Another guy got BMI Regional with only 250 hours and another instructor mate got FRA. But I looked on all this in a positive light as it showed to me that the market was moving. In recent months many of my old instructor colleagues have also had interviews.

No doubt this post will be subject to the usual petty flaming, well its not meant for you. :}

To the guys who find it spurs them on.:ok:

P.S. If things get too much pull out the old Chumbawumba - Tubthumper :cool:

jamestkirk

25th September 2005, 15:43

I totally agree with everyone and am in the same position. 30+, 700 hours instructing, told to Fox Oscar by everuone etc.

Can people stop saying that 'you make your own luck'. By definition it's a contadiction in terms. And not very motivating to those of us who have not landed a job yet.

Someone wrote before; 'when do you decide to pack in in as you may have less to lose now than carrying on'. How many of us have thought about that!

prob30

25th September 2005, 15:50

I don't agree, you really can make your own luck.

Luck is when someone screams "pilots" and your cv is on the pile and you spoke to the chief pilot 2 weeks ago and he remembers you and calls you.

Luck is asking an acquaintance to show you round the airline offices. When he checks if it is ok with the boss, the boss says tell him to put a suit on and we will call it an interview.

Happened to me. Made my own luck.

Mister Geezer

25th September 2005, 16:32

So from Mister Geezers post can we safely begin to assume that "this industry" i.e. aviation as a whole, as some one called it is not asking people to pay for their training and work for nothing???

I didn't mention the airlines at the ar5e end of the spectrum - to put it politely! The airlines that I mentioned in my previous post actually pay a reasonable salary to their crews. I could have mentioned numerous 'cowboy' Eastern European low cost operators that expect you to pay for your services.

I am a great believer that you can make your own luck. I wouldn't of got my first airline job if I had not decided to get a FI rating and create some luck for myself but that is another story! The ball is in your court!!

Someone wrote before; 'when do you decide to pack in as you may have less to lose now than carrying on'. How many of us have thought about that!

If I had to take that decision then my pride and self esteem would take a big knock simply because I would of put in a lot of time and effort and only to admit defeat - not worth it when you think about it.... is it?

scroggs

25th September 2005, 16:59

Making your own luck is exactly what Luke's and Aviate's posts are about. As Luke says, if your preference is to sit at home reading Pprune, sending off CVs and complaining that airlines aren't tripping over each other to get to your front door, you might want to rethink your strategy.

No one owes you a living. You have to go and earn it - in every sense of the word. And that doesn't mean just passing your ATPLs and giving OAT (or whoever) £50K.

Scroggs

Mister Geezer

25th September 2005, 18:14

I have to echo what Scroggs has said. Being pro-active and being lucky go hand in hand. That is speaking from experience. Interesting to note that those who fly commercially all have the same point of view. Food for thought?

aviate2day

The penny has just dropped, you must be the LBA F/O that I heard is leaving after joining not long ago!

aviate2day

25th September 2005, 19:18

Mister Geezer

Wasn't planning on moving so quick but when the offer of a Jet job came up, only 25 mins from home I couldn't really say no, despite bond etc.

Are you at INV later this week? pm me if so

nomercy

25th September 2005, 20:34

It is very true that luck can be a major factor in getting a job but i think that reflects badly on recruitment policies of some companies. I was involved in recruitment as a manager in another transport industry and we gathered hundreds of speculative applications for a popular job. All of these applications were sorted and filed and we had a proper system in place for considering each one. This did take time - but we considered it to be very important and time was always found.

" I have a pile of 200 c.v's on my desk and 20 coming in each day"is a tale i have heard a few times.

It is unfortunate that someone who has been applying with enthusiasm for years can lose out on a "lucky dip".

Nomercy.

Moffman

25th September 2005, 22:50

Firstly...i totally agree with most of the posts that no matter how many rejections or setbacks you have..you should not give up that easily. Persistence and commitment is essential if you really want to make it as a commercial pilot..as we all know im sure!!

Secondly..to all those making rediculous posts regarding gaining your ATPL..I laugh at those remarks stating that if you have the money, you can buy your way into a right hand seat...what a load of c**p!!!!Yes money is a major factor if you want to live the dream..and if you have the funds then a mediocre ATPL can be gained by pretty much anyone...but those of you are im sure are aware that a license doesnt get you a job..airline selection does!!I am fortunate to be going through CTC and surprisingly...i dont have 60000 quid to cough up..i have a gigantic bank loan to do that..so the rich daddy syndrome doesnt apply here!What i hopefully have are the raw skills, aptitude and motivation to become a airline pilot..confirmed by professional pilot assessors..not just a hunch that i feel i would be the dogs b******S..which it sounds like..some of the posters on this thread feel they have..not naming names!

I would suggest that anyone who is eligible for a organisation like CTC..to go for it..as they dont care about when you can hand over your cash..but more importantly..they only care about whether you are the right stuff or not..and the reward being the job at the end of the line!!

Setbacks and rejections are unfortunately the name of the game in this industry..but the way to approach it is not to whinge..or accuse successful applicants that daddy has paid the way for them!!

Cheers

supercruise593

26th September 2005, 02:46

I have to agree with Moffman and the other guys who support this line. This is by far one of the most difficult jobs a person can attain (especially if you're looking to work at the high end of the market). Competition is fierce and I admire anyone who is prepared to put in the vast financial resource required to even have a chance.

At the end of the day though, money gets you licences, not jobs! It’s a bull!!!!! philosophy to say that the industry is going back to the day when the guys from wealthy backgrounds are the only people coming through.. I’ve always wanted to do this job and wasn’t one of the fortunate few born into money. I would argue that this probably put me in a better position as I had to think very carefully about how I could give myself the best chance of success. An angry bank manager banging down the door to get his 60K back off a penniless whinger is the last thing one needs.

‘Airline placement is the key’. Yes I am also training in NZ with CTC. :} Yes I will have paid approx 100K back to the bank by the time I end my 7th year of service with an airline. :{ But, it’s all academic as the financial set up with the airline will support this. Nothing is guaranteed but all I really have to worry about for the next year or so is working my arse off. The company does the rest. So the argument would then say that even for the guys with spoons up the jacksy, an airline placement setup such as this would probably be the most viable financial option.

For the guys that say 'yes I’ve tried all that and didn’t get through'. I’d sympathise with some of you as ridiculously hair splitting decisions may have been the reason why. However, ‘determination’ sees one through. I had plenty of rejection before CTC and had I not made it, I would have asked myself serious questions as to what next? :confused: Maybe some of the stories outlined in this thread, maybe even curtains. Eggs have to be kept in several baskets.

For the people who really want this job and are doing everything they possibly can to get it to the extent of calculated risk. I wish you all the best & hope you make it.

I’m not pitching for CTC but 'common sense... simple common sense' (as a famous rapper from The Streets so eloquently put it)...

If any readers want in and haven't picked up on this particular route then do some research! :ok:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1960811#post1960811

A320rider

26th September 2005, 11:11

filed bankruptcy today, yeah, I am a free man today.

what is the best bank in london for a type rating? :p

Flying Mechanic

26th September 2005, 14:12

All you wanabees, take head of the wise words of Luke Sky Toddler.......its the winning formula......I did exactly that in 1999...and 6 years later with just under 4000 hours I am still on the road. I went out into the BIG WIDE WORLD with my log book/backpack/Headset and got my first flying job, I knocked on many doors. My first job was flying a Cessna 182, and living in converted container 8 degrees from the equator........and now in the middle east on a turbo prop, whose knows where the next stop will be. Get out there, shake peoples hands and see the world and get some real flying under your belt.....and have some fun and exposure to other cultures.
Cheers FM

Fair_Weather_Flyer

26th September 2005, 16:16

When I finished my degree, it took me several months to find a job. In that time I worked for a pie manufacturer packing pork pies into boxes. Everyday one of my fellow employees would comment on what a waste of time my degree was and that I would never find any kind of other work. After a while I almost believed them; then one day the phone rang and I was told that I was accepted onto a decent graduate training scheme. That job lasted for a year or so until I was made redundant. Again, people were repeating the same lines, "no jobs" and "all a waste of time." Two months later I was in a working in a much better paid job and by the time I was out of work again I had climbed a fair way up the corporate ladder and getting an ever better paid and more responsible job was fairly easy. What of the people I worked with in the pie factory who told me there was no hope? Most hated their job, did nothing about it and are still packing boxes at the same factory.

The problem in Europe that prevents most low houred pilots from helping themselves is the possibilty of the low hour B737 job. As an instructor I very often train European pilots getting themselves current on multi engine aircraft. Most tell me that they have had the ratings for years and there are are no jobs in Europe. I open up the logbook and find that they have 200 odd hours and have not flown for six months. I ask why they don't try instructing and they tend to give a reply along the lines of "Ryanair and Jet2 are recruiting and if that doesn't work out I'll go and fly jets in China." These are unrealistic expectations and if the only flying job that will work for them is the shiny new jet, they will continue to be dissapointed. They remind me of the hapless people back in the pie factory doing very little to help themselves.

dboy

26th September 2005, 17:18

Hello everybody,

A few notes:

Mister Geezer said "Working in a supermarket will not be a eye catching feature on your CV!"

Well perhaps not, and the job really s*cks, but with that money i can fly 4 a 5 hours ifr every month. Ok it's not much but it keeps me current. Today i had to renew my me/ir and it went good because of this monthly training. All paid by this stupid job.

I really want to do more in aviation but the problem is "what". Instruction is not interesting anymore. Everybody is following an instruction course and now the result is there are too many of them. I even considered to do freelance work. But those companies (biz jet) demand as well you pay for the type.

Today i got again letters from companies but i think you all know the result.

Well the same !!!! as usual.

best regards

Mister Geezer

26th September 2005, 22:12

Instruction is not interesting anymore.

So that means that you have instructed at some point. If that is the case then keep current but I suspect that this is your point of view from someone who has not instructed! I don't see how it could not be interesting anymore - do you see yourself as being above the 'teaching people to fly little planes' stage? My instructor rating is the most useful thing I have done in my limited flying career.

Everybody is following an instruction course and now the result is there are too many of them

Not sure what it is like in Belgium but in the UK there is a constant demand for instructors. If you are willing to move to where the work is then you will find something in a short space of time but the way things are, finding an instructing job near to where you stay might not be as difficult as you think. Once again that is the picture for the UK but not sure what it is like in Belgium.

In the past the main reason people instructed is that they had to since in the days of the 700 hour self improver route - there was no other choice. The JAA arrived on our doorstep and all of a sudden the steady flow of self-improvers stop since the new modular route doesn't need experience to be built up like it was under the traditional system with the CAA. So in other words this leaves us in a situation where people are only getting FI ratings because they want to as opposed to having to get a FI rating as used to be the case. I have noticed that Fi numbers have reduced (certainly where I stay) and jobs are available.

Getting a FI rating is a sign of being assertive and taking a step towards creating a bit of luck for yourself in getting that first job. Consider it carefully and personally speaking I can say that it was the best move I ever made. You might not think that you will learn anything but I can assure you that you are wrong! whenever I did my training and left Oxford with first time passes in my flying - I was ashamed at how little I knew and how basic my flying was. The instructor course changed that and when I started my first airline job the extra confidence and sharper flying abilities were clearly seen on the sim course. The TRE said - that was your instructor background showing there! ;)

Edited to say that I as well as your self have got many rejection letters. I have got responses from companies from all over the world! However sitting at home and getting down about it is not going to improve your situation. Be positive and think what you are going to do to make yourself more attractive to the airlines that you are targeting.

Make sure you are targeting airlines at the bottom of the ladder as well. Focusing on jet airlines only might bring you luck but on the other hand being too picky is being foolish and you want to create as many chances as you can.

If I were you I would consider ditching your supermarket job (if you can) and get a job in aviation. Networking is a big help in finding that first flight deck job. You are far more likely to bump into a Flight Ops Director who is recruiting in an aviation-based job than seeing him when he is getting his bread and milk in the supermarket. It is good to see that you are keeping current, which is a fundamental feature in getting that first job. If you can get a aviation based ground job with the same money than your supermarket job - then what have you got to loose? Nothing and everything (potentially) to gain!

avrodamo

27th September 2005, 08:43

Getting the FI rating was the best money i have spent. Yes it keeps you current, and builds the hours, but its great taking someone who can't fly and then a few hours later having them fly you. I don't know, but for me thats a great deal of satisfaction, and you gain very good experience from it all. OK...the money is not brilliant, but as a stepping stone its excellent. You also start to realise how small the aviation world is. There is always someone you speak to, who knows someone you know too! This really helps the networking. As for there being too many instructors....well i know lots of schools crying out for instructors, because they are losing many of them to the airlines.
Its horses for courses. Ask 50 pilots whats the best way to get an airline job, and you will get 50 different answers. Its all down to your action plan, and the decisions you make. Are they realsitic? Can you speculate and see beyond it? Can you keep yourself motivated when it seems its all going pear shaped? I have lots of irons in the fire. Nothing has come of it as yet, but its getting there. You have got to network. Ask yourself this. If you had to choose someone for a job out of 200 applicants, how would you make that choice? I would think it would be a pretty tough call to make the right decision. Think how much easier it would be, if someone you knew, and respected came in and said "I know them. You won't go wrong there. Give them a chance". Its human nature, they have helped you in a very big way make the decision. I know many people who have very good flying careers and have got them by this simple method. We are all human. Its the one thing all of us have in common, so use it to your advantage. It is cut throat, but there are some genuine people out there, who do want to help.....but you do have to help yourself.

Addy

27th September 2005, 11:58

Stories telling people to go instruct or bushfly in africa or where ever would be very true, if there wouldn't be any 200 guys around who DO get airline jobs. just because they went to the right school and did the so called 'perfect' integrated course in that so called 'perfect' school.
just that 1 simple fact blows away stories telling people they HAVE to earn an airline job.
I myself have been instructing, but quit the job after my visa expired.
Also nobody cares whether you have 800, 1000 or 10.000 hours SEP, in fact after a while it'll only work against you because you have 'too much SEP experience' :mad:

ah well, I'm only 22 years old so I still have about 5 years to get myself into an airline. hopefully times will have changed by then as I do not and will not have the money to fund my own type rating, and I am not prepared to beg or even pay a bond (do you believe some operators even ask you to pay money to fly their king air????) for a job on a light turboprop or whatever. And I have done my time as a flight instructor and as I said, I believe I already have enough C-152 time by now....

only mistake I made is that I either did not attend the integrated OAT course or that I do not have a rich daddy

dboy

27th September 2005, 12:20

hello,

Well, it is like Addy says. I don't think airliners are interested in your cessna hours.

Mister geezer said :"do you see yourself as being above the 'teaching people to fly little planes' stage?" NO i don't. But i don't have the qualities to be a good instructor. For me a good instructor is someone who can explain something difficult in a easy way to understand. And this is a skill you are born with or not. Well i certainly know i don't have this quality. Besides i have friends who followed a FI course and even for them it is very difficult to find a job.

I surely understand that networking is important. That'swhy i'm trying to find a freelance job or something else in aviation and flying every month a couple of ifr hours.

grtz

antipodean

27th September 2005, 13:28

Actually a few thousand hours of SEP generally mean you have good stick and rudder skills, it will definitely put you ahead of the hundreds of 200 hour pilots looking for work. Yes there are a few lucky pilots that get jobs with low hours but a large percentage of airline pilots have some GA background. If you expect an airline job with the bare minimum hours you are most likely going to be disappointed and as has been mentioned by scroggs the fact that you have gained a CPL does not mean you are owed an airline job. The hard work towards getting that first airline job really only just starts after gaining the qualification, you might well end up in a crappy third world country getting paid very little but that will probably be the most enjoyable flying you ever do. dboy if you consider an instructing job beneath you and are holding out to fly a bizjet it is no surprise you end up bitching about the lack of opportunties.

rjay259

27th September 2005, 14:51

Hey all,

What everyone is saying is true, but i feel that you have to go out and find what you are looking for.

They should rename this forum the bi£ching forum. Cause thats all most seem to do.

Everyone should be here to help not hinder. It would be very easy to give everyone bad news but try giving good news. That way I am sure that we would all feel better about ourselves and would still have the same drive and ambition to continue our dreams.

I feel that everyone should stay current, SEP/MEP or whatever there will be that one day that someone will call asking you to do a sim ride.

By the way I had heard again that First Choice are going to be advertising soon for flight deck jobs.

Good luck to all,

259

Flintstone

28th September 2005, 19:45

I don't think airliners are interested in your cessna hours.

I wouldn't be so sure. Speaking as one who has sat the other side of the interview table I can tell you that some are.

Similarly someone who got off their arse and actually worked, even in a supermarket, gets more respect from me than those who loaf around turning their nose up at jobs that are beneath them. It speaks volumes.

scroggs

28th September 2005, 21:31

There are certainly plenty of lucky wannabes who do get into a B737 flightdeck with only 200 or 300 hours - at the moment. Between 2001 and 2004, there were very few, and historically they are not in the majority. It's quite likely that they will become the majority in the future, as the major airlines like the idea of a dependable pilot 'product' being delivered to them from the schools.

However, there remain plenty of airlines that either don't want or don't need the graduates of these schemes, and prefer to look elsewhere. Most of the airlines that do take these graduates also recruit direct-entry pilots from other backgrounds. Some airlines do feel that you can have too much single-engine or instructing time, but it's by no means a universal thing.

The point is that there are still many different routes into airline flying. The OAT/CTC method hasn't monopolised the game yet!

Scroggs

DB777

30th September 2005, 08:30

I think this is the most deperssed I have ever been reading threads on this site! :( :suspect: :(

beamer

30th September 2005, 08:52

Stick and Rudder skills eh - I must remember that next time I do my aeros sequence in my Boeing halfway across the Atlantic !

Said in jest chaps - don't go over the top - plenty of jobs out there so keep the cv's rolling and go and chase CP's on spec - you never know, a chat may turn into an interview !

jetrider757

30th September 2005, 23:40

dboy

Rather a lot for you to mull over here and I doubt it's really helped. A few have spoken wise words though, with the advice 'don't give up'.

A section of rain forest was cut down to provide me with rejection letters. I only ever had one interview but got the job on a medium sized jet - mind you I flew it for free for 8 months and that was 10 yrs ago ! That sickened me at the time but now I'm in the LHS of a 757 and life aint so bad. I instructed for 4yrs and earned jack s**t, so what was another 8 months.

When I think of all the friends who struggled for long periods of time, I can tell you that it came good for all of them in the end - and that's the truth. This profession is like no other and only those of us in it know how difficult it is. There is this sickening element with rich daddies who do appear to be a fly in the ointment but s*d them. Stick your nose into every company, from smallest to largest and just when you don't expect it, it happens.

I was in your position. Hang in there my friend !

scallaghan

1st October 2005, 10:04

Hi Guys,

Just reading through the list of comments.

I am working in I.T at the moment on a good salary and have JAA PPL. Doing all the hour building myself and about to do a brush up course with a training provider here in the for my mod 1 exams.

Also have an opportunity to go to a pilot sponsorship interview but have had to pay them to interview me at stage 1. Very bad.

So my question is whether its worth it all, should I bankrupt myself :p or perhaps do an IMC rating and keep it at that.

Many of you have spent hours training, I have the modular for exam study hard and would rather do a full time ground school course. However at this stage I am not going to make that commitment, I want to keep the get out of jail card for the moment.

The things I have reaslied over the last year while studying the ground school from this forum. Is that terms and conditions of employment seem poor to what they use to be and things like pensions not being as great.

I am 25 years old and I am amazed at how many people go for the 55K plus bank loans and then are at the mercy of the employers and their accountants.

From my point of view I am still not convinced but am still going to complete my ground school either part time or full time. Then I need to make the decision to contiune. If I dont, do a CPL and instructor rating to teach for a hobby.

These companies have it great, pay for your own training and then another loan for a type rating in your name.

Some how the employers need to pay for the training or at least more of it.

This will not change with students completing training and certain larger training providers selling them the story of getting into a nice jet airliner, when in reality it appears that they will be lucky to get a job on a turbo prop and have to start paying back those loans.

For the situation to change, their needs to be a lack of pilots for the employers. I cannot see that happen with some people desperite to get those loans paid back.

I hope the situation improves in the next few years, and I thought I.T was bad :)

Cheers

Sean

Mr Wonka

1st October 2005, 11:55

stay where you are and invest your time and money in your social life and IT.

:ok:

Mr W

A320rider

1st October 2005, 18:30

yeah, the situation will improve!!

another terrorist attack tomorrow, and I bet that airlines will ask you another cheque from your bank account, if they dont shut down their operations.

so noone can say how it will be tomoorow, or after tomorrow?

you have 2 choices:

#1:for the optimist, dreamer, (son of rich!!!) take the risk and invest time and money, at least you can dream to fly a big jet.

#2 :pessimist: keep your money, do a good job like in IT, get a wife, kids and a house and enjoy your life . And if the aviation market pick up, go to # 1....

all I can say: it can take years before to get a paid job on a plane and you will struggle a lot, and you can finish in deep ****( like me).

and even if you get a flying job, it will tke years before to see your money back, with the risk to lose your job due to a bankroute,...

stay away from aviation!

I go back in IT, at least I will have some moeny at the end of the month, and I will not have to lick ass from employers!

at least I do not pay tax for now!...

good luck to every dreamer!!!!:ugh:

FLCH

3rd October 2005, 15:50

Then give up A320rider !!
I assure you that you will always regret giving up your dream. There's plenty of people on these boards who have stuck in there and not given up. It took me 6 years to get my first paying job, 4 years more to get on at a commuter airline another 2 years to get on at an airline (a bankrupt one at that) another 7 years as a Flight Engineer (where I didn't even get close to flying a jetliner) and now capping off nearly 11 years as a First Officer, I finally get to upgrade to Captain after all this time. I have experienced just like yourself, rejection after rejection, getting your hopes dashed time and time again, but you simply cannot give up ! If you do choose to give up then that is your choice, but I would draw an analogy with you flying a stricken airliner with a bus load of people in the back ....do you keep trying till you hit the ground (successfully or otherwise) or do you throw your hands up and say **** it and give up ? There are no guarantees in life...not for any of us, but we all must strive to go in a particular direction. The very best of luck whichever way you go....